Wow, movement!

[Zoe]

I candled a 41-day-old egg for fun today. The inside was moving!! Boy was that ever neat to see.

Hurry up, days, let's go!

Zoe

[snakelover111]

congrats zoe! u must be realy happy

[Emily-Fisher]

Cool!!!! I've never had any of ym animals lay eggs but I'm sure that its very exciting!

[reptilesalonica]

Congrats Zoe. Why i have never had an egg from my Leos? I had about 6 eggs in different clutches and not an egg! all get rotten. The temp was ok, the humidity was ok. Maybe the sperm of the male? Yesterday i cut off the last rotten egg and a whittish fluid that smell like water mixed with flour came up. Do you know what this means?
~Greg~

[Clownfishie]

Neat Zoe! That must've been quite the experience...

[reptilez]

That happen to me with my beardies:D::D:D:D isnt it kool!!!
I was so excited:D

[JIMI]

that's gotta be awesome to see.. your camera probably takes short video clips right? would love to see that.

on a different note.. i like the new banner for ssnakess. it's easy on the eyes and loads quickly (even with a cable modem, every bit or byte counts)

[Zoe]

No, my camera is OLD! If you want to send me your camera, i'll take record the movement ;)

Zoe

[JKUROSKI]

Zoe, exactly what did you see when you candled your eggs. I just did my remaining eggs and I saw lots of large red veins and what appeared to be a dark mass at the bottom of each egg. Did your eggs look dark all through, like filled with a snake, or mostly liquid and a dark mass on the bottom. Just wondering if mine are dead or not.

[Zoe]

Mine look like that too. The top half is pinkish yellow with veins, and the bottom half is dark red and that's what is moving. Seems normal, what with the yolk and air bubble and all.

How many are left of your eggs?

Zoe

[JKUROSKI]

Well unfortunatly I only have two jungle eggs out of 26, 7 coastal eggs out of 35, and 9 out of 9 ball eggs. I really wish it would have been all carpets and few balls, but oh well, at least I'm getting some for myself. They are due on:

Ball Eggs
5/6,(5/10),5/13
Coastal Eggs
4/28,(5/2),5/13
Jungle Eggs
5/11,(5/18),5/25

[Jeff_Favelle]

How the heck did you manage to kill so many eggs?

[JKUROSKI]

Incubator miscalculation...fans too high=substrate too dry=eggs sucked dry.

[reverendsterlin]

when candling until the very last week there will be lots of space and little snake, but during that last week you can see daily growth of the dark mass of the snake.

[Jeff_Favelle]

That sucks James. I do hope you've since ditched any fans for future python egg incubation.

[Mardy]

I candled mine again and as above nice veiny on top and dark on bottom. tick-tock tick-tock

The waiting game is fun boys and girls. NOT

Mardy

[JKUROSKI]

Jeff, I have adjusted the wattage to the fans to reduce their speed and placed clear plastic wrap over the internal containers with a rubberband around them to prevent a draft from the fans and humidity/condensation is perfect. Too bad I have no new eggs to test it out with.

[Jeff_Favelle]

That plastic wrap sounds like a great idea. That way you won't have to open any lids to look at the eggs. I think it would work.

Very innovative.

[Dom]

I am not quite sure what the plastic wrap would serve?? I guess I am not seing the picture..



As for the fan .. Jeff .. do u incubate youpython eggs without convection .. Just curious..

I personally would use a fan at very low air flow..

[Jeff_Favelle]

Dom, I would never use a fan on any eggs, let alone Python eggs. No one I know does. It kills them everytime. I've hatched 100% of all the eggs I've had (from Pythons) using the same method since 1995.

How much air flow do the eggs get on them in the wild?

[JKUROSKI]

Jeff what do you use for an incubation method/incubator. My problem is that I have a heating element that is below a false floor and I need something to move the heated air throughout the incubator. I actually use clear containers so viewing is not a problem. The wrap is mainly just to keep it air tight. Dom, my fans where blowing under the tiny crack between the lid and the container and not allowing for high enough humidity within the internal containers. So the wrap and rubberband will seal them up and allow for condensation to form.

[JKUROSKI]

Jeff,
Captive propogation is nothing like "in the wild" nor is captive husbandry. I don't see your point here. I think fans in a incubator provides a much more consistant temp throughout the unit. I do agree that the eggs/medium itself should not be exposed to the drafts, as obviously it has negative effects on humidity/condensation.

[Mardy]

well I have a fan in mine but use small vent holes
in the egg container with no problems I think.

Mardy

[Jeff_Favelle]

James, gotta go to work, but I'll get some photos of the incubator when I get back.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Jeff,
Captive propogation is nothing like "in the wild" nor is captive husbandry. I don't see your point here.


James, you have to be joking me right? Re-think that statement and get back to me.

[JKUROSKI]

You said..."How much air flow do the eggs get on them in the wild?" And I am saying that there is no way you can replicate what happens to eggs in the wild, nor really know probably for that matter. I don't know how many wild ovipositions/incubations you have witnessed, but I believe you would find it pretty hard to duplicate any wild conditions. I also am sure you don't gradually elevate your heat over the course of the day, and provide rain showers, etc. There is no way to reproduce "the wild". Plus these animals are F8+ generations most likely...far removed from wild carpets. Captive husbandry/propogation is nothing like in the wild...like I said before.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Man o man. I think I had this conversation like 8 years ago. Weird how things go in cycles. Ok here are my thoughts (agree or disagree, it matters not to me):


You said:


Captive husbandry/propogation is nothing like in the wild

and...

There is no way to reproduce "the wild".

No one is saying to reproduce the wild. Not at all. But think about things for a minute (please). Why are there so many snakes in the world? Well Jimmy, there is because there are a million different habitats and within those habitats, millions of different microhabitats. And the sum of all those microhabitats that a snake (or any animal) exploits, is called its realized niche. Now you know all this because its Grade 11 Biology. How does this pertain to snakes? Tons. If a Carpet has taken millions of years to evolve to use a specific set of conditions for survival, food obtainment, and reproduction, how can we be so egotistical to think that none of that evolution matters in our husbandry practices? We can't (well, not if we want more than 50% hatch rates). Carpets live in neo-tropical to tropical environments. This is them in the wild. This is reality. So would you keep them in a cage outdoors in places above 40 degrees latitude? No. Why is that? Well, because you KNOW that Carpets are snakes that have evolved to exploit conditions that are radically different than those of animals from temperate regions. Therefore, the wild MATTERS! Don't ever think that it doesn't.

If Carpet eggs evolved to REQUIRE 84-92F temperature during incubation, then why would you give them differently? You wouldn't. If they required to NOT be soaking wet for the 55 day incubation, would you spray them every day? No. So if they have evolved to NOT have air flowing over them and drying them out, why on freakin' Earth would you put computer fans on them?? It doesn't make sense.

My point is (yes, there's a point) that captive husbandry stems from everything that the animal does in the wild. Carpets have usable temperatures, usable humidity levels, usable food sizes, usable photoperiods, bla bla bla. So we see what's usable and give it to them. Thankfully, Carpets have a wide, wide, wide range of things that can be usable. This is what we term hardy. It allows us to be idiots and screw up and yet they still live. Other snakes aren't so forgiving (Indo species).

And I am saying that there is no way you can replicate what happens to eggs in the wild,

I never said to replicate things. What I'm saying is that if an entity (the eggs in question) have evolved to incubate in a specific set of conditions, it would behoove us NOT to give them things outside that range of conditions. People have been incubating Carpets eggs for decades now. They don't use fans or airflow of any kind and they have 100% hatch rates. Then there's people who have the same temps and everything else is equal, except that they have fans and LOTS of air exchange and they have 10% hatch rate. Now, what do you think it is that the eggs don't like? What do you think it is that the eggs have evolved to NOT want?

Its all how they have evolved in the wild. And that matters. Well, it does if you want to keep them healthy and breed them for multiple generations.

[Dom]

You do prove a goodand obvious point Jeff but ..

You can add a fan to stabalize temps through out the container, known as convection .. gives u an overl better "cooking".

If u can minimise the airflow that atually have access to the eggs.. I see no problem in using a fan, but only advantages.. Of course I would never put a fan in a tupperware with the eggs but out side the tupperware .. at very low wattage with very few exchange between the inside air of the container and the outside..

I only see more stable temps.. ALTHOUGH .. if the air flow is too strong them then thats a recipe for disaster..

So its a gamble.. do it right and I think it can be advantegous but do it wrong .. hmmm crappy

[JKUROSKI]

Good points Jeff...I guess I can see it your way. What I am saying though is some incubator designs need fans. For example, when I determined that my incubator fans where the problem I turned them off. Temps then spiked to 106 degrees because the air wasn't moving and the thermostat wasn't tripped off. It is relative to my incubator design and maybe some others. All said and done, air movement on eggs is bad, within the incubator is ok.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Dom and James I definitely agree. A LOT of incubator designs demand that there is air flow in the unit. For sure. Especially those using heat tape. The heat is so localized that it needs to be moved around. But I would never use incubators of those design. However, many do and they get around the humidity issues by sealing off the eggs as much as possible. Its risky. Too risky for my blood.

Great conversation guys! :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Temps then spiked to 106 degrees because the air wasn't moving and the thermostat wasn't tripped off.


James, your thermostat should always be ON the eggs themselves. Literally, the Helix probe should be in the egg box lying on top of the eggs.

[JKUROSKI]

Well it would be on the eggs if that was what I was using...but unfortunately mine runs on a standard wafer so I was SOL. I need to invest some money in a new unit. Probably going to go with the safety hatch from bigappleherp.

http://www.bigappleherp.com/Pages/Product/750106.html

[Dom]

Interesting incubator.. CRAZY price though .. I am pretty sure with that amount of money u could build something better and bigger too.. Just my thoughts.. althoguh if u have the moeny .. all the power too you.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I agree Dom. Boy do I ever agree!

Incubators!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14845)