Leos and Junk Food (Or IS it?)

[Samba]

Hey guys,

Well I've been keeping Leopard Geckos now for several years and up until recently I didn't think their feeding schedule/foods offered were different in any way until I had a friend over at the rescue 'center' the other day.

I was feeding my leos crickets, and afterwards I gave them some yogurt as a treat (all but Darwin loves the yogurt). She commented that it was bad for them because of the enzymes contained in yogurt. Now, I don't claim to know everything and I don't offer my leos yogurt all the time(once in a month or two), but I've never seen any ill effects from it, the leos love it (esp. the fruit flavored ones), and it's high in calcium/low in fat/sugars.

While we are on the subject, I also feed my leos baby food as a treat maybe once a month. On the holidays I might offer them small pieces of ham or turkey. I just like to give them treats every once in a while to keep their lives exciting (I also practice 'enrichment' with my geckos because I believe they get bored like the rest of us). I guess I don't believe a straight diet of insects is completely natural (maybe in the wild they lick up tree sap or sample fallen fruits, maybe they help themselves to carion once in awhile...) I've noticed that leos in particular seem 'open' to trying new foods. So, at that, I wanted to know what you guys think... do you feed your leos different foods? Keep in mind these are occasional, minimal amounts I give them, and they aren't actually offered as meals. By the way if anyone has specific information on the yogurt/enzymes leopard gecko subject, please, let me know. Thanks everyone, I look forward to hearing from you!

[Alicewave]

IMO, Plain yogurt and chicken or turkey baby food is ok. I don't think sugar is good for them. I havn't tested that or anything but there is very little sugar in their natural diet (moths scorpions etc) that I don't think it's a good idea to feed fruits or fruit flavored yogurt. I also dont think Leos get bored. They can get picky but I don't think they have the mental capacity to feel boredom, a stomach ache from being fed foods their bodies weren't made to handle yes, but boredom no. About ham or turkey...I dunno...very small pieces may not hurt them but again those foods are very difficult to digest. Ham also contains a lot of salt which could dehydrate them.

These treats once in a great while may not hurt them but I see no benefit to it unless a leo is not feeding in general for some reason, and even in that case, their are better choices out there. I'm not trying to criticize and I could be wrong, it's just my opinion based on common sense.

[Atheris Hispida]

hmm...That is wierd i have never heard or thought of feeding my leo human food like yogurt but i will try it some day..

[Tim and Julie B]

I can see plain yogurt, but they should never have fruit based yogurts. The baby food is okay, but stick with the mixed fruit flavor or apricot. You shouldn't give them the other kinds. They also shouldn't have meats such as ham and turkey. They will have a hard time digesting the proteins in it and can cause them a lot of harm. The enzymes in the yogurt are actually alive, and when fed to the lizards they can kill the natural enzymes in their stomachs. They need the natural enzymes to digest their meals. If you like to offer treats I would suggest something more appropriate. 1 or 2 wax worms once a month, baby roaches 1-2 times per month, newly molted meal worms 1-2 times per week, silk worms 1-2 times per wek. All these items are designed to fit their nutritional needs and are easily digested by them. I hope this answers some of your questions.:D
JulieB.

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by Tim and Julie B
I can see plain yogurt, but they should never have fruit based
yogurts. The baby food is okay, but stick with the mixed fruit flavor or
apricot. You shouldn't give them the other kinds.

The enzymes in the
yogurt are actually alive, and when fed to the lizards they can kill the
natural enzymes in their stomachs. They need the natural enzymes to
digest their meals.



No offence, but enzymes are not alive, never were and never will be.
They are numerous complex proteins that are produced by living cells and
catalyze specific biochemical reactions at body temperatures. You might
be thinking of 'live bacterial cultures' in the yogurt (versus
dead/pasteurized bacteria and/or gelled yogurt which is produced without
bacterial cultures). The live bacteria will convert the lactose and to
some extent, the protein in the milk to a more digestible form, making
it completely safe for the geckos to eat. In all the years I've given
live culture yogurt to any of my geckos, they've never had problems with
it. It's a staple part of my Rhacodactylus geckos diets, and my adult
leopard geckos get it as a treat, breeding females get it weekly.

What's the difference between feeding fruit based yogurt and fruit baby
food? Why would fruit baby food be okay, plain yogurt is okay, but fruit
yogurt isn't? Compare the nutritional values and you'll see the yogurt
is much better.

I've read many articles about wild leos eating fruit, but here's a quote
from 'another forum' posted in July 2001.
The info in this quote goes along with everything I've read on the
subject. If you want the URL, I'll supply it, but won't post it here for
obvious reasons. The post quotes an email from Dr Frye to the person
posting the info, and knowing the poster, I have absolutely no doubt
about the validity of the email and info contained in it (in other
words, I'm willing to vouch for the info) :


According to Dr. Frederic L. Frye, DVM., PhD., MSc., CBiol., FIBiol.,
FSRM., and Professor of Comparative Reptile Veterinary Medicine and
Pathobilology at UC Davis Veterinary School, author of countless books
and probably the most reputable Reptile Scientist in the world,
(whew!)Leopard Geckos are OMNIVOROUS in the wild. The following are
direct excerpts of his e-mail correspondence to me, which also addresses
the question regarding the subject of feeding Leos fruits and baby food:
----------------------


It should also be noted that under natural (wild) conditions, leopard
geckos consume substantial quantities of fruits, nectar, pollen, grubs,
miscellaneous winged insects, and spiders---not crickets. The most
common native fruits are mandarin, persimmon, fig, pistachio, loquat and
cactus pear that has fallen.

Most any tropical fruit, as well as soft, ripe stone fruits are
acceptable. Also, don't forget that fruit nectar, scraped mango, soft
figs, peach, nectarine, apricot, pear, etc., are all appropriate, or if
necessary, strained baby foods containing these fruits can/should be fed
a couple of times weekly; you can add whatever mineral supplement to
these soft, tasty goodies. Also, they make a splendid vehicle for
supplementing their diet with calcium lactate, calcium gluconate,
calcium carbonate, etc.


Sincerely yours,
Frederic L. Frye



((snips left out))

Over the years, yogurt and fruit have been mentioned by the 'big name' breeders on the GGA list as an acceptable food treat or supplement for leos.

[Tim and Julie B]

The reason that fruit based yoguts are unhealthy is because of the added sugar, something good baby food will not contain, and as far as the yogurt goes, they all contain sugar, and i was told by a veternarian that the yogurt is very bad, so I went with my vet. That is where I learned about the enzymes were active ingredients. If you can recommend a brand of yogurt that would be great, as I am not sure what you mean by gel based yogurt. Is lactose not sugar? If so how is that good for a lizard? I have heard horror stories about sugar(from fruits) in reptile diets that led to death. Please give me more info.Thanks DrgDrop.

[Alicewave]

DragnDrop, no offense or anything but I'd like to read a second opinion that Leopard Geckos are omnivorous in the wild. Not to say that your source is not valid but so far everything I have read is the complete opposite, and it's only one article. I don't believe for a second that they eat any type of fruit voluntarily since their feeding response is based on movement and I have talked with people who've had to rescue leos who got very sick from their owners feeding them fruits and other inappropriate food items. I agree with Tim and Julie. If you want to feed a treat to your geckos feed them the occasional waxworm or silkworm.

[Tim and Julie B]

Thanks Alicewave, I was beggining to think I was the only one who thought this! Although I have heard that leos like baby food(mixed fruit or aprcot) mixed with calcium. I have decided not to even try it though, as my leos are very healthy the way they are. what diet do you have yours on? It's nice to see what works for other people.

[Alicewave]

Well only for force feeding purposes I have fed Chicken baby food with no onions. I think it's easier for them to digest than an actual chunk of chicken since it's already pureed for them. I prefer Enteral insectivore by Walkabout Farms, (www.herpnutrition.com). Susan Donaghue is practically the guru when it comes to reptile nutrition. Enteral Insectivore actually contains superior nutrition to just about any insect diet you could provide because she has formulated it specifically for insectivores, she also has formulas omnivores, like bearded dragons. I would totally feed this exclusively but I think it's an important part of a gecko's wellbeing to hunt down its food, gives em a little exercize.

Myself, I feed almost exclusively mealworms which I have bred myself and have been gutloaded with wheat germ, fish food, and carrot slices for moisture. I feed occasional wax worms and crickets for variety. I would love to start feeding silkworms, from what I have heard they contain the most complete nutrition you can get from an insect. If I see them at the next reptile show I may pick some up and see how my kids like em.

[Samba]

Hey Guys!

Didn't mean to start a debate here but you all made interesting and note-worthy points! Personally, I believe leopard geckos aren't strictly insectivorious. While I have no doubt that the majority of their diet consists of insects, I do not believe, under 'natural' conditions that they limit themselves to just that.

I'm sure we all here have witnessed their powerful and persistant curiosity, and I might add as well, Alicewave, that Leos don't always need something wiggling in front of them to know it's food (or edible for that matter). Mine eat food that doesn't move (like a drop of baby food on my finger) or a mealworm grub laying around. They aren't dumb, and as a matter of fact, I think they're some of the smartest geckos around (as far as reptile intelligence goes).

I don't believe sugar can be completedly eliminated from a Leos diet, and I don't believe it would be healthy if one could do so anyways. (Although I agree that adding a lot of sugar to their diet can be destructive and isn't a smart thing to do.) And just while we're on the subject of sugar, I think it important to mention that moths (mentioned above) as well as most insects they may consume; eat almost exclusively necter and sugar-based meals from flowers/plants. I understand where you guys are coming from, and I agree, most care sheets on Leos almost never mention fruits, necters, sugars, meats, etc. in the diet.

I have heard of wild Leos being observed eating carion, pinkies and small hatchlings, although the source of those accounts couldn't be traced I don't completely discredit it. Given the fact I don't have to 'twist their arms' so to speak, to eat yogurt, baby foods and small amounts of meats; one can conclude that a wild leo might eat similar things on an oppertunistic basis.

And back to why I give my leos treats like these: I think it makes their lives a little more exciting. It may not do anything nutritionally for them (or it may... the debate goes on), but I think my leos deserve the chance to be enriched. It may sound corny or overly sympathetic to some, but one thing I know everyone here will agree with: it's not natural for them to sit inside a 10, 20, or even a 50 gallon tank all day with little or no variation to their terrain, little or no variation in their diet, and little exercise. Even if Leopard geckos don't have the 'mental capacity' to become bored, I don't allow mine to have the chance.

As for DragnDrop: I would like to learn more about Dr. Frye and his professional opinions. If you could please e-mail me sometime (SambasReptileRescue@Hotmail.Com) I would appreciate the correspondance. This is a subject I can really get into and want to learn as much about it as possible.

Everyone else: Wether we agree or disagree you have all made very interesting and valid points. I thank all of you for your candid opinions and hope this discussion goes on. I welcome any comments/criticizims/suggestions/stories/etc.