Question for all boid keepers

[Gary D.]

Dispite the failure of other reptile registries in the past. Linda H. has now initiated the American Boa Registery in the US, and I am a bit behind her progress for the Canadian Boid Registery. Although I am still working with my software designer and web planning, I am planning on launching the registry at the the May 17th TARAS show in Calgary.

So my question is, are there many herpers here that would be interested in this service in Canada. Also for what it is worth, this service would be offered at no charge for quite some time, in order to get it started.

Interested in hearing your oppinions either way.

Gary D.

[Pixie]

I'm sorry for being ignorant here but what are the purposes of the registry?

:)

[gonesnakee]

I think that the registry that is probably supposed to help reptile enthusists can hurt us as well. It gives everyone in the world access to info. on animals you keep & futhermore when the govt. at whatever level be it Municipal, County/M.D., Provincial or Federal decide to just up & change the laws on whats legal to keep (ask B.C. people what the govt. has been upto there lately), it gives them a big list of animals to go around & confiscate at their will. I'm not saying that the database is a negative thing or that the above will happen, but beware that it can be used as a tool againest us as well. Remember Big Brother "IS" watching you. Chances are they will even read this post, as it is a known fact that Provincial Fish & Game authorities (amongst others) read these forums regularily & use them to gather info & sometimes to track & confiscate "illegal animals" etc. also. Just remember there are just as many (if not more) people out there that would just as soon see all of us without any Herps at all. My thoughts on the subject anyhow. Sorry to be the one to present the negatives, but they must be acknowledged. My thoughts.
Mark I.

[Gary D.]

Agreed, and that same apprehension is largely what caused the failure of the previous registeries. The information contained would never be available to any individual, group or organization with out first the authorization of the individual. Meaning someone wants to contact you about one of your animals, he contacts me first. Any pertenant information about individuals or locations would never be put on line. As I understand it the only way big brother would be able to force access to private information is through a court order or a warrant. And those would have to be issued through a federal court. In order for a federal court to be involved, it has to be in connection to a federal offense. I am clarifying this with those who are better knowledgeable of the legal system than I am. But unless you are smuggling CITES animals or somehow using your herps to rob a bank, steal mail, or kill someone, it's just paranoia.

I would also think it unwise to register an animal that you posesss illegally, regardless of how secure the registery is, and however much the registry might appreciate having the knowledge of that animal's existance. But then it is not too likely that those animals will be widely represented in, or contributing to the captive gene pool anyway.

Pixie,
The primary purpose would be for breeders to track, maintain and acquire animals. Naturally as hobbiests, many of us who do not earn our livelyhoods with reptiles, breed, sell and swap animals too. There are many excellent animals and dedicated breeders out there, but who do not have the credibility they deserve because they are not a commercial breeder. Naturally the well respected breeders like Don Patterson, Hammil Reptiles, etc. will be more than welcome to register (and advertise their animals once the site is functional), but this evens the playing field for the dedicated little guy too. It also broadens the market for us to purchase quality animals for our collections, from sources we may not have been aware of before, and better knowledge of what it is you are buying. A good deal for free.

[Gary D.]

Also Mark, thank you for voicing those concerns as I am trying to deal with them and they can only make the system better.

Now as to the special interest groups who often focus on constrictors as large and dangerous animals to be banned, having a recognised registery will only help by bringing credibility to the hobby, and take away some of their influence. Being organized and registered breeders of exotic animals is far better for us than being "that weird guy who keeps giant, scarry reptiles locked up in his basement". It might even help out in the long run with municipalities trying to impose stupid bylaws.

[Gary D.]

I neglected to mension that the software I am working towards will also keep and track geneology and maintain an accurate stud book. For those of us who have imported animals (B.c.c. in my case) this aspect will be a nice feature for maintaining pure bloodlines. Import animals and offspring will noted as such. And for Morph breeders, they will be better able to track and acquire hets and other investment animals.

[Mardy]

That sounds good, we need to be solid together to beat these people trying to ban many of are animals.
Also with so many small gene pools in Canada it would help breeders keep good genetic stock.
I also fell that as a group we will have to start
following the laws/bylaws set out or we will lose what we can now keep. It may not be great but as long as were the local "freaks" we have no voice.


Mardy

[tabastifur]

That's sounds sweet. Do it up.

[gonesnakee]

Excellent points Gary. It can definately be an advantage that I myself may find useful also. I just wanted to make sure that people were aware of the "darkside" as well. I know in AB from talking to Paul Lupyczuk, Conservation Officer 1 - Calgary District, that animals that had been previously kept legally are now becoming illegal as a result of the govt. refusing to renew expiring permits. The way I understood it he was telling me was they decided to stop renewing permits. So say you have a large Boid that was legally aquired & had proper permits in place. The time period comes up for renewal. They won't renew it. Now you have an illegal animal (?), that they can legally take at their discertion(?). He indicated that they were not going out & doing this, but were using it as a fast method to take animals that they thought should be confiscated for the "proper" reasons such as very poor husbandry etc. etc. So they opened up a door for themselves legally thats kind of scary actually. It sounds like they had good intentions, but it could also be abused. This doesn't affect me directly, but I did not like the sounds of it. The whole conversation I think was approx. 2 years ago when I ran into him dealing with a small Caiman he had confiscated. What do you of this example Gary? Was I not hearing him right or is there truth to this? I would hate to be the guy having my expensive whatever be taken away because the govt. decided to screw me out of it by not renewing my permits. I don't know of any cases where this has been applied "unjustly" but I do know certain people are definitely not worthy out there so maybe it will help out some animals in need of it. Some more tidits to stir into the pot anyhow Gary. Oh & I like being one of the local freaks LOL, normal people are boring!:p Mark I.

[Gary D.]

Yes that's certainly convenient for Fish and Wildlife, but I do tend to believe them when they say that they have no intention of policing the herp hobby, unless there specific complaints about an individual. There is no doubt in my mind that Fish and Wildlife for the most part don't give a feeder item's hindquarters about us. It is my understanding that they feel that pets, regardless of species, order, class or phylum, should be the City animal control officer's problems. They are far more concerned with renewable resource management, poaching and hunting/fishing violations. They are under manned and under funded for that, and begrudgingly deal with "domestic" issues. If he were to say that they don't want to re-issue permits simply because it's a waste of their time and resources, it wouldn't sound so good, but is likely more the truth. What he offered was probably their justification for changing the system.

[Scales Zoo]

Hi Gary.

I will also play "devils advocate" as "Mr. Government Conspiracy Theory guy Mark" does so well.

Would all offspring have to be micro chipped? At the very least - I think it should be an option that would be used by a lot of people.

It would help confirm that a certain snake came from a certain clutch - and stop potentially unscrupulous traders from offering a boa that was het for glow in the dark - when in fact they kept their papered glow in the dark snake, but sold a pet store import to some unsuspecting curator of a glow in the dark project.

Ryan

[gonesnakee]

I agree with Ryan despite his possible/probable involvements with "Secret Underground Government Plots" conspired just to aggitate me! LOL In order to have an accurrate system in place microchipping would probably be a must, especially with het animals. Mark I.
P.S. Hey Ryan want to buy some 100% het for piebalds really cheap, they have lots down at Petland. LOL M.I.

[Gary D.]

Hey Ryan,

In answer to your question, no animals will be required to be microchipped to be registered. Although I am a strong proponent of microchipping, myself being the first person I am aware of to microchip an entire litter of boas last year, (a program I intend to continue with for the 14 we just had on Wedsnesday), and my continuing association with the great people at Avid Canada. They are also helping with the planning and set up of the registry and database and will be sharing my table at the TARAS show.

I encourage all breeders to do this, but it is an unreal expectation.

It will be our policy to not deny any legal boid or keeper the opportunity to participate unless they have been proven to have intentionally misrepresented an animal or any part of it's genetics or lineage. I do not recommend anyone register an animal which they knowingly possess illegally, as it may open up a whole other can of worms. That scenario is still being reviewed, but illegal animals will likely be rejected without proof of permits.

On the registeration form it outlines the requirements for identifying an animal, both microchipped and not. For those which are not, a series of no less than four digital photos must be submitted, and will be kept on that animals permenant file. Updates and additional photos wil be accepted as well. I hope to post the registration forms soon. In the meantime please check out Linda's registery forms at the American Boa Registery, as ours are very similar.

[Gary D.]

Preach it to the world Guys!! Microchipping is inexpensive and proves 100% reliable identification. I 'chip all of mine.

[Scales Zoo]

Hey Mark - I can tell if it is het for piebald by just looking at it (can't you, cause if you can't, you suck), and those snakes aren't het for piebald.

Congrats on the new boa baby's Gary - and by the way, I am considering microchipping a few of our higher priced breeder snakes, and a few future clutches.

Ryan

[gonesnakee]

To be truthfull I must suck because I can't tell for sure. I'm pretty sure I read that it has something to do with the eyes, but I am not knowing? Enlighten me/us Ryan. Me & Kyle may also consider doing some microchipping this year as well if everything continues to go well with the E. Indigo eggs. Mark I.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Sounds like an interesting project, guys. On the microchipping, though, keep in mind that an unscrupulous person who wants to cheat could remove the chip from one animal (the het for glow in the dark?) and insert it into another prior to sale. Also, microchips aren't that cheap. At $7-10 per chip (last time I checked, anyway), that can add up pretty fast if you have a lot of animals. Digital photos are cheaper, and likely just as reliable. Few people have microchip scanners anyway, but everyone's got a computer at this point to view pics on.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Gary D.]

Removing a microchip is not that easy. First, microchips nowadays have a coating which enables growing tisue to attach to the chip ans actually heal to the chip itself. Removal of a chip would be a risky surgery at best and by far not worth risking the original animal to falsify another. Also depending on how and where the chip was implanted would also make this a difficult or fatal procedure. Microchipping neonates is a tricky procedure comparitively to adult snakes. With neonates you must implant the microchip into the body cavity ov the animal which would certainly result in death if removed by anyone other than an experienced vet.

And yes it is more costly and risky to microchip, but I believe the bennefits far out weigh the drawbacks. Yes, digital photos are the norm and as such the database requires four specific pictures to be included for identification, but it is not at all close to the accuracy of microchip identification. In addition one digital photo must accompany the microchip ID for the registeration paperwork.

I will post a notice when the web site for the Canadian Boid Genetics Database is up. In the meantime any questions or requests can be directly sent to cdnbiodregister@hotmail.com aswell.

[Tim and Julie B]

This is a very interesting subject. If every other animal can be papered and registered then why not reps. Hell my friends cockatiel is papered for **** sakes. I would love to keep blood lines/locales pure before we end up with all BCI's being blended together like some of the other reps. I think if you have illegal herps you would be smart enough to keep that knowledge to a select few people (I hope). But like here in Kelowna they are going to ban BCC's for some insane reason. If I had it registered that I owned them, that could be used against me. Are ther privacy laws that can protect a client list? But I think the positives far out weigh the negitives. So it would cost about $10 a snake? That is pretty resonable. So Gary does that mean the little guy I got from you is chipped? Better not try to take it through any metal detectors! Haha:DTim.

[Gary D.]

As we are a private database, the information is not public knowledge, and thus can not be acquired from me without involved federal proceedings. So registering an animal is completely secure and confidential. I do agree that if you own any animal illegally, it would be wise to keep that information to your self. As far as the cost of registeration, I register for free, however I will charge $1 for each certificate to cover the cost of the materials and postage. To those who are waiting, please bare with me, you will recieve you certificates soon.

As for is your animal chipped, well not yet. He was still a bit young at the time of the show. But if you bring him with you the next time you are through town I will do it for you. If that's not convenient, I will mail you an applicator which you can take to your vet of choice and have it done there.

[Tim and Julie B]

Cool Gary. I guess that answers the only negative thing I could think of. All in all though your idea is a good one and I hope everyone jumps on board. By the way that little boa is awsome! He has never tried to bite me yet and he is quite a good eater! Gergous little guy as well. Thank you very much!

[gonesnakee]

Hi Gary & everyone else. Reading the topic updates & thought I'd play "Devil's Advocate" again. Talking to my "Bible Thumping" buddies the other day & microchips came up. According to them they are tools of the Devil & are considered "The Mark Of The Beast" as per their interpretation of the Bible & are one of the "signs" of the beginning of the end. In their opinions it would be sacrilege to "Put the Devil's Mark into any of God's creatures" & such blasphemy should not be acceptable at any level. I lisened & humoured them, but don't take them too seriously. Interesting tidbit though. Mind you they also think that I shouldn't go to see "Ozzy Osbourne" tonight because he is the "Anti-Christ", but that's another story. LOL Hows the registry going so far Gary? Good Luck with it & watch out for "Religous Fanatics". Mark I.

[Gary D.]

hahahaha "devil's advocate" good pun. I thought the tatoos issued in german prison camps were the mark of the beast and that we were already nearing the end of the world as that was nearly 60 years ago.

Actually that quite surprises me, I would have thought any zealot that fanatical would be so busy condemning serpents that they would be in favour of us identifying them with the mark of the beast, just making their job that much easier.

Here's a question to ponder. If a tatoo is the mark of the beast then how do they interpret the fact that I have a guilded cross tatooed on my left shoulder, proclaiming God's place in my life? Hmmnn?

I could go on with this, but alas this is not the forum for philisophical debates. As the saying goes, beware the man with just one book.

Now personally I will begin worrying when I hear of an astronomer named Wormwood. *wink*

[gonesnakee]

The whole "Mark of the Beast" thing stemmed from a "Mad Cow" conversation. I have a feeling it won't be very long until every single cow is chipped, which if they already were, the whole Mad Cow thing would have been dealt with & over by now. I think there will be new microchipping standards coming into place in lots of industries in the very near future. Mark