This is what happeneds when you feed LIVE

[Solid Snake]

Dont go if u have a weak stomach

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/boainc/snake.html

OK, now i ONLY feed my snake dead mice!

[reverendsterlin]

on few occasions I feed live. When an animal has passed on 4 meals, or for venemous that could use a venom dump(lol a false excuse) BUT I always stand over the enclosure and remove if not immediately killed.

[Solid Snake]

doesn't that picture look soo nasty?

[ThEmAdHaTtEr]

Man its true, some people just wont get the hint...Man what proof do ppl need?

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

..Eh, I would like to see a different pic when I see a topic like this.
It's always a ball python or a garter..
And for the record, in my past 14ish yrs of keeping herps I've always fed live. (excusing rodent feeding Thamps.)Never a problem.. I guess that's because Im smart enough to not feed a non feeding ball python a rat and walk away..
Xain

[marisa]

Then what WOULD you like to see? A cornsnake? A kingsnake? A burm? It has happened to all types of snakes, and accounts of such can easily be found on the internet.

Its great that you haven't had problems, but without warning people new to the "scene" can make some serious mistakes that can cost the snakes life, or at least call for an expensive avoidable vet trip.

Marisa

[BWSmith]

Yeah, that is amazing that you have never had an incident. But I don't think dropping in a rat and walking away is always the problem. I have seen a rat kill a Diamondback with one bite to the head. Just one bite. Noone is fast enough to prevent that. Stuff happens. I try to do everything to minimize the chance mishaps. I love having a freezer full of rodents.

[burmer]

I had never had a problem feeding live myself. I haven't fed live for over five years after seeing similar pics to this. That is just a very disturbing picture.

[Tim and Julie B]

I have been trying to get the hint across to one of my friends. He refuses to listen to us. There is three of us that have more experiance then him but he still doesn't want to listen. He always uses the "What do they do in the wild?" line. I still can't figure a way to convince him. I hate how some people get defensive when someone tries to help. Especally when they know you have been doing this for a lot longer. I watched my other friend feed his Rhino a live mouse to show off. Rhino's grab the prey and hold on. Unlike a lot of other venomous snakes so it is extra dangerous. The mouse bit the snake on the head and held on also so they were both in a death grip. I thought for sure the snake was going to lose asn eye! Luckily there was no serious damage.

[JD@reptiles]

the only alive mice i have fed to my snakes are pinkies. I feel so sorry for that poor BP. i guess $#!t happens.

Jordan

[Lizzy001]

u have to feel sorry for the snake...but pity the owner.

[Scales Zoo]

I just got the most disturbing email - this is spooky. I had just finished reading these posts, and checked our email. As it turns out they had a tragedy at the Science Centre when one of the live rats (mutilated was the word she used) one of the boas to death. We rescued a boa from them last year - they offered to surrender it because it was mean. I asked all the usual questions and found out they fed live. I was thanked politely for my opinions and advice on live feeding, and had the boa delivered to us. She was mean, and had several scars as evidence of being chewed on, and obviously on more than one occasion. Their excuse for feeding live was they had trouble finding frozen rodents. It seems to me that someone with the ability to find appropriate live prey could figure out how to make it dead - it does seem simple. Much easier than bringing a dead one back to life! As humans we are entitled to be stupid at times, but some people really abuse the privelege.

[Lisa]

It's not hard finding frozen rodents, heck alot of places refuse to sell you live rodents for feeding. Heck being the science center i'm sure they have dry ice on hand to put in the same container as the rodent to give the rodent a painless CO2 death.

[gonesnakee]

Sometimes snakes require live no matter what we do to prevent it, fact of life. These idiots that leave live prey unattended (especially rats) with their snakes should be subjected to the same fate (eaten alive). I just ran into a girl on Sat. at the petstore with a story on how her brother "killed" his python. Well he didn't actually do it the vet did, but it was the unattended live rat that had chewed his poor python to a point where it had to be euthanized. I explained to her what an idiot her brother was & quickly left before I was temped to vocalize my opinion properly instead of being politcially correct & all. The saddest part is that the snake would take dead/thawed, so there was absolutely no reason for the story I heard. Can you say "IDIOT" boys & girls, I knew you would, sigh! Mark I.

[Tim and Julie B]

I just remember my red tailed rats (racers) would only take live. I tried to convert them forever with no luck. I think they were STC though. But in some cases you have to. Just be careful!!!-Tim

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

..I knew that would spark a conversation; And yes I would like to see other pictures when they want to throw about the topic. It would help deter people from feeding live.. Seeing the same pic over and over dosnt get the point across, and everytime I see it I just think, Hey, why do morons try feeding live to a non feeding snake? I'm sure non-infomed people who see this same pic would think something of the same.. Now if I seen a Burm or a retic which in most cases are aggressive feeders and had a logical story behind it, then I'm sure the point would hit me. or at least several random pic ove the same topic. Maybe it' because I do everything natural for my animals that feeding live is stuck in my head. (Yes my animals get natural sunlight.) Or maybe it's because I'm messed up in the head.. Also, I'm not going to look over the internet just to see thee things, because I'm aware of what can happen. My point is, if you want to ge the pont across dont use the same animal. Lets also not forget it's like the 3rd time Ive seen this same pic on this site alone. But hey, live and let live..
Xain

[Scales Zoo]

In the case of the Science Centre, the boas in question were CB and had been started on F/T prey. Poor things have no idea about killing food. We have converted several snakes from live feed to thawed over time. It is not always easy, and we have been quite creative in our tricks to get them to eat thawed. The only live we ever feed is pinky mice or rats, and only as a last resort for hatchlings. In my opinion, the hatchlings that do not start feeding on F/T prey have a compromised appetite from the start, and in the wild would have probably become a meal before they found one. I have force fed baby snakes, and fed live to get them going, but would prefer never to have to feed live. We used to raise rats as feeders, and I have been the recipient of rat bites. Needless to say, we do not raise rats anymore, and I would cut the teeth out with side cutters and make sure it smacked its head on the cage door on its way in.

[Katt]

I think the excuse of feeding live is natural, is utter and pure and unadulterated and completely BS!!!!!!!

CAPTIVITY IS NOT NATURAL, therefore nothing we do in captivity is considered natural. In nature, snakes do not live in small enclosures, snakes and prey have avenues of escape that are just not possible in captivity. Feeding live in captivity (let me correct that) is NOT NATURAL. Please do not try to excuse your blantant disregard for your reptiles safety with this "it's natural" BS excuse. I'm really glad you haven't managed to kill any of your reptiles, in your 14yrs, however. Please DO NOT advise any newbies to feed live, please, please! For their sake and their reptiles sake, keep your live experiences to yourself.

If you do everything natural for your herps, please do not buy any more, buying, keeping, breeding herps is no way natural.

Sorry if I've come on a little strong, but I really can't take any more of this "it's natural" BS, it's one of my biggest pet peeves. Why not just fess up, and just say you like watching them kill, or that you can't kill the prey yourself.

[marisa]

Burms are aggresive feeders. But I myself have a personal story about them....

WAAAAY before I even knew about reptiles our neighbor had a large burmese python living in a bedroom that had been customized for it....well it wasn't a proper set up but it wasn't just like throw in a normal bedroom.....anyways.....it was between 8-11 feet...I can't really say exactly, but definitly more than two feet longer than my Dad at the tiem who is 6 feet.

Anyways the neighbor threw in a live large rat...and by large I mean those JUMBO sewer rats...(lol)...the next day the rat had chewed through so much of its neck it was almost decaptated. I don't know what state this snake was in to let this happen, I don't know if the food item was a proper size but it DID happen and my family talks about it to this day. These people had been feeding the burm live all its life.

It can happen to anyone who feed live, at any time, with any snake.

Marisa

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Hmm...

Well, lets consider the fact that most creatures, even snakes, live in fairly small niches. And Captivity may not be natural, but that don't mean taking away everything that you could give to them.
You can provide sunlight.. You do it. Most of the people I know do it. And Im aware that sunlight is natural stuff.. Forgive me if I'm wrong on that. People use dirt, chips, mulch of some sort for bedding.. Sheesh, that's naturalistic enough for me.. (not counting the laziness of some people who uses butcher paper or paper of the same sort as bedding for healthy herps)
I myself prefer sand and dirt.. Um, so by where Im sitting, you should provide naturalistic adventures if it's possible. Sure there may be a few walls of glass, wood or plastic but don't limit everything..
And feeding live or dead in captivity is natural. Eating is natural.
and that's not what I was trying to express in the earlier post. You're pinpointing the wrong parts... Blantant excuse? Forgive me, I wasnt aware you kept your snakes in sweater boxes with
flexwatts for heat.. Again, I was't advising anyone to feed live, or dead; mouse or rat. I was saying, Hey.. You want to deter people from an act, then use more than one picture.

::That last sentence.. Read that.. That's the point.. ::
And keeping my ways of keeping to myself is not going to happen, unless of course, you do the same. And for he record, isn't brumation natural, and don't you need to do that to most of herp populations to do what? Oh yea, another natural thing.. Reproducing...

""If you do everything natural for your herps, please do not buy any more, buying, keeping, breeding herps is no way natural.""

Forgive me, wasn't aware natraul keeping is so evil and disliked.
Buying is natural.. Think about it. Keeping is natural.. Think about that as well.. And breeding.. Not natural? Mother nature is a wicked woman..

""Sorry if I've come on a little strong, but I really can't take any more of this "it's natural" BS, it's one of my biggest pet peeves. Why not just fess up, and just say you like watching them kill, or that you can't kill the prey yourself.""


Eh, no worries.. Feeding live or dead is natural.. Snakes do feed on carion so uh.. Hmm..
And fess up? Sure, I love to watch nature in action wheather it's feeding, breeding, fighting, or what-knot.. Killing is natural..
And, yes.. Killing them myself is somewhat sad because I cherish all life.. Not just a snake that I paid more for then a feeder..
But then again.. I am pro food chain..

I will type in caps to see if this will put my point across..

YOU WANT SOMEONE TO FEED DEAD, DON'T USE THE SAME PIC OVER AND OVER.. USE MULTIPLE PICS.
I also understand it could happen to any herp. That's not the discussion...
Xain

[ReptiZone]

well I was reading this thread and thaught I was the only one that would post that pic.

I was the one that posted the prior thread.

Anyway if it is disturbing pic's you are looking for well i will hook you up here you go.

[ReptiZone]

And here is the worst one I could find.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Yes of course, sorry. How's that?

Hmm...

Well, lets consider the fact that most creatures, even snakes, live in fairly small niches. And Captivity may not be natural, but that don't mean taking away everything that you could give to them.
You can provide sunlight.. You do it. Most of the people I know do it. And Im aware that sunlight is natural stuff.. Forgive me if I'm wrong on that. People use dirt, chips, mulch of some sort for bedding.. Sheesh, that's naturalistic enough for me.. (not counting the laziness of some people who uses butcher paper or paper of the same sort as bedding for healthy herps)
I myself prefer sand and dirt.. Um, so by where Im sitting, you should provide naturalistic adventures if it's possible. Sure there may be a few walls of glass, wood or plastic but don't limit everything..
And feeding live or dead in captivity is natural. Eating is natural.
and that's not what I was trying to express in the earlier post. You're pinpointing the wrong parts... Blantant excuse? Forgive me, I wasnt aware you kept your snakes in sweater boxes with
flexwatts for heat.. Again, I was't advising anyone to feed live, or dead; mouse or rat. I was saying, Hey.. You want to deter people from an act, then use more than one picture.

::That last sentence.. Read that.. That's the point.. ::
And keeping my ways of keeping to myself is not going to happen, unless of course, you do the same. And for he record, isn't brumation natural, and don't you need to do that to most of herp populations to do what? Oh yea, another natural thing.. Reproducing...

""If you do everything natural for your herps, please do not buy any more, buying, keeping, breeding herps is no way natural.""

Forgive me, wasn't aware natraul keeping is so evil and disliked.
Buying is natural.. Think about it. Keeping is natural.. Think about that as well.. And breeding.. Not natural? Mother nature is a wicked woman..

""Sorry if I've come on a little strong, but I really can't take any more of this "it's natural" BS, it's one of my biggest pet peeves. Why not just fess up, and just say you like watching them kill, or that you can't kill the prey yourself.""


Eh, no worries.. Feeding live or dead is natural.. Snakes do feed on carion so uh.. Hmm..
And fess up? Sure, I love to watch nature in action wheather it's feeding, breeding, fighting, or what-knot.. Killing is natural..
And, yes.. Killing them myself is somewhat sad because I cherish all life.. Not just a snake that I paid more for then a feeder..
But then again.. I am pro food chain..

I will type in caps to see if this will put my point across..

YOU WANT SOMEONE TO FEED DEAD, DON'T USE THE SAME PIC OVER AND OVER.. USE MULTIPLE PICS.
I also understand it could happen to any herp. That's not the discussion...
Xain

[ReptiZone]

All you need to do is look up

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Ah, good deal.
Glad someone followed on what I was saying.. Especially it not being a ball.
Those, should be included on a post like this. Not just a ball..
Thanks, Chondro.
Your snakes?
Xain

[ReptiZone]

no thos are not my snakes I would never fall victime to such stupidity. it comes from one of my books ''what's wrong with my snake'' BTW the boa was attacted by a ferret not a rat just thaught I would share.

[Leo-Land]

I would think this could only happen if you leave a mouse or rat in with your snake, and not watch it. So it would only happen to crappy keepers.

[Hamster of Borg]

If you think it can only happen if you leave the prey item in there for a period of time, you're sadly mistaken. All it takes is one bite to potentially be fatal (either outright or through infection), and that bite can even happen if you're dangling the mouse by the tail. Just because it hasn't happened "in all your years of keeping snakes" doesn't mean it can't. S**t happens. There is next to no reason for us, as responsible keepers, to not do all we can to protect our pets from unnecessary harm.

Ham

[eyespy]

Very well stated, my collective rodent friend! I've spent years holding the hands of crying owners who've said "But nothing like this has ever happened before and I've kept snakes for XX years...." while the vets try and repair the damage caused by a live feeder. Saw maybe 10 to 20 cases a week of mutilated snakes for 15 years and am too lazy to do the math.

[Leo-Land]

Well, that just seems logical to me.. P.S. never owned a snake! lol

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Pet dogs come from wolves, turn of the last century they were bred to be more tame , some wanted vicious dogs so dobermans and rot wielers were bred, dogs are fed canned food , you wouldnt see owners feeding them live prey which wolves eat.



... Dogs were seperated from wolves some 10-12,000 years ago.
With multitudes of selective cross breeding and inbreeding.
Each Dog species we have a crosses from other speces of dog.
And wolves when they were in the process of being kept as pets not only ate live but scraps as well.. Feeding your dog canned food is not even healthy, dispite the fact dogs are Domesticated creatures. Snakes are not. And also, dogs as well as cats still hunt food items.. So, comparing a domesticated creature to a wild animal isn't logical, especially if the animal still eats live creatures either way....



Its all down to sense and sensibility, if you know of potential risks can can arise by keeping captives, then its common sense and responsible husbandry to eliminate the risk, if this means feeding dead prey then surely its the right thing to do, anyone who fails to see the welfare of their animals should not keep animals period. You shouldnt have to see a photo of a tragic event or multiple photo's to know what is right and what is wrong, if anyone cant make reasonable decisions over such a clear testimony of cruelty which is written in text in many books and web pages, then i can only assume they have done zero research, irresponsible and bloody minded.

...Feeding live is nothing near cruelty. It's the facts of life. Cruelty in my eyes are keeping snakes in sweater boxes, no light, little room to move and a few airholes assuming thats its ample enough air because they are still alive. Plus power feeding so you could breed sooner than another, ect. Now, I know this may not attain to you, but do you honestly think that's humane? Or keeping a 16' burm in a 10'x4' cage? Give or take? Feeding live is the least of worries for most keepers. You choose to feed dead, your choice, but I can nearly bet most who does, doesn't even give the snake enough room to fully stretch out. (Large boids.)
Hell, I bet colubrids dont even get enough amount of room to squirm around, being most are very active, Diurnal creatures. That's cruel in my book. Not feeding live of a possible strike back against the attacker. And first it started as a picture post, one of the pictures most commonly used. Basic beginners to boids know most Balls are finicky eaters, and evaluate the pic simply as the arrogent keeper fed/left his non eating ball a rat. The ample use of other pics will help evaluate the ball pic. So if you post a pic of this topic, do it right.
...A ferret, eh? One could only wonder..
Xain

[The_Omen]

Seems like this has grown into quite the discussion.

Now here's more food for thought, something I don't recall anyone posting as a point, although have seen another point mentioned, that is, snakes eating live in the wild as if it is all they eat in the wild.

In the wild, all animals, including snakes, are creatures of opportunity when it comes to food and feedings.
Even the parasitic animals such as the hyena, wait for another animal to do the work for it, devouring dead prey just as they would live prey, if they needed to catch it themselves.
Snakes also eat like this, primarily due to food having varying degrees of scarcity in the wild.
One season may provide an abundance of food, while another season may not.
Another season may provide too many prey items that will die of starvation or disease. If so, then snakes will still eat dead, as the opportunty arises.
Food is food, dead or live in the wild and with snakes being masters of conservation will eat dead in the wild as another means of conserving energy.
It's a free meal per say.
:)

[ReptiZone]

I dont realy understand where are going with all this curalty stuff like you are questioning husbandry skils that were based on nothing but fact and long term studies.

There is UV bulbs for animals that require natural sun light to live. You know there is probebly ppl reading this thread and saying I sould give my snake natural light too but you faild to mention that you should NEVER under any circomstances expos your cage to natural sun light cause you will have the green house effect meaning the sun light will fillter through the glass of your window and then again through the glass of the enclosure creating somthing like a magnifying glass and roasting your animal.

who cares what we feed our dogs at least the vets care about them and can patch them up when a stupid keeper screws up.
We need to take the initiative to take proper care of our herps it will minimise the vets trips. So ppl wont fall victime to the system.

What wrong with feeding a ferret to a snake That could hapen it the wild ppl feed rabits and guine pigs and latter even pigs so one should not wonder it was probebly the only thing he/she could get there hands on. The real mistake was taking the chance and feeding it live.

It may have never hapend to you yet but be warned that it could happen to you tomarow or on any feeding day feeding live is like playing russian roulette when will the bullet be behind the hammer and not a empty chamber.

[ReptiZone]

well put The_Omen

[marisa]

I would like to add to what Chondro Python said.

Its fine and dandy that you have placed yourself on such a high horse because you feel natural sunlight is best. When if you have cerain species, it will do nothing but stress them out. Its GREAT you do that for your animals, seriously, and hopefully they are dinural...but to assume others aren't good keepers because they have UVB bulbs or no sunlight is just silly, and a huge generalization.


As well as saying all snakes or herps living in rubbermaids are suffering. Did you even think to consider some that PREFER smaller, less clear housing before making such a broad statement? I would also like to see your sources for proof that herps/snakes whatever do better in something other than rubbermaid. Not that rubbermaids are the best, but I'd like to see your proof of why they are "cruel" ....maybe for large boids, but not for species such as ball pythons who PREFER to feel safe and secure and stay relatively hidden. This matches how they behave in the wild. So why should others force them to endure natural sunlight each day in a huge cage they will be stressed in because you say so?

Really man, I am not trying to be rude. But you are making some comments I personally feel are huge generalizations, huge guesses as to what people are keeping without "natural light" and in rubbermaids. Most colubrids are dinural? Are we talking most as in, in the world or most commonly kept? Because that would be corns, which prefer early evening and early morning and night time.

Look I agree most snakes could use more room. But I think you are way to generalizing and you aren't telling people how you came to any of these conclusions.

Marisa

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

but to assume others aren't good keepers because they have UVB bulbs or no sunlight is just silly, and a huge generalization.



..I never said not having natural sunlight was bad. I said keeping animals in a small dark box with flexwatt as heat was just as "inhumane" as feeding live.
Now I also understand that snakes don't require UVation as well, but hey, lets take everything from them...


As well as saying all snakes or herps living in rubbermaids are suffering. Did you even think to consider some that PREFER smaller, less clear housing before making such a broad statement?


Rat snakes, racers, garters, most elapids, most crotalus, ect require more room than most people I've seen give them. Active snakes need more room compared to slow sluggish worms.
But hey, They are only snakes.. And are you sure 16' burms require so little space so many herpers give? If so, forgive me.


I would also like to see your sources for proof that herps/snakes whatever do better in something other than rubbermaid



.. Thrashng from side to side garters or bull snakes from side to side in 4' container looks a tad painful to me.. Hell, even the 200g. troughs appears painful. But hey, as long as noone feeds live. We all love a good bashing.


Not that rubbermaids are the best, but I'd like to see your proof of why they are "cruel" ....maybe for large boids, but not for species such as ball pythons who PREFER to feel safe and secure and stay relatively hidden.



..Given the space, they will use it. I never declined a small box for coziness..



This matches how they behave in the wild.


..They travel and seek shelte in small hides, not live there lives in them.



So why should others force them to endure natural sunlight each day in a huge cage they will be stressed in because you say so?



..Heh. I dont recall saying Give ball pythons sunlight. I said I provide most of my snakes natural sunlight. And a huge cage wont stress them out; Or at least the ones I have raised or care for. ( 6'l.x6'w.x2'h. enclosures for prs.)

Most colubrids are dinural?

..Seasonal on most specimens behaviors.

Are we talking most as in, in the world or most commonly kept?

Throwing all 'dem buggas in a bowl.

Because that would be corns, which prefer early evening and early morning and night time.

I was under the impression the sun was still out during the crespuscular hours.. Before or after the sun sets.. Twilight hours involves the sun showing.. And aren't those lil' creatures active?



Look I agree most snakes could use more room. But I think you are way to generalizing and you aren't telling people how you came to any of these conclusions.



..Well, the post wasn't on housing and never infered to evaluate a scare post on my housing opinions. I only used it to back my statement up on feeding live isn't as evil as everyone sees it out to be. And doing so would make my replies to those a tad longer than this one and I assume most people won't even finish this post unless they are in an arguable mood.



I dont realy understand where are going with all this curalty stuff like you are questioning husbandry skils that were based on nothing but fact and long term studies



Backing a point. Fact, feeding live MAY cause bites. FACT, housing an active creature in a small containment isn't a good deal. Get where I'm going with this?





There is UV bulbs for animals that require natural sun light to live.

Well from past read studies
Most if not all UV bulbs don't even penetrate 6" of air and most enclosures UV is placed well above a foot. Again, past readings, if I'm wrong show me the light. If not, then buying those over priced bulbs are useless..


You know there is probebly ppl reading this thread and saying I sould give my snake natural light too but you faild to mention that you should NEVER under any circomstances expos your cage to natural sun light cause you will have the green house effect meaning the sun light will fillter through the glass of your window and then again through the glass of the enclosure creating somthing like a magnifying glass and roasting your animal

Good point. However, my statements were never to clarify my housing opinions, just back up statements to why do one without expressing another?

who cares what we feed our dogs at least the vets care about them and can patch them up when a stupid keeper screws up.

Ok.. Hmm.. Are you with or against feeding live or dead.. I mean, hurt animals can be fixed too.. I'm lost...

We need to take the initiative to take proper care of our herps it will minimise the vets trips.

So are herps are more important then mans best friend?

What wrong with feeding a ferret to a snake That could hapen it the wild
Ferret to eaten by a Boa wouldn't happen naturally.. But, I never sad it was a problem, just wondering why feed an expensive animal to another. Boredom? Amusement? Lack of the caring ability? Hmm..

ppl feed rabits and guine pigs and latter even pigs so one should not wonder it was probebly the only thing he/she could get there hands on I dunno, Im sure if you could by a ferret, you could get a mouse; Or at least wait a week for some to arrive. Rabbits as well as pigs are generally cheap. Way cheaper than a ferret mind you. I bet it was because of the above reasons why it was fed.

It may have never hapend to you yet but be warned that it could happen to you tomarow or on any feeding day feeding live is like playing russian roulette when will the bullet be behind the hammer and not a empty chamber.
Good point. Valid point. Damn near the best I've heard so far. And that's the post that would make any live feeder change his mind. All of the previous writtings that tried to show me as a moron have just been defeated. But lifes about chances, things live, things die. God (Yes I'm religious) will decide when it's time for the slithery creature goes.

To Omen's post. I do believe I carried on about snakes eating carrion. However, good post.

And in conclussion, I hope. It doesn't matter how I treat my animals, or how you do yours. (in this post.) My whole starting on this post was because of the thing that feeding dead was the only answer. I'm saying do what you can. Do what works for you. And if you want to convice someone on a topic use various reasonings. Not a picture that was used multiple times. Good day.
Xain

[snakelover111]

Come on now. Survival of the fittest. If the mouse wins congrats to him

[ReptiZone]

It could also be the owner wanted to save a buck so he fed his friends ferret to his snake after the friend said he did not want it any more. You know us men we will feed anything to our snakes just to see if it can be eaten thre worst thing is a ferret is the snakes worst enemy.

And yes herps are more in portant the mans best friend.

MY boss's cat had kitens and he feed them to a caimen and went right to lunch after. NOTE the kitens were still borns so he was not barbaric

I have learnd to regard every thing with furr as herp food.
If you only knew how many ppl ask me to fix the stray population in my little vilage but my snakes are to small and it is against the law.
But I would not think twice about feeding a dog to a retic I hate dogs but that is just me.....................LOLOLOLO

not congrats to him over a 10 000$ snake
I will kill the darn thing slowly if that would hapen to me

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Personally, I respect all life. Annoying insects the least simply because I can kill them when they pester me with out going to jail. In most cases anyways. Humans come in a close second, but I doubt I'd kill one because then I'd feel bad only wiping out the annoying people and guys.
I bought a duck not to long ago to feed as to one of my juvenile crocodilians an the way the duck swam and quacked made me feel evil, so I kept him as a pet until he grew into a big over grown chair and tried to eat my cat. I gve him to a friend who was capable of caring for him because I'm a pansy and couldn't handle him in one of my ponds. (All of my ponds inhabit very large carnivorus animals, as do most of the enclosures I have.)
So feeding a furry, mischeivious creature on a good day would make me sad. heh. Now the still borns, in a heart beat. No need to waste good food. But I dunno, Live an let live, bug me and die.
Good motto?
Xain

[snakelover111]

sorry for the reply that said: well come on now its survivil of the fittest if the mouse wins congrats to him. my dad wrote that!!!:skull: :medangry: now im p***ed about it sorry

[marisa]

"Lets take everything from them"

I am not sure what you mean by this. You as well as everyone else around here keeps herps in a cage. Saying you feel better mentally because you aren't taking everything away is a little silly to me. They are living in a cage no matter how you look at it. If your views are so militant about keeping herps then why keep them captive in the first place? You can't have a natural world for a captive herp. Yes you can get close, but its not the wild. Its a home. People live in the home. Noises, etc. It can never be natural. Buying them alone took everything away. I agree give them the best home you can but I believe that means following what generations of snake keepers (same species as me) have proven to be sucessful methods to keeping and breeding healthy snakes. Your natural sun and huge cage method works great I am sure, but it doesn't work for everyone and it certainly doesn't work for every herp. I don't believe that means people who are sucessful in keeping that way can't say feeding live is bad. Feeding live is a mistake that can happen in a large or small cage.

They travel and seek shelte in small hides, not live there lives in them

Ball Pythons are NOT a travelling snake. This is obvious just by comparing their body and habits with a cornsnake. You'd be surprised how small a range most of them have. By forcing them to live in large cages you are forcing them to seek out correct temp gradients which is not always a good thing, not always. The fact that Ball Pythons are heathier/happier/better eaters when living in small safer cages has been shown by many many breeders, including many on this site. You saying their balls would do better in 80 gallon cages is simply not true. *Some* may, but even more will be too stressed out by the open space to freely move through the heat gradient, won't want to eat, etc. This has come up hundreds of times on this site alone.

Thrashng from side to side garters or bull snakes from side to side in 4' container looks a tad painful to me.. Hell, even the 200g. troughs appears painful. But hey, as long as noone feeds live. We all love a good bashing.

But is that not the point of having threadS? One thread for one discussion another for another discussion? This thread was about the dangers of feeding live, not the downside of small cages. I agree most snakes need more room but why would I bring up each thing I see as a husbandry fault in every thread I post in? I see your point but don't see why someone who keeps in rubbermaids shouldn't post about not feeding live.

I just don't understand what basis you have for saying those snakes kept in rubbermaids are less healthy than yours kept in these bedroom sized cages? A 200 gallon trough is more than enough for a happy small sized colubrid. I doubt you could actually tell me the differance in health between my colubrids or those kept in a 200 gallon trough. Mine have larger than average cages, and I DO AGREE that some peoples housing is gross.

I believe big boids are another story altogether. I also cannot believe some people keep them in 8 by 3 foot cages. But then again those people would argue that the snakes aren't using the room even when given the room. But I don't know much about large boids so I won't comment much on them.

I just keep small colubrids and I don't agree that my animals are being tortured by living in rubbermaids with flexwatt heating. I am not sure what type of heating you'd suggest for someone living in Canada that would be more natural. But if it was active UV bulbs I doubt I'd have very happy snakes for long. My iguanas cage is not even large enough to allow safe use of those. I did @ one time use a UVB stripe light for better viewing of two corns....I never did see a differance though. In fact one of them is a total shrimp/slow grower and the other passed away. Of course this has nothing to do with the bulb, but it doesn't seem to have helped out as much as you seem to think it would. It made no differance what so ever. And if you ask how I know, then I'd ask how you know it does. :)

I just want to add (sorry novel) that you have good points...I just don't understand why you lump everyone who uses those methods together when the facts point that some species do better in those enclosures.

Marisa

[BoidKeeper]

I may have missed it if I did sorry for bring it up again but most snakes that won't take F/T will take a fresh kill. I had a ball that would not come out of his fast this year and a fresh killed rat from the hemostats did the trick. I had a hog island boa that I had to convert from live. She went from live fuzzie mouse to a stunded fuzzie to a fresh kill to frozen thawed. My point is even if you have to feed live you can stun it first and use hemos to greatly reduce the risk of injury to your snake. I see no reason to ever have to place a live feeder on the floor cage.
Cheers,
Trevor

[eyespy]

Live rodents fed to snakes get extremely stressed and produce a hormone called cortisol which does not get digested by herps, in fact it can enter the bloodstream much like estrogen does in mammals and contribute to stress-related diseases.

I see absolutely no reason for not stunning or preferably killing the prey first. It's far healthier for the snake. No matter how big a cage we provide our snakes do not get the exercise that a wild snake does and can't work off the "fight or flight" hormones effectively. So they are prone to develop immune system deficiencies, liver disease and obesity caused by high cortisol levels.

[SerpentLust]

That is such a sad site. Poor snake. I have always and will always feed my snakes f/t. There are so many things you can try if they don't like the f/t ones without resorting to live.

Jenn

[aqua_demon]

That is totally sick pik but in the pic is the BP dead or alive?

[ReptiZone]

Dead!!!!!!!

[Lisa]

at the time of the pic the BP is alive, it had to be put down.