Hello From A Python Nerd!

[GhostEchoes]

Hello everyone!

My name is Bekah but I go by GhostEchoes on Social. I have been keeping reptiles for about 3 years now consistently, but I fell in love with them when my parents got me my first Leopard Gecko when I was 12. Back then I wasn’t allowed to have snakes (stupid societal fears) but now that I’m on my own I have started dipping my toes into the world of snakes and dont want to go back. My hopes are to become a hobbyist ball python breeder, with the help of my wife who has been around snakes since she was a kid and shared her room with an 18 foot Burmese Python growing up.

Enough about me, let me introduce you to the kids!

Hubble is my late ‘18 hatchling normal male ball python. I got him as a little guy, and he’s now pudged up and is easily pushing 450 grams. He is a sweet, sweet boy and enjoys laying under his log and watching everything go by outside his enclosure.

Oberon is my mid ‘17 hatchling pied male ball python who is our newest acquisition. He’s around 800 grams, about 60% white and is so far one of the nicest and most docile snakes I’ve ever met. He’s been a dream for my wife since she was young, and when we saw him at our local reptile shop we couldn’t say no.

Salazar is my ‘14 or ‘15 hatchling amelanistic male Corn Snake, and is by far my problem child. I am his fourth home in just 4-5 years of life and I’m not sure if it’s because people just got tired of caring for him, or if it’s because he’s nippy. Like, really nippy. Some times I think he read the species description of a cobra instead of a Corn Snake, because there’s nothing docile about him.

Last but not least is Perry. She’s an early ‘17 hatchling amelanistic Leopard Gecko. She was purchased from a local PetSmart (yes, yes I know) but she just had this magical little personality about her. She is the most full of personality, funny and entertaining little gecko that I’ve ever met.

Hopefully y’all stuck through all that! Thanks for having me, and I look forward to learning more and hanging out here on the forum.

[EL Ziggy]

Welcome aboard Bekah. Sounds like you have some cool critters.

[GhostEchoes]

Thank you! Glad to be here.

[ClockwerkBonnet]

Welcome to the forum!

[craigafrechette]

Welcome to the forum!!

Just something to think about....
Right now there are 16,359 ball pythons for sale on morphmarket alone. That's just ONE platform and over SIXTEEN THOUSAND animals looking for homes. My point is...the BP market is already extremely over saturated. Might be worth reconsidering your plan to breed BPs.

[Aaron_S]

Welcome to the forum!!

Just something to think about....
Right now there are 16,359 ball pythons for sale on morphmarket alone. That's just ONE platform and over SIXTEEN THOUSAND animals looking for homes. My point is...the BP market is already extremely over saturated. Might be worth reconsidering your plan to breed BPs.

At one point probably 250,000 balls were imported from Africa per year. There's probably about that being produced in captivity. If there's only roughly 30,000 listed for sale that means there's about 220,000 who have found homes just fine. I'm confident it isn't as saturated as you think it is.

My numbers come from talking to breeders who imported said babies. The 30,000 is being generous that the ones listed on morphmarket and other platforms aren't all duplicates. Which a lot are cross posted.

The problem we see, or rather don't see, is that the pet level of keepers for ball pythons is HUGE. So many people keep ball pythons as pets and never join the online reptile community at large. So many. The wholesalers who buy up captive babies can't get enough of them from my friend who produces about 200+ clutches a year. He sells out all the time.

Actually, the problem is the high end level. Pet level sells fine, the high end level is where animals sit for longer periods of time.

[craigafrechette]

At one point probably 250,000 balls were imported from Africa per year. There's probably about that being produced in captivity. If there's only roughly 30,000 listed for sale that means there's about 220,000 who have found homes just fine. I'm confident it isn't as saturated as you think it is.

My numbers come from talking to breeders who imported said babies. The 30,000 is being generous that the ones listed on morphmarket and other platforms aren't all duplicates. Which a lot are cross posted.

The problem we see, or rather don't see, is that the pet level of keepers for ball pythons is HUGE. So many people keep ball pythons as pets and never join the online reptile community at large. So many. The wholesalers who buy up captive babies can't get enough of them from my friend who produces about 200+ clutches a year. He sells out all the time.

Actually, the problem is the high end level. Pet level sells fine, the high end level is where animals sit for longer periods of time.

Hmmmmm... interesting.
I just find it so odd how many people get into snakes and want to dive into breeding. You don't see people doing that with kittens, puppies, hamsters, fish, etc...
I just don't get it. And I think some people see the price tags on some animals and think they can make good money by pairing up their animals. Like "whoa, if I pair my pied I can make 10 pieds and sell them all for $400!!!

If I had the desire and startup capital I would consider getting into breeding something less common in the hobby but trending upwards like Bloods/STPs or Hogg Island or Dum boas or Bredli pythons.

It just seems silly to me to dive into something so many other people are already doing. I purposely didn't include the numbers on fauna or Kingsnake because I know a lot are duplicates that are on MM as well.
I've also spoken to a handful of breeders who say that if they didn't start breeding BPs years ago they definitely wouldn't now due to oversaturation. I actually know a few venturing into breeding other species for that same reason.

But I suppose you're right, there are obviously plenty finding homes.

[Aaron_S]

Hmmmmm... interesting.
I just find it so odd how many people get into snakes and want to dive into breeding. You don't see people doing that with kittens, puppies, hamsters, fish, etc...
I just don't get it. And I think some people see the price tags on some animals and think they can make good money by pairing up their animals. Like "whoa, if I pair my pied I can make 10 pieds and sell them all for $400!!!

If I had the desire and startup capital I would consider getting into breeding something less common in the hobby but trending upwards like Bloods/STPs or Hogg Island or Dum boas or Bredli pythons.

It just seems silly to me to dive into something so many other people are already doing. I purposely didn't include the numbers on fauna or Kingsnake because I know a lot are duplicates that are on MM as well.
I've also spoken to a handful of breeders who say that if they didn't start breeding BPs years ago they definitely wouldn't now due to oversaturation. I actually know a few venturing into breeding other species for that same reason.

But I suppose you're right, there are obviously plenty finding homes.


You have a valid observation. Plenty of people own a snake or two then want to breed them. To be fair, most never get around it. I think people should raise a couple snakes first and then decide if they want to breed but saturation isn't really the reason to exactly not to. Anyone saying they wouldn't do it now is because they have a harder time selling animals and have to put work into it. However, I have a friend who keeps most animals and breeds for pet quality makes about $13,000 at a good reptile show in a single day. Pet level animals make a lot.

Secondary, you're also right about people going into other species. It's coming around in the cycle where colubrids and other species are being picked up.

Good news is with the advent of the internet getting different species and being able to get info on caring for them is helping the hobby flourish with new passions and new established collections.

[craigafrechette]

You definitely raise good points. And I definitely agree that most who talk about wanting to breed never actually do. And yes, I definitely feel that people need to raise at least a few snakes from hatchling/neonate through adulthood before considering breeding. I think more than one species would be smart too, that way you can choose which you're passionate about and want to work with.

It is refreshing to see other species on the uprise in the hobby too. So may amazing animals out there it's good to see more than just balls and redtails and corns. The last few expos I hit were still probably 75% balls, but getting better.
Don't get me wrong, I love BPs, I have two. But it's kinda like pizza, you can only reinvent it so many times. No matter how many toppings or sauces you experiment with, it's still pizza. I'd get pretty bored with pizza every day, hahahhahaha.

Anyway, that's why I love forums like this. We can have conversations with mixed views and still be friendly peers. There's obviously no one right answer in our hobby.

[GhostEchoes]

Thank you for the welcomes! My only interest in breeding is personal and not commercial. I would never become a big commercial breeder, as I want to be sure that each of my snakes is cared for well in terrariums and not stuck in tubs and stuff. Not saying people who keep them in tubs is wrong, I just want to give my kids enrichment.

[Aaron_S]

You definitely raise good points. And I definitely agree that most who talk about wanting to breed never actually do. And yes, I definitely feel that people need to raise at least a few snakes from hatchling/neonate through adulthood before considering breeding. I think more than one species would be smart too, that way you can choose which you're passionate about and want to work with.

It is refreshing to see other species on the uprise in the hobby too. So may amazing animals out there it's good to see more than just balls and redtails and corns. The last few expos I hit were still probably 75% balls, but getting better.
Don't get me wrong, I love BPs, I have two. But it's kinda like pizza, you can only reinvent it so many times. No matter how many toppings or sauces you experiment with, it's still pizza. I'd get pretty bored with pizza every day, hahahhahaha.

Anyway, that's why I love forums like this. We can have conversations with mixed views and still be friendly peers. There's obviously no one right answer in our hobby.

I agree with a lot of what you say. I have a friend who just got his first snake. He got a boa and he loves it. He wants to get a MBK and a python and after raising them see which species he likes most to possibly breed. I like his approach.

I get shows having a lot of beginner animals but here in Canada that's most of the buyers. Rare species buyers is generally an online marketplace. My guess is because theres a smaller amount of people who want odd species/can afford them so online catches the larger market?

[craigafrechette]

I agree with a lot of what you say. I have a friend who just got his first snake. He got a boa and he loves it. He wants to get a MBK and a python and after raising them see which species he likes most to possibly breed. I like his approach.

I get shows having a lot of beginner animals but here in Canada that's most of the buyers. Rare species buyers is generally an online marketplace. My guess is because theres a smaller amount of people who want odd species/can afford them so online catches the larger market?

Very good point about the expos. It makes sense to populate the expos with entry level species and lower priced animals. It makes sense for breeders/vendors to cater to the demographic.

I started out in this hobby almost 20 years ago, and I'd be lying if I said I've never thought about breeding. But for me personally I'd prefer to keep more species and learn more about them. Right now I have 6 different species and enjoy them all for different reasons. Maybe someday I'll find a species that just "grabs me" to the point of actually considering breeding, but only time will tell.

I just hate seeing how often "collection sales" come up. It's almost like people treat them like a fad ,like Pokemon or something. Gotta collect em all...til they get bored...

But obviously my approach is mine and not necessarily right or wrong, nor are others approaches wrong because they differ from mine.

[Aaron_S]

Very good point about the expos. It makes sense to populate the expos with entry level species and lower priced animals. It makes sense for breeders/vendors to cater to the demographic.

I started out in this hobby almost 20 years ago, and I'd be lying if I said I've never thought about breeding. But for me personally I'd prefer to keep more species and learn more about them. Right now I have 6 different species and enjoy them all for different reasons. Maybe someday I'll find a species that just "grabs me" to the point of actually considering breeding, but only time will tell.

I just hate seeing how often "collection sales" come up. It's almost like people treat them like a fad ,like Pokemon or something. Gotta collect em all...til they get bored...

But obviously my approach is mine and not necessarily right or wrong, nor are others approaches wrong because they differ from mine.

You make great points once again. I absolutely appreciate keepers like you. You may really get to know a species and it's super cool. I sometimes envy keepers like you. It's a different but also cool way of doing things.

I don't really like collection sales and I discuss with my friends on breeding and what to do. Right now we are working on different species. I have some ringed pythons coming that should breed within the next 18 months so that will be cool.

[Aaron_S]

Thank you for the welcomes! My only interest in breeding is personal and not commercial. I would never become a big commercial breeder, as I want to be sure that each of my snakes is cared for well in terrariums and not stuck in tubs and stuff. Not saying people who keep them in tubs is wrong, I just want to give my kids enrichment.

It's cool to keep it low key like that too. Breed the way you want to breed.

[craigafrechette]

You make great points once again. I absolutely appreciate keepers like you. You may really get to know a species and it's super cool. I sometimes envy keepers like you. It's a different but also cool way of doing things.

I don't really like collection sales and I discuss with my friends on breeding and what to do. Right now we are working on different species. I have some ringed pythons coming that should breed within the next 18 months so that will be cool.

Hahahaha, thanks. It works for me and my animals. I definitely enjoy comparing and contrasting different species. It helps keep things exciting.
I've had conversations with various people discussing personal limitations and how many snakes is "too many". And one I often hear repeated is "it's too many when it goes from a fun hobby to a chore". That always rang true with me. A year or two ago I said 6 would be my limit. Now I'm at 7 with plans to add a few more within the next few years. One of the reasons I feel like I can manage 10-12 snakes and still enjoy them is the diversity in my collection. I feel like it helps me appreciate them more for their differences.

But again, that works for me. It may differ from others but that's ok. It doesn't make any of us right or wrong.

Ringed pythons seem really cool. I know very little about them, but they seem like a fun species. And I'm sure you can guess...I'm all for seeing less common species in the hobby. That'll be a fun project I'm sure. Please keep us updated when there is noteworthy news on them. Good luck with that project!!



OP, sorry for derailing the thread. I do think it's been a good conversation though.
Also, OP, this was on no way meant to be a dig or a deterrent for you. I'm just passionate about these amazing animals. I do try to caution new keepers to take it slow. It's easy to get "hooked" on these creatures, but it seems it's just as easy to burn out. I feel like if I had a dollar for every time I saw a person go from 1 snake to multiple snakes in a short time and then end up unloading all or most of them I'd be able to buy an AP T12 for my new Bredli girl. It breaks my heart because these are living creatures, not trading cards or beanie babies.
Please know I'm not saying you'll be one of those who burn out, I'm just saying I see it much more often than I wish I did.
I truly wish you all the best with your snakes!!

Thanks for understanding.