Steve Erwin A Fake?

[ballpython5000]

i watch croc hunter all the time and i see all the ******** things he does withs hots. i remember seeing this somewhere but i cant remember where. someone said he uses venomoids and most of the show is setup. i thought about it while watching him handle a bunch of hots like a total moron. any respectable herper wouldnt run up to a wild hot and grab it by the tail and play with it "what a beauty" and i notice how they have the camera focused on the snake before steve even sees it, then it shows him running over to where the camera is acting like he just found it. imo that show is total bull and loads of it is setup, not all but most. and the way he wrestlers with gators! omg he must be on something to run and tackle a gator or steal their eggs. he also claims he hasnt been envenomated, with the way he handles those hots that is suprising. i guess he doesnt count being bitten by a void then. im gonna stick to jeff corwin he isnt as ******** and fake s steve.
to think that loser was my hero a few years back......

[NewLineReptile]

jeff corwin i think is way better then steve but i watch steve waiting for the dumb @ss to get a bite then i bet he will think twice about useing a "TWIG" insted of a real snake stick lol

[Emily-Fisher]

Yes...I agree. The entire show is set up. have you seen the rattlesnake episode? All of a sudden, Terry says "Look, there's another one over there!" and her and steve start running for about two minutes down cliffs and over bushes and for en entire two minutes, all you see is them running. Now who in the world can run like that?! Certainly not me! I hate the way that he treats the snakes but I like the lizard episodes =)

[Leo-Land]

Criecky!

[jpaulson]

Um, guys, you may call it a set up, but I call it editing. Just like hunting and fishing shows, you are not going to get animals to cooperate for the TV. There may be 3 days of filming, searching for animals, finding the perfect shot, etc. before it goes to the studio and gets edited for TV.

I am not sure if he is a fake or not, but I do agree that he is nuts. Then again, so is anyone that handles hots on a regular basis...(For you, BWSmith)! IMO, though, thats one of the things that makes that show interesting to watch. Kudos to him, or anyone, that can handle reptiles like that!!

[Emily-Fisher]

Hmmm...you DO have a point. I still think that he is nuts though :P

[BWSmith]

he he he, JP.

A great deal of his show and other shows is set up. I remember one in particular when he came to a log and said "This the perfect habibat for a little Death Adder..... OH LOOK, here's one now" lol. The setup may not be as bad as paople think. IT may be a matter of finding it and then doing commentary or show a chase (like when he tripped on a barbed wire fence while sprinting and his camera guy was already on the other side).

I will not get into other opinions about Steve at this time. Because I could write a book on the problems I have with him and a paragraph on what i like. For all the Irwin fans, try doing alot of Educational Programs, you will feel one aspect of my Irwin pain.

[eyespy]

Steve and Terri Irwin are very active in the zoo community and when the Philadelphia Zoo had a terrible fire which burned down their primate house on a Christmas Eve some years back they were among the first to jump in and offer assistance.

There's a lot more to them than is apparent on the show and I respect their work in conservation and captive breeding. It makes how Steve handles herps a little easier for me to take.

[marisa]

I agree with BWSmith, most of the nature programs are set up.

One night I was watching a sea life program, and they started showing how Sea Horses court each other and what not. Then I did a double take because when I looked closely I saw a fishing line moving one of the horses around. I dunno, I felt cheated. *LOL*

Marisa

[reverendsterlin]

my only problem with Erwin is that his show is somewhat targeted to younger audiences and the dangerous handling practices he uses could be imitated by some of these kids to everyones regret. I do respect his conservation efforts and the time and money he invests to help animals and facilities around the world.

[reptilesalonica]

You cannot take a camera and run even if it looks like that. The whole thing is setup from a director with script and a crew of people who work in television. The show is constituted by different scenes. Between the scenes they "cut" prepair the next one and continue like that. The animals are not wild but taken from ranchers. He looks like a moron but i think he does a good job because he is targeting to children. That way, they learn some things correctly before they get into the herp hobbie. reverendsterlin: He always points the fact that what he does is a matter of many years experience with reptiles and no one should try to catch venomous snakes like those. I work in television 10 years now as a cameraman-director.
~Greg~

[boa]

you all should be happy about him atleats he is the one doing that cool stuff along with that he teaches alot of people and children the ways about nature i think he is great i learn somethings from that man must of you's would not even attempt holding those reptiles.

[Big Mike]

Like him or not...reptiles are a lot more popular now than they were before he was on TV. Real or Fake...he does preach conservation of animals and their habitat. Even people who say they don't like him seem to know a lot about his shows... ;)

[snakelover111]

i still like steve cause he has his own zoo,3tvshows and hes super rich. so what if the camera saw it first.

[Tim_Cranwill]

bp5000?, why are you so mad? (pst... It's a television show.... It's just entertainment. ;)) If you don't like it, don't watch it. Do you hate Hulk Hogan just because his matches are fixed?

[BWSmith]

must of you's would not even attempt holding those reptiles.
And even those of us that do work with venomous would not handle them the way he does. It is taking uneeded risks. We try to use proper and safe handling tactics.

I will admit that his show brought herps (particularly hots) into the public eye. But it has caused a great deal of ill effects as well, not because of his show, but because of his reckless handling tactics. I cannot remember the last time I watched an entire episode. In general, within 5 to 10 minutes I see something so reckless and stupid that I have to change the channel. I was disappointed that I did watch the entire Eastern Diamondback Episode, but my wife made me change the channel because I was yelling the TV too loud, litterally.

[BWSmith]

OK, if anyone is up for a LOOOOOOONG read, I got one for ya.

This was a post I did on ReptileHaven. I even put up alink on the Steve Irwin Fan Site just to get some opinions from fans ;) I know, I am a trouble maker. :D

Steve Irwin: Friend or Foe (http://reptilehaven.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB_14&file=index&action=viewtopic&topic=7690&68127)

[reptilesalonica]

I cannot agreed with you BW Smith on some parts. I saw many times Steve Irwin's show and i believe that he is doing a very good job. What people can or want to understand from what he offers is their problem and their responsibility. If children saw 10 episodes of Croc Hunter and go to a dealer to buy hot snakes then Steve Irwin is not responsible neither kids. If the herp dealer wants to make money and do not respect his own job by selling hots to kids then THEY are responsible for the future banning in venomous snakes. In this point i can only agree that Steve Irwin don't handle the snakes properly and this is a bad example for others that see him, especialy children. Like you said, "Education is the key" and "Herp community has many enemies and few allies."
~Greg~

[DavidBeard]

How about if you don't like his show, then DON"T WATCH it. Quit bitching and find something better to do.

[BWSmith]

I tried the whole "Ignore the problem and it will go away" thing once, doesn't really work to well. If it was mearly a harmless show that I did not like, then not watching works for me. That is why I have never seen an episode of American idol or Survivor. The difference is that there are actually RESULTS from his program that i often have to deal with and dispell. I have never seen anyone get bitten by a microphone because someone on American Idol was holding wrong.

[rattekonigin]

I say if anybody is stupid enough to go out and grab the first wild snake they see because they saw Steve Irwin do it (regardless of whether it's venomous or not, because most "lay-people", if you will, can't tell the difference anyway) and, as a result, gets envenomated and dies, well they deserved it...I have 2 words, people: "Darwin Awards"

[JD@reptiles]

Just to point out one thing you guys spell Steve Irwin wrong all the time lol. but i agree he is a dumbass.

Jordan

[BWSmith]

ahhhhh, that is what I like, differing opinions ;) And it has even stayed civil for the most part!

[Alicewave]

I think he has done a lot to promote conservation and to educate kids but I cannot for the life of me understand why he does not engage in more cautious handling practices. It's inexcusable and it wouldn't be that difficult to fix and I doubt that it would detract from the show one bit.

[Tim and Julie B]

Well I agree that I don't like some of his tactics like making the cobra regurge another cobra so he can show it on TV. It might be a little staged. Think about it no snake = no show. He probably has a group of people looking then does commentary after it's found. But you can't stage some of the things he does like moving crocs. It can't be staged because they can't be predicted. He is not my favorite but all I have to say is watch the episode were he rescues those crocs in Indo from they're discusting garbage ridden mud puddles and puts them in a brand new facility with a trained staff. That he paid for. If that doesn't at least make you respect or like him a little then you aren't a true herp lover. He does tons of rescues and conservation efforts. His good far out ways the bad! His snake handling techniques are a little primative but remember were he is from and how he learned. It wasn't in a controled environment. But I agree that he should broaden his handeling equipment (stick vs snake hook) but if that is what he is comfertable with it and used to it then I can see why ( I don't agree though). Lets not forget that he has never been bitin. True or not. He still handels a lot of hots successfully. We might not agree but we aren't lisenced herpitologists (sp). Remember the Yin and the Yang. With every good there is a little bad. With every bad there is a little good. That's what keeps it all balanced. He does more good then bad. Anyways I'm done.-Tim.

By the way I agree with a lot of what you guys have said. I am not trying to dispute it. Just look beyond it for a second. And how come no ones fav. is O'Shea or Brady Barr? No National Geographic channel?:D

[unknownclown]

You know its his recklessness that has made him so popular and famous and therefore opening the eyes to non herpers in helping them understanding them and with that see the beauty in these quite misunderstood creatures. Everyone who sees the show thinks to themselves "Oh my god this guy is insane!"
The kids love it I see kids that want to grow up and be just like him which I think is great and an excellent oppertunity for the adults to inform them of how crazy Steve realy is. I too would be scared if a bunch of kids after seeing his show ran outside with sticks to play with rattle snakes. But most likely 9 times outta 10 the kids who live in rattlesnake areas have developed an early respect/fear of them and know to give them their space or should be supervised by the parents outside until they do develop the propper respect/ fear of them.
I guess I could go both ways I can see him both being a good and bad influence on kids, I say kids because adults should know better ;)
Wheather its fake... I realy dont care. I mean how would you like it if you watched him wonder around and found nothing durring the whole show. Actually it could be sorta funny in a boring kinda way :p But I see no problem if they go out search for the animals ahead of time and afterwards do the scenes. I also dont think it matters to me if they take the animals from the zoo and plant them there and do the segments. I still get to drool over the different species laugh at his stupidity and hope just once I get to see him get nipped from being overly arrogant with the handling. I love it when a little lizzard attaches its self to Steves nose!

[marisa]

O.k but each day on TV I see demolition shows, I see South American tribe shows, showing kids swimming in piranha infested waters, I see shows talking about extreme sports, all these shows have one thing in common with Steve...they are all trying to explain something that can kill you. Much in the same way Steve handles a snake, they show you how they hook up dynamite.

Whats to stop some demolition nut from trying it? Whats to stop a reptile nut from trying it?

So with in that respect I can say no more about his shows without saying the same thing about a million other shows on TV. Venemous snakes aren't the only things out there that can kill, that are shown in TV daily. Its one of those things you can't stop.

Marisa

[Dozer]

Dumbass, I wouldn't say, hes done so much for any species of animal that we dont even know about... you cant just look at what he does in his shows, look at the whole of things, and if you dont like it, its all good, I beleive its more editing rather then setups... but then again, beleive its not and you'll enjoy the show more...

[BWSmith]

I have no issues with the placing of animals, and I applaude all that he has done and does for conservation. None of that is what concerns me.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

...Personally, I think Irwin shouldn't of gotten out of his main interest. Crocodilians. I aw very little things he did wrong with them.. Besides getting bit on the foot but accidents happen especially 9' Porosus worth of adrenaline... And for the post on jumping gators and crocs, when you have worked with these animals you'll understand, and for stealing eggs.. He's permitted to. Besides the taking of the eggs and artificially incubating them has given nearly 100% hatch rate to Gators and Salties. Irwin was my favorite then because he wasn't worried about ratings and makig money. He was drawn into it..
Him and hot snakes do not match for obvious reasons..
And by the way Dr. Brady Barr is my favorite. The only thing I don't like is the fact that he often uses a barbed spear to catch crocodilians.. But he's new, given time I sure he'll rule over..
(Adam Britton is my dad)
All in all I like all the intertaining herpers as well as hate them..
Xain.
ps.. I hate the fact I have to retype a word several times to make it correct on these fourms.. Whats with that?

[Zoe]

How interesting would the show be if 90% of it was him prowling and trying to find a snake to show the camera? It's called editting, they cut up what they film to make something exciting and entertaining also for people who aren't huge herp fans.
Though I don't always agree with the way Steve treats the animals (like the episode in which he kept dragging a pissed-off cobra out a tree...), he does teach conservation and appreciation for wildlife, and obviously does a lot of work in the field saving animals.

Terry has GOT to change her hair, I must say.

Zoe

[Snake Lady]

The way I see it we can not forget that he needs ratings to keep his show on the air. So he needs to catch the attention of ppl.

Now I have seen him use hooks on many occasions.
I have also seen him back away from some snakes cause he knew it was a high risk just for a camara
Who know how many logs he turned and repeted that line B4 finding the snake he was looking for.
And we were not the one stoping a common brown in his tracks with our bare feet at (9 years old)

And kids want to grow up and be like him it is up to the parents to watch the show with there kids and say ''you see
he is a pro. and you can not do that yet you need to go to school to be like him'' when the 18-20 year old gets to university and starts to learn all the proper methods he/she will be able to meet steeve Irwin and say ''you were my Idol man but you are just crazy.''

steeve has a collection and he is doing what he needs to do to keep in thriving. In the process he educates ppl.
why complain? He is just doing what he has to do.

[BAZ]

I think Steve Irwin has done a lot for herpetology and to make people appreciate reptiles more. So what if a lot of the scenes are set up... it's show business too you know. Gotta make it entertaining to keep people glued to the sets. Kids love him and I think thats his main target audience. These kids will grow up to appreciate reptiles like he does and maybe they will become the next David Attenboroughs. I personally would rather watch Mark O'Shea, Jeff Corwin (thats one funny bloke!) and there is this other guy Bredle who calls himself the Barefoot Bushman. But you gotta give Steve his props for what he is doing.

You can have world respected people like David Attenborough watching Komodo Dragons through binoculars talking about them and then you have Steve pulling a hook out of ones mouth and being chased up a tree! lol. You gotta admit.. it's entertaining and when I am entertained I learn more and I appreciate more.

I agree with Zoe.. what the hells up with Terry's hair? bloody hell! Looks like she walked out a of a 1970s trailer park!

[Bryce Masuk]

As many have said its a show business if you dont have much of a love for reptiles but dont mind watching some nut case nearly get killed you will watch the show and learn and hopefully respect the animals I think its great steve respects the animals enough to nearly get killed by them so people will respect them and save there land he doesnt do it for money I bet he lives areasonable lifestyle and puts the rest into the zoo because zoo's always need more money

[snakelover111]

cranwills right

[jpaulson]

I applaud Snake Lady, because she hit the nail on the head, so to speak. It is all about ratings.

Why do people watch racing? For the wrecks, of course. Why do we watch open-heart operations on TV? To see the grossness from a safe place. Why do we watch horror films? The list goes on.

Lets admit it, people. We love Steve Irwin because he is so crazy, and each minute that goes by, you anticipate him getting nailed by a rattler or a croc. We FEED on this! The fact that he does this with some of the most dangerous creatures on this earth, in an educating way, just adds to the uphoria.

BW, you may not like some of his handling techniques, and I can understand that, knowing you and what you try to do to re-educate the public, but I still have to give him credit. He has found his "niche", and is working it well. He helps with conservation, zoos, education, and general knowledge. But, lets not forget one thing. He has been doing this for awhile now, handling all these animals, and he is still alive. You can edit all you want, but those ARE his hands on these cobras, mambas, croc's, and komodos.

[Gregg M]

Barr and O'Shea, Now those are two of the biggest idiots I have ever seen....... Barr gets bit on the face by a boa and uses trebbel hooks and barbed spears to catch crocs....... Not to mention he uses steal cable for top jaw ropes..... And now for O'Shea........ Even though he has a less "set up" show than the rest, I can not stand to see the way he manhandles snakes...... I thought he was going to pop a cobras head off one night....... He is also big on bragging about how many times he has been envenomated........ Like it is cool to be bitten by a venomous snake or something........ But I think the biggest reject out of all of them is that photografer that did the show on the deadly snakes of Africa......... He managed to get himself bitten twice in the same show by hot snakes and decided it was a good idea to jump on a swimming Gaboon viper........ I think Steve and Jeff are the best out there........ Hey my nephew would not pick up a wild garter in my yard because Steve said not to pick up snakes like he does....... Thats what he told me when I told him to grab that snake........

[jpaulson]

Lets not forget Dr. Brady Barr, from the National Geograhic Channel. I think he is the best one out there, now.

[DavidBeard]

Screw them all, I am the best. Oh man I rule.

[Gregg M]

LOL David............

[shaggybill]

No offense to anybody, but alot of you are condemning Steve Irwin, but you hold up Bill Haast as a god. I know that Bill Haast isnt on television everyday, but he still does his thing in front of tons of people at his shows.

Another thing is that Steve knows what he's doing. He grew up with these herps from day one and he knows how to handle them and when to back off. And I am having serious doubts that his snakes are venomoids. Thats just another urban legion that some moron whos jealous that he isnt as good as Steve made up. Some people have a way with animals that the rest of us cant have and Steve is one of the people. Wrestling crocs isnt as dangerous when you grew up with a dad like his and you practically lived with the crocs and know their dispositions. And I think he does a pretty good job of telling everybody that they should not do this and the only reason he can is because he is a professional at what he does.

I think what he does is absolutely awesome. Who cares if he finds the snakes first and then turns the cameras on. Thats not that big of a deal. Its a way of making the show run more smoothly. Nobody wants to watch 3 days worth of the crew walking around lifting logs while looking for snakes.

Anyways, thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree...

[mk-ultra]

first of all i think steve is doing a great job ... like he said in a lots of episodes all he wants to do is show us how beautiful these creatures are and that they are worth fighting for . he is not telling anyone that its a good thing to own a spitting cobra at home ... he is not telling anyone that snakes make good pets . he is just showing us what those snakes are . OK sometimes the way he handles some snakes can be really wild but lets not forget that some time he manage to calm down some really dangerous and aggressiv snakes . some will say HAAAA this is fake its impossible to do that with this species but who are you to say that anyway , probably none of us ever encountered a cobra in the wild so who are you to say thats not a good way to handle these species ... that is just the way he learned and he actually never got bitten . Once on the jeff corwin show they had a local guy with them to show them how to catch a king cobra with your bare hand ... he just puts his hand on top of the head of the cobra and push him down to the ground and then grabbed it ... that seemed really wild and crazy but the guy really seemed to know what he was doing and jeff was looking at him like WTF this is crazy but from my point of view it was a really good way to catch that snake but again none of us knows how these species respond to human in the wild and as for myself im not crazy enough to try to do all that stuff with venomous snakes after seeing what these guys are up to . so that is why i like steve cause he knows what he is doing and i can see some species of snakes that i will never be able to own and i also think that its not a good thing to criticise something that you dont know

like it or not thats my opinion

[stormyva]

Is Steve Irwin a fake, who knows, but what about a fake Steve Irwin?
http://www.stormyworld.net/redtail/me_crochunter.jpg
But really... I think Steve has done what he has set out to accomplish and that is bring herps in general to the forefront and bring about an awareness that was not there before he came along. Something else to ponder on.... maybe the crazy handling techniques he uses are to keep him on the tips of our tongues.... look at most herp sites and you will find that the longest running posts, like this one, are ones about Steve and his handling techniques.

[BWSmith]

Once on the jeff corwin show they had a local guy with them to show them how to catch a king cobra with your bare hand ... he just puts his hand on top of the head of the cobra and push him down to the ground and then grabbed it

Just as a side note, (in case anyone was wondering how that worked), King Cobras have a social structure and are very intelligent. The males combat for females. The dominant male pushes the head of another male down to show dominence. I have heard from many experienced King keepers that they have had to slap the males on the top of the head about once or twice a year and they calm down because they see the keeper as the dominant male. If the Cobra is dominant, woe behold the man that opens that cage! ;) Just a little FYI.

[shaggybill]

Thanks for that little piece of info, BW. I always wondered why that was the "best" way to catch a King Cobra, according to that Indian guy who did it. However, if I ever encounter one, I think I'll just stick with my hook...

When I saw that episode, I couldnt believe my eyes. I thought that guy was nuts but I guess he knew what he was doing...

[paul_le_snake]

imo, i think steve is a top fella! yes hes wacky and outlandish, but thats half the charm to him. ive heard so many stories about his show being faked, that he puts the snakes in fridges to cool them down and make them more calm. nonsense. when he was walking through the forest that had burnt down and he was finding skinks badly burnt or dead. that look in his eyes couldnt be faked. or the time he moved the 2 salties from small fould enclosures and moved them to new ones, he did that from a great love and respect fro reptiles. so what if some of his catches are set ups. mant natural history programs take months to film and these include several set ups. how many times do people see snakes eat in the wild? but how many shows have you seen that shows a snake eating.
oh well enough out of me for one night.
cheers
paul
ps i think mark o'shea is another top bloke. slightly mad, but aren't we all. again he is another guy lucky enough to be on tv after years and years of hard work and low pay working in zoos

[Leo-Land]

I like to watch him. He's amusing, which I think is the whole point.

[BAZ]

Ok now I am gonna have to bitch-slap some king cobras to show them who's da man! ;) lol

jk

[krrc]

sorry I dident read all the posts::

I have spoke to a guy who has worked with steve and he said he is very respectful of the animals, none of it is staged, and steve is a great guy to work with. I get the guys name if you want..

[ReptiZone]

Lets not forget he is in Australia he fids herps like we find squirels and skunks.

[BWSmith]

I will add one little side note.

I don't think that most people can understand my personal problems with Steve. I offer a great deal of educational programs. In fact Dept of Natural Resources told me that I clock more hours than anyone else in the state! And alot of that is Venomous Education. As a general rule, no venomous are removed from the enclosures during a program. But often, I let people go to the back of the room as i remove them from the tupperware and put them in the show enclosures. Gives them more of a feeling of how they move and react and definately helps in them paying attention during the programs. For one thing, not a program goes bywithout at LEAST 10 people asking about Steve or comparing me to him. Adults are not so bad. I can explain what each piece of handling equipment is and how and why I use it and explain WHY Steve has unsafe handling practices. Kids are the worst, particularly early teens. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard "Are you like the Croc Hunter?" or even worse(and most often) "Croc Hunter doesn't use anyof that stuff". I try to explain that his handling practices are dangerous and are NOT the "accepted" methods. But alot of eyes roll. Let's face facts. He is on TV. Of course it is entertainment, and he needs ratings to stay on the air. And yes he does his 2 second blurb of "I am a professional, don't do this". But another fact is that he is a HERO to many people. He is what many aspire to be. He may have been handling them his entire life, but others have not. And he is their "Video Mentor". As with anyonein the public eye, and particularly those are are considered "heros", there comes responsibility. He has got to think beyond himself. "Do as I say, not as I do" does not work. People learn by example. I have done and still do several handling techniques that I do not advertise. It is unlikely that you will ever see a pic of me pinning a hot posted on a forum. It is not because it is not done, I don't post them because it is the most dangerous part of venomous husbandry and it should be avoided if possible. So I don't want those aspiring hot keepers to think that it is commonplace or daily activity. I am very high profile, both on the internet and in real life. Because of that, I take a certain responibility to monitor what I say, what I do and what I post (once it is written, it is forever). And I am not alone. Many responsible hot keepers are very selctive of the same things. And for the same reason. I never want to hear (or read) "but, BWSmith did it".

And I also realize that adults should know the difference and parents should convey that the kids should not do that. Responsibility, blah, blah, blah. Reality check! Humans are idiots. And I know, Darwinism. But if Steve can save one idiot just by using a hook, isn't it worth it? After all, even if they are an idiot,they still deserve to live or the govt would be empty :D

Let me drop a few examples. Remember that these are off the top of my head from memory so some of the facts might not be 100% accurate, but the jist is the same.

In PA (I think), there was a rogue Alligator in a local pond (obviously a pet turned loose). So a local mother decided to take her two sons, I believe 10 and 14, to go try to catch it. She was quoted as saying "They watch Crocodile Hunter all the time, I am sure they can handle it".

A mountain biker (can't remember where), saw a rattler and decided to tail it. Got bit. Quaoted later as saying "Croc Hunter did it so I fugured I could too".

The list is endless. And yes, these are idiots. Luckily noone has died (to my knowledge) mimicking Steve. But it is only a matter of time. Idiots are everywhere.

I won't even go into the astronomical increase in the sale of venomoids since Steve became mainstream.

I appreciate all he has done for wildlife and conservation. He has done more than any of us could hope for in 10 lifetimes. But now that he is established, it is time to realize that he IS a hero to so many, and monkey see, monkey do. I would never ask that he give up any entheusiasm (sp) or passion. Or even not handle any type of species. But at least use a hook. Trust me, there is enough drama hooking an irate cobra. Even Boomslangs tend to "steal" hooks and we end up throwing bothe hte hook and the snake wrapped around the handle. I think that is exciting. Bottom line is that there is no need for not using a hook. Not using any handling equipment for his first run in with a LARGE adult Balck mamba ............. that was about the dumbest thing I have ever seen. It is not like any other snake he has ever dealt with. He can work with a thousand Taipans.... I tis NOT a mamba! Or holding a newborn Eastern Diamondback int he palm of his hand. And a thousand other examples. But I digress, I am getting off on a rant when I was about to close.

I know for a fact that Midwest (http://www.tongs.com) (the only handling equipment that I use), offered to send him a killer set of handling equipment for this very purpose. They even offered to not use it in advertising if he would just USE IT. No reply. I would bet everything that herequires his staff to use equipment when handling snakes in the zoo. How hard is it to use a freakin hook. It would not take away from the ratings. Use it once per episode and work up from there. I would actually be able to sit through an episode without yelling at the TV.

But to the original issue of staging. I have no problem with it. Just don't make it so obvious on occasion. And for the croc wrangling.......... i think he does good...... after you have worked with crocs and gators, if you have a better way, it would be welcomed by all "Big Game" Herpers. I guess I feel so strongly about his handling of venomous because it effects me directly and regularly.

Hopefully all of that made sense. My wrist hurts. ;)

[BWSmith]

After posting, I guess that was NOT a "little" side note.

But:

Lets not forget he is in Australia he fids herps like we find squirels and skunks.
I would venture to say that we can find more hot herps in South GA, FL, or TX in a day than they can in a week. All of the "visitors" say that the South (US) has some of the best herping in the world.

[marisa]

But my thing is those things are true for a MILLION different TV shows.

I have read when someone handles hots with a hook after YEARS and years, the hook becomes like more than a tool, and you can learn to use it much like the extension of your own hand, your own body. You have to be able to, to use the effectively. I don't keep hots so not sure if this is true or not. But on the premise that it IS indeed like this, maybe Steve was handling hot snakes from the age of 12 without a hook. Maybe its at a point for him where he can't use a hook ? He doesn't know how to use a hook ?

Does that make any sense? Like obviously being in the public eye he should have changed his methods and he COULE learn, but I figure there must be SOME reason why he refuses/doesn't, and I highly doubt he started freehandling just for ratings, and I am sure he was doing long before anyone was watching him. So thats all I could come up with. I haven't ever heard his reasoning. Maybe someone else has.

I am curious as to why he hasn't been bitten as well. And I wonder if he ever will be bitten in the future.

Marisa

[shaggybill]

Marisa, I think he hasnt been bitten for the very reason you just said. He has been free-handling snakes ever since he was a wee little boy and he knows what hes doing. I think you made a very good point about him maybe not being comfortable with a hook. Yeah, he could learn how, but maybe he likes how he does it and sees no need to change.

BW, you also made some good points about him being in the publics eye and such. This is a hard issue to decide where I stand.

[mk-ultra]

everybody has a lot of good points there i dont know a lot of people here and i never handled a hot myself and it will probably never happen . BWSmith you seem to know a lot about hots more then a lot of people here i hope that i did not offend you in any way cause it was not my intentions but you have a VERY good point by saying that people are stupid . lots of people want to give it a shot to see if they can do it like steve or any other crazy guy that does awesome stuff ... how many people have died trying to fly like superman or trying to do jumps with their cars or motorcycle like some daredevils . Its almost impossible to prevent peoples from doing stupid things like that but when it comes to children who is the person to blame ? i remember when i was a child i really wanted to be like adults that does cool stuff whoever they were but my mom was always there to put me back on my feet telling me that i shouldnt do stupid things like getting myself killed and she explained to me why ...

thats why i think its more about education from our parents than about some dude on tv doing crazy stuff


btw in my previous post by you i meant everyone i wasnt pointing at anyone in particular sorry if there was some misunderstanding :)

[Christina]

everyone keeps talking about the fact that steve uses a stick for handling hots and how it should be a hook or tongs but nobody has mentioned how many times that mark o'shea( who does use tongs and hooks ) has been bitten and invenomated


just a thought ???

[Leo-Land]

I like to watch him.. Lighten up on the poor guy.

[HeatherRose]

I *personally* LOVE Steve Irwin...I think the work he does and his show are quite beneifcial to not only the herp world but the animal kingdom as well...

I was watching the croc hunter this morning, the episode with all of the primates at some conservation/sanctuary....he was so amazed and taken with the animals...I truly believe that he holds all of the animals he works with with a certain respect. I think he motivates people to hold respect for all animals, and how remarkable they all are, from the biggest elephant to the tiniest spider.

And yes, Terry's hair could definately use some help. ;)

[Leo-Land]

I wonder if they are reading this right now.. Wouldn't that be wild?

[damzookeeper]

I didn't read all the posts here, to many. lol. but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. :D
I love Steve and all the work he has done. I have noticed that Terri doesn't handle the hots like Steve does. This is probably because Steve has been doing it since he was a very young boy with his father and alone. Sometimes he uses sticks, sometimes he uses his bare hands.
Most of you have watched Jeff Corwin, I love his shows as well, and I have seen him handle hots with his bare hands as well. He just watches more closely and doesn't have that hypertension that Steve has when handling them. That excitement is what draws me to Steve's shows more than Jeff's, but I like them both. However,I do remember there was a couple episodes that Jeff screwed up and admitted it. Once when a mock viper bit him, he said "Now I really hope it is a mock viper or I"m dead." and the other when he was handling a viper and let it get too lose and it could have bit him right in the face, but instead it looked for the nearest tree branch to make a get away. He was rather relieved. So, I think it isn't just Steve. But right now Steve is one of the most popular figures in the herp world so of course he is going to get bad publisity. :(

[Mike177]

ya man, steve is a load of crap!
like other people say they could write a paragraph on all the problem but befor i go on a rant about some stupid australian i just want to say this. stick with the guys like jeff corwin or mark O'shea. people who accualy know what there are doing and dont cach Gaboon Vipers with there bear hands. well that my 2 cents

[BWSmith]

I think that on a controversial thread like this that has changed specifics several times, it is wise to read all information.

[shaggybill]

Hmm...I certainly dont think Steve is a load of crap. And just cause he catches Gaboons with his bear hands doesnt necessarily mean he doesnt know what hes doing. Its not like he holds them up to his face or anything. In fact, he holds them far enough away that the snakes mouth couldnt even reach his own body. And maybe you dont watch close enough, but his eyes will hardly ever leave the snake that he is holding. And he is very careful with them too.

The fact that Steve has never been bitten speaks volumes about his ability to interact with the herps. In fact, it establishes the idea that he knows what hes doing and he isnt another moron who likes to impress his friends.

The only good point I see on this board is BWSmiths about stupid people trying to imitate Steve and getting themselves killed in the process.

Oh, and by the way, both Corwin and O'Shea free-handle deadly snakes.

[marylyn101]

STEVE IS MY HERO A$$HOLES!~!!!

[V.hb]

I like Steve. I think hes incredibly knowledgable. Who cares if he stages his finds or not.. He does alot of good for reptiles in his country. His techniques may not be as sound as others, or up too others expectations, but heck its the reptile industry; everybody has their own techniques they claim are the best.

PS
if you watch his show, he always tells viewers never to handle snakes the way he does.

[BWSmith]

but heck its the reptile industry; everybody has their own techniques they claim are the best.

But we are not talking about a Corn Snake and we are not talking about husbandry. These are deadly animals. It is like someone doing a show about guns and everytime staring down the barrel and pulling thrigger while saying "I am a professional and have done it this way for years, but don't try this at home".

Who cares if he stages his finds or not
I agree.

But I submit: For those who think that beacause he has been handling that way for years or that his methods are OK........ I want to see WHO has workied with these snakes. Who has worked with Mambas, Taipans, Spitters? Who has had a Boomer steal a hook?

And I will even get a little butal here. This is not meant to offend anyone in particular, although it probably will. Those who condone his handing, are dooming us all. He is going to be a contributing factor the the BAN of all reptiles as pets. The HSUS, API, and PETA are drooling over this issue waiting for it to become enought o build a case against. EVERY YEAR the HSUS proposes a bill to Congress to BAN ALL herps in the U.S. And it is near getting passed! All they need is a few people getting bit by ratters and saying "But Steve Irwin did it" to get it through. I don't think most realize how much it effects all of us. Noone seems to see the big picture. I help firght legislation, ignorance and ophidiophobia every day. What do you do to preserve our hobby and our passion? Believe it ornot, keeping herps is a RIGHT, not a priviledge. And it CAN and WILL be taken away! Unless we pose to the world that what the select few that makes the news is NOT how we all are. We need tos tand as one and say "NO! We are NOT liek Croc Hunter just because we keep snakes (or venomous snakes)! We DO NOT practice haphazard and dangerous handling practices! We DO NOT condone how he works with them!" WE HAVE NO ACTIVISTS on our side. But outr enemies (Humane Society, PETA, and API) have thousand of people and a mound of money. Despite how safe you think you are, you are not. If yo thinkthat "I only breed ball pythons or leopard geckos, what one man does is not my concern and it does not effect me". then you are living in a dream world. EVERYTHING that ANY herp keeper does reflects on us all (sadly). The sands are running out in the herp hourglass, and unless we start to police ourselves, the the government will police us, and that will be a complete BAN! And I for one will be an outlaw. They can pry my snakes from my cold, dead hands!

This is not a simple issue, and it is not all Steve's fault. But it must be acknowledged that he is a piece of the puzzle. I would never doubt his intentions or his contributions. But with fame comes responsibility. He has yet to realize that. We are at WAR people. We are at war to preserve our hobby and the right to keep the animals we love. Ignorance and misinformation will be the death of this hobby. If you doubt anything I said, look it up. it is all in their agendas and Congress records. And for those who don't know: HSUS = Humane Society of the United States, API = Animal Protection Institute, and PETA = People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Boy those all sound pretty noble...... and they are.... AS LONG AS IT IS A MAMMAL!

i'm done.

[shaggybill]

Dang BW, you oughta run for President or something. Wow...

[Frankie]

I don't think Steve Irwin is feeding the fire all that much. The problem would be all the irresponsable keepers and the fact most people are afraid of snakes. As far as kids go the parents should be teaching you don't mess with snakes. Shaggybill sounds like we're neighbors.

[V.hb]

BWSmith
I totally agree with you on most parts. First off, I wasn't aware that all of this was going on and Steve was used too do this. However, it's still the mass general public too blame on herps. The ones who sell rattlers to the newcoming herpers who just dont have a clue. Theres such a chain of responsibility here. I find it incredibly hard to blame a guy on television who says "NEVER do this at home" Yeah, his methods are stupid. Doesnt mean people have to follow them.

I would be incredibly surprised if this bill was passed anytime soon.

You didn't offend me if you thought you were going too. I agree with you. Hopefully this law wont be past.

[Leo-Land]

Steve Irwin Rules! Just leave the dude alone!

[marisa]

Just because I haven't had hot snakes doesn't mean I can't comment on his use of bare hands for his entire life. I am tired of being lumped into an "idiot" catagory by some herpers because I CHOOSE not to own retics, or I choose not to own GTPS, I am sick of being called a "newbie" because I'd rather have colubrids over pythons. I am totally tired of this "special, I do this and know this guy" club. Not that you are like this but I get this mentality a lot.

If everything to do with hots is going to be talked about ONLY by hot keepers then nothing is going to get done for your "cause" either. I don't see how my not having hots has anything to do with asking why he might be more comfortable with his bare hands. HE MIGHT BE MORE COMFORTABLE! I am not saying its wrong or right, but you can't tell him he isn't more comfortable that way.

I think everyone here understands your point. And my cornsnakes aren't preventing me from understanding it, or showing that I have less knowledge then someone else. If all that matters is who you know and if I am doing more than someone else then I'd rather not compete.

If there are "sides" then I am on the animals side. IF that is what is best. Not the human side. Not saying I think banning herps is best, but I am saying I am not fighting for humans rights to do anything, if I was fighting it would be because these animals might not make it in the world we are crowding and ruining and captive kept snakes might be all that's left for some species. Which is what I believe in.

BWSmith you are so well written but my views don't match yours always. Although I love all your points and I agree with all of them almost No I don't keep hots, no I don't do education presentations (oh god public speaking ekk!!!!), but I firmly believe it is not a RIGHT to keep animals in our home, but a priviledge.

As soon as things become "rights" then you have a bigger issue, that even you complain about. Each nut owning snakes because its his "right" instead of proving he deserves the priviledge to care for a living creature.

I believe having even a PUNY cornsnake in my home is a priviledge and not a right. I am priviledged to be able to have such an amazing creature in my home. I am priviledged to have a community to talk about husbandry. I am priviledged to be able to keep snakes in a captive enviroment and have them breed. Its not my "right" to force things to breed, or keep them in a home. Those are my beliefs. I feel as soon as people start throwing the "Its my right!!!!" into it, it becomes about PEOPLE....not animals.

But while I believe all this, you are so right. Things like this, wrong or right, will RUIN the priviledge to own herps. Because someone will take it away, or limit it severly. Now if that means the community on a large needs to ignore people like Croc Hunter, I don't know. Because I can't for the life of me figure out how to make the situation with this guy or people like him better. You know what I mean? All you can do is what you are doing. Showing people that hot owners aren't croc hunters, and in real life, there is a huge danger to following anything but the proper handling methods. Period.

Just MHO.
Marisa

[shawnahiltz]

"What a little beauty!"

[Dozer]

I own toads, and the tendancy is that people ask me, let them go, you didn't pay for them... my experience with these american toads was direct from start, from the egg, to what i have now, even though they didn't cost me an arm and a leg i chose to give them a good life. people shuldn't base herps on size or cost, because to come down to the bear facts, we chose to keep them for their beuty, uniqueness and to give them life. I dunno why i rambled on like this, but i read two posts above sayin' somethin' about being called a newb cause people dont own retics etc/ et/c i totally agree with ya :) like i said, i put onnes of time and a fair bit of money into enclosures and pets, and its not about how much you paid for the animal...

just my 50 cent ;)

[Dozer]

i shouulda read the above posts before i started talkin', now i feel kinda stupit!

[JD@reptiles]

well dozer.... you are a pretty stupid guy..


Lol just playing mike:P

Jordan :)

[chas*e]

All television shows are set-up to some degree...Steve's show is no different....I looked into it and found out that he sets up some reptile shots to save time and money but from what I read he is a well respected and educated herpetologist.....he is goofy though with the hots..he must have quite an entourage of doctors and a trailer of antivenin..lol

[shaggybill]

Yeah, thats what I was thinking. Probably all these guys have anti-venin with them for whatever snake they are messing with.

I was watching this one guy one time (dont remember who) and he got bitten by a cobra and probably the only reason he didnt get himself into serious trouble was because he had anti-venin in his trailer a hundred feet away. The drive to the hospital was more than two hours away if I remember correctly.

[gfisher2002]

Steve Erwin Rocks

[Cobra266]

Steve Irwin is HORRIBLE. If you guys haven't watched his movements and how he catches his animals. When he catches snakes he holds them by their tail. THEIR TAIL! If you hold a snake like that, specially heavier ones, it seperates their vertabrae and it can even eternally cripple them. They way he handles animals it obtrosive. Personally I think Jeff Corwin is the best. :)

[Leo-Land]

Hmm.. I've only seen people catching snakes by their tail.. Odd

[shaggybill]

Cobra, I cant tell if your being serious or sarcastic. Hopefully sarcastic. :)

[krrc]

first off all the "steve erwin rocks", sucks or whatever without another comment on your veiws really needs to stop. secondly the bans on reptiles BW speaks of are real and imanant if we dont act I have tryed and still do I formed the KRRC Keepers for Responceable Reptile Care I have nagged at pet shops about their care and as much as I try I have only found one pet shop out of 10 or so in my area worthy of keeping these animals. being 15 it is tough for me to go everware preaching about my choosen pets one time in a math class I'm in we were doing persents and we did a poll to pass as pets" out of 20 or so people I think 5 said no. wile this might not represnt a large number of people I think or, I wouldent be supprised to find that a state or nation wide poll would look painfully simmalar. at this point I'm out of ideas about what I can do intill I can get I car I cant get out to do educational programs and b*cthing at the pet stores only gets me out of breath and wastes time store managers would most likely spend on the mammals anyways..

P.S. sorry it was off topic to some extent. and please excuse the spelling.

[BWSmith]

Sorry, but being 15, you need someone older and more experienced as a "front man" if you want to gain credibility. preferably someone with credentials.

[Cobra266]

hey im 12 but i can name just about every herp specie there is. it doesn't matter how old you are okay? i'm here because i think i belong here, and i know what i'm talking about. so cut krrc some slack okay? :)

[Cobra266]

whoops! got a little carried away!....*nervous laugh* don't hurt me please!

[BWSmith]

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but age does matter when it comes to things like this. Online, you have anonymity. In real life you don't. People are not likely to listen to someone that young, no matter how much kowledge they have. It is just the way of the world and I was offerring a suggestion based on REALITY. Right or wrong, it is the way the world works. I still have issues soemtimes just because I LOOK young.

[marisa]

I so agree with that.

If you are trying to run an education program, a rescue of anything like that, you will need an older front man like BWSmith said.

Marisa

[Cobra266]

oh so are you saying that if i have an opinion you're going to blow it off because i'm young? sounds like it. thats low.

[BWSmith]

My you are defensive about your age. Hey, it is the way of the world. Appearance is actually important to get results unless youare already established and well known, particularly when you are dealing with strangers. We were all young once and it took along time for me to get credibility. Chill out and quit taking it personal. hate the world, not the messenger.

[Cobra266]

okie dokie pokie :D

[Leo-Land]

that reply proves BW's point.

[krrc]

BW, I agree and that is one of my biggest problems at this point is getting people to listion or take me seriously. I really dont know anyone else to help me that has time and the only person I know doesnt seem to care.

[AbstractCypher]

I think everyone has agood point here. I tend to look at the good a person does, rather than the bad. His handaling practices are definitly not good for the "younger audience", but at the same time he does tell everyone watching at home that its taken him years upon years to be able to do this stuff the way he does it, and that they should NEVER try this themselves. Not that all kids listen, but he does say it. Personaly, I haven't done any research on the Erwin's, but I do enjoy Steve's spunk, funny/stupid things he does, and their show.

[Cobra266]

mmkay.

[Samba]

Well, just thought I'd add my two cents about Steve...

While one might agree that he appears reckless and takes uneeded risks with hots and other potentially dangerous reptiles. I think we all have to agree that his heart is in the right place. The reason he handles the animals the way he does is not for his benefit (obviously he has many other alternatives to free-handling) but he believes it's the best for the creatures involved. He doesn't like the use of tranquilizers or sedatives. We may discount him, but at the same time he has the creditals and experience most of us will only dream of. Personally, I am not one to judge a person I've never met (or even one I have met for that matter). That is simply not my place here on earth. However, I do see that he is extremely passionate, knowledgable and sensitive to the animals he handles. He is truely a one-of-a-kind in this world full of head-cases. As for his shows being set up... If it is or isn't is not what matters... he's educating the public and allowing them to see the many wonderful and positive qualities about reptiles that most people abhor. His technique may leave something to be desired, but I hold the utmost respect for him. Personally, I don't think I'd have the balls to do what he does, experience or not!

[ReptiZone]

Krrc start a new thread about the way you feal and what you would like to do and see if any one here is wiling to give some advice get it all down on paper and see what is realistic and what just cant be done. E- mail me a copy and I would love to see what i can do with it i live in Canada so if you are in the country lets get our heads to geather and I will make some phone ring and see where we stand.
hey it is worth a shot and we have nothing to lose if we get some sort of progres we just have to contact some of the big guys in the herp indusrty and see what would be a good move to make we are all here to healp each other out arnt we?

[Cobra266]

wow.

[ReptiZone]

do you ever have anything intelagent to say or are you power posting

[snkmn]

good point on him running to the camera and the camera seeing the animal first. i totally agree jeff is way better. but i like mark o'shea better than jeff corwin.

[reptiledude21]

i think steve erwin is a fake.... he always finds like wahtever animal he wants to find.....they pry just take the cage out in the open with a tamed animal and let it go and then whata ya know, HE FINDS WHAT HE WAS LOOKING FOR.

[Tim and Julie B]

You know they shoot for days to get all those shots of him finding stuff. He has a large crew that searches the area and when something is spotted he's radio'd to go to that location for a possible shoot. Just something to think about guys

[reptiledude21]

well then i guess hes not a true herp hunter or a true "crocodile hunter" if he has to have people find him the animals.....

[tHeGiNo]

Reptile dude, sorry to break it to you but he is only one person searching in rather large areas. He has people helping him to reduce the time it takes to find what he is looking for. I don't think that means he is not a 'true herper.' I said it once and I will say it again. Actually someone has already mentioned this. If there are venomous snakes in ones area, it is the parents' DUTY to make sure their kids understand the danger involved with the animals. It is also the parents responsibility to let their kids know that it is wrong to try and hold snakes the way Steve does. If they don't then I am sorry it is not Steves fault. Because I see people committing murders on Law and Order, that doesn't make it ok for me to murder someone. I think Steve is being used as a scape goat for the lack of responsibility in the parents. As for critisizm against him, once you have done half the things he has done, put half the money he has put into the conservation of animals, and spent half the time he has with animals, THEN can I accept him being critisized. Until then cut the guy some slack. He has done wonders for this world.

[NewLineReptile]

Is this thread ever going to end? even if Irwin is a fake he still know's what he is doing and talking about. Look at it this way if he just ran around on the show and found nothing how many of us would be watching it. As for Jeff and O'shea dont think they are not doing the same as Irwin. I also like Jeff out of them all and really think O'Shea is nothing but a " JOKE"

Brandon

[Oliverian]

Well first, I just have to say WOW. This is a looong post. I agree with most of you.. it doesn't matter if he gets people to help him find the reptiles, in my opinion it makes the show better because there's a larger variety for us to see. :p reptiledude, if you think you can do better than Steve, by all means go ahead, but don't criticize someone for no good reason, just because you don't like him (or are jealous). One final thing, do you guys notice how Terri really tries to be like Steve, and Steve is always making her look really dumb, like she doesn't know what she's doing? Lol, I see that a lot in the newer episodes. Steve must be doing something right, though, this post hasn't been on here 24 hours and already it has more replies than most other ones. :)

[Colonel SB]

I just have to say that is here were a fake he'd be dead by now. He would either have been nabbed by a croc or bitten by a taipan.

[MAN OF STEEL]

i really dont give a $hit if it is fake or not! i really enjoy his shows along with jeff corwin and mark o'shea! good job guys!