View Full Version : Damn Laws!!!! Hate it!!!!
Hey guess what happened today? I was about to go out my door to go to school and all that. All of a sudden there was this guy in front of my door. He told me what he was one of those people from the London Human Society. Then he came into my house and walked and talked a bit. Then gave me this stupid warning about having too many snakes at home. Then I asked him how much are we allowed to have at home.....then he told me that by law, we are only to have a max of 2 snakes that are less than 2 feet long at home. Anything more than that is against the law!!!! So basically I am to get rid of my whole collection except 2 that are less than 2 feet long!!!!! I am really mad right now! Cause there are basically no snakes that are going to be less than 2 feet long and there are no way that I am only going to keep 2 snakes in my house!!! I am going to go for the law thing! I am going to be calling the City Hall and talk about this for sure! What do you think??
Oh I am just so mad right now!!!!!!!!!!!!
Any suggestions to what I should do guys and gals?
Stalabros
03-12-03, 05:32 PM
Do you live in ontario?
I believe the guy is feeding you a bunch of bull.
Why did you let the guy walk into your house, you have the right to say no.
I hope you got his name and any other identifying information, because when you talk to anyone from the city they will ask you where you got this information.
As for keeping snakes tht are no longer than 2 feet, no one would be able to keep any snakes other than worm or blind snakes (and a few others). So I think that this guy was just trying to scare you.
Have you annoyed your neighbours recently?
I think he is pulling your leg. Should not have let him into your house in the first place.
I have never heard of a bylaw which says pet snakes have to be under 2ft.... are you sure he didn't mean 2 metres?
RachelS.
03-12-03, 05:42 PM
Hey, you should like... hide them! That's the gayest thing I've ever heard! All you can really keep are like hognose snakes and maybe a sand boa or 2... that's (I would like cuss or something but since it's not allowed here, let's say...) BULLCRAP!!!
But seriously dude...you shouldn't take your snakes out to show people or anything, and if they come search your home, make sure your snakes are well hidden. Heck, that's what I'd do, lmao!
Just my 2 cents :rolleyes:
ReptiZone
03-12-03, 05:48 PM
exatly most law requier under 6 feet and unles you disturbe the public you are not restricted on how many you can haveas far as letting the guy in I would not have done that cause now he can make a petition about reptiles and can use your colection and your neibours against you. A reptile collection is fore your self not the rest of the world you can share it only with those you trust it is insaine but it is the only way I opperat and that keeps me and collection out of the papers any kind of papers
unknownclown
03-12-03, 05:52 PM
Id go with what Rachel said as a last resort. Check out the laws to make sure the guy was right and go from there. If all else fails and they come back to see if you got rid of them hide them. I dont know about Canada or where ever youre at but here in the states they need a warrant to come into the house. That law just doesnt sound right to me and Id be completely ticked if some stranger came into my house and told me what I could and couldnt have as a pet.
How in the heck did they find out about the snakes anyway?
Where can people living in Onatrio read their by-laws? Can it be done online or do you have to call or request this information?
Marisa
I'm REALLY sorry to hear that Simon. Unfortunately, those laws DO exist although not strictly enforced. It says only two reptiles per dwelling, no snakes over 24", and no lizards over 12".
You should feel fortunate that he only gave you warning. My guess is, that once he saw that you keep your snakes in excellent conditions, decided not to push the matter but only make you aware of the laws. IMO, I wouldn't raise a stink.
Bryce Masuk
03-12-03, 06:49 PM
Freak out tell them they are not allowed to come on YOUR property if you own where you live they cannot enter with out you saying so even the police cant come on your property with out reasonable suspition freakin idiot trying to steal your freedom fight em fight em hard
Stalabros
03-12-03, 07:50 PM
As for the post above, I would ignore it, it can only get you into a bigger bind.
If anyone shows up at my door, city inspector or not, I don't let anyone into my home unless absolutely necessary. I hear too many stories of people encountering problems once the municipality they live in knows they have snakes. Well, I think the best way to go about it is to refuse entrance to a supposed inspector. Home privacy is very important and if they really want to come in and see, let them get a darn search warant. I know those a hard to get so just stand your ground when someone come knocking next time.
Pixie
I'd just keep it hush, and get rid of any snake related web refferences of you living in london.
He is right Simon.... Sorry to hear that. My vet told me that anything over 2' was in violation of London bylaws.
I think you should not make to much noise....just bring alll your snakes to my house...lol.
I know.....no time for jokes.
Call me if there is anything I can do!
Dino
Who the hell makes up these dumb-*** bylaws anyway?!? 2ft!?!?!?!?! For God's sake! Our government is run by a bunch of bloody monkeys! We have a bunch of idiots making stupid laws. I just don't understand what these stupid people are thinking of when they make these laws.
Ok I can understand laws concerning venemous reptiles or having to have permits for really big reptiles but nothing bigger than 2ft!? What are they worried about? Worried that someones 4ft ball python is going to escape and choke someones twinkie?!
sigh....
I have checked the law of London already. it is true. I can only have 2 snakes that are less than 2 feet long only......so I am either going to challenge the stupid law (since I have talked to my counselor that represents my area). He told me that I can try and change it but he also told me that this had been done before and did not succed.......
I guess that there are basically two or three options that I can do...1) move away from london and find a better place to live 2) challenge the stupid law 3) just ignore it.....which I think that they'll just hunt me down and kill me instead....
I just hate this stupid law and I have no idea why this is..... I will try and apply for a business permit or something so that I can keep the snakes~~ I am not going to give up my babies just like that~~~ I heard from Rich that he has applied for a snake farm.....I wonder if London would allow me to do that too......sigh...
good luck, if you challange it hope you win. you would probably have to show the benifit to the comunity (money) and how snakes and lizards are not a danger to society (good luck)
I think it is because of cases like this that we need to educate the public much more so that stupid laws like this are not made. I would still like to know who makes the rules though and who protests the changes to this silly 2ft law... they need a good kick in the "chitther" ("bum" in punjabi)!
Its like telling people that they are only allowed to keep chihuahuas (I probably spelt that wrong) and that keeping anything the size of a collie or a Jack Russel would be illegal and dangerous! lol
Tim_Cranwill
03-13-03, 12:13 AM
That is <b>SO</b> friggin' stupid! I really hope you find some loop-hole because it would be such a shame to lose your animals over an idiotic law like that. :(
Let us know if there's ANYTHING we can do....
Bryce Masuk
03-13-03, 12:20 AM
you know why this happens FEAR its the 1# fear in women and #3 in a america in a survey of only like 1000 people but still even then it shows that the general public is afraid of snakes
Jeromerules
03-13-03, 02:02 AM
Yeah that's true. People think that a little constrictor will come and bite then and inject venom in them while they sleep. Frick that law is stupid. I may suggest fighting it. But if that does not work Dino does live in London too I would lay low and tell them that you sold the snakes and maybe keep them at dino's or something and then you could get them back and tell them they need a search warrant if they ever came back. Just try not showing your snakes off in say Hmmm the next 10 years. Or just move somewhere else if you're old enough.hehehe.
I dunno
Up To you bro
L8er and GOOD LUCK
Jerome
Jeff Hathaway
03-13-03, 07:04 AM
Simon,
You should get a copy of the actual text of the by-law. City hall can send you a copy, but they might ask why. It would be better to go in on your own and photocopy it. Then you will know what your options are regarding exemptions, if there are any, for businesses, farms, etc. Some by-laws have them, others don't.
I've never heard of a 2' limit before, but nothing about reptile by-laws surprises me anymore. There are Ontario municipalities that prohibit all snakes, or all reptiles, or worse. Who makes these by-laws? Our municipal politicians, with consultation from their animal control staff.
For now, I would do nothing. The humane society is not the city. According to the London public library website, the humane society is not responsible for animal by-law enforcement (London Animal Care Centre is). Don't do anything to officially let the city know about your animals, and hope that the humane society leaves it at that. Definitely don't let them back into your house, unless you have hidden your animals (and their enclosures!).
If the city presses the issue, they will should send you something in writing. The odds of them trying to charge you without warning you in writing are slim, unless you have a major incident (i.e. high profile escape). They will send you something saying 'get rid of your snakes or else'. At this point, you will need to decide what course of action to take. The 'or else' usually is a fine, which may be applied on a daily basis until you comply, so make sure you plan ahead and have some place to send your animals quickly if you need to.
Your options, as I see it:
1) Move. Often the easy way out, but not always.
2) Get rid of the offending animals. You can try a temporary arrangement but this may not work. Usually if the city is involved, there has been a complaint from someone nearby, who will probably find out if you get them back.
3) Fight the by-law. This means waiting for them to charge you and take you to court. They may not, if they think it isn't worth it. However, if they do, you could face a costly fight. You can defend yourself, but most people would be doomed without a lawyer. The by-law (at least as it pertains to snakes) does sound quite excessive and I think you would have a decent chance to beat it, but that is just my opinion. It is easy to say this now; harder when the legal bills start to add up.
Since you have already talked to your local politician, I would continue that dialogue (nothing in writing, unless you hear more from the city). See how he or she feels about whether the by-law could be revised. Try to round up some community support (London voters) to convince them that it would be a reasonable thing to do. Don't ask for the moon, just something reasonable and in line with what other municipalities are doing. This is the preferred way to change a by-law, without a court battle! It can be done, but don't think it will be easy...
While writing this, I started doing a search- here is the text of the London animal by-law, effective since 1994: http://www.city.london.on.ca/Cityhall/CorpServices/CityClerks/ByLaws/animals2000.pdf
Overall, the by-law isn't too bad, but the reptiles part (Class 5 animals for non-venomous snakes & lizards, Class 4 for turtles) is pretty restrictive. The 24" rule is terrible, and also the possession limit of 2 applies to all animals (which includes birds and reptiles, but not fish or dogs!).
Please keep me updated with the progress of your situation, and don't hesitate to email me if I can be of further help.
Good luck,
Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!
Alicewave
03-13-03, 07:47 AM
Yikes! Even my little Rosy is longer than 2 feet. That is completely lame! I say move but good luck with whatever you decide.
Dont know if this helps, but here is Toronto's bylaw regarding reptiles, where it prohibits:
Crocodylia (such as alligators, crocodiles, gavials)
All snakes which reach an adult length larger than 3 metres
All lizards which reach an adult length larger than 2 metres.
All venomous and poisonous animals.
Link:
http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/legdocs/bylaws/1999/law0028.htm
Also, here is Brampton's bylaw regarding:
No boids
No venomous reptiles
No crocodilians
No arachnids
They do not seem to have a maximum length limit, but by banning all boids, they have automatically set a limit of 7-8 feet.
Link:
http://www.city.brampton.on.ca/bylaws/Animal%20Control.pdf
Just like Jeff H said, perhaps these bylaws would help you show that London's bylaws are too restrictive, I cannot think of many snakes that have an adult length of 2 feet.
Hope this helps.
I think Toronto has the most sensible law out of the lot.
I would not mind having to get a permit to to keep a crocodilian or a giant snake or even a lizard larger than 2 metres. Getting a permit to keep some of these high maintenance animals would mean that you have to prove that you have knowledge on the animal in question and the ability to keep it in a suitable condition (keep the animal healthy and safe and the people of the house too).
DragnDrop
03-13-03, 10:22 AM
I just checked the London by-laws online. Unfortunate, but true - 2 ft and max two pets (with a few exceptions) You can download the PDF file online at
London By-Laws (http://www.city.london.on.ca/Cityhall/CorpServices/CityClerks/ByLaws/bylaws.htm)
Check under Public Health - Animal Control By-law - PH3 (15 pages)
Some of the animal/pet restrictions in that city are the craziest I've ever read. If it weren't such a serious matter, I'd say it was an April Fools joke for some or the laws they have.
Stalabros
03-13-03, 12:57 PM
OK, I live in Hamilton, ON, and I spoke with a city representetive. She told me that under By-Law 84-191 the former city of Hamilton prohibits keeping of any reptiles. The good news is that this By-Law was written in 1984 and Hamilton has since amalgameted into a mega city. This means that all By-Laws will have to go under review. Hopefully when they rewrite the laws, they will make more sense.
vanderkm
03-13-03, 02:07 PM
So sorry to hear this Simon. Jeff has some very good advice that hopefully will help you sort this out and decide what to do. Best of luck, it can often be very difficult to make these kinds of changes.
mary v.
ReptiZone
03-13-03, 02:14 PM
you should jump on the oppertunatie to get a sensible law B4 they review it. Cause once it is there it is hard to change so if you give your point of view now they may take it into conserdiration you should talkt to grant from P.C.P.C he was helped out in the past with laws and stuff like that so I hear.
Hamster of Borg
03-13-03, 02:23 PM
The laws are silly, but I think its a very good lesson to others. Check your local laws before you buy. For your snake and the animal's sake. :P
Ham
ballpython5000
03-13-03, 02:47 PM
hmmm laws really do suck.......
people with a fear of snakes let their fear take over. 2 feet is insane. my god i cant express in words how pissed off stuff like that makes me. i hope you and ur herps get through it. and how did they find out?
gonesnakee
03-13-03, 05:09 PM
AGAIN WE CITIZENS ARE VICTIMS OF GOVT OPPRESSION, THEY HAD BETTER HOPE THAT THEY HAVE COME TAKEN MY GUNS BEFORE THEY DARE TO TRY FOR MY SNAKES! (NOT JOKING!)
MARK I. - GONE SNAKEE!
P.S. To Damien & everyone else, yes I know this isn't the right way to go about it & I'm not the type to take the above approach, despite really wanting too heh heh. My post wasn't as serious as everyone elses, I just wanted to see peoples reactions etc. Unfortunately the best way is to go thru all the red tape & play by the rules, despite the fact that those who make them are usually uninformed idiots. Mind you they could say the same thing about people who don't check up on the laws before they purchase "exotic pets" & then freak out once they realize that they are in violation of the laws & risk charges, losing specimens etc. Just goes to show that you should do some research before taking on animals. Oh & Damien I still love ya so don't lose any sleep LOL. M.I.
Did the society rep outline the reprimand that comes after a warning? What would they do, get a warrant for your snakes? Fine you until you rid them? Put you in jail? Really, I can't see that it will turn into a big deal as long as you start writing down names, dates/times of visits and for goodness sake, have them leave something with you in writing!
Hope this turns out well for you.
Bj
Damien Aube
03-13-03, 07:02 PM
Simon,
The best thing you can do is, suck it up! Your in the wrong and shouldn't fight the laws until you've gotten rid of your herps!
I'm not talking about sellin' 'em. Get someone to take them in for a while, then launch your campain. We're fighting the ANTI-PITTBULL laws here in Edmonton, and I'll tell ya, get militant on the powers that be and they'll hand your head back to ya. Be rational about this, educated and you have a chance at changing things. Give them the "WHEN YOU PRY THEM FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS" routine, and forget it!! Your sunk like the Titanic.
Damien
Damien Aube
03-13-03, 07:15 PM
Mark......
You and I are friends, but DUDE!!!!!! that last comment is EXACTLY the reasoning people use to create the laws like the one banning Simons herps!! Your post gives fuel to the fire on "ALL HERP OWNERS ARE GUN TOTIN" BIKER TYPES". I know from our previous disscussions your a passionate dude about the hobby, but don't turn passion into ignorance.
If you thing "big brother" isn't reading these forums.............THINK AGAIN. I personally know someone in Fish & Wildlife, who frequents these forums to police them for Alberta's by-laws!
And one last thing, remember this--In Canada if you get bit by a snake, you simply go to the hospital and get stiched up, in the US you go pay $1000's of dollars and maybe get average care. Paying of course for every follow up and prescription. Once and a while our "OPPRESSIVE" gov't does the right thing.....agree??
Damien (hopefully still your bud!)
I have to Agree with what Damien said. It sucks but saying what you said just makes you look foolish no mater how right you are. (and trust me I feel the same way). as far as the problem I would just not do anything. Inless they seemed like they would come back. the I guess youe'd have to. but if you just wait it out and dont let anyone into your house or herp room you can't trust then you should be fine. best of luck.
I am not sure about Canada, but here in the states, we have rights. They can't come in unless invited without a warrant. I would try and change the law. Start a petition drive. Take a doy off from work and picket in front of the town hall W/ your snakes in hand. If all else fails, come on down to Tennessee. America has it's faults, but I would still rather be here than anywhere else.
Hi all!
Thanks for all the advice and the comments...yes I think that the law sucks really bad up here in Canada.....
before the stupid human society comes back to my place again I'll have to move all the snakes to my friends place (which is only two floors below me....which is pretty good....) I guess that the only thing that I can do is to leave them at my friend's place until the stupid human society comes and checks my house that there are no more snakes in the building before moving them back up.....sigh.....I will change the locks and everything in my building once I get my snakes back into my house for sure!
Cause I think what happened was that the stupid building manager came into my house (when I was not at home) to do something to the building and once they got into my house they found all these snakes and stuff......and then called the human society.......so just to let you all know.....I HATE THE MANAGEMENT OF MY BUILDING!!! I HATE THE STUPID MANGERS EVEN MORE!!!
Sorry just had to let that out.......
Geez, here in the US even building management cannot come into your home without giving you prior notice and getting your permission, unless it's a matter of public safety like a gas leak. If evidence is gathered while breaking this law it is thrown out of court.
I'd check and see what the landlord/tenant laws are like in your city and province to see if you have that protection too. That way you'd have time to temporarily house your animals with a friend and avoid future trouble.
The landlords must give notice/ask permission for entry here in ontario and I imagine most of canada.
Yeah, even in Canada, landlords/building maintenance must give notice before entering your home, unless it is due to an emergency.
jpaulson
03-15-03, 08:01 PM
At times, the laws can suck. But, whether they are right or wrong, they are a condition that we live under. I hate to give the ol "must have laws to keep peace" speech, but much of it applies here. Someone in this thread also made a comment about anti-pitbull petitions. Is that so hard to believe?
Laws are created to protect the general public, even though at times, we think they are stupid. If you do not put a limit on things, then things get out of hand. I will agree, only two snakes under 2 feet seems crazy. But, you did say that you live in London? Here in the states, the cities with larger populations have stricter regulations...to protect the citizens. Having a 15 foot burm running loose in a small country town would be bad enough....having one loose in London or NYC would be tragic.
After you cut your collection down to the legal limit, then start that petition--see what can be done. Until then, keep quiet.
Breaking laws, (true, you did not know) only adds to the already extreme fear that the public have of reptiles, snakes in particular. Spouting off or making a scene will only add to this.
The first question I would be asking myself, though, is how did they find out????
tHeGiNo
03-15-03, 09:35 PM
LOL no offense buddy but listen to yourself, I wouldn't think a member on this forum would talk like that.
Here in the states, the cities with larger populations have stricter regulations...to protect the citizens. Having a 15 foot burm running loose in a small country town would be bad enough....having one loose in London or NYC would be tragic.
Dude, its a burmese python, think really hard what your saying, it is the mentality of people like yours who place these laws. A burm on the loose ISNT a murderer with a gun. Snakes aren't out they to attack us, its not like their priority in life is to attack and "kill" humans. What is so tragic?! Like seriously, the worst is he eats a cat, then is full for a week. By then, he should be found anyhow. Yes of course there is a possiblilty of he/she biting someone but its not like the snake can kill anyone. Thats like saying we should ban steak knifes because I can kill somone with it or accidentally drop it on someone, cutting them or whatnot. Honestly, sorry to be a prick I just had to let that out.
snakemann87
03-15-03, 11:00 PM
hey, this is replying to those who said you shouldnt have let him in. I agree. I know its over but for a warning, I read an article were someone was told that they had to get rid of all their snakes immediately so he did, and it turns out the guy was a fraud and there was no such law, so he was basically robbed
snakemann87
03-15-03, 11:02 PM
oh and i agree with the gino 100%, a burm on the loose is only in the news cause people think they are out to constrict and eat us.
Bryce Masuk
03-16-03, 12:11 AM
Here in canada we no longer have rights because NO ONE stands up for them. The main problem is lack of organization when everyone says no you cant do that its stopped done finished. but when one person is alone for there cause well they are crazy because they are different then the general public. but in america people dont take crap they get together. because there country is based upon freedom ours is all about getting screwed over by government look at the freaking history and the present not to say america doesnt have its faults and yes there are many but its all about freedom or at least making you feel free which is better then feeling screwed over
One fed up canadian
Bryce masuk
tHeGiNo
03-16-03, 08:34 AM
Yea, well that IS true, there are a lot of major screw ups in Canada. However there are some good things too, such as free healthcare and welfare although it is widely abused. As far as the americans, yes I have to give them recognition for their unity as a whole and their pride as a nation.
Bryce Masuk
03-16-03, 01:44 PM
yes the free health care is great as well as welfare even if it is abused it still reduces crime to manageable level canada has its up and downs but so does everywhere else it could be much worse much much worse you cant expect everything from one place i guess that we have it soo good here that when anyone trys to do something small it gains my focus
jpaulson
03-16-03, 02:17 PM
Quote:
<< I wouldn't think a member on this forum would talk like that.>>
Sorry, but I was not aware of the proper protocol for speaking your mind. Could you please show me where is the list of what I CAN say so I can please everyone?
"Dude", I DID think really hard about what I said. You assumed that I meant "death to humans" and "biting and killing". Granted, those are slim chances, but they CAN happen. I was referring to the safety of the snake, and the reputation that we as herpers fight hard every day to uphold. A 12' burmese loose in NYC would cause chaos, and ultimately death to the snake. Can you imagine what would happen if someone reported a lost 12' burm in an apartment complex? There would be mass hysteria, and probably an insuing snake hunt. And thats IF the snake is reported. If that person has broken the law with that size reptile, do you think they would STILL pick up the phone and report it? So, what you have here is a threat to humans(yes, a bite could occur--what if it was an ARP?), a threat to small dogs and cats, and, of course, the threat to the snake as well.
I am amazed at how many people just jumped right in and suggested breaking the law!! This is the wrong way to improve reptile keepers reputations. Whether right or wrong, we must obey the laws. I am not saying they are all good laws, but they are laws, and those that violate them hurt the other responsible herpers out there. New legislation is being brought in every day, in cities all over the world--legislation to BAN reptiles from being kept as pets. By willfully violating these laws, you increase the odds of these extreme laws being passed.
Sorry to be a prick, I just had to let that out.
Burmies
03-16-03, 02:19 PM
We have the same kind of laws here in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. We can not have venomous snakes, Snakes over 2 feet at their adult size, no scorpions or spiders.
But just across the bridge which, is not that long at all, takes you into Halifax and they have no bi- laws like this.
I really can not understand it but thats the things are.
We keep bigger snakes anyway, we just do not tell the wrong people about it.
Burmies
savannah_babe
03-16-03, 02:54 PM
well..yes i agree. they make the laws, which are made to be followed. there are no laws in my state, (other than your basic laws). if these laws are broken, then they will probably end up trying to bad herps all together. if ya dont like the laws where ya are, then its probably a good idea to move. or just not keep them.
keeping herps is a privlidge, not a right, and if you violate it, then we loose our privlidges...
Bryce Masuk
03-16-03, 03:24 PM
its not a privledge no one has a right to say what you can and cant do unless it causes physical finacial or mental problems as long as you are not forcing anyone to go in to your home to look at your snakes they have no right to take them away where will the reptile keepers go WHEN THERE IS NO WHERE LEFT TO GO EVENTUALLY IT WILL SPREAD So we have a choice let them ban reptiles everywhere and eventually get rid of them Or stop this Bull before its too late I am not saying riot but if we start and organization that helps people fight this legally if every one puts in what cash they can spare these insane bylaws could hopefully be wiped out
jpaulson
03-16-03, 03:38 PM
No one has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do? It's not a priviledge? Having a drivers license is a priviledge..yet there are laws that govern that. I am sure that you purchase your car tag, your insurance, and get your license renewed when needed. Why? Because if you do not, you are violating the law, and you do not want that priviledge to be taken away. And, yes, they DO have that power. We, as a society, MUST have laws and regulations to keep order. The ones that BREAK these laws are going to be the reason why they ban reptiles all together.
I offer you one last thought to ponder---what if your neighbor has 20 venomous snakes? What if they get out? Again, we are pretending that there are no laws governing this, so there would be no law against keeping them, and no law licensing him to have them...bottom line, a complete idiot could have 20 ven's right next to you and your children, and you could do nothing, except maybe move. Still think that no one should tell us what we can and cannot do or keep?
Bryce Masuk
03-16-03, 03:57 PM
I wasnt saying there should be no licening system for venomas snakes or even large snakes there should be so people that dont know what there getting into dont end up in big trouble since a ball python is relitively harmless and so is a light bulb why is there or anti light bulb laws your only to have 2 15 watt light bulbs and run them for 2 hours since you could burn down your house a drivers licence is much different then having a couple of corn snakes in your home I do belive that there should be licences that people need to get for large and poisonous snakes you obviously didnt read this bit of my post "its not a privledge no one has a right to say what you can and cant do unless it causes physical finacial or mental problems" a person should need a licence to drive car because it can easily cause finacial physical or mental harm me owning a ball python and a jcp causes NONE of those 3 problems yet they would both be illegal if they put that bylaw in place where i live its bull and they dont have the right to do that
jpaulson
03-16-03, 04:11 PM
I will agree with that, Bryce. You did not really specify any particulars in your post, so I responded with the worst case scenario. All that I am saying is that a community must have laws in place to protect all involved. Although some are absurd, most are there for a viable reason.
Keep in mind, though, that you are a responsible herper, or for the sake of argument, I will assume that...I do not know you, so I cannot say for sure. BUT, you have to remember that for every responsible herper there is, there is an irresponsible herper harming this hobby. They are the ones that purchase these snakes, and do not realize the COST of food and husbandry. They are also the ones that think it is funny to "show off" their snakes, and that could lead to problems with your other two reasons.
We need to remember that for the most part, these laws are there to combat those "bad" keepers. Actually, they need these laws to protect them from themselves. Without them, the one that really suffers are the reptiles.
Agreed jpaulson, theres a big difference between rights and priviledges. Its our right to have the choice to eat in a non-smoking environment, not a priviledge to be able to eat a meal without choking on second hand smoke. However its not a right to own an animal, any animal, whether it be a mouse, a dog, or a 14 foot burm. By breaking the laws you are making people who are affraid of snakes even more affraid, because they no longer feel safe relying on the laws that are set forth to protect them
Los Ministrio
03-16-03, 04:15 PM
I can't believe that some of you are under the impression that a 15ft burm isn't a dangerous animal. It is. People have been killed by smaller ones. Granted, the odds of a 15 ft burm on the loose killing somebody are slim, but it's not inconceiveable. A 15 ft burm isn't equivalent to a steak knife, a burm can move around on its own and attack of its own will, it doesn't need to have a person to wield it. A steak knife on the loose would stay where it was and the worst it could do on its own would be to cut someone's foot, were they to step on it.
It's that kind of attitude towards giant pythons that gets laws like these made. Saying that a full grown burm isn't dangerous is just as stupid as saying people shouldn't be allowed to keep reptiles at all. An escaped burm is just as dangerous as a stray dog, sure it's unlikely that it will hurt anyone but that's not to say that it can't or never will. The reason for many cities' reptile by-laws is some event (like a death or escape) that was precipitated by bad husbandry procedures and ignorance on the part of the keeper. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that people give these animals the respect they deserve (as beautiful creatures AND as potentially dangerous animals).
tHeGiNo
03-16-03, 04:36 PM
Paul. what I meant was that I would think that people on this site have a love for snakes, and/or herps in general. I wouldn't think they would have the mindframe of a misinformed individual who believes snakes are out there to hurt us. However I now read what you just said, and somewhat understood what you meant, my apologies.
I think this is all about uniformed people making these herp laws that make no sense.
In Simons case, we have a very responsible individual (no I dont know him personally but look at his pics and read his posts, its easy to tell he is level headed) who keeps mostly small species of snakes. Someone made this law in London so no 15 foot burmese would get out and hurt someone. But because that person was uninformed they make the law include all snakes, including snakes over 2 feet.
This makes no sense. And frankly, if I have to break the law so be it. I am not going to allow a close minded, uninformed individual tell me what to do, and what I can't do. I just won't do it.
And if my corns get out and wreak somesort of havoc over Toronto, well the day that happens I will agree we should all follow the law. But it never will. In regards to burmese and such, this really has no place in this thread since Simon does not have any retics or burms to my knowledge. I could be wrong though. We are talking about small species, and mostly colubrids at that. Everyone keep your kids inside! Simons 4 foot Miami corns could get loose! *LOL*
Marisa
tHeGiNo
03-16-03, 04:54 PM
We, as a society, MUST have laws and regulations to keep order.
How is keeping a few snakes not keeping order? That is what I meant earlier, about me not thinking you would say this kind of thing. Keeping and breeding snakes is not a threat if you are responsible. As I said before, that is like saying you can't have pens. If I am responsible, I will not stab anyone with it and will keep order. If i am not responsible I will stab someone and wont keep order. Are you saying it is fine to ban pens because there is a potential for harm? I am saying that for boids or coloubrids, and such of the sort, banning these are ridiculous, no one mentioned venomous snakes.
BUT, you have to remember that for every responsible herper there is, there is an irresponsible herper harming this hobby. They are the ones that purchase these snakes, and do not realize the COST of food and husbandry.
Again, I am going to make the same argument. There are people who can keep knifes in the house responsibly. However there are also those who kill and stab people with them, shall we ban knifes now?
Now Los Ministro, I never said that a burm wasn't dangerous, but please listen to yourself. Your idea is that anything which poses a threat should be banned. Yes, there is a potential threat with large snakes, there is a potential threat with just about everything. Alright so I am going to open a town, I am going to ban ALL humans because they are not an inanimate object and CAN hurt someone because they have a mind of your own. Don't get me wrong, I do not feel any Tom, **** or Harry should be able to house a big snake, I am just saying that the thought that snakes are mean green killing machines are what makes these ridiculous laws in the first place, make it so that one must have a permit to own one don't just ban them all together. Dogs arent banned, and compare the amount of snake related injuries to the amount of dog related injuries, there is a big difference. The reason dogs aren't banned are because they do not have the reputation of "evil." All I am trying to say is the laws are unfair. Finally, why do we keep referring to burms. The laws made don't say you cannot have a burm, they say you cannot have snakes of a certain size or specie, TWO FEET IN THIS CASE! Please let me know the threat a corn snake or a garter snake poses against us, include a ball python and childrens python in there as boids are banned in a lot of places as well. Yes, they can bite, wow.
And if my corns get out and wreak somesort of havoc over Toronto, well the day that happens I will agree we should all follow the law. But it never will.
AMEN.
One day we will have to put air bags on pencil erasers because someone's bratty kid poked their eye.
The regulations will never end. What's unfortunate is that those of use who believe in most of the regulations are put off by the ones they WON'T STOP ADDING and the ones that are stupid and misinformed.
Marisa
Bryce Masuk
03-16-03, 05:05 PM
maybe canada needs a huge swarm of mice and rats to realize how much good snakes actually do too bad we dont have many types of snakes to eat em up
tHeGiNo
03-16-03, 05:10 PM
Give me ONE good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to have a corn snake in London, and I will shut up.
tHeGiNo
03-16-03, 05:11 PM
The problem is, nobody wants to do anything about the laws until they ban something in which they own, and love, how fair is it if someone has been collecting herps for the majority of their lives, then in a matter of minutes its all taken away from them.
jpaulson
03-16-03, 05:48 PM
I am going under the impression that the REASON they say 2 feet, is to PREVENT a large snake, be it a boid, a hot, or a python, from getting that large and causing FUTURE harm or fear. In most states, it is a violation to house your large snake in a window, that would be visible to the general public. OK, so now someone is telling me where I can and cannot house a snake in my OWN home? But, it is our responsibility as keepers to keep the public as calm as possible. Whether we like it or not, most people have a fear of snakes, or reptiles for that fact. Now, I could house my snakes in the front window, and basically say "screw the laws"...but, by doing that, I am now hurting EVERYONE'S priviledge, be it a small part, at keeping reptiles.
As far as the pen comment, no, we should not ban pens. I never said we should ban reptiles either. But, if enough people DO go out and start stabbing people with pens, do you not think that they would ban them? (For the record, stabbing someone with a pen is considered using a deadly weapon, should it kill.) I was saying that if people CONTINUE to violate the laws, then EVENTUALLY a permanent ban could go into place. Those that break these laws give these lobbyists more power behind them.
Marisa, I am sure you are well aware that many reptiles carry salmonella. Also, consider that ANY snake, be it a corn snake or a childrens python, is still a WILD ANIMAL and therefore, we will never be able to predict 100% what they will do. So, your corn snake, should it be aggressive and carry salmonella, could very easily wreak havoc on Toronto. Likelyhood, slim. Chances, slim. Reality, YES!!
True, regulations will never stop. But, that is also because some peoples' stupidity will never stop, either. Why must we put "non-edible" on septic pumping trucks? Why must we put "do not consume" on a container of rat poison? For God's sake, they are trying to sue McDonalds for causing someone's obesity!! That is insane!! But, the reality is that these laws and regulations are put in place because someone, somewhere, has tried to do these things. Truly unbelievable, yet they happen!! Regulations will not end, not because people are put off by the ones that keep adding them, but because of the select few idiots out there that continue to push the "bar".
Everyone keeps saying "I am resonsible, who has the right to tell ME how to keep my snakes?" My argument is not with any of you, it is towards the idiots that continuously break the simple, common sense rules, therefore forcing the lawmakers to make things strict.
If the "bad apples" continue to violate these laws, then it COULD lead to a complete ban. At that point, who are you going to blame? The lawmakers for attempting to make things safer, or the bad apples that forced them into making that ban?
FYI, Gino, certain dogs ARE banned in certain cities. Remember someone making a comment about "anti-pitbull" regulations? And why do you suppose that this happened? Because a select few thought it would be cute to train thier dog to attack. People DIED!! Kids have DIED!! So how many people have to die or get injured before people take these laws seriously?
In many areas, a busy intersection will only get a traffic light when a certain number of deaths have occured there. Most people are good drivers--but there are obviously a few "bad apples" that caused those deaths.
O.k. I get your point. The idiots who break the laws are pushing the bar for the rest of us.
But when does it become THE IDIOTS who MAKE the laws need to stop? Just because the law is made is it right?
No.
And frankly, unless my cornsnake got loose in toronto and someone ate his feces, no havoc could be brought. And I am sorry but lots of local animals also carry nasty things. I guess we should go out and get rid of them because of that one stupid person who is going to ingest their fecees. ????
That makes no sense.
If the laws make no sense, and the people making them constantly refuse to listen, I am supposed to sit back and say "well they are the lawmakers!" Wrong. I will not.
And if it means breaking a law that makes no sense in the first place, so be it.
And yes the laws are there to prevent larger snakes. But if the person making the law was informed, it could instead state "No snakes allowed whos adult size can surpass 8ft" or some such. But because they can't and won't make this simple change I am supposed to get rid of my snakes to protect the stupid people who have burms and retics? I am supposed to get rid of my snakes because the person who made the law didn't word it in a more informed manner?
Yeah, right. Sorry I just don't understand the logic of following laws that clearly make no factual sense because 1 out of 20 people might be a total idiot, and because the lawmaker knew nothing about what they were doing.
Marisa
Look the bottom line is I understand your points, and they are valid.
But I am not giving up something I enjoy because someone else is afriad of it. Period. If it means keeping them in secret, ok.
But I do get what you are saying.
I just strongly believe that if what *I* am doing is not bothering anyone, hurting anyone or killing anyone, then I am doing it. Period.
Marisa
tHeGiNo
03-16-03, 06:28 PM
Alright, now I have nothing to argue as everything you said is very true. However you said if people continuously stabbed people with pens, they would ban it. I haven't heard of many snakes bites, never mind deaths, so that logic would not apply to this. However you made very valid points. Yes, it is very unfortunate that the irrisponsible have to ruin it for us all.
(For the record, stabbing someone with a pen is considered using a deadly weapon, should it kill.)
Exactly, as is if your dog kills someone, you go to jail for murder. That is what they should do, dont ban them all together, require permits such as guns. As far as the pen statement, howmany people have been shot and killed yet they still allow guns with permits. Again, very valid points. I understand you fully now. One more thing, chicken and many other things carry samonella, they aren't banned. Please note I am not arguing against you, as you are stating facts, that is all I am doing as well. The thing is, all the statements you say about snakes are true, and that IS the reason they ban snakes. The thing is, SNAKES ARENT THE ONLY ONES WHO POSE THESE GIVEN THREATS. That is what angers me, the real reason behind the law is that they see no importance or need for snakes, the reasons you give, which they use, are a bunch of crap they use as an excuse.
One more thing, chicken and many other things carry samonella, they aren't banned.
Chickens and other farm animals are prohibited to be kept in residential areas. Unless you live on a farm or something, you cant keep them, especially if you live in a condo or appartment building downtown someplace
jpaulson
03-16-03, 07:26 PM
Marissa, in my opinion, just about ALL the general public, including the lawmakers, are clueless as to the proper and resonsible care of reptiles. We can educate all we can, but this is a battle that began with Adam, and will continue well into the future. I realized this problem when I got into reptiles, and knowingly chose to accept it. So the obvious question we should now ask is how do we change it? How do we change thier thinking? How do we convince them that reptiles mean to us what dogs and cats mean to them? I'm not sure I have the correct answer, but I can tell you what is NOT the answer--having a handful of jerks out there abusing thier priviledge of ownership of these magnificant creatures. That, in turn, leads to more fear, more mis-conceptions, and more ignorance. You can't blame the lawmakers for all of this, and I know you are not. Keep in mind, though, that the lawmakers answer to the general public. If most of the general public is scared to death of snakes, how popular will that lawmaker be at next elections? Not saying it is right, but it is valid. Lemme give you an example, one that you touched on earlier. I am a smoker, yet 75% of americans do not smoke. Sure, I feel shunted at times, but I accept it. For one, it is a hazard to others, and I respect and agree with that. Do I blame the lawmakers for banning smoking in just about every public place now? No, because I realize that it is all a numbers game, and I am at the short end. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to compare apples to apples with snakes. There is a difference. My point is, they have to answer to the majority. In a democracy, the majority wins.
Gino, very valid points you are making as well, and I commend and respect that. I DO understand your points as well. At some point, people just gotta stop and use a little common sense.
Thank you, guys, for your opinions and comments. I guess at some point people just need to agree to disagree.
Herp guy
03-16-03, 07:26 PM
In the news you never hear "man is bitten by snake ,calls 911" or "man acccisentally eats snake feces, gets salmonelle , he died 9:30 yesterday
tHeGiNo
03-16-03, 07:40 PM
Yes exactly, very good point and comparison. However, fear of something that should not be feared is no reason to ban something, that would be like banning a scary movie lol however I realize there IS a potential, a slim one in most cases, for injury caused by a snake. And the smoking thing, THAT is a fair law as it definitely causes harm to the general public. Your allowed to smoke whenever and whereever in your own home, why can't it be the same with snakes. Again, I realize they can escape, all I am saying is the laws are not fair, and there is no reason for the majority of them. Toronto is very fair, with a limit of three metres. I still think if you wanted to hold something bigger, you should be allowed as long as you have a permit and have anti-escape for the large guys.
tHeGiNo
03-16-03, 07:40 PM
And Kathy, It doesn't necessarily have to be live to carry samonella.
jpaulson
03-16-03, 08:09 PM
Herp guy, If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound? Just because you never hear it, does not mean that it didn't happen or that it could not happen.
And Gino, smoking is socially acceptable--unfortunately, having reptiles as pets is not. Sad, but true.
jpaulson
03-16-03, 08:38 PM
Marissa,
Just an FYI, although rare, salmonella can be passed through other methods besides the consumption of feces. If a reptile has salmonella and defecates, then it can be transmitted through a variety of ways. If the infected feces touches the reptile, and someone handles the reptile, it can be transmitted that way. Also, it can be found in the enclosure itself, as that is where the animal usually defecates. Proper handwashing after handling any reptile is necessary. And just another good reason to throughly clean and disinfect a cage after the animal defecates.
I obviously know that. I was speaking of it in context of someones snake getting loose and infecting someone with salmonella. I am well aware of how it is transmitted as I have an iguana as well.
So the cage factor doesn't matter in this discussion as how would a loose snakes cage in my home hurt the public? It wouldn't. And unless a person was someone infected by a loose reptiles feces however that could happen, a cornsnake in toronto can't really be a cause to ban all snakes over 2 feet.
Thanks goodness Toronto in fact has SENSIBLE laws which only outlaw the species which reach a dangerous length.
Marisa
jpaulson
03-17-03, 07:28 AM
Agreed, Marissa. My apologizes if I offended you. I figured you knew that, just didn't know how to word it.
Originally posted by Kathy
Chickens and other farm animals are prohibited to be kept in residential areas. Unless you live on a farm or something, you cant keep them, especially if you live in a condo or appartment building downtown someplace
Dogs and cats also carry salmonella, and they are not banned.
This entire thread is WHY you have this extreme law on your books. The only way to get the law changed, and YES it can be changed. Is to get an INTELLIGENT organized group, with the proper public respect to propose something. As jpaulson has said, unfortunatly reptiles have an extremely bad rap across the world. Going on rants on this site does not help that idea.
With the original post I feel for Simon that really sucks. What needs to be done is to organize. Get your Herp Society, vets, Zoo curators, a good polatician involved, and the dreded lawyer, to get together and write up a responsible proposal to submit to the lawmakers. Include the EXACT details, not just a general idea. Also provide how the program should be funded(This is the most important detail)
Getting into arguement on here is pure stupidity. Laws are needed. If you have to verify that your keeping your pets responsibly in order to keep them. That should be no issue, because you should be keeping them that way in the first place.The government looks at all the people as children. As you probably do with your kids, when they show they can handle more responsability, you give them more privledges.
Our herp society is going through this at this very moment to re-write the herp laws for the state of Illinois. This is not a quick process, but if you care at all for your animals you should organize and get this started.
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