Question for all monster keepers !

[wyz]

Hi guys, I have no experience with super large snake and I know I'll never have one since they really get too large for the space I can give them but I sure love to see them on pics.

My question is...

What would happen if someone was to feed a burm (only an example) 1 jumper mouse a week like we would do with a cornsnake of the same size. If someone was to do that... this snake would not get big, so he wouldn't need to be fed larger preys... would he ?

I know that the needs of this snake is to get large preys in order to grow to its natural size, but what if he is treated from birth like if he was a normal snake and not a future giant ?

Would he die ?
Would he live and simply be smaller ?
Would he grow to is normal size but it would take a century ? :)

Do worry, I'm not going to try growing a mini-burm,,

I'm just curious since I see that with my baby snakes their growth is directly linked with the size and quantity of the preys I give them.

They seem to digest food in a way that nothing is lost and all that is absorbed by their system goes directly to their growth.

Thanks for your future answers..

WYZ

[Hamster of Borg]

Underfeeding a snake will lead to low weight, smaller size, generally poor health, and usually a very upset and always hungry animal. They're still going to grow, even if you withhold food. Just at a slower rate. Eventually, if the nutritional intake is not adequate to accomodate its growth and energy expenditure, it will die. If the nutritional intake is brought to normal levels for a time, their growth rate usually picks up and they recover. I've seen a few burms be relatively small for 2-3 years and then suddenly have a growth spurt. Especially after a significant nutritional improvement - like switching to rabbits or something. Needless to say, feeding less than what your snake needs accomplishes nothing but making your snake hungry all the time. An always hungry animal is really nothing but dangerous at 8... 10... 12 feet or more. At the same token, feeding more than necessary to speed up growth is just as dangerous - not necessarily to the keeper as it is with a starving snake, but it drastically shortens the lifespan of the animal.

Ham

[JasonBrennan]

What you are describing is basically severly underfeeding an animal to keep it small, and I find that idea to be incredibly cruel. It would be similar to taking a baby, and only feeding it enough to keep it alive. If you did this with a human baby, you would (and SHOULD) be locked up in prison. I know you said you don't plan on doing this, but this idea is sickening.

[wyz]

Thanks Ham..
So can we say that the system of a Burm and a Cornsnake work differently and because of that their nutritinnal needs are very different ?

Snakes can't be compared with mammal, because snakes seem to take what is given to them and work with it. Why would the needs a 3 feet Burm and a 3 feet Cornsnake be so different ? (lets say they have the same weight). That's what I'm trying to understand. Why are they different ? I'd like to find out if theirs needs are really different or are Burms and other giant just able to grow bigger than a Cornsnake. This question is strictly educationnal (didn't think I would need to add that, but it seems).

And Jason..

I'm repeating...it's PURELY EDUCATIONAL... don't worry.

WYZ

[reverendsterlin]

size is genetic, malnourishment can affect size but not that much mostly it will effect health

[Hamster of Borg]

It comes down to metabolism. Young burmese (or any large python for that matter) tend to put all nutrition they take in, directly into growth. Size is generally a good way to avoid predation. With cornsnakes, they are much more active animals and thus will burn their fuel at a higher rate. Also, availability of prey is going to be a factor in the size a species has evolved to. Keep in mind, evolution generally takes hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years, so the easy life of snakes in captivity is really not a factor in the species average growth - yet. The effects of human forced changes on a species can be readily seen in dogs.

Humans can be compared to snakes in that we (mammals) burn fuel (nutrition) at a much faster rate. Which is why we have to eat every day... but think about it, your 15' burmese python eats 12 pounds of rabbit once a month (give or take). You see it swallow that and think 'Whoa, thats a big meal.' but really, how much food does a human eat in a given month? :) Assuming 3 meals a day, for 30 days, most people consume somewhere around 2-3 pounds of food and drink in a day. When you think about it, aside from having to rely on their environmental temperature - snakes are much more efficient. :)

Ham

[Phantom]

"Why would the needs a 3 feet Burm and a 3 feet Cornsnake be so different ?"

Because the genes are different. At 3 feet, a cornsnake is a juvenile, almost adult. For a burm, he hardly started to grow!lol! At that size, he is still in full growth span and needs more energy (food) in order to grow and develop adequately. The girth size is also very different, therfore you cannot feed a burm the same size of prey that a cornsnake would eat.

For example (concerning genes), even if you boost a cornsnake to its maximum, he will NEVER grow the same size as a burm, the same way a burm would never stay as small as a cornsnake. The only thing that would happen is that the burm in question would stay very skinny, very unhealthy and eventually die, like said above.

By the way, very interesting conversation, wyzza :)

Phantom

[Scales Zoo]

We have an interesting thing to add to this interesting topic.

We have the triplet albino burms produced by Vern Ruml in 2001. We also have their 2000 hatchling sister.

Elvira is 12' long and 60 lbs.

The triplets are all about 4' long and 2.5, 3 and 3.25 lbs respectively.

One triplet needs to be assist fed, and it only eats 2 small rats per feeding (once a week). The others eat 3 or 4 each feeding. They were hatched very small (each less than 1/2 the size of the other baby snakes), and not able / refuse to eat larger food items.

They have not grown nearly as much as they have eaten compared to the other young burms we have had.

I am thinking that because there were 3 snakes in the one egg, they were hatched very small, and seem to be growing at a very slow rate compared to other burms fed the same amount - that they might be small.

It is interesting to note, that the best feeder and the most reluctant one are very close to the same size. The better feeder has easily eaten twice the amount of food than the picky one.

Also, none of the snakes tounges come out nearly as far as our other snakes and other burms.

Last year at this time, Elvira was 9' long and about 30 lbs.

The babies seem to be in good health, and not stressed or constanly hungry.

I contacte the only other person who I found that was reported to have produced triplets. Unfortunately - he sold all 3 snakes seperately, and didn't retain the contact info of the people who bought the snakes. (I would have paid him good money for all 3 snakes)

When we got the triplets I joked that it would be cool to have the genetics for a "dwarf albino burm" that would one day produce eggs that would contain 3 babies.

It will be interesting to see how big these snakes are in 20 years. Their mother is the largest albino burm I've every heard of. She is 8 years old, 20 feet and 200 lbs. Elvira seems to be following in Allies footsteps, and will one day be another huge albino burm.

If anyone has any info regarding any aspect of other triplet or dwarf like burms, please email us or post it.

Thanks very much

Ryan