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reptilesalonica
03-08-03, 10:07 PM
I want to get an arboreal. I keep Herps for 7 years, beyond that i study them a lot, i have a difficult "Hot" (Agkistrodon bilineatus taylori). Let's say that i have some good experience. Experience don't go always with the years that someone's herping, i know, but i do know that i can "read" good every snake and to set myself in the right position to decrese the chance of a pottential bite. Which of the following is more easy to work with, less to bite (when you be careful how to touch - of course): Green tree? Amazon basin? Emerald tree? Amazon tree? any other that i didn't mension?
Thanks in advance ~ Greg ~

Kyle Walkinshaw
03-09-03, 12:09 AM
The easiest would be the Amazon Tree Boas, that stay a much more managable size, and probably easiest to be able to handle.

LdyDrgn
03-09-03, 01:01 AM
Green Tree pythons and Emerald Tree boas are mainly 'look, don't touch' snakes. They stress easily and require much more specialized care. I would also recommend an Amazon Tree boa. :)

dead bob
03-09-03, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by Kyle Walkinshaw
The easiest would be the Amazon Tree Boas, that stay a much more managable size, and probably easiest to be able to handle.

I wish someone would tell my 1.0 adult ATB that. Haven't been tagged by him yet but it's not for lack of effort on his part...lol

CraigC
03-09-03, 07:32 AM
Greg,
When I first decided to get into arboreals, I was only interested in ETB's. That was in '98 and still holds true today. Over the years I have read many folks advice to new arboreal enthusiasts about starting with an atb. Although I have never owned one, I have seen pictures of and listened to the stories of folks getting bitten.
I think that atb's are the most prone to stress of the three species in which you have shown interest. I think that the primary reason folks suggest starting with them is the relative "low cost" and a loss would not be such a financial impact.
To me loosing an animal, no matter the cost, due to the lack of good, basic husbandtry is criminal. You can look in almost every arboreals forum and find someone looking for help because they can't maintain proper temps or humidity. Why the h### are they dealing with this AFTER they already have the animal? Sorry, I just get upset when I read about someone putting the cart before the horse.:( :( :(

I have yet to aquire an ETB, WC or CBB, that has not calmed down to a point where they can be handled. I also fully believe that if you have the proper set-up and background knowledge prior to acquiring the snake, there is absolutely no reason not to start with an ETB or GTP. CBB is by far the best way to go. This has just been my experience with Emeralds.
CraigC

reptilesalonica
03-09-03, 11:59 AM
I think...i will agree with CraigC. I always wanted to have an emerald. Then i saw Amazons and my heart skirted, but when i searched it more, i learn that Amazons indeed sressed very much even with the right conditions. Also they don't think twice before they bite. Amazons are cheeper but if i take them and lost them from stress then i believe it's useless. Although i accept any other oppinion. I am not close to anything when it has to do with herps.

Emeralds
03-09-03, 12:20 PM
Hi Greg:

Always happy to hear about another person becoming interested in what for me has been a life long obsession. I agree 100% with everything said by Craig, he's a veteran of the "art" and knows from 1st hand experience. I would like to add a couple of my own ideas for what it's worth.

My first thought is about the concern over being bitten.

Unlike with "hots", getting bitten should be of very little concern. In fact, if it is of serious concern, you may be well advised to stay away from the entire Corallus family of boas and most of the python species as well.

Reptiles are reactive creatures which respond predictably to very specific stimuli. One of the things they react most predictably to is handler/keeper stress. During periods of increased stress, mammals emit chemical evidence of increased hormone levels, accelerated heart and respiration rates, increased perspiration and a rise in surface body temperature. This mammalian “fight or flight” response mechanism has over the course of evolution become one of the triggering keys found in many species of snakes. Eat or be eaten is the law of nature, and the reptile brain (which does NO high math) reacts to the stimuli it’s programmed to pickup. Over time, individual animals may become desensitized to certain stimuli and threat responses may diminish. However, the potential to trigger an attack is always present, and EVERY “handling keeper” WILL at one time or another, trigger it. If you are going to free handle, you are going to get tagged. Knowing this ahead of time, accepting it and moving on will go a long way to preventing it. I’ve been tagged many times, most bites are not memorable, but a few have been. In every instance however it’s NEVER been the animals fault, and I’m still here, with all my parts in pretty good working order, so I have no complaints.

The second thought is about handling. Although I don’t prescribe to the “look don’t touch” doctrine proposed by many keepers, my experience with the different species of arboreal boids and their relative demeanors has taught me that handling is something that should be done sparingly. I want my animals to be as stress free as possible, but at the same time, I wish to be able to enjoy them, and work with them freely without the constant anxiety of knowing that at any moment I may be under fire. For me it’s a balancing act. I have no animals that I can not freely handle, but I certainly respect them all, consider their nocturnal, arboreal natures and do as little as possible to stress them out. Having said this, what follows is my evaluation of each of the species.

<li> I have NO experience with Scrubs, but assume from my reading that as a species they are generally wary, a bit high-strung, aggressive and probably not good candidates for handling.
<li> The Hortulanus group (ATB, CTB, TTB) are by far the most naturally aggressive and irascible. As a rule, they are not a good candidate for a touchy feely keeper either. However, these are the hardiest of the Corallus family of animals, and make good entry level animals for husbandry training because of this more forgiving constitution.
<li> Annulated Tree Boas are generally much less aggressive than Hortulanids but share the wider range of environmental tolerance.
<li> Northern Emeralds are in general more tolerant of handling than the Hortulanids but are by no means fans of handling. Virtually all can be easily acclimated to the handling necessary for maintenance, and most become accustomed to infrequent recreational handling by confident knowledgeable individuals.
<li> Basins Emeralds are in general the least high-strung and most handler tolerant of the entire Corallus group, but both Emerald races require strict adherence to rigid husbandry practices.
<li> Chondro pythons due to the nature and fragility of the young are more difficult to desensitize to handling. Certain races are much less naturally aggressive than others. For an animal that offers the least stressful and most enjoyable handling experience, the Aru race is generally accepted as being the most docile. While none of the neonates should ever be handled (or at the least very, very sparingly), Arus offer the likeliest chance of acquiring young sub-adult animals that will not respond aggressively towards being handled.
<li> Indo Tree Boas are again a species about which I have no 1st hand knowledge, but my understanding is that they tend to be less aggressive than Hortulanids, but more so than Basin Emeralds. Their husbandry is a complete blank to me, as I have never researched it.
<li> Madagascar Tree Boas are the “Bullet Proof” members of the tree boa clans. Their husbandry involves a greater range of tolerances, and although much less arboreal in nature than the other species, they still qualify as highly arboreal. My limited exposure to them has been to individuals that are calm and easy going, yet aggressively easy feeders so they too would seem to me to make a good entry level arboreal, although not a good teaching/learning tool for husbandry skills where the other species are concerned.

Well… that’s about it… looks like I’ve written another “BOOK” here… hope you weren’t too bored. Good luck and happy herping…

Joe P.
<a href=http://www.emeraldtreeboa.org>DGS - The Emerald Tree Boa Organization </a>

reptilesalonica
03-09-03, 12:48 PM
You must be kidding my friend. You have wrote a few! :) What ever has to do with herps keeps me stucked on them. I am 4 days old on this community and i made 56 posts. If i get bored i would go to play golf:) Anyway, you seem to have a good experience on arboreals (like CraigC) and i will mention now (i forgot on my previous post) about the Basin Emeralds, that i do believe that is the much tamer among strictly arboreal snakes. I agree about the balance of handle-stress. Such rainforest animals are easily stressed but on the other hand i'll take them because i love them, therefore i want to handle them sparingly. I can read good the snakes mood and i believe that these snakes whenever they don't rest coiled they always have the "S" - ready to strike posture. Well, with a few bites it will learn that cannot help it's condition from "this strange warm tree that do not fear of it's huge teeths" :) Take care my ...arboreal friend

suticat
03-13-03, 04:24 PM
Greg,
Read your mail. You will find it very interesting reading.

http://216.40.249.192/s/otn/puke/repuke.gif

LdyDrgn
03-13-03, 08:04 PM
We have both ATB's and an ETB here. The ETB seems to have a regurge problem when handled (and this is several days after feeding). As long as he is left alone, he's fine. When an ETB bites, it's fast and it's hard. You won't know you've been bitten until he's done it about 5 times....

The ATB's don't seem to know what regurge is. I can handle them 3 days after feeding with no problems at all. In my experience, they don't stress nearly as easily. Many people who lose their ATB's do so from improper husbandry or because they have gotten a WC animal loaded with parasites. ATB's are not that difficult to care for. Tall, clear, Rubbermaid tote, cypress mulch for substrate, human heat pad set to medium under the tote, stuff to climb on and a water dish. Once a week remove the snakes, stir up the mulch and pour some hot water over it. Ta-daaa instant humidity that lasts another week. ATB's also are predictable. They will pull back into that famous double-S and when they strike, it is very slow and easily avoidable.

I don't have this problem with my ATB's, tho. They are tame :D It's funny to watch people take many steps away from me when I pull them out and then watch the horror on their faces as the snakes crawl all over MY face, LMAO

CraigC
03-14-03, 06:37 AM
Hopefully the handling is the cause of the regurg and it isn't a cronic problem. If the animal is showing signs of a "razor" back and the fat reserves on the head begin to disappear then you may have a serious problem on your hands. Hopefully you allow at least 2 weeks after a regurg before feeding again.
CraigC

LdyDrgn
03-14-03, 03:25 PM
MacDuff is on a 3 week feeding schedule. He just shed for us too, all one piece :) You saw the pics of him in Morti's thread ;) (I live with Morti, Craig, LOL)

reptilesalonica
03-14-03, 04:45 PM
regurgitation problems needs cautious steps. Not handling at all for about 1 month. After snake's puke wait 15 days or more before feed it again. If the snake is already thin, try to feed it liquid smashed mouse with a syringe. I have lost a beautiful baby Bci this way.

LdyDrgn
03-14-03, 05:51 PM
Reptilesalonica: Our ETB is quite healthy, not underweight. We prefer to not push the envelope and see how much he can be handled (he IS WC after all). I have seen tame ETB's that don't mind handling, and they are all on a 3 week schedule, too. You must have taken my posts the wrong way.... we aren't having a problem with him regurging on a regular basis. He's only regurged once or twice that I know of since Morti got him at the Daytona show back in August, 2002. So we leave him alone for the most part. It is much preferable to have a healthy snake we don't handle than a stressed out and sick snake because we 'just have to' play with him.

CraigC
03-14-03, 07:49 PM
I didn't mean any disrespect! I'm only concerned because we have lost WC animals, that seemed perfect, after 1-1/2 years to the latent effects of ERS.
CraigC

LdyDrgn
03-14-03, 09:29 PM
No problem Craig ;)

I hope to meet you this year at Daytona. We will be attempting to be there.