DEBATE: Housing of Ball Pythons

[tHeGiNo]

Well there have been many informative debates going on lately with people contributing very valid points. I therefore have a battle to start here, something that has been bothering me since i started herping.

Please note I am using ball pythons as a specific as it is most said with them. Why is it said that a ball python should have a really small enclosure when they are small? What proof is there of this? What justification is there? What is the reasoning behind this statement? I really do not understand it, I mean over in Africa I am quite sure that they do not live in little tuppawares, nor any specifc area of a similar size. Im hoping someone will clear this up for me, as from my perspective it is an excuse to house them in cheap enclosures.

[Andy_G]

They live in large grasslands with tall grass, therefore at their viewpoint it is not a large open area. They also usually crawl into rodent burrows, clear them, and wait until they are finished digesting before leaving the burrow, therefore feeding in a small dark area.

The reasons people say that smaller is better is because of those reasons, yes it is money saving, but contrary to your belief, the places they usually are found in the wild are small tight places. I house my baby in a 20 gallon and I feel if there is enough things in the cage it will not freak out, and since mine has eaten in it's tank, my theory in this case is correct.

I love debates like these. :)

[tHeGiNo]

Alright I forgot to put that in sorry. I meant to say if I were to give a ball a 130 gallon with plenty hides, there is no reason why I couldnt right? It would be the same as the wild where they have a large area with a choice where to live.

At the same time, I have another question to add, similar to this. What are signs of stress, and how can you tell if your snake is stressed.

[rattekonigin]

I think the most obvious sign of stress would be to have the snake go off its food, or regurgitate its food...(these would only be valid signs of stress if the temps and other environmental factors were correct, though...and you'd also have to rule out reproductive reasons for going off feed)

[DavidBeard]

I suppose a large cage with plenty of hides would work....if you have LOTS of spare time and energy. Why? Because a larger cage requires more maintenance and they are harder to regulate proper temps and humidity, and to monitor the animals health closely. Ball pythons are a naturally shy, reclusive snake and too much space or open areas can stress them out which will lead to many possible problems. I house my sub-adult in a 38 quart rubbermaid and I reguarly get him out to exercise. He very rarely comes out of his hide unless he is hungry or very late at night. Large cages are for the most part impractical for ball pythons as they are not very active snakes nor are they display animals.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Why is it said that a ball python should have a really small enclosure when they are small?

No one said that you CAN'T keep a Ball in a large cage. I did it for 10 years and bred them. So why do most people give that advice? Well, how well-versed do you think a newcomer is to snake microhabitats? Probably not very well. So do you think they will have the knowledge and wherewithall to create a suitable habitat for a very shy and withdrawn snake that eats sporadically? No, they won't. Couple that with the fact that they usually buy a garbage WC that even the most experienced keeper would pull his/her hair out trying to feed.

Smaller cage means less mistakes. Temps are easier. Humidity is easier. The whole cage is the hidebox so the snake doesn't have to search for a hide.

Plus its tried and true. If it isn't broke, then why strive for reasons to fix it?

[Andy_G]

Why a 130 instead of a 20?? That makes no sense to me! Firstly, it would be heavy as hell if you needed to move it and secondly it would be really expensive to keep heated properly! Why not save the pain?

[tHeGiNo]

Yes but do we always have to do things easier for us, without knowing for sure how it affects the snake? I mean if a ball python will do better in a large cage with lots of hides, is it the well being of the snake we should be worried about or the ease on us? Maybe it will take a while to sink in but I cannot establish, morally or intellectually, how a smaller enclosure is better for the snake. I guess im not really arguing just searching for answers and reasoning. So far everyone has said how its easier on us, but not why it is better for the snake. If multiple hides are provided in a larger aquarium, is that better then a small enclosure with one hide? What proof is there of this. Me, I am trying to take it through natures prospective. They are not limited to a small space, rather they have a very large space with many hides provided. Do we always have to provide the minumums?

[Jeff_Favelle]

If you're going with what they have in nature, why limit yourself to spatial measures? Why not give them mites and ticks? Why not give them unusable temperatures 70% of their lives? Introduce a couple predators and disease and you've got the perfect wild Ball Python.

Now back to captives.....

For a small reclusive, somewhat fossorial snake, smaller cages work. They have proven to work better over the DECADES. Why? Does it matter? Maybe. I think there are numerous reasons; some we know, some we think we know, and some we haven't though of yet.

[tHeGiNo]

Don't get me wrong, I am throwing these statements out for no reason. First of all, no need to be a smart *** ahaha. I could flip that around and say why not give them a fridge and stove to cook their food on because we are taking care of them, couldn't I? Or thats like saying lets throw in sars in your house, along with a tiger. Because there is a possibility of having a predator and disease doesn't mean it is there right? Anyhow, I just said that in a relative figure. Back to what your saying, your not answering my question and I dont blame you, because I was trying to figure this out myself. You said it has been proved it is better that way, but don't know how. Basically, it is possibly some Joe Blow decided to say it is better for them, with no proof? And why you ask? Does it matter? Yes actually. I mean if I told you you shouldn't eat porkchops, your going to want to know why aren't you?

They have proven to work better over the DECADES. Why? Does it matter? Maybe. I think there are numerous reasons; some we know, some we think we know, and some we haven't though of yet.

In no way should you think I am trying to be offensive or be a prick or anything, I'm just trying to find some answers. This is just the same as I dont take what you say offensively. Basically you are contradicting yourself. You said in a previous debate that we cannot tell if your animal is stressed, saying such this as "what did your snake tell you....". That is exactly what I am saying here. The only reason anyone says behind using smaller enclosures is stress wise, yet how can we tell? Also you said in the above quote that there are some we know, what are those?

[mykee]

I would have to agree with Jeff, I had my bp's in a 'natural' environment and months ago, changed them all to 14 qt. rubbermaids, and my personal experiences have shown that they eat, poop, and generally APPEAR much more acclimated in a smaller, "man-made" environment. Also makes EVERYTHING easier from my standpoint.

[tHeGiNo]

By natural environment, what do you mean by that?

[Jeff_Favelle]

First of all, no need to be a smart *** ahaha. I could flip that around and say why not give them a fridge and stove to cook their food on because we are taking care of them, couldn't I?

Not being a smart *** at all. There are a ton of things in a Ball Python’s environment that are useless to them. For some strange reason, people always use the argument that because the spatial scale of the world is large, captive snakes should be kept in large cages. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Snakes should be kept in large cages if they use the space. Some snakes do. A lot don’t. Ball Pythons don’t. So when I said that you should include mites, ticks, predators etc etc I was making the point that there usable things in a BP’s environment, and there are non-usable things. Our job is to eliminate the non-usable things and find the usable things. If they used a fridge or stove, then I would give them to my Ball Pythons. But fortunately they don’t.

You said it has been proved it is better that way, but don't know how. Basically, it is possibly some Joe Blow decided to say it is better for them, with no proof? And why you ask? Does it matter? Yes actually. I mean if I told you you shouldn't eat porkchops, your going to want to know why aren't you?

It is certainly possible that some shmo could have made this stuff up, but that wouldn’t explain why all the top breeders use small cages and why its worked for the last 20 years. I mean, there is millions of dollars involved in BP breeding, do you think these guys would use unproven methods? :D When I say that I don’t know how it works better, I mean that the mechanisms aren’t fully understood. If that’s your goal, well then by all means set up experiments, do field work, and find the answers. But the goal of most is to find what works to breed these animals and keep them healthy. Once that is found, then methods are constantly refined for economic and efficiency reasons.

You said in a previous debate that we cannot tell if your animal is stressed

Holy moly, I would never say that. Reading snakes is he most fundamental part of Advanced Husbandry 101. I can tell if an animal is stressed. Piece of cake. Its trying to figure out if they are not stressed that’s the tough part. And when you think about it, are snakes EVER not stressed? I mean, everything’s an enemy that can cause damage, even food items for crying out loud! Its reducing the stress that is the key. And basic snake knowledge makes that possible.

The only reason anyone says behind using smaller enclosures is stress wise, yet how can we tell?

Not sure who would say that. There’s a TON of reasons to use smaller cages with stress being one small factor.

Thoughts?

[Jeff_Favelle]

By natural environment, what do you mean by that?

He means naturalistic setup which is a common term in the industry for setups that have more than the basics for the animal. In other words, tons of non-usable things (not always) for the animal purely for our enjoyment. Not a bad thing, but not really a good thing (for the animal). Kinda neutral.

[fateamber]

When i got my Bp the sales person told me to keep him in the tiny plastic cage i was given to keep him in because he is 'shy'. But me being me thought he needed more room so i moved him up into a 40 cm long bigger plastic viv. Now he comes out of his hide at night and seems less stressed and much more friendly but i still havn't told the person who sold him to me that i moved him and went against his advice cos i'm pretty sure he would KILL me! So i think given the chance Bp's like more space.

[DavidBeard]

I'm gonna have to go with Jeff here. I don't really know ya, Jeff, but you and I seem to think alike, which I like. Like you said, some snakes need more space, others don't, for many reasons. Ball pythons are not a large space-needing species. If you want a snake that needs lots of space, then get a burm or another large snake. Why must we anthropomorphize snakes so often? They don't need or want room to "play" nor do they need "friends." It is a snake, not a person.

[tHeGiNo]

I do not think I was anthropomorphizing ball pythons at all. I never said they needed play time nor space, but maybe extra space would = more activity = more excercise. Also,

If you want a snake that needs lots of space, then get a burm or another large snake.

That makes no sense. When people get big snakes, they usually supply half their length or a little more. Here, we are talking about giving them more space then half their size for example, or more then what is generally given. If we were speaking of a large snake, we would also be talking about providing a 15 foot tank for a 10 foot snake. I never said I wanted a snake that needs lots of space, the only reason burms need bigger houses then balls are obviously because they are bigger.

However, jeff, you have made some really good points. The bets would have to be



That couldn’t be further from the truth. Snakes should be kept in large cages if they use the space. Some snakes do. A lot don’t.

That put things into perspective to me.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Its a very very good post you started TG. Intelligent questions demand intelligent responses. I just wish I had more info for you to digest. I don't want to just post my opinions though. I'm trying to find hard evidence for you, as I think you've been given enough "opinions" on your quest for answers.

We will discuss Ball Pythons further, I'm sure of it.

Check out the Sutherlands Ball Python video.

[tHeGiNo]

Where can I see that?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Not in theaters. You'll have to buy it. Go here:

http://www.ballpython.com/bpbreeding.shtml

[marisa]

But wouldn't a person have to ask himself/herself *WHY* their ball python in a 60 gallon tank is moving more? The snake obviously has further to go and *has* to move more to reach the desired temp, as in a 60 gallon the warm side would be far over to the right (well whatever side you choose) but the cooler temps will be far over the the left. The BP has to be more active.

I would generally feel this is right for my cornsnakes because they are an active snake, never stop moving, like to explore. But from everything I have personally read or seen on video, or nature programs or heard from other people, is that ball pythons aren't a "travelling" snake and don't cover all this ground at night like say a corn would. They are slow moving, calm, underground snakes. From what I know they don't *want* more activity naturally, they like less.

So thats why I personally feel the smaller cage the better, *especially* when advising someone new to Ball Pythons and about to get their first.

I would have been seriously disapointed had a gotten my BP and a person on here told me "Sure I keep mine in an 80 gallon!" I would have not only been dissapointed but dumb for listening to this advice without knowing the animals natural behaviours. Which I learned, hence the reason I go with a smaller cage for my BP :)

Good day!

Marisa
P,S, I am NO expert, I have one BP and I have had it less than a year. These are my personal deductions from my own research before obtaining this animal. (And during of course) :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

Exactly Marisa. Ball Pythons are NOT travelling snakes. If you see them cruising, then something is usually not right (doesn't have to be majorly wrong, but enough to trigger clues and mechanisms within the snake to cause it to motor).

We shouldn't confuse a BP trying to escape for a BP that wants more room and is trying to exercise, LOL! It means they aren't getting the stuff they want/need to be a Ball Python in the current surroundings.

[tHeGiNo]

Very very true! However I hope your not referring to me because I never said anything like that, heh.

[Jeff_Favelle]

No no my man. Just a general statement.

[marisa]

Yup. Just a general throw into the discussion. I like having "debates" and often some off strongly. But I do believe in everything my statement said.

For the same reason I stated above, it does bother me when I see corns being kept in Ball Python "o.k." size cages...i.e. small tubs/20 gallon tanks. I don't feel the nature of the corn is served by this at all. They *are* a travelling, climbing, digging, roaming snake. Yet people give them the same amount of room that they would give to a slow, non-travelling snake species.

And many people on the other forums I have visited have fat deposit problems, egg binding problems and fat unhealthy looking cornsnakes. Its because they force them to act like a Ball Python. :)

Its bothered me so much I am building a new rack right now because I never ever feel right looking at my rubbermaids for the corns. And they are even larger than most use! :)

Marisa

[Jeff_Favelle]

Exactly Marisa.

But isn't that just common sense (of which there seems to be a lack of in the world)? I mean, it should be obvious that different species need different things! If that wasn't the case, then I'd be breeding Timors and Boelens and Komodo Dragons. Obviously they need different requirements.

Too bad more people don't think like you do.

[marisa]

I didn't even think of it that way myself until I was thinking about a huge custom made plexi and wood enclosure I have (like 6 feet long, 4 wide). I was wondering if someone was going to put a snake in there, what would be best small species? (not that a cage size like that would work, I was just pondering)

The more I thought about it, I realized my BP would ignore over half the room, and would be forced be to come into the open to cross the long heat gradient to reach choice temps. But the more I thought about it that way, I realized that my cornsnakes would use every single inch of that space, each night.

Hence the reason I am planning on moving the colubrids to larger more open enclosures this summer.

Marisa

[tHeGiNo]

Very good point. I also notice we too often give the minimum requirements husbandry wise.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yep Gino. And you know what?

The minimum requirements often yield the minimum results. Whereas a tiny bit more effort yields great rewards. Often, not all the time mind you...

[tHeGiNo]

Yes, of course as with anything, there are some exceptions.

[ReptiZone]

The way I see it if you put a ball python in a cage where you you can see him at all angles it will be prone to get more stresed and not want to move verry much but if you give a huge rubermaid (like the ones you put in your shed for your tools) and provide a bunch of hides it will be more active cause it can not see you there for it will not be afraid of coming out.

[marisa]

Yes I agree with you Chondro Python, except I don't feel they really ever *want* to be out in the sense we talk about it. They come out searching for food and water if they have too. And their natural way of fasting sometimes only helps them be more lazy. *LOL* So I don't think even in the best circumstance for *us* do BPs feel the need to travel long distances, climbing trees and such. I don't think they are as much scared as they are reclusive and secretive. Both of which are different than being in fear. I beleive they choose a life of solitary and non-movement because thats the way nature made them :)

Just MHO.

Marisa

[Linds]

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
Alright I forgot to put that in sorry. I meant to say if I were to give a ball a 130 gallon with plenty hides, there is no reason why I couldnt right? It would be the same as the wild where they have a large area with a choice where to live.

At the same time, I have another question to add, similar to this. What are signs of stress, and how can you tell if your snake is stressed.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you in that a baby ball could even be kept in a bedroom sized enclosure, provided it is heavily planted, packed tightly with very tight-fitting hiding spots. The reason people typically recommend a small enclosure is that in all likelyhood, most people are not willing to setup a large enclosure that would be suitably planted... some mulch, a few hides and a branch is fairly open to a ball python... resulting in the snake being stressed out which ultimately sets off a string of problems. large enclosures that are suitable for baby balls require are high maintenance and take up a great deal of time and effort. Not only is it a lot of work, but you are liekly to have a difficult time finding your snake, and will rarely see it. It's much more attainable to setup a smaller enclosure, to scale with the snake, and throw in whatever decorations you find attractive :)

[fateamber]

My Bp is strange he spends more time now with his head (if not half his body) out of a hide than inside it, he is eating fine and the temps are fine. He sems to like being out of his viv when i take him out let him exersize for a bit then put him back he trys to get back out of his viv before i can put the lid on!

[marisa]

That is something I have noticed in my Ball Python, "Eight" too...he hides 100% of the time but if its dark outside, his head is out of the hide watching the world go by. hehehe That's why I don't really think they are a "scared" species of snake more so the others, but shy and open to activity on their own terms.

They are definitly wonderful snakes.

Marisa