Feeding Gerbils Instead of Mice or Rats

[unknownclown]

Hey there :)
Since my larger female refuses rats and I dont think she is getting enough from the mice I feed her. Ive seen the posts on mice and rats and the growth rates but Im curious if anyone knows where gerbils stand in this. Would I be better off trying to get her to feed of rats. Is it even good for them to be power fed so they get larger faster? I know my doc wouldnt go for it ;) (not that I'd wanna ).
I was also wondering of the three foods mice, rats, and gerbils, which would be the fattiest or the meatiest. Im breeding all 3 at the moment which is why I ask.
Also Im curious if gerbils are thier natural food why dont more people feed these to thier ball pythons instead of rats and mice? Is there something I should know about the gerbils that I havent come across while trying to figure out the basic care of them that would make others not use them as a food source?
Am I just full of questions or what? Sorry but I realy have tried to find these answers other places but most sites are set up where gerbils are pets not a food source :rolleyes:
Thanks for the replies in advance and Happy Easter !

[marisa]

I *think* people don't fed gerbils because the Ball will get stuck on eating gerbils and for some people who have to buy them, gerbils are expensive compared to mice or rats.

Marisa

[Mike177]

well from what i have heard power feeding is not good and it can cut down on there total life span

[LILCREEP]

gotta agree with mike there ive heard the same

[Jeff_Favelle]

What's the definition of power feeding and when does a regular feeding schedule become a power feeding schedule? ie) how many items over what period of time? I'd be very interested if you actually KNEW the answer.

Its all very well and good that you hear things and you think things and you have theories, but what results and experience do you have to back those claims? Because without it, its just heresay. And that's something that we have an over-abundance of in the herp world.

[vanderkm]

We have used gerbils for feeders for several snake species, but only because I breed a color variety of gerbils and have an abundance of them left over.

Most people don't want to feed them because they cost a lot - due to the fact that they don't do well in colony breeding - they need to be kept as pairs and they have a very slow growth rate compared to rats or mice. It costs a lot more to produce the same weight of gerbil as it does a rat. They also waste a lot of feed - chew up the feed blocks without eating them and they create a lot of dust.

All that aside, we have seen growth spurts in snakes put on gerbils very similar to those we have gotten with rats and they are handy because one gerbil is the equivalent of about 3 mice - so easier to feed. I don't know the percentages of bone and fat for species though, but think a lot of the nutritional value in prey related to the ration the prey species is fed.

Many of our snakes (carpets and colubrids) refuse gerbils - even when offered pinks or fuzzies. When we fed them to our ball pythons, they preferred them to everything else, and I wouldn't give them to ball pythons unless you are prepared to keep them on gerbils - ours were hooked on them. Our boas and a couple carpets, a few kings and corns happily shift back and forth between any prey species. Seems to depend on the snake - just our experience.

mary v.

[mykee]

Jeff, I'd have to agree with you, many people speak ill of "power-feeding", but what is "power-feeding"? Anyone? Is my 10 month old ball "power-fed" because she weighs over 1000g's? Or is she just a good eater that doesn't refuse food? Quite honestly, I have never seen an "obese" ball, or an "overfed" ball. Come on people, these are animals with brains, albeit small brains however, they know not to eat themselves to death. If they are not hungry, you CANNOT force them to eat.

[unknownclown]

Thanks Mary :)
That was a very helpful post. I have noticed that the gerbils are a bit of.. I guess you could say slobs. They chew just to chew and sometimes not to eat. It is also good to know that they dont do good in colonies I will have to work around that since I plan on switching to gerbils to mice completely once I get enough breeders. For now Im just planning on putting my big girl on them and later I will switch the other 2. I realy dislike mice and soon they will be obsolete I am hoping since I only keep ball pythons and 2 boas. Personally I am thinkin that maybe gerbils are better just because it is their natural food. If thats what they prefer than maybe I'll have happy snakes, while my company wont be as creeped out to see gerbils instead of mice.

Jeff Im not sure if were you refering to me but I have stated over and over again that I am new to the "herp world" which is why you will see me ask the questions instead of trying to answer them, since I wouldnt know what I am talking about and should leave it up to those who do.
If you wanna know what I consider power feeding I will simply say that from what I have gathered it is feeding more than one mouse rat whatever per feeding.
As far as this is concerned...
Its all very well and good that you hear things and you think things and you have theories, but what results and experience do you have to back those claims? Because without it, its just heresay. And that's something that we have an over-abundance of in the herp world.
This is a forum where people go discuss theories. Forgive me for saying this but I didnt see anything in this thread that warranted that response. :confused:
eh oh well we all have our moments ;) Not to mention I read the posts in a hurry so who knows if I am being off the hook forgive me, Im sorry.

[DavidBeard]

I think the best way to define "power-feeding" is any excessive feeding, like for a baby ball, more frequently than every 7 days. I feed my adult ball every 10-14 days and it is in perfect health. You have to remember than digestion is very taxing on a snake's body and over-feeding can greatly affect the overall health and lifespan of a snake. Most of the time people over-feed in order to get the snakes to grow into breeding size more quickly, so they can produce babies quicker, meaning they are greedy and don't really care about their animals.

[Jeff_Favelle]

NO unknownclown, I was not referring to you. I was referring to people who said that they heard stuff and now think it to be true without proving it on their own accord, thus having no point of reference for very very false statements.

Quotes that I was referring to:

well from what i have heard power feeding is not good and it can cut down on there total life span

gotta agree with mike there ive heard the same


Now, to answer your question. If you feed a BP a gerbil, good like EVER switching it to rats. You think its tough now, well times that by a thousand. Gerbils are damn expensive and well, just too darned cute to feed off sometimes.

Now, you said that you'd rather feed her rats, but that you heard that power feeding is bad? I don't get the connection. Rats are bigger yes, but that doesn't automatically mean you're power feeding them (if that term even exists) if they eat a rat! So I don't understand your question about rats. It won't eat rats for you right now, but your worried about power feeding by feeding it a rat? I'm confused (not unusual).

Lastly.....

If you wanna know what I consider power feeding I will simply say that from what I have gathered it is feeding more than one mouse rat whatever per feeding.

Sorry, but that's an untrue statement. I have an old stubborn male Jungle that only eats mice. He just finished his 9th mouse and he has 6 more to go. That will take him about 20 minutes. "Power feeding" has nothing to do with feeding more than one item per sitting. 15 mice will not even put a dent in this male, whereas 2 180g rats would.

So I am still waiting for people's definition of power feeding. If we're gonna make definitions of terms that don't exist, we might as well make them somewhat true, right? There are very valuable lessons about herp husbandry to be learned here. Very valuable.

[Markus Jayne]

You've certainly bring up some good points Jeff. There is way too much hear say in this society and myphs abound.

I am no expert but I do believe that it is common practice for some people to power feed their snakes with hopes of breeding them sooner rather than later. I have seen grossly obese ball pythons posted by one particular individual in the US many times claiming to feed his balls every 3 days.

I have to admit that it is very tempting to do so but I feel that if you monitor each individual snake in regards to girth, but more importantly, length, you can adjust their diet accordingly.

I think that it is very easy to make a snake obese girth wise. And regardless how much you feed them, they will only grow in length as they are genetically inclined. It's like trying to feed your son more so he becomes taller quicker so he can become a basket ball player. My belief is that by feeding him more, you will not be able to make him grow taller quicker, just wider.

I also think the opposite does however have an ill effect. I think that by under feeding you can stunt growth and if it persists could lead to a snake that will never reach its full growth potential.

Most of my 2001 females are in the 1500 gram range and my 2002's are 800 - 900 grams. I make a point of studying each individual and determine through length and girth whether or not they are being fed too much (every 7 days).

But in the long run there is one decision maker that determines what is wrong or right.....the snake itself.

Be patient...it'll pay off in the end.

I don't know if this shed's any light on your initial question. They are just my observations.

MJ

[Jeff_Favelle]

Good stuff Mark

I definitely think there is a middle groun that one must try and achieve, with each snake being slightly different and each species being drastically different. But that's what makes all this so muh fun.

[unknownclown]

OK thanks for clearin that up Jeff I can be a ditz at times ;)
Sorry about confusing you, what I asked was if I would be better off feeding rats.
At the moment I have 2, 10 gallon tanks with breeder mice a 30 gallon tank with breeders, another 10 gallon with extra males that I havent figured out what to do with since I cant use them as feeders or have the space at the moment for breeders. I have a 10 gallon with breeder gerbils and 2 30 gallon tanks with rats one has a breeding pair in it the other a single male.
I also have breeding bunnies who just had 7 babies :) but those arent for me but someone who does snake rescues and cant afford 20 bucks a pop for feedings.

I would love to totaly phase out the mice I dont like them I hate touching them, they bite, and freak out company when the come over. So I plan on taking the 4 tanks with mice and replacing them with gerbils. Yes gerbils are cute but I dont mind ;) they still have the mentality of a mouse in my eyes since they run and hide and dont like to be pet. Maybe that would change if I spent more time with them but they are feeders, I have enough guilt :p Also once I have them on gerbils I dont plan on switching them to rats. Since gerbils are thier natural food and thier food of choice I will keep them on it after the switch. With 5 tanks Im sure I can keep up with the demand, well Im hoping anyway, if not Ill make more room.

I dont wanna switch them to rats because my daughter gets too attached I dont have the space and personaly I also get a bit attached. They may not be as cute as gerbils but they are 10 times more friendly than the gerbils I have. I cant walk by without them rushing the cage so I can pet them.
WHY oh WHY must they like me so dang much!

As far as the power thing goes if thats not the deffinition then I guess I dont have a clue. Which Im ok with if you are since I am new ;) Give me a some time to learn more and maybe Ill come up with another deffinition and we can compare notes again, or maybe you can sway me to see it your way who knows?

[Jeff_Favelle]

If you're going to breed gerbils for the duration of your BP's life then by all means, just feed them gerbils!! No problems there and you're BP's will gobble them up like its going out of style!

And with regards for the amount in which you feed them, well that's tough. BP's are really heavy-bodied pythons for their size, so make sure they are nice and plump. They are not a skinny snake by any means.

Good luck.

[vanderkm]

Unknown clown - just one more point in addition to what people have said about starting your ball pythons on gerbils - it may not be a problem for you, but I would caution you that personal circumstances can change and you may need to place or sell your ball pythons at some time. It is very hard to place ball pythons that only eat gerbils - very few people want to deal with that and while I know most people buy pet snakes intending to keep them, it might be something to consider.

I totally agree that killing rats is hard because they are so intelligent, but you might want to consider buying frozen rather than breeding your own prey. I bred feeders for a long time (still do keep a few) but have converted as many of my snakes as possible to frozen thawed rats and have found a reliable feeder breeder who cares about nutrition and selling a clean product (Thanks Ian - Mouseman.ca). It is just sooooooo much easier, I cannot believe it. I have more time for the snakes now that I am not dealing with breeding rodents. Just something to consider.

mary v.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yeah I forgot about that Mary, great point. If you ever need to sell your Ball Pythons in the future, not many people are going to be interested in a gerbil feeder.

Things to think about...

[fr0glet]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
I was referring to people who said that they heard stuff and now think it to be true without proving it on their own accord, thus having no point of reference for very very false statements.

The March, 2003, issue of Natural History magazine has an article completely backing up the power feeding = shortened life span stance. The article was based on controlled research. Hope this helps clear things up, you should be able to find an archived copy at a University library within a month or two. There's also a supporting article in Evolution 56: 1867-70, September 2002, under the title "Growth to Death in Lizards".

So I am still waiting for people's definition of power feeding. If we're gonna make definitions of terms that don't exist, we might as well make them somewhat true, right?

In my opinion power feeding would consist of feeding as soon as the animal defecates, multiple prey items every time. I don't have a problem with feeding right after they poo or feeding more than one prey item, but not a consistent basis.

Also, unknownclown, meat:bone ratios per ounce are higher in rats than mice or gerbils.

HTH all.

[Lisa]

Originally posted by unknownclown
[B]I dont wanna switch them to rats because my daughter gets too attached I dont have the space and personaly I also get a bit attached. They may not be as cute as gerbils but they are 10 times more friendly than the gerbils I have. I cant walk by without them rushing the cage so I can pet them.
WHY oh WHY must they like me so dang much!


lol we have that problem too... katey came up with the idea to sell rats to pet stores for pets and we would use the money to buy frozen feeders. to me that sounds like a bit more work. how ever neither of us likes killing rats (mice are lots easier). once we have the death chamber set up things should be easier.

[Jeff_Favelle]

No it doesn't clear things up.

1) We're not talking about lizards, we're talking about BP's. next thing you'll say that you can over-feed rabbits and guinea pigs. Topic is and was snakes.

2) Poperly kept snakes are almost impossible to over feed. Almost every breeder I've talked with concurs over the years. I trust the wisdom of people who've worked with thousands of these animals over numerous generations more than magazine articles and univeristy periodicals. Just my opinion.

[unknownclown]

Good point Mary and Jeff ;) my snakes are here for good though just like the dog, the cat, my male bunny and the kid. They are a part of my family now and no matter how much I wish you could you just cant sell your family off :p Im a pretty stable 33 year old bat with my own place. Im not goin anywhere.
But if something happens to me or god knows what and we do have to part our ways I can always supply whomever takes my little darlings with my gerbil colonies. Hell if Im gettin rid of the snakes I sure as heck dont need the gerbils anymore.

[fr0glet]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
No it doesn't clear things up.

1) We're not talking about lizards, we're talking about BP's. next thing you'll say that you can over-feed rabbits and guinea pigs. Topic is and was snakes.

2) Poperly kept snakes are almost impossible to over feed. Almost every breeder I've talked with concurs over the years. I trust the wisdom of people who've worked with thousands of these animals over numerous generations more than magazine articles and univeristy periodicals. Just my opinion.

Well Jeff, if it doesn't clear it up it at least lends some credence to the statement (which I believe you were calling for, credence that is) that power feeding can reduce a herp's life span.

Re: 1) You're right. The articles were on lizards. However the research can still be deemed at the very least relevant, as it is reptilian.

Re: 2) Very valid points on people who have worked numerous generations, however the articles I mentioned were also drawn on research by people who have many years experience with the animals in question. Perhaps as much (or more) as your friends. The journals hosting the articles are to be considered reputable sources for research.

My somewhat flippant comment "hope this clears things up" was substantiating that there is indeed research and evidence to the contrary of what you believe. I think you said (not quoting, paraphrasing) that people making incorrect statements should keep their mouths shut rather than present misinformation.

I would ask you to consider the possibility that the opposition to your argument is indeed viable. In any case, it is obvious that a more specific controlled experiment (with BPs, of course) is called for if a true result is to be found.

You have my highest regards,
fr0glet

[Lisa]

Hey what about hamsters? how do they compare to gerbils.

[unknownclown]

Thats something else Ive wondered about Lisa. I mean I load my rodents up on a high protien diet just imagine how much more the snake would be getting since they not only eat it but cram thier cheeks with food they havent eaten yet. Although I dont know anything about a snakes digestive system to know if they would be able to handle it so I havent tried it.

[Jeff_Favelle]

unknownclown :


Its been shown that the best diet for feeder rodents is a low-protein diet. This can be accomplished with the crappiest dog food available.

Reason? Well think what a snake eats in the wild. Wild rodents. And what do those wild rodents eat? Well, they most certainly don't chase down rabbits and deer and eat them, LOL! Nope. They eat seeds, plant tubers, nuts, etc etc etc. Things low in protein. I know it sounds weird, but rodents have more than enough protein for your snakes on their own. They don't need to be fed high-protein diets. Most of that stuff was worked out 20 years ago.

Best of luck.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Froglet, I totally agree. While the lizard research is indeed valuable and somewhat relevant, only concrete, and therefore useful, answers will be found in controlled and rigorous experiments with the species in question. Problem is, no university in their right minds is going to research it, and no breeder in the world is going to waste their time and animals to bother. Not to mention its going to take way way too long to prove anything either way definitely. And experiments that are big in space and time generally don't get done.

And that leaves us to speculate.

Or.....

We can use the information we have and extrapolate:

People have been breeding Ball Pythons (and other snakes) for decades now and the people who were the first breeders are still feeding their snakes as much as they will eat. Now, if these snakes were dying off, you'd think they'd change their practices no? I mean, especially when dealing with $20,000 Balls.

But again, its not a definite answer.

Tough call....

[unknownclown]

I like ya Jeff you like a good debate just like I do, unfortunately I cant contribute much since I am still learning.

Although it would be realy hillarious and entertaining to see a rat bring down a deer, ( Now I got that killer bunny from the Holy Grail stuck in my head) Im with you it wont ever happen. (I hope) And since it wont ever happen I wont ever have to worry about throwing a T bone or even stew meat into their cages at feeding time ;) But I think wild rats and mice do indulge quite a bit in eating bugs and worms which are very high in protien. Once again you wont catch me throwing worms, moths and beetles in thier cages either. What I give them though to replace the lack of bugs in thier diet is dog and cat food along with kidney beans, sunflower seeds and dried split peas. Of course I mix in other things as well there is the rabbit pellets for the greens they are lacking and corn, cherios and oat meal for the grains they arent getting as well.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha Holy Grail. Too funny. Almost as funny as the Meaning of Life!!

[Jeff_Favelle]

But to really learn, you have to participate in the debates you see on these forums. Remember studying for school and reading gobs of books and periodicals? How much of that actually sunk in and stuck? Maybe 10%? If you don't participate, then learning will be that hard.

Cheers.

[tHeGiNo]

My lord Jeff, THANK YOU. Please, everyone who is saying this, where and what proof that you have that giving more then one food item is powerfeeding? I have always been speculation on what powerfeeding is, as I always see people referring to this term. However, as apparant here, it seems there IS no definition of power feeding. I feed my female 2 adult mice every week, is that powerfeeding because I am giving her more then one prey item?

[DavidBeard]

I don't think that power-feeding entails more than one prey item. You could feed x numer of mice that would equal x number of rats or whatever. I think power-feeding has more to do with frequency than anything. If you feed your snake every 3 days, that is excessive and would be considered power-feeding. You have to find a right balance between frequency and prey size that properly fits your snake's size, age, etc.

[fr0glet]

We're all going to have opinions of what powerfeeding is, and that's all that can really be used to define it. I agree with DavidBeard's definition of power-feeding, and I think it a very loose term. Another thing I think helps define powerfeeding is the consistency of your feeding regime.

Incidentally, as an example of how powerfeeding can be a detriment, I have a cornsnake in rescue who was fed two prey items twice a week for 8 years (aside from brumation and post-brumation breeding seasons when he would refuse food). He has fatty deposits down both sides of his body near his organs, as well as a LARGE fat pad on his lower belly. He will probably die prematurely of organ failure or fatty liver disease; compare to life-threatening complications from obesity in humans. Hopefully I'll get to follow his life out and see what his span really is! He's currently 8 years old.

Pictures of that snake's lumps are available if anyone wants to see them.

[marisa]

I just fed them when they look hungry. Which means they all get fed when they are seen cruising the cage by day. And if they are at the point of cruising the cage by day, then you know they were out all night looking for food, but really getting some exercise! :)

With my BP his "when I am hungry" is about every 5-7 days. He really starts getting active, and the next day I fed him. The corns normally get 7 days, and if they are eagerly searching for food then I give it to them. Sometimes they wait as long as 14 days, or as little as 5.

Marisa

[fr0glet]

Marisa I think you've got things all figured out :)

I feed on either Saturday or Sunday, and about once every 1-2 months I'll skip a week. Today was feeding day, and my young bp who's been refusing food for 3 weeks finally succumbed(sp?) to the braining method! :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Its not so cut and dry like that. If I had a corn that I kept at 72F constant for 24 hours every day and I fed it 1 adult mice a week, it could get fat. Without the proper temps for thermoregulationm snakes will get fat. Have you ever been to where a BP lives? It is damn hot. I mean unbearable.

I have a male Ball that's 11 months old and weighs 1100 grams. You'd think he was fat and over-fed right? Nope. He's the skinniest Ball I have ever seen (save for the crappy imports that come in every year). Why is that? Access to the proper temps. So my opinion, based on my years of breeding is: you cannot overfeed snakes that have access to the correct temperatures for thermoregulation. Its impossible. The food goes right through them.

Thoughts?

[tHeGiNo]

Hmmm, I think that is highly probable, I honestly do. In fact I have never even thought of it that way. If it IS false, I'm sure it is fair to say the chances of an obese snake are greatly reduced with the proper temperatures. Nevertheless, it is definitely a debatable statement.

[fr0glet]

That's a fantastic angle, and one I haven't considered enough. I have no idea what the temps of that corn were for his life, he was in neodesha cages with overhead lighting only.

So if digestion is greatly slowed by decreased temperatures, would the snake still eat as much as offered? Could an underheated snake be powerfed?

Your point makes perfect sense in the debate Jeff... that snakes kept at the high end of their temperature range will always process meals better and perhaps even thrive more. In my opinion accurate temperatures are the most important husbandry issue, most often overlooked.

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's an excellent question Froglet. It would boil down to what the clues are for a snake to seek out food (unless they are completely 100% opportunistic, which might be the case). So if the clues are temperature related, then cold temperatures would induce fasting. But it could be other factors. Circadian Rhythm, humidity, barometric pressure, photoperiod, etc etc etc. Who knows. Check out this post by a guy who's bred snakes longer than I've been alive. It'll definitely open your eyes. Read the whole thread.




http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Current&message=4389

[Jeff_Favelle]

In my opinion accurate temperatures are the most important husbandry issue, most often overlooked.

That's the smartest sentence I've heard in a long long time. And unfortunately all too obvious. Let me word it another way:

"I think that temperature control for animals that are ectothermic and cannot create their own heat to metabolize their food to exist is the most important part of husbandry."

Sounds kinda funny and obvious when I word it that way eh? Pretty much every problem in reptile keeping can be traced back to temperatures. Either too high, or, in most cases, too low. But not so cut and dry either. Sometimes, in the case of monitors and other diurnal reptiles, they need a range. A huge range. So there is no one right temperature. Keeping reptiles is not easy. They are at the mercy of the keeper and a lot of times, the keeper hasn't a clue.

Great debate, thanks for sharing!! :D :D

[BoidKeeper]

Jeff if you can't over feed/power feed then how do we explain this; I have a 02 female that I was feeding F/R then H/R every 5 days or so since July 02. I recently cut her back to once a week because she started to get fat. Rolls and creases fat. She has lots of floor space and a hot spot that ranges between 90-95. So my question is why is was she getting fat instead of continuing to grow? On Aug 11th she weighed 134g. On Nov 23rd she weighed 349g. On Feb 20th she weighed 573g and then on the 13th of Apr she weighed 720g. I measured her last shed on the 23th of April and it was just over 36" which means that she is not even 3 feet yet. That was a big jump. Is it an individual metabolism thing? I hope this helps add a new twist to the debate.
Thanks

[jncoclub]

In the beginin gour BP wouldn't eat anything but black gerbils. It was getting expensive (even with the "friend discount" from the owner). It may have just been luck, but we got her to switch to rats. I've found that when we were feeding live, the gerbils definitely put up a bigger fight compared to the rats. Be careful. That's my 2 bits.

[tHeGiNo]

BoidKeeper, I may be mistaken but to fully debate your problem we would probably need more info. Number one, how many items were you feeding every 5 days and what size. If it is a July 02 you probably should have cut back to once a week anyways. What are you using to measure temps, is it a reliable thermometer?

[BoidKeeper]

1 F/R then 1 H/R at a time. I use a laser thermometer similar to a reytek. It has been calabrated against murcury and it's very acurate. As far as I know she was born in the spring of 02 and I got her in July of 02.
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Could be many things Trev.:

Are all people skinny? No. Are all people fat? No. Is it ALWAYS diet that governs why people are skinny or fat? Nope. So that leaves genetics. Some animals are just predispositioned to store more adipose tissue (fat) than other animals, even of the same species.

But it could be something more. Maybe the prey items are all wrong in their content. Maybe your feeder rodents are fed heavy protein and fat. Maybe not, but that's a factor to consider.

90-95F? That's warm, but Balls have been lasered at 100F in the wild. Heck, even Cal-Kings have been lasered at 103F in the States in the wild. Have you ever got down to the ground (Ball microclimate) on a hot day in a dry area with little to no vegetation? Its nuts! I mean you could pass out from the heat. Literally.

Also, there's the consideration of exercise. Snakes in captivity don't get enough of it and its often overlooked, especially with Ball Pythons, as they are the king of "rack snakes".

No movement and lower temperatures = one fat snake!

But again, without being around your setup and seeing your snakes every day, how can I possibly know the answer?

[fr0glet]

I found the varanus forum thread very interesting, and also enjoyed learning about Circadian rhythm, which apparently has a million implications! Thanks for the brain-boost.

I need to get a thermal heat gun, badly. One can only get so accurate with digital thermometers and wire sensors.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Froglet, being in the Pacific Northwest, go down the street and get this one from these guys!!!



https://secure.ioncart.net/beanfarm/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=6&cat=Thermometers+and+Hydrometers


Circadian Rhythm is crazy. It makes my head hurt sometimes thinking about it, so I usually opt for an easier explanation to things, ha ha!

[eyespy]

I've worked as a veterinary surgical tech for 15 years and seen thousands of snakes that died an untimely death due to liver diseases such as fatty liver disease (the reptile version of cirrhosis) and gout. These problems are caused by a diet too high in fat and protein that the animal cannot effectively metabolize. Too low temperatures can contribute to this problem but it's mainly overfeeding that causes it.

Ball pythons were one of the most common species we saw, but I can't say for sure if they are more prone to it. Since we were a surgery-only clinic we didn't really have the tools needed to track the husbandry of a patient over its lifetime. It might just be that balls are very popular and not very active so we ran into more balls with liver disease.

Both of these diseases are usually fatal, if in the early stages you can go in surgically and remove the fatty or calcified damage and hope the liver is still healthy enough to regenerate. However, since snakes don't show obesity, dropsy and jaundice the way mammals do in liver failure it's very tough to get an early diagnosis.

[marisa]

There are SOOOO many variables!!!

I mean one could feed high protien high fat mice to a snake on a meager schedual, while heating him minimum.....he be a fat snake although not "overfed"

Someone else might feed rodents better suited nutrionally to a snake, have high heating and feed every 3 days and have a fat snake.

Or two people could be doing both those things above and have slim snakes.

I think there are too many factors for anyone to say what schedual any snake should be on. All of them are slightly individuals, get different quality feeder mice, have different heat gradients, etc.

That's why personally I just use the animal to tell me when it wants to eat. I know that they can be gluttons though, (corns big time!!) So I feed one prey item. If the snake is hungry enough every 5 days, so be it. But like I mentioned before, some go for two weeks. Even once three weeks before I saw enough activity to feel he was hungry enough. If the snake is getting a "fat" look then I hold off even more days after I notice activity.

I keep a gradient for my corns at 90 warm side - room temp (around 70 here) and they use all sides. Nothing better than allowing them to choose what temp they want and not limit them to the normal room temp - 82 gradient, IMHO

Marisa