Colors!!!!!!!!!!

[Gregg M]

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1298picture_018-med.jpg

[ETET]

Very nice cross Gregg!! What's the ratio of the head pattern (I mean rhino head pattern VS Gabby head pattern)?

Keep posing pics of these nice little fellows!

ETET

[Tim and Julie B]

Wow, are those crosses? Very cool. Personally my faves are the eyelash, but those are some amazing hots you have there!:D I love the darker one on the left!

[RachelS.]

Wow!! wowie wowie wow!!! WOW!! awesome!! cool!!! omg... *drools over over the keyboard*... *goes to get a few paper towels to clean it up, but sadly keyboard short-circuits and smoke comes out*... *dhahdflakdhalkdakldjal*... *smoke*...*house catches fire... *is stuck in the room and can't get out*... *dies*

lol sorry I was bored, and had a really creative mind tonight :p

[Gregg M]

50/50 ETET.....

[HetForHuman]

very very sweet
i cant get enough of the pattern on those guys
thanx for sharing

[SnowSnake]

Is it just me or are gaboon vipers chubby?

Great lookin hots you got there Gregg!!

[Lisa]

Sweet looking colours on them.

[Linds]

Not fond of crosses, but those are some gorgeous looking babies! :)

[Jeremy]

Hi Greg,
Sweet Bitis collection! As Linds mentioned, I too am not found of crosses either but those rhino/gabby crosses have got to be the best I have ever seen! Truley amazeing the colors that can come out in them!

However, though the colors of your snakes are truly awe inspireing I would have to argue that these snake's colors are atleast on par:-)

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/756mvc011f0.jpg
Pair of proven Aspidelaps lubricus. The large female pictured was laying eggs when I left for work this morning! 3 were duds but 2 so far looked good!! Keep your fingers crossed for me!
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/756mvc002f.jpg
near 4 ft adult female Trimeresurus purpureomactulatus

Welp, figured I would'nt let ya steel all of the lime light:-) J/K

Take care man sweet snakes once again!

Later,
Jeremy

P.S Question for you regarding Bitis taxonomy. A few years ago I remeber reading on one of the forums that Bitis gabonica gabonica and Bitis gabonica rhinoerus(spelling?)may proove to be seperate species of one another and was wondering if you had heard anything new on this seperation being that you are the resident bitis gooroo. I belive the opinion was backed up by DNA analysis. Anyway, just wanted to get your take on it.

[Gregg M]

Those are some great colors Jeremy....... I too feel that there is nothing more beautiful than pure bloods....... I am also not fond of crosses, but look at these things...... How can you not atleast like them alittle.....LOL..... The only reason I keep crosses of these two species is because it is a cross that occurs in its natural range and do not need coaxing to breed with eachother like most crosses....... To answer the question on the species separation of West African and East African Gaboons, I have heard nothing so far....... My opinion is that I do not think that they are "worthy" of species separation....... They are just too close to eachother on the evolutionary scale......... That was a realy great question Jeremy......

[ETET]

Jeremy,

I pulled out some info about the the study you mentioned, the study was done by Lenk et al. in 1999. The abstract:

He used immunological distances & mitochondrial DNA sequences to estimate the phylogenetic relationships among species of Bitis. Four principal monophyletic groups were identified and classified as subgerera of the genus Bitis:

1. subgenus Bitis which contains the single species B. arietans;
2. subgenus Macrocerastes contains B.gabonica, B nasicornis and probably, B. parviocula;
3. subgenus Calechidna contains the smaller species of Bitis; and
4. subgenus Keniabitis contains B. worthingtoni from Kenya

But subgenera are not very important for nomenclatural purposes, and all species can continue referred as it use to be. However, the definition of subgenera within a genus often precedes a full split into several genera in the future.

In addition Lent et al also noted a considerable degree of differentiation between the two conventionally recognised subspecies bitis g. gabonica and bitis g. rhinocerous. They are differentiated from each other as each from bitis nasicornis. Therefore he considered the western form of bitis gabonica to be a separate species.

Also, the geographical distribution between the two subspecies may suggest some differences from each other:

bitis g. gabonica- Nigeria east to S. Sudan and Uganda, S. of Angola, Gabon, Zambia in the west, and eastern Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Zululand in the east

bitis g. rhinocerous- Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Gabon, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, Ghana and Togo

As Gregg mentioned above, due to overlapping distribution, crossing between bitis species is not uncommon. In practical situation, I find the two separate subspecies seems make no difference in their captivity ;but one thing Lent et al mentioned about the comparisons of venom composition and AV effectiveness between the two subspecies is quite interesting.


ETET

[Gregg M]

ETET,
Do you feel they should be a separate species???? I feel that they do not have enough differences to be separated....... I think there is too tight of a knit between the two forms of Bitis gabonica...... But then again I am no herpetologist...... But I do put alot of time into studying bitis........ Taxonomy, natural history, and what ever else I can dig up........ Can two different species look and act so much alike???? Scale count are very close also...... But I do not think you can go by that either....... Bitis gabonica r from Togo has a different scale count than B.gabonica r from Ghana....... I will look into it more when I get home...... Maybe I will put some scale counts up for you or any one else interested.....

[ETET]

Gregg,

I find this subspecies thing is confusing too. Just like you mentioned, scale count and even DNA difference may not fully reflect subspecies really exist ;since the geographical distribution is so big and overlapped. The specimens' genetics may be mixed already, may be a field study of the gaboons in all areas will be able to identify genetic variations.

In my opinion, I won't separate them as a separate species base on only one study, I consider the eastern and western may be just two different morphs of the same species. Taxonomy is something even scientists and herpetologists find really difficult as it changes constantly , for a layman like me I'll just wait some more studies about this matter. I am more interested about their behaviour, breeding.......

Please put some scale counts up and I can check them to see if they come from which origin...... Thanks!

ETET

[Gregg M]

ETET,
These are some scale counts I have from Bitis gabonica gabonica in Uganda........
Victoria Nyanza-
Scale rows mid body-37
Ventrals-136
Subcaudals-19

Mboga, Semliki Valley-
Scale rows mid body-35
Ventrals-130
Subcaudals-30

Entebbe-
Scale rows mid body-39
Ventrals-131
Subcaudals-19

Mabira Forest-
Scale rows mid body-39
Ventrals-134
Subcaudals-21

Bukalasa-
Scale rows mid body-37
ventrals-139
Subcaudals-22

Ituri Forest-
Scale rows mid body-41
Ventrals-137
Subcaudals-21

Scale counts may differ up to 3 scale up or down on individuals from the same location...... I hope this helps you out......... I will try to dig up some more on Bitis gabonica rhinocerous as soon as I can.......

[Jeremy]

Wow guys, good info! ETET, thanks for pulling the abstract. I had never read it but instead heard talk about it at the unformentioned forums:-)

Persoanly, I definately see big differnces between the 2 forms but not really enough to consider them seperate sp. The one thing that has always supprised me about them is that the Westerns always have the horns were I have never seen them on the eastern ssp(has anyone else? Im not talking out the cloaca I hope). Though ssp usualy vary in coloration, scale count, behavior and pattern, I cant think of any ssp were one has such a pronouced charteristic and the other has no remblence of, or hardly any(again, I hope im not talking out the arse. I have noticed in a few B.gabonica gabonica that I have seen up close and personal that there is somesort of raise on the snout but never have I seen actually prtrudeing horns.).

Anyway, bloody great topic guys!! Now, were do you stand on the whole horridus fuster cluck:-) LOL

All the best,
Jeremy

[Jeremy]

BTW, reagrding Greg and your statement about haveing two seprate sp which look so similar, just think about this. Look at Amozon tree boas and green tree pythons, Asian and South American Vinesnakes, North American and Madagasgar Hognose, and even African Black Mambas and Indo pacific Taipans(this one was brought up in a book I read but it makes perfect sense. Both are built the same, fed on warm blooded prey, occupy the same nitch in their respective geographical areas and have extrodinarily toxic venom which is hundreds of times more powerfull them what they would need to subbdue prey. They are also both extreamly alert and deadly aggresive when confronted)

Anyway, do you see the trend? All of the sp listed above are not only seprate sp but seprate genus on differnt sides of the globe! If such distant sp can co evolve across the world from each other then I have no doubt they can do the same within the same land mass.

All the best,
J

[Jeremy]

P.S However, I still agree that gabbies are one in the same for the mean time. Maybe if more wide rangeing studies of differnt geographical areas were to take place and bring forth more facts then I would consider it but untill then both are Bitis gabonica in my mind.

[ETET]

Thanks Gregg :) !

Jeremy, I do come across some Eastern with very small protusion and some western has a small stiripe/tear drop below the eyes.

ETET

[Gregg M]

I see where you are comming from with that Jeremy....... And the point is well taken....... But such an abstract pattern being exactly the same....... Skull structure is identical also....... You can not tell the differance between the two shulls........ But you can see a clear differance between a gaboon skull and a rhino skull or a gaboon skull from a puff adder skull........ Even hemipenile shape is the same between B.g.g. and B.g.r. And I must agree that this is a great thread....... Lots of good info on bitis here.....