Venomous Snakes/ Hot Herps

[aqua_demon]

I myself have no problem with Hot Herps, but I know that some ppl do. So I would just like to know what everyone else thinks so feel free to reply your feelings on the subject. I look forward to your opinions.

[Vanan]

I voted yes. As long as they're kept responsibly.

[ThEmAdHaTtEr]

I voted Undecided, you should put a yes/no on there. I DO think it is right if the owner is a responsible pet keeper and provides it with what it deserves.. On the other hand, a Hot is pretty much the same as a loaded gun with the trigger pulled half way back. One wrong move and BAM! Peple like GreggM and BWSmith prove this point exactly. Very responsible keepers. But on the other hand, theres those other people that know NOTHING about the requirements of the animal when its bought. Not to mention the fact of Venemoids. Well, thats my 2 pennies.

[mk-ultra]

since they are illegal here i should say no but if you are responsible well its a yes so ill go with a yes

[Zoe]

They are legal with a license.

[Lisa]

I think they should be kept, but I don't think everyone should have one.

[Tim and Julie B]

I think that many herpers are responsible enough to keep them but personally I think they are venomous for a reason, 'stay away". I would never own a venomous reptile or arachnid but that's just me, so I voted undecided. Which is kind of strange since my favorite snake is an Eyelash Viper!:D

[Matt]

there is nothing wrong with keeping hots as long as the keeper is experienced and responsible

....and as a side note, I believe all keepers of any species that isnt native should keep their OWN supply of antivenin.

It is not a responsible move to rely on a zoo or any other keeper in the area to supply you with antivenin!!!

[reptilesalonica]

I think this poll has incomplete fields. Where is the field "Yes, under circumstances" or "Yes, after close shadowing of experienced hot heepers". The same way some people have fishes, i keep 2 hots. I don't like fishes but i do like my hots. They are intelligent (comparing to non-hots) with interresting behavior, amazing colors. Both fishes and hots are display animals. I believe that if the hot snake(s) kept under optimoum circumstances and the owner is experienced and responsible of it's animals, then, yes, it is right keeping venomous snakes. I recommend major attention to the hot breeders/ranchers/dealers. I believe that THEY are responsible for the new comer's knowledge level about hot herps. They must not sell venomous to gain money. Priority must be given to the proper knowledge base of the one that going to obtain a hot snake(s). He/she must realise that having a hot snake(s) is like having a loaded gun all the time. They must ensure to themselves that they are responsible for their family, neighbours and physical needs of the animal they going to buy and remember that any mistake will prove fatal to themselves, family and worse of all to the herp community.

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_9224697/ReptileSalonica/Snakes/Vipera+ammodytes.jpg?bcJdQu.AsEW3uR4Y
Longnose horned viper (Vipera ammodytes)

~Greg~

[Pixie]

I personally feel that hots shouldn't be kept as pets.

Let me clarify!

Keeping such an animal or animals for pure personal enjoyment wether one is experienced or not I feel is too big a risk. Even the most knowledgeable, experienced keepers have accidents, NO one can say that they are completely avoidable. Wether it be a handling mistake, escape or other these things do happen to the best of them. Not only counting the risk that the actual keeper is taking for himself, one has to consider the surroundings and other people at risk no matter how slim a chance such a disaster would happen.

Then one has to think of the economic impacts an accident with a hot can have. Take a bite to the keeper. Even if he curbs the cost of the anti-venin, who covers the cost of the medical help, hospitalization, etc? (I.E. in Canada?!) Such an accident would run up in the thousands of dollars for health care. If there is an escape, having the appropriate authorities step in to retrieve the snake can also incur hefty costs.

We haven't even begun to assess the impact of such a thing to the herp community in General.

For these reasons, I think hots as PETS aren't a good idea no matter what the circumstances.

Are there circumstances that I think hots should be kept?

Yes. For scientific and anti-venin purposes, I feel there is a need for it. I don't feel it has to absolutely be done by officially credited individuals as I feel there are other types of experience that would qualify someone to participate in such a project. I don't even feel that it has to be studies necessarily stated sanctionned. I just feel that the practice of keeping hots should be productive in some way to society to account for it's risk factor. Wether it be an individual starting on his own and making his own studies and then publishing them or a big governmental project.

My 2 cents,
Pixie

[BWSmith]

Not much gray area on my vote ;)

[reverendsterlin]

many more people die annually from medical complications due to being overweight than ever die from snake bites, should we start legislating food consumption, jail the chubby? I always say RESEARCH!!!!!!, thousands of reptiles die every year from inept husbandry, some die from lack of water, cooked in the tank by the window, starved, frozen, or eaten by their 'meal'. Keeping hots is definitely not for everyone, but like in every thing else someone that shouldn't gives it a try. Most of those folks learn fairly quickly and get rid of their animals, others have their animals die, a tiny few get hurt. The stats are probably the same for non-hot keepers and alot of fish,corns,kings,balls,leos, and boas die than hots or hot keepers. If it wasn't for the shock value of 'venomous snake' you wouldn't hear about it. sorry for the rant.

[ETET]

I believe it is OK to keep hots if the person is experienced, responsible and has proper housing (locked cages and hot room...etc). I think experienced keepers know the underlining risk and they know how to deal with it if accident happen, and also they love their families like anyone do.

I understand for those who vote NO; its is simply because many non-experienced keepers out there. These keepers make non-hot herp keepers and general public think keeping venomous is a very risky business, and therefore they are strongly against it . Its really like first kill the hobby and then ask questions later. Do any one ever ask a zoo can keep hot or not? Of course no, people know the snake is in a locked cage and put behind a glass panel for viewing is safe. If the same thing happen in a hot keeper's hot room, then the same group of people will say NO. IMO this double standard shows people are not confident in hot keepers are capable, a lot ...lot more education to the public like BW Smith and other hot keepers will help to reverse this weird concept of keeping hots.

In addition, other snakes like giant boid like BCC, giant pythons like burmese, rock, retic..etc should be included in potiential lethal species like hots. May be a new poll of keeping hots and potential lethal snakes or not will help. I do believe handling a gaint snake is no less lethal than handling a hot one.

ETET

[Pixie]

ETET,

I am not one who is for the keeping of giant snakes as pets but to classify them as lethal as venomous snakes I think isn't right. I may be wrong here, but I am sure there are much more venom-related snake fatalities versus giant snake fatalities. One can arguably say that most accidents with hots happen when humans and wildlife intercross but I am still pretty sure that in the herp "hobby" much more snake fatalities are due to hots versus giants.

To compare the injuries alone and accident potential, one can note a significant difference. When a giant snake bites you, it won't necessarily constrict you and give a fatal injury. The percentage of people being tagged by a giant versus the percentage of people having serious health complications caused by that bite is very low. A keeper can have some safety measures in case he's been tagged (i.e. bottle of alcohol).

When a hot snake bites you, what are the percentages of those who suffer serious injuries and even risk death? This is why I feel you cannot compare the two classes of snakes. Yes, both are potentially dangerous but one significantly more so.

I would ask a question of hot keepers. Should an accident happen with a hot keeper and one of his snakes, be it a very experienced and knowledgeable keeper (one cannot prevent them 100%). How do you explain your community defraying the costs of such an accident for the sake of a pet? We're not only talking about financial costs mainly medical, but the herp community as a whole. Such incidences have huge impacts on the herp community and we've all seen how the media and "general" population reacts. How would you feel if a hot keeper had an incident and the community pushed to have most reptiles banned as pets because of it?

I just have such a hard time understanding why people choose to keep hots for the pure entertainment of it when one factors in all the different types of risk involved.

I am certainly not an anti-hot activist!!! Just still trying to understand and stating my own personal opinion.

Reverendsterling: I have a hard time understanding your last post. The safety of the animals per say weren't brought up but the keepers and those around them. Also I have a very hard time understanding your comparison of people overeating and keeping hots. Both can be lethal, yes. But only one of the two are lethal to both the keeper and others around him. But I think that is besides the point.

I don't keep a hot for the same reason I don't keep a loaded gun in the house, the risk of having it in the house and causing an accident to me or someone else is too great for me to undertake.

Many hot keepers will say that keeping hots isn't as risky as most would think. Can you honestly say that your techniques are completely fool proof? Yes, accidents do not happen often but they still do happen.

Okay, I've said enough of a mouthfull for now!!!

Pixie

[ETET]

Pixie,

Its very good to see your input about this issue. You are right that non-hot herpers and general very hard to understand why people keep hot. Seems like both sides have their points, as I said only people with experience, responsible and proper housing can keep hots. For example, in Florida, if you have 1000 logged hrs of practice, proper housing...etc, you can have a licence to keep hots. That means the government do allow individual to keep hots for whatever reason once they fulfill this requirement. The public know about this too, although this is not 100% fool proof and accident may still happen. Will any accident happen affect the herp community? I don't think so, since all requirement has satisfy according to the law; VS e.g. a space shuttle accident, you do all the things you have to do with state of art technology, but sometimes accident just happen. Will people stop doing that, they won't since they tried everything for maximum safety nad those people willing to take the risk. In my opinion, those who affect the herp community are those non-responsible keepers.

For the potential lethal snake issue, I still stand my point. I think a big boa or python deserve the same respect as a hot snake and should only leave for advance keepers. I can imagine a 10ft giant snake in one's backyard will impress the neighbours as same as a hot snake. I am not sure if anyone will like to test if a giant snake is going to bite/constrict vs a hot snake is giving a dry/wet bite. That's why some states/provinces has restrictions of certain species which will grow beyond a certain length. That means the law and general public view giant snake are dangerous no less than hot snakes. Although many people try to fight the government about this.


Lets hope all hot keepers be responsible when they still have this precious rights to keep hots. I think I said enough....


ETET

[Gregg M]

Well here is what I think....... Venomous reptile should never be considered "pets"......... They are not pets by any stretch....... I know for me and alot of other hot keepers on this site, venomous snakes are used to educate the public and our selves........ They are awsome creatures that need lots of respect and should only be kept by the most expeianced keepers........ Almost all the hot keepers I have talked with from this site are not in it to feel macho or for the rush......... If you keep hots for this reason you should not keep them........ But when you keep them for the reasons that BWSmith, ETET, Cobraman, myself, and a few others on this site keep them for, and the way we keep them, well then there should be no problem......... Again, venomous snakes are NOT pets.......

[reverendsterlin]

sorry, I came off a little half-cocked. It is just that this question comes up so often. There are plenty of irresponsible herp keepers out there, a tiny portion of those keep hots. Those that are irresponsible hot keepers get an enormous amount of press comparitively. There are thousands of causes out there that affect thousands to millions of persons, why should such a tiny brach as hot herp keepers suffer for the mistakes of even fewer persons. Most invenomations in the press aren't even herper related, some hiker or drunk gets tagged. To me it's like saying since there are car wrecks nobody should drive. As a hot keeper I tire of the constant 'should we allow keeping hot reptiles?', should we allow any Joe Blow to buy any reptile, look at how many reptiles die every year a much larger cause if someone needs a bandwagon. If you don't like hots, don't keep them, but unless you specifically are threatened by an animal in someone's collection by their poor technique it is all a 'what if' game, and your support or lack of it does affect us if somebody decides to try to regulate individuals.