Getting concerned with my corn [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

jwsporty

04-21-03, 05:42 AM

Hey folks,

Well I am starting to get stressed. since I brought my Corn home, Approx 1 + years old, approx. 30 in". He has fed for me ONCE. This Sunday marked 6 weeks, no feed. Current conditions and attempts

Tank temps: low = 70 deg. high = 86-88 deg humidity 35-51%
Tank size: 33 gal, natural setup, substrate: mix forest bark and aspen
Water: fresh daily without fail

Prey: F/T adults, F/T hoppers, Live hoppers

Attempts:
Overnight in tank F/T hoppers
Large tub feed all prey listed above, both covered and uncovered
Small tub feed all prey listed above, both covered and uncovered
Prey placed in the bottom and dangled, all prey listed
Times of day: early morning, mid morning, early evening, late evening

He has shed for me once and it was a good shed.

He is drinking (observed on many occasions) and although he has lost some body weight, he is active in his tank and using the full thermal gradient. He is alert and aware of his surroundings

No mites or ticks

As this is spring, how long , I realize this is purely a guess, does the mating season last for corns. Could this be the problem?

I read that some corns will simply not eat for their owners, switch owners and then everything is fine..

Any insight would be helpful. All my other babies are doing ok except one of my albino cal kings who is doing the same thing for me, but he has a proven track record of eating so I am not worried, YET, about him.

How much longer can I wait before I have to get drastic with the treatment?

Thanks again.

Jim

J_Riley

04-21-03, 08:13 AM

If he's losing weight, it's wise to worry...I would probably take him to a vet, if he's losing noticeable weight, for a check up.

have you tried assist feeding him? I.e. take a smaller that normal prey item in one hand, snake in the other (it's much easier with a second set of hands), pry the snakes mouth open and get the prey item in there and hold it there. After a few minutes, instinct should take over and he should start swallowing hopefully.

I got my corn from a girl in California (i'm on the east coast) and he's eaten for me, although he's regularly sporadic at this time of year.

Have all your offered feeders been the same color? Sometimes, for whatever reason, they'll get fixated on a particular prey item color or refuse a certain color.

Andy_G

04-21-03, 11:22 AM

Would it be possible that your snake has mouth rot? Check it's mouth for irregular looking spots. Allof the inner mouth should be the same colour, usually light pink or an off red. Mouth rot can easily be contracted in captivity, and snakes will not feed very well with it.

uog11

04-21-03, 04:43 PM

all of the above posts sound good. another suggestion could be cooling for a month or 2 if at all possible. it has worked for me in the past

Emily-Fisher

04-21-03, 04:53 PM

I agree with everyone above...maybe he DOES have mouthrot or parasites...he sounds like he is the same size as my corn. I tried feeding my corn hoppers and he refused to eat them so now he eats large pinkies are fuzzies...usually about 3 or 4 fuzzies or 5 or 6 pinkies. He wont eat anything larger. Try feeding him smaller pey...I read in some books that corns arent big on big prey. Hope this helps! You should still see a vet about this though.

jwsporty

04-21-03, 09:51 PM

Thanks Folks,
All your ideas sound good. I was able to open his mouth long enough and I can see no signs of dicolouration or discharge. I will try to feed him on smaller prey. If no luck in the next couple of days, a trip to the vet will be in order. I will keep you posted.

Jim

Tim and Julie B

04-21-03, 10:03 PM

Jim; just try nicking the brain of the feeder. We bought a corn that just refused to eat. I tried everything too. Then I remembered hearing about nicking the brain. I nicked the pinkie, held it out on tongs to the corn he came up took one sniff and blam! Took it no problem. Haven't had any problems since. Try this before you force feed. Only do that if it is a last resort. It stresses the snake out. Try it. It's gross but it works!

jwsporty

04-22-03, 02:13 AM

Thanks Tim, I will try that in a couple of hours. I'm with you on the force feeding issue..last resort only

Emily-Fisher

04-22-03, 05:29 AM

How do you nick a pinkie?

Pixie

04-22-03, 07:55 AM

Emily: I don't know which books you got your info that corns prefer smaller prey items but in my personal experience and from what I've heard and read from other corn snake keepers, this is NOT true. It is important to pass along accurate information.

Corn snakes can easily eat a prey item that is the same size of it's fattest part on it's body and one and a half times that. To feed more smaller prey items is by far less nutritious than one appropriate sized one. I have lived the experience myself because my albino corn has always been a fussy eater. She is a little bit older than my okeetee and he's quite bigger than her, he not having any problems eating.

If you say your corn is approx. 30 inches, he should definitely not be getting pinkies anymore, those have very little nutrition for a snake that size. Feed him fuzzies and try to increase the prey size and decrease the number of prey items with each upcoming feed.

jwsporty: Having a corn not eat is pretty stressful, as mentionned above, I had a very difficult time with my albino female for quite some time last year. She's only taken live, I have tried everything to switch her over and still am but she wont have anything to do with a dead prey... She refused many meals all together in her earlier months driving me mad!!! My bp's were eating like pigs but my corn wasn't!!! I checked everything, brought her to the vet, nothing... For a time I was sure I was going to lose her, she was getting quite thin but then she just snapped out of it and started eating regularly! No one knows what went on with her but I'm so happy she got better, still can't get her to eat prekilled prey but I'm still trying. Now she's grown quite a bit since then and is quite healthy and still eating well.

I really am not suggesting you switch to live prey as I don't advocate the practice for the safety of the snake. I have 2 out of 8 snakes that only take live and I absolutely hate it, I get so stressed when feeding these guys I watch like a hawk! But if your snake hasn't eaten in a long time, is getting very thin and everything else has been ruled out, it might be worth a try for a live fuzzy.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Pixie

Pixie

J_Riley

04-22-03, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Pixie
To feed more smaller prey items is by far less nutritious than one appropriate sized one.

Really? How so? Do two 5gram mice somehow contain far less nutrition than one 10gram mouse?

Cause all the nutrition research studies I've read say younger prey animals actually have more KCal/gram than older ones. Their % of protein and fat are within 1-2% of each other.

For the above example, the 5 gram mice would, according to the study, have 59.2% protein and 23.8% fat and 5.84kcal/gram. The adult 10 gram mouse would have 56.9% protein and 23.5% fat and 5.77kcal/gram.

Doing the math

the 2 5grammers will yield a total of
5.92 grams protein
2.38 grams of fat
58.4kcal of energy.

The one 10gram mouse would yield
5.69 grams of protein
2.35 grams of fat
57.7kcal/gram

It seems to me two smaller prey items yield slightly MORE nutrition, not FAR LESS.

Now, if the digestion geniuses want to explain it as the second prey item is digested FAR LESS efficiently or some other explaination, I'm all ears...

marisa

04-22-03, 08:39 AM

Well when it comes to more smaller size prey I believe it depends on what we are talking about.

Three pinkies vs. 1 lg. fuzzy is not the same. Pinkies don't have the same amount of bone matter that fuzzies do, until they get older like fuzzy....or fat pinkies. So in that case, no feeding more is not better because a larger item has more bone mass and more calcium.

But personally I see no differance between the older sizes of mice. But pinkies are for sure minimum on the nutrition scale. As soon as all of my snakes have gotten off pinkies they grow like mad.

Just a question, was the corn eating mice before you got him? Was the other person maybe feeding rats or something else?

Anole scented mice normally drive them nuts. You could try that. But you'd have to wean him off anole scented mice, but thats not too hard.

Marisa

Pixie

04-22-03, 09:03 AM

I am sorry for the confusion, it was my error not to point out that I was comparing developping mice to more adult full grown ones. I agree with you that the nutrition value in 2 small mice is most likely very similar to 1 larger mouse, but I don't think this holds true for lets say 6-10 pinkies for one hopper. Weight for weight, pinkies and fuzzies don't have the same amounts of nutrition that more developped prey do, especially in regards to calcium. Now if you can find proof that I am wrong with that I will very happily take back my words and accept your wise wisdom :)

Like I said in my post, I based this on my personal experience and from what other keepers have experienced and told me. My difficult corn when she started eating I would give her many pinkies or small fuzzies instead of one larger prey item and she didn't grow very much. In fact, by my feeding and shedding schedule, during the months that she was eating small prey items, her growth was nil to 1/2" per shed. When she started eating larger prey items, her growth was 2 to 4" per shed. Between shed phases lasting the same amount of time 4-5 weeks.

Same with my BP's that only take mice. Many have reported much faster growth in BP's that ate rats instead of many mice. There can be a difference between the nutritional values of rats vs. mice, I'll have to look that up.

Pixie

reverendsterlin

04-22-03, 11:33 AM

I noticed you call your animal "he", neither of my male corns have eaten in the last two month, an one is only 9 months old. They are currently only interested finding a female (all girls bred 1.5 months ago. Unless there is weight loss don't worry too much, sometimes even boy snakes get to thinking with the wrong head and forget to pay attention to other things. An I agree pinks are much to small, my corns are usually on small adults by 23 inches. Last years neo's (July 2002) are all eating adult mice now.

J_Riley

04-22-03, 01:14 PM

Ok. Well, when I think of nutrition, I think of protein, carbs, fat and energy.

But just for kicks:
neonatal mice (< 3 grams)
50.8 % protein
34.4 % fat
6.23kcal/gram

so, by the numbers 10 grams of prey material we'll say = 5 pinkies

5.08 grams of protein
3.44 grams of fat
62.3kcal of energy

and since we've brought calcium into the equation...

neonate mouse
3.54% Ca
1.63% P
2.17 : 1 ratio of Ca : P

Juvenile mouse
2.96% Ca
1.84% P
1.61 : 1 ratio

Adult Mouse
2.64% Ca
1.91% P
1.38 : 1 ratio

But the trick with Calcium is USEABLE calcium. Like hard bones. Pinkies tend to have a lot of their Ca in the blood rather than in their bones and I'm told by the lady that conducted this nutrition study that it isn't absorbed like calcium in bones is.

Rats tend to have slightly higher levels of protein (right around 60% for all age groups) and also higher levels of fats (low 30's %)and marginally less energy.

I think the large missing piece of this puzzle is exact specifics of snake digestion when multiple prey items are brought into the mix. Does digestion efficiency decrease as number of prey items increase? Per each item? Or decresing efficiency once you go over a certain # of items (say 2)?

I would love to see the results of an entire clutch of babies raised as an experiment to test this theory. One group fed a single prey item of appropriate size and the other group fed multiple prey items of smaller size. Corn snakes would be ideal candiates for this study. I intend to do it at some point in the future....

XxRachxX

04-22-03, 01:33 PM

have you tried feeding different prey animals? i know you can get stuff like hamsters, gerbils and baby rabbits etc. sometimes at work we a fair few fussy corns, and i usually try them on chicks? or just scenting the mouse on a chick or a rat.ive also heard of people senting them with lizards or frogs and stuff? sometimes i have to use various body parts:) mmm nice.. one tiny corn usually only eats chick wings, some others have the legs....and i have the task of ripping apart little yellow chickies!:(
good luck anyways:)

Tim and Julie B

04-22-03, 05:31 PM

Jim, I am curious to know if it worked. Does everyone have a problem with there albinos? they are the pickiest eaters. To much inbreeding I think. J Riley are you a nutrisonist or something? that is all very interesting.

jwsporty

04-22-03, 07:43 PM

Excellent reading people, and I got some GOOD NEWS..:). I took Froto to the Vet (Dr. Auger, Alta Vista Animal Hospital) after work, got his shots (Panacurin and Flagel) and a clean bill of health. I have also increased the UV levels on his cage and the flagel is supposed to stimulate feeding. With any luck he will eat this weekend, if not then at least I can get some sleep and not worry about it. :) I will just keep offering and wait it out.

What was not mentioned in the original conditions was that both
mice and rats were tried.

Tim: He was mildly curious at 2:00 in the morning..but he still refused, I have used this method before though on my Variable King with success.

Thanks folks. Appreciate it.

Jim

vanderkm

04-22-03, 07:58 PM

Jim,

I definately have to go with the Rev on this one - several of my male corns and even one female have been much more interested in breeding (even though they are 2001 or 2002 babies and were not cooled this year) and they are not the least interested in food. They just cruise their cages and unless your guy is loosing a lot of weight, this could be the cause. If so, he will start to eat once the hormones settle down. Hope all goes well with him,

mary v.

Tim and Julie B

04-22-03, 09:16 PM

Great I hope everything works out! Good luck!

fr0glet

04-23-03, 01:29 AM

This year I've had good luck getting my picky-eater corns to feed on brained rodents. Whether it be pinky, fuzzy, or adult, I only feed frozen/thawed. I cut their head open with a sharp knife and smeared the goo that came out over their entire head. It was REALLY FOOKING GROSS but I wore rubber gloves and did my best to not think about what I was doing. It worked like a charm!

J_Riley

04-23-03, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Tim and Julie B
J Riley are you a nutrisonist or something? that is all very interesting.

Nope, Computer Systems Analyst by trade, Biologist by education.

The whole nutrition aspect interests me. A long time ago I read a thread about whether mice or rats were better snake food and no one had any hard facts, just their opinions and observations, so I went on a quest to try and find some hard information.

But this is the problem. All the numbers say it shouldn't matter, that two 5 gram mice are equal (roughly) in nutrition to one 10 gram mouse. That two adult mice are roughly equal to a rat pup etc. etc. But the experiences of many people don't support the same conclusion that the numbers do, so the only thing I can think of is there's got to be a decrease in digestion efficiency when you get too many prey items in the gut (assuming all other variables remain constant). Finding the answers to questions using science has always fascinated me...

Pixie

04-23-03, 08:37 AM

Maybe having many items per meal results in some nutritional loss due to more undigestable matter being absorbed: hair, teeth, nails, etc...?

This still doesn't answer it because from the examples you gave of the 5g mouse and 10g mouse, technically they are the same in value regardless of the extra materials to digest.

This indeed would be a very interesting area to experiment with and test. I myself am also quite interested in doing a long term feeding experiment to see what the long term results would be in 2 snakes one that ate "appropriate" sized prey and the other eating multiple smaller prey items of the exact same weight.

What do you think would be the right conditions to start such an experiment? Obviously I would start with 2 snakes of the same species and size. Would it be preferable to test snakes of the same sex? Clutch mates?

I think the ideal would be do conduct such a test on a group of snakes but I think that unrealistic for me... Maybe if others are interested in participating in this experiment too we could expand the scope of the experiment past 2 snakes and get some more data.

What do you think?

Pixie

reverendsterlin

04-23-03, 10:30 AM

Riley,
I tried to get a thread started comparing last years neo growth rates earlier this year, but noone want to participate. I tend to move my snakes to larger feeders asap, most of my July born neos were on fuzzies by the 6th or 7th feeding and on hoppers by Christmas, all but one have been eating adults since the end of January. Currently all but the one are about 70-80 grams and about 27-28 inches and the one on hoppers is only 57 grams though stilll at 25.5 inches. While on pinks they were on a 4 day feeding schedule, but the move to fuzzies got them on a 7 day schedule (much easier when everyone but the giants eat at the same time). I seem to get good results with most animals at about 100 grams by their 1st birthday, and by 24 months they are at the 300 gram level. Not a single animal has ever shown any sign of fat deposits. Works for me.

Tim_Cranwill

04-23-03, 10:39 AM

Rev, I took to your advice way back when and my corns are reaping the benefits. :) The two females from last year are getting close to the adult mouse range now. The two males get slightly smaller meals but they are showing great growth as well.

Thanks for the tips.

reverendsterlin

04-23-03, 10:58 AM

Congratz Cranwill and thanks for the support.

J_Riley

04-23-03, 12:55 PM

Pixie:
You'd need to eliminate genetics as much as possible, so I'd have to say clutchmates definitely.

Further, 1 specimen for each test is insufficient, it's what we'd call an insignificant sample size. I would think minimum 4 individuals for each group, so 8 total. You'd basically need an entire clutch. At least as much of a clutch as you could get with equal split between the genders. Then they'd all have to be maintained in identical environments. Basically for a controlled scientific experiment, you have to take all the variables you possibly can out of the equation.

Rev:
Was the one on hopper eating one prey item or two?

My corn snake was "used" when I got him and almost 24 months old and weight 233 grams I think at 31" or 33". That was last april; the last time I weighed and measured him, he was 48" and almost 500 grams. And he rotates between 2-3 hoppers every 7-10 days and 1-2 adult mice (depending on the size of the adult mice) every 7-10 days.

jwsporty

04-23-03, 08:50 PM

Well judging from the stats on growth, I guess I have nothing to worry about, mine weighed in at 280 gram and the best guess is my guy is 18-24 months old.

reverendsterlin

04-24-03, 09:40 AM

Riley,
I wish I could get the guy to take 2 hoppers but he loses interest, since he is still well within normal parameters I don't worry about it but getting hoppers for only 1 animal sux. Fortunately my partner just got back from Dallas with 3000. A shameless plug, if your in West Texas, New Mexico, Eastern Arizona, or Colorado and want feeders without extra for shipping contact us at Bearclaw Interprises.

eyespy

04-24-03, 10:15 AM

The vets I've worked with have a theory about many small prey items vs. one larger one. Please note it's just a theory as they've never actually done a study. It's based on their observations of post-operative animals too, so they obviously aren't digesting foods as well as they should.

When several prey items are consumed at once, peristalsis is stimulated, in other words the downstream muscular movement of the digestive system gets put in high gear. Food may not stay in the stomach for as long because food is still coming down the esophagus and peristalsis is still functioning on high. So the food moves to the small intestines quicker than it normally would, where it is no longer exposed to stomach acids and will not break down as efficiently. A fair percentage of nutrients get pooped away instead of absorbed.

In their experience, if you feed a pinkie every day or two rather than 5 at one fell swoop the absorption rate is about the same as feeding one large prey item of comparable mass. However, the risk of regurgitation is much higher when the snake isn't allowed some peace and quiet to digest what you just gave it a day or two ago. So larger and less often is probably going to work out best.

On the other hand, a really large prey item has much less surface area than several smaller items so the acids cannot come into contact with bones, muscles and organs nearly as quickly and efficiently. A lot of the nutrient content is just pooped away.

Staying within the girth to girth plus one quarter measurement does seem to be the happiest medium for effective food processing. When you bump up to a larger prey size, make sure the poop isn't too bulky and smelly. If it is, your snake has just wasted a lot of nutrients. Give it a couple of chances before you decide to go back to the old menu plan though because any diet change can cause a temporary change in the stools.