View Full Version : Jungle Carpet Python: Transitioning From Live To Frozen/Thawed
Hello everyone, new guy here. I looked through the posts to see if there was anything the same as what I'm talking about here but couldn't find anything readily available. This is a bit of a long post so I hope I don't bore anyone:
I have a 10-month old female Jungle Carpet Python who I love more than life named Medusa. I got her when she was about half a year old from a very reputable breeder who continues to help me through what has been a difficult time getting her to start feeding on frozen/thawed.
When I first got her on 1/29/2019, she did indeed eat 3 F/T pinkies but since then she's only been interested in live. She had a perfect shed mid-March but then a bit of a flaky shed on 4/17 because I wasn't keeping her enclosure humid enough. (This has since been rectified.) Since this shed, she has not eaten because I really want to get her feeding on F/T. I closely monitor her every feeding but feeding live is just too problematic and dangerous. There haven't been any real problems but I don't want to wait until something happens.
She's only about 1.75' long so I've been feeding her in a blue plastic bin about 15"L x 11"W x 6"H. She has fed fine on live hoppers in there many times but all she seems to do with F/T hoppers is what I call "dumb striking" by which mean strikes seemingly not intended to kill but rather to back away the offending party, in this case the F/T hopper.
Actually, she will occasionally strike and begin to constrict the F/T hopper but then she immediately lets go. It's like she can tell the mouse is dead so she immediately loses interest. I've had 2 Royal Pythons and 1 Jungle Carpet before and all 3 of them ate F/T without problem so I do have some experience doing this.
I've tried 2 approaches with thawing the hoppers: the one with the mouse in a Ziploc in warm water and the other very gradually defrosting with a heat lamp. I'm very careful not to burn the mouse with either technique. The guy that I learned the heat-lamp technique from (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSX79DpN2b8) did the defrosting in the same room as the snakes and his pythons were clamoring to get out and feed. I did the same thing but Medusa remained unaroused.
I've heard of a 3rd technique where you just keep presenting the snake with F/T prey and eventually she'll get so hungry that she'll feed, but this seems a bit dangerous to me. Does this work or will the snake just starve herself to death?
The breeder who sold this gorgeous lady to me says that I need to try feeding her in her enclosure but I've heard over and over again from other snake experts that this is the last thing you want to do. They say she'll get used to a foreign entity in her enclosure and the next time I reach my hand in there, she'll bite. Obviously, I'm not concerned about a bite from a juvenile python but when she gets to be an adult, I'm sure she'll have no problem drawing some considerable blood.
Last thing -- and again I apologize for how long this is but I wanted to be detailed so as to head off any questions from the start -- she has a fairly sizeable glass enclosure: 3'L x 1.5'W x 3'H. And she never goes in her little black plastic hide, which is 9"L x 6"W x 3"H at the bottom of the enclosure. She's always up coiled around one of the many branches that reach up to the very top. Hence, she's quite the arboreal little serpent.
I think that's finally about it. Sorry this was so long, but like I said, I didn't want to make readers feel like they needed more details from me. I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting as it is, but I wanted to write down everything I knew. As previously stated, I had a Jungle Carpet before her and she was healthy for about 4 years but then got sick after I had to transition her to a smaller enclosure mid-move. I think I kept her area too humid and she got a mouth infection which spread. My vet insists her death wasn't my fault but I feel sure that it was.
She died 11 months ago and I still cry about it. Hence, as you can imagine, I've promised myself I absolutely cannot let anything happen to this new little girl I've got. She -- along with my German Shepherd puppy -- is my life.
To futher illustrate the situation, here's a video of the last feeding I attempted 2 nights ago on 5/5/2019. I'm sorry it's not very clear but what she does there is constrict and then immediately release: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KQdgjwnfUXNGzULAFLoe3TzDNqLZkYoz
Veronica
05-08-19, 07:22 PM
Have you tried feeding her inside her enclosure? I don't know if that would help, but it wouldn't hurt to give it a try. You could also try dragging slowly on the surface of her enclosure or feeding tub instead of dangling. (Again idk if that would do anything)
The breeder who sold this gorgeous lady to me says that I need to try feeding her in her enclosure but I've heard over and over again from other snake experts that this is the last thing you want to do. They say she'll get used to a foreign entity in her enclosure and the next time I reach my hand in there, she'll bite. Obviously, I'm not concerned about a bite from a juvenile python but when she gets to be an adult, I'm sure she'll have no problem drawing some considerable blood.:
I can assure you that if anyone recommends feeding in a separate container, they are not a snake expert. Listen to the breeder and feed in her enclosure.
Use a cage hook to hook train the snake and to remove or manipulate the snake in its enclosure.
Your snake will not starve itself. Make sure the F/T prey is sufficiently warm, and use tongs to simulate movement. It will catch on eventually.
I can assure you that if anyone recommends feeding in a separate container, they are not a snake expert. Listen to the breeder and feed in her enclosure.
Use a cage hook to hook train the snake and to remove or manipulate the snake in its enclosure.
Your snake will not starve itself. Make sure the F/T prey is sufficiently warm, and use tongs to simulate movement. It will catch on eventually.
All of this. 100% Especially the part I have bolded.
Andy27012
05-09-19, 11:50 AM
I have placed my feeders on a human heating pad with a towel on top of them. This seems to get the rodent closest to a natural temp without danger of cooking them. I have on occasion scented them with chick down. Lastly I wiggle the rodent while the animal is constricting it to simulate a struggling animal. These three have always yielded success for me.
This is awesome. Thank you guys very much for the feedback. I will take advantage of it all & I appreciate it more than I can say. I'll definitely post with an update.
Aaron_S
05-13-19, 10:48 AM
This is awesome. Thank you guys very much for the feedback. I will take advantage of it all & I appreciate it more than I can say. I'll definitely post with an update.
We look forward to it.
As an additional piece of information, I agree with everyone suggesting feeding in the enclosure is just fine and hook training to get around any cage food responses when you don't want them.
The logic behind feeding in a separate tub is that the snake will see something coming into the enclosure and think it's food. However, this also applies to the idea the snake getting conditioned that it's coming out of the enclosure it will also think it's getting food and thus react the same. This is why it's suggested to just feed in the enclosure.
Again, I really appreciate the help, you guys -- and I definitely appreciate you reading through everything I wrote in my original post. I tried an intra-enclosure feeding last night but no success as of yet. She's still doing her dumb striking, behaving like she just wants the prey to go away. I attempted 4 intra-enclosure feedings for the duration of an hour, spaced 15m apart. I then moved her to the tub to try that once more and was greeted with the same behavior. There are a couple of 1 to 2 min videos below that were taken during this stage:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T7eRXh8SxSPyaq4OYgSPXIdu0fk2hGgd/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PY89VkrLctBZbbzmCadkjb3vBlbAHroH/view
(For the first one above, sorry but you'll probably want to just skip 30s in.)
Can anyone further advise on what I should be doing? On the final feeding attempt in the tub, I just left the hopper in there to see if she would feed, but she didn't. I've never had such a difficult time with feeding as this and I've had 2 Royal Pythons and 1 Jungle Carpet before for a number of years. I still feel confident that she'll eat live but I *really* don't want to go back to that. Obviously, it's cruel for the prey (though I know this happens regularly in the wild) but it's also very easy for the prey to bite the snake, as I'm sure you all agree..
Andy27012 -- can you tell me what kind of heating pad you use and where you get your chick down? Does everyone else agree that this is something to try? I've never had to go this route but then again I've never had a snake that's been so resistant to frozen/thawed feeding.
MDT -- you're positive she won't starve herself, correct? As in, if i just keep trying f/t then she'll eventually become hungry enough to eat? I desperately hope so...
Does anyone else have any input and/or suggestions? Thank you all in advance for your help...
Again, I really appreciate the help, you guys -- and I definitely appreciate you reading through everything I wrote in my original post. I tried an intra-enclosure feeding last night but no success as of yet. She's still doing her dumb striking, behaving like she just wants the prey to go away. I attempted 4 intra-enclosure feedings for the duration of an hour, spaced 15m apart. I then moved her to the tub to try that once more and was greeted with the same behavior. There are a couple of 1 to 2 min videos below that were taken during this stage:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T7eRXh8SxSPyaq4OYgSPXIdu0fk2hGgd/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PY89VkrLctBZbbzmCadkjb3vBlbAHroH/view
(For the first one above, sorry but you'll probably want to just skip 30s in.)
Can anyone further advise on what I should be doing? On the final feeding attempt in the tub, I just left the hopper in there to see if she would feed, but she didn't. I've never had such a difficult time with feeding as this and I've had 2 Royal Pythons and 1 Jungle Carpet before for a number of years. I still feel confident that she'll eat live but I *really* don't want to go back to that. Obviously, it's cruel for the prey (though I know this happens regularly in the wild) but it's also very easy for the prey to bite the snake, as I'm sure you all agree..
Andy27012 -- can you tell me what kind of heating pad you use and where you get your chick down? Does everyone else agree that this is something to try? I've never had to go this route but then again I've never had a snake that's been so resistant to frozen/thawed feeding.
MDT -- you're positive she won't starve herself, correct? As in, if i just keep trying f/t then she'll eventually become hungry enough to eat? I desperately hope so...
Does anyone else have any input and/or suggestions? Thank you all in advance for your help...
Other carpet keepers may want to add to this, but typically, they will "just start" to eat one day. I have had several hatchlings that seemed like it took forever to get eating. keep offering food. Give it a couple of tries, but if no dice, leave the thawed rodent in the enclosure overnight. Sometimes, they will eat later. It can be VERY frustrating. If worried about starving, get a small digital scale and monitor its weight.
I re-read your original post... you say it was feeding for the breeder, right?
EL Ziggy
05-13-19, 02:55 PM
I didn't see it mentioned so I'll ask. What are your temps like and how are you heating your enclosure? I agree with MDT. She'll catch on eventually. I've had a couple of carpets that were slow to get started but once they get going they're usually full steam ahead. I've also never seen a healthy snake starve itself to death and I strongly believe that hunger will always win in the end. I'd suggest you not worry and don't force it. The snake has pretty good body tone so as long as she doesn't start to lose a lot of weight just keep offering food every 14-21 days until she gets the message. Keep feeding in the enclosure and if she doesn't take the food from tongs either leave it in overnight or remove it after a few hours and give it to another snake. Please keep us posted on your progress.
Hey there MDT and El Ziggy. Understood about taking Carpets an unusually long time to start eating, so thank you for that, MDT. I *have* left the hopper in her tub before but not in the enclosure, so I'll try that. I've only left the mouse in there for max a half hour though. Are you sure the mouse won't rot overnight and poison the snake? And you're right, I should get the scale -- good idea. If I notice her losing any weight at all (she doesn't seem to be so far), then you're saying I should feed her at least one live to compensate, correct?
But no, Medusa is mine -- not the breeder's. He's just been helping me throughout this entire process, which I know is unusually generous for a seller to do. Believe me, I'm grateful.
El Ziggy -- my temps are 90° F at the top, 80° F just below midway down, and I can only think it'd be 70° F at the bottom but I don't have a temp gauge down there to confirm. As you can see, I have 3 gauges across the top and 1 in the middle so I can get an extra-comprehensive idea of the temps throughout the enclosure since it is rather large. I expect you'd also say something about having her in front of a window, but believe me, I keep a hyper-watchful eye on her temps and I've never forgotten to do that -- ever. (Her well-being is basically somewhere in my mind at all times.) Plus, there's blinds right in back of her enclosure, so if it gets too hot, I just pull the blinds. (I know I need to get a temp controller as well.)
However, I'd been attempting feeding every week -- is that too often? I'll definitely keep trying in her enclosure, so that's a given at this point. Thank you also for your kind assurances, you and MDT both. They mean a great deal.
Enclosure (close-up): https://drive.google.com/open?id=1P7gw8Dl_-dDaIbWEUoYxYZmJSmz1GkSR
Enclosure (wide): https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YQ6etQtW7lgs_HkAQX_WEx8xRzTqWihX
Overnight is fine, it won't harm your snake. But, I wouldn't leave in there past 24ish hours. As far as the scale goes, do not fixate on this. Just weight your snake every week and look at trends to give you an idea if there may be a catabolic state. You might give your snake a week off food attempts and try after 7-8 days.
As far as the breeder goes, how well was your snake feeding when you got her? I start all of my carpets out on rat pinks. Only rarely have I had to go to mice. At 10 months, she should easily be on rats. I watched your feeding video (beautiful JCP btw!). I have had good luck grasping the prey by the neck and presenting it at ground level rather than dangling it overhead. I have no data or studies to support this (it just seems logical to me), but a smaller snake may feel threatened by an object towering overhead like that rather than presenting at "face level". Just throwing suggestions out there. You will prob try about 100 diff things but at some point, she will likely start to feed on her own.
Aaron_S
05-14-19, 12:05 PM
All good suggestions given. I am no expert on carpet python babies but I can tell you the piece of advice given to me when I had a stubborn eater was just be consistent.
Offer the same type of prey item (maybe a rat would be better but whatever you decide stick to it)
Offer every 5 days or every 7 days.
Offer at night/dusk and leave the item in there until morning. It won't harm the snake.
As El Ziggy said, a healthy snake, and yours definitely seems to be one, won't starve itself to death.
MDT -- thank you immensely for being so quick and thorough in your replies: definitely much appreciated! Understood about leaving the mouse out overnight being ok -- and yeah I'm pretty confident in my ability to tell if she's losing weight. Still, I might buy the scale just to be sure. I do currently attempt feedings weekly so I'm already on the 7-8 day schedule.
Four days after I first got her -- and this is the strange thing -- she ate 3 F/T mouse pinks right off the bat. So that's the frustrating thing: I *know* she can do it! (Apparently, she just has to get hungry enough.) But yes, true about the rat issue: the latest word from the breeder (just last night) was that I should be starting her on rat pinks, so good call on that. Thank you also for the compliment for her: she's a looker, right? :)
Also, very true on the level of the prey thing: I find she strikes far more often if the mouse is close to the ground as opposed to dangling in the air. A bit more on what my breeder recommended last night: he suggested I get a 24oz deli cup, put the snake in there, close the perforated lid, and lay the prey on top of the lid. He said this is because he'd like to see the feeding space minimized and she'll also be smelling the rat this whole time, hopefully making her all the more hungry.
Do you have any thoughts on this?
Aaron_S - thank you, man -- I appreciate it. Yeah the consensus is that I should be giving her rats so I'm definitely going to start doing that on a weekly basis as well. And yes -- going to try leaving the prey overnight. Thank you for the compliment on her appearance, by the way -- everyone here has helped alleviate my fear of her starving and that means more than I can say. Any thoughts on what my breeder recommended above in my response to MDT? Thank you in advance, Aaron, very much.
Aaron_S
05-15-19, 08:06 AM
MDT -- thank you immensely for being so quick and thorough in your replies: definitely much appreciated! Understood about leaving the mouse out overnight being ok -- and yeah I'm pretty confident in my ability to tell if she's losing weight. Still, I might buy the scale just to be sure. I do currently attempt feedings weekly so I'm already on the 7-8 day schedule.
Four days after I first got her -- and this is the strange thing -- she ate 3 F/T mouse pinks right off the bat. So that's the frustrating thing: I *know* she can do it! (Apparently, she just has to get hungry enough.) But yes, true about the rat issue: the latest word from the breeder (just last night) was that I should be starting her on rat pinks, so good call on that. Thank you also for the compliment for her: she's a looker, right? :)
Also, very true on the level of the prey thing: I find she strikes far more often if the mouse is close to the ground as opposed to dangling in the air. A bit more on what my breeder recommended last night: he suggested I get a 24oz deli cup, put the snake in there, close the perforated lid, and lay the prey on top of the lid. He said this is because he'd like to see the feeding space minimized and she'll also be smelling the rat this whole time, hopefully making her all the more hungry.
Do you have any thoughts on this?
You're welcome.
I have never used a trick like that before. However, it's not a bad idea to thaw the rat near the enclosure. I leave my frozen items out in the snake area and they are all hungry and hunting by the time it's thawed out.
Cool -- thank you for that confirmation, Aaron_S. And thank you for being a kickass moderator and approving my earlier posts with a quickness. I appreciate everyone's help on here more than words.
Aaron_S
05-15-19, 03:01 PM
Cool -- thank you for that confirmation, Aaron_S. And thank you for being a kickass moderator and approving my earlier posts with a quickness. I appreciate everyone's help on here more than words.
I appreciate the compliment but I am NOT the mod who approves all the posts lol. I can't be bothered and someone else does it. I do the banning/warnings/etc.
Yikes -- sorry for the long delay, Aaron_S and sorry for mistaking you for the post-approval guy. I've truly appreciated all the help I've gotten here; it means a great deal.
So, again, thank you everyone. Some updates, however: I waited until 5/26 but then I gave in and fed her 3 live hoppers. The interesting thing was that she started with the first the same way she's been dumb striking the F/Ts: as if she wasn't sure of the thing before her and just kind of wanted it to go away. Hence, this reaffirmed what some of you have been saying, that she just needs to get in the groove, realize the F/T is edible prey, and then go for it. (She ate the successive 2 live ones immediately.)
Then I tried feeding her a rat pup a week ago and, of course, she didn't go for it since I've now reaffirmed her predilection for live. I did the heat lamp thaw for the pup with it on the lid of her small feeding tub and then also tried feeding her in her enclosure and then left it in there overnight. (She didn’t take it.)
I also got a digital scale as per your recommendations. She weighed 135g before the live feeding and then 152g after. I'm assuming that what I need to do is weigh her after her next shed and *then* see if she starts dropping weight. I'm thinking as long as she's not dropping weight, I can keep attempting the F/T feedings starting off with trying it in her enclosure -- and then if she doesn't do it there, try the feeding tub. (In other words, the reverse of what I did a week ago.) Does this sound like the right way to go?
I'm sorry this is so long but I’m just trying to be as detailed as possible. It's been 1 month and 21 days since she last shed and she doesn't yet seem to be going into another. Hence, my pressing question for right now is: do I go ahead with a few more live just to get her over the hump of her next shed and then, after that, do strictly F/T attempts while closely monitoring her weight?
Again, I really appreciate the help I've gotten so far and I'm definitely impressed some of you have dared read all (or at least most) of what I've written. You should have seen how this morning started off: I was handling her a bit and she's so vivacious and sprightly. You can just tell that she feels good -- and to me I have no greater responsibility than to keep her feeling this way.
Aaron_S
06-10-19, 12:12 PM
Yikes -- sorry for the long delay, Aaron_S and sorry for mistaking you for the post-approval guy. I've truly appreciated all the help I've gotten here; it means a great deal.
So, again, thank you everyone. Some updates, however: I waited until 5/26 but then I gave in and fed her 3 live hoppers. The interesting thing was that she started with the first the same way she's been dumb striking the F/Ts: as if she wasn't sure of the thing before her and just kind of wanted it to go away. Hence, this reaffirmed what some of you have been saying, that she just needs to get in the groove, realize the F/T is edible prey, and then go for it. (She ate the successive 2 live ones immediately.)
Then I tried feeding her a rat pup a week ago and, of course, she didn't go for it since I've now reaffirmed her predilection for live. I did the heat lamp thaw for the pup with it on the lid of her small feeding tub and then also tried feeding her in her enclosure and then left it in there overnight. (She didn’t take it.)
I also got a digital scale as per your recommendations. She weighed 135g before the live feeding and then 152g after. I'm assuming that what I need to do is weigh her after her next shed and *then* see if she starts dropping weight. I'm thinking as long as she's not dropping weight, I can keep attempting the F/T feedings starting off with trying it in her enclosure -- and then if she doesn't do it there, try the feeding tub. (In other words, the reverse of what I did a week ago.) Does this sound like the right way to go?
I'm sorry this is so long but I’m just trying to be as detailed as possible. It's been 1 month and 21 days since she last shed and she doesn't yet seem to be going into another. Hence, my pressing question for right now is: do I go ahead with a few more live just to get her over the hump of her next shed and then, after that, do strictly F/T attempts while closely monitoring her weight?
Again, I really appreciate the help I've gotten so far and I'm definitely impressed some of you have dared read all (or at least most) of what I've written. You should have seen how this morning started off: I was handling her a bit and she's so vivacious and sprightly. You can just tell that she feels good -- and to me I have no greater responsibility than to keep her feeling this way.
I'd do that. i'd offer a few live meals and then offer a F/T meal again. Sometimes it takes a bit.
Thank you Aaron. I appreciate it, man.
Scubadiver59
06-12-19, 04:05 AM
And for my Dumerils Boa and my Anthill/Pygmy Python...it never worked. My patience did have an end, and I've still got them, but they just won't take f/t.
I'd do that. i'd offer a few live meals and then offer a F/T meal again. Sometimes it takes a bit.
And for my Dumerils Boa and my Anthill/Pygmy Python...it never worked. My patience did have an end, and I've still got them, but they just won't take f/t.
That's a trip, Scubadiver59. I hope that's not the case for me because I really don't enjoy this process, that poor mouse *definitely* doesn't enjoy the process, and it's dangerous for my girl even though I monitor the feeding hyperclose. I mean, I know they do this all the time in the wild but snakes also often get bit in the wild and (more than) occasionally die in the wild. Did either your Boa or Python (or both) start to lose weight before you resumed feeding?
Scubadiver59
06-12-19, 07:43 PM
Not so much my juvenile Dumerils but my Anthill did. I've tried off and on, going months w/o feeding, but to no avail. Maybe I'm just too softhearted...
That's a trip, Scubadiver59. I hope that's not the case for me because I really don't enjoy this process, that poor mouse *definitely* doesn't enjoy the process, and it's dangerous for my girl even though I monitor the feeding hyperclose. I mean, I know they do this all the time in the wild but snakes also often get bit in the wild and (more than) occasionally die in the wild. Did either your Boa or Python (or both) start to lose weight before you resumed feeding?
Not so much my juvenile Dumerils but my Anthill did. I've tried off and on, going months w/o feeding, but to no avail. Maybe I'm just too softhearted...
Believe me, I hear you Scubadiver59, so I'm going to approach this very methodically: I'm going to feed her live in a couple days to get her over this next shed. And then after the shed/poop, I'm going to take her weight with the super-precise digital scale like I've been doing every week now. And then I'm absolutely not going to feed her live again until the first sign of her losing weight. Up until that point, all I'm going to do is attempt F/T feedings.
She ate F/T right when I first got her after her trip from California 4 1/2 months ago, so I *know* she can do it. Plus, I figure I'm helping her by doing this -- not hurting her -- since, as noted, she can easily get bit during a live feeding.
So, that's the plan.
Side note: people are always saying how "terribly cruel" live feedings for constrictors are, but [1] they don't seem to recognize that this happens in the wild all the time, and [2] a live feeding is very risky for the snake as well since they are indeed quite vulnerable during the constriction process.
Venomous snakes have it easy. ;)
Aaron_S
06-13-19, 08:14 AM
Believe me, I hear you Scubadiver59, so I'm going to approach this very methodically: I'm going to feed her live in a couple days to get her over this next shed. And then after the shed/poop, I'm going to take her weight with the super-precise digital scale like I've been doing every week now. And then I'm absolutely not going to feed her live again until the first sign of her losing weight. Up until that point, all I'm going to do is attempt F/T feedings.
She ate F/T right when I first got her after her trip from California 4 1/2 months ago, so I *know* she can do it. Plus, I figure I'm helping her by doing this -- not hurting her -- since, as noted, she can easily get bit during a live feeding.
So, that's the plan.
Side note: people are always saying how "terribly cruel" live feedings for constrictors are, but [1] they don't seem to recognize that this happens in the wild all the time, and [2] a live feeding is very risky for the snake as well since they are indeed quite vulnerable during the constriction process.
Venomous snakes have it easy. ;)
I wouldn't worry about minor weight loss. I'd be looking at like 15 - 20% weight loss before I began to worry.
I wouldn't worry about minor weight loss. I'd be looking at like 15 - 20% weight loss before I began to worry.
Oh cool. Ok understood & thank you for that, Aaron!
I also wanted to clarify my closing statement earlier. Venomous snakes don't have it easy. No snake has it easy. But venomous serpents do seem to have it perhaps a bit easier than constrictors.
Hey there guys -- it's me again. Looking for a bit more help with the ongoing feeding issue(s) but I'll try to be brief.
So she's now a year old and weighs just 165g. She last shed June 26 and it was a good one: almost a single piece. Right after the shed, she weighed 174g. She has not eaten since and I've only been offering her F/T. I've been closely weighing her every week and so the 6 weighings since that shed have gone like this:
6/29 - 174g
7/6 - 169g
7/13 - 169g
7/20 - 165g
7/27 - 165g
8/3 - 165g
So I've been told I need not worry unless she starts to lose 15% - 20% of her body weight. So if we say 82.5% of 174g, then that's 144g. Hence, it's good she's nowhere near that: she still has 20g to go before I start worrying. Also, last check 3 days ago she was still strong and feisty as ever and looked great.
F/T feeding methods I've tried:
[1] In small opaque tub (about 1'³) where I lift off the lid completely and attempt the feed: she's eaten live that way before but never F/T (just does dumb striking)
[2] In large opaque tub (about 2.5'³) where I just partially unconver the lid and hang the prey down with forceps: she ate 3 F/T pinkies that way on 2/2 right when I first got her (she was shipped to me overnight) and though she strikes more confidently there than in the small tub, it's still mostly just dumb striking
[3] Straight in her enclosure: she doesn't seem to like this either, more dumb striking. I also leave the prey in her enclosure overnight. Needless to say, she's never gone for this either.
[4] In a (relatively) small deli cup: no go here at all too
* When I've tried feeding her outside her enclosure, I've kept a couple F/Ts at the top to keep the scent around
* I've tried feeding a range of prey sizes whenever I've attempted feedings: from pinkes to hoppers to rat pups. She seems to prefer the hoppers the most but only marginally
* I've tried 2 methods of thawing: one under a heat lamp for about an hour (being very careful not to overheat) the plastic bag/hot water method. No preference indicated as of yet.
I did make the mistake of attempting feedings every week there for about a month and a half, completely forgetting this was a bad idea. I guess I was just desperate to have her eat, but still -- I realize I shouldn't have done this.
Hence, thus begins the 5 questions I have for you guys:
[1] I last tried to feed her 7/27, so should I try again 8/10 or wait how much longer?
[2] For those 2 weeks she was at 169g and the 3 (so far) she's been at 165g, how is it possible she didn't lose *any* weight over those durations? My digital scale is very accurate and seems to work fine.
[3] Every time I've seen a professional feed a snake (especially a python), they just have those pull-out plastic drawers that they open a bit and then feed using forceps. So since she seems to give the best response when I open the lid just a little on the tub, I bought these opaque (black) plastic drawers that are sized about 1.75'³ and that slide out just like I see professionals use. Granted, when I see professionals attempt a feeding, those snakes actually *live* in those drawers. But I'm thinking if I give her about an hour in there before feeding, she might quickly grow used to the environment and then be ready to feed. Does this sound like a good plan?
[4] I have a guy with a lot of reptile experience with whom I work closely at a local pet store and he said he'd be glad to attempt a feeding or even do an assist. I know I should only resort to this if my girl loses 20% of her weight, but could an assist-feed put her on the track of eating F/T?
[5] Since I've seen a couple people mention this before, is it really true that some snakes may just never go for F/T -- and may starve themselves because of this?
Sorry for the lack of brevity, but I've tried to be as detailed as possible. I really feel badly about all the reading I'm asking you guys to do so please just let me know if I can summarize any parts thereof. Thank you all again in advance for your help.
[ ** I define "dumb striking" as strikes seemingly intended only to remove the offending prey from the snake's immediate area -- not to consume the prey. In other words, strikes apparently meant to frighten without intent to actually constrict. ]
craigafrechette
08-07-19, 09:45 AM
Hey there, I'm kinda late to the party, but felt it was important to chime in here.
Your feeding attempts are all over the place. Different locations, different techniques, different prey. You need to strive for consistency. Right now all the variances are stressing your snake.
You're never going to get anywhere that way. You need to be consistent with your offerings.
Whichever prey item the animal was eating before you brought it home will be your best bet - at least to get started. You can always upsize or transition from there. But getting her eating is obviously priority.
FEED INSIDE THE ENCLOSURE!!!!!!
Using seperate feeding tubs is old school and proven COUNTER PRODUCTIVE over time. There is literally ZERO benefit to feeding in a seperate feeding tub.
Feeding tubs:
A) increase the odds the snake refuses it's meal. Moving the animal = stress. Stress = refusal
B) increase the chances of the snake regurgitating it's meal. Moving the snake after eating = stress. Stress = regurge.
C) increase your chances of being tagged. Snakes remain in feed mode for upwards of 24 hours after eating.
Now, think forward. IF the snake were to accept in a seperate feeding tub....are you really going to want to be moving an 8 foot snake before and after each feeding?
Snakes become creatures of habit. So IF you get her eating in a seperate feeding tub as a juvenile, that may be VERY difficult to break once the animal has some size on her.
That sliding drawer idea is a great way of thinking outside the box, but unfortunately it would have the opposite affect.
At this point, stick to basics. Keep it very simple. Focus on husbandry, no handling the snake at all until it is eating consistently. I highly recommend waiting until the snake has eaten 3 consecutive meals without refusal. If there's a refusal the clock restarts. You don't need to weigh weekly. You'll be able to tell if the snake is losing considerable weight visually.
I can't stress enough, feed inside the enclosure. Keep it simple. Be consistent.
Yeah maybe I should have mentioned this ain't my first rodeo.
I had a Jungle Carpet just like this one a few years ago -- as well as 2 Royals -- and they ate *awesome* in a separate tub. So did I just randomly luck out and that was some sort of unique convergence/synchonicity where all the stars aligned perfectly? I never got bit, they never regurgitated. Nada.
I *have* heard people tell me that if you feed in the enclosure regularly, after a few months or so when you stick your hands in there to grab the snake, it could very well trigger a feeding response and it's a great way to get bit. So is that a total lie someone just made up?
Also, I haven't been randomly jumping to different feeding attempts all over the place. Those methods I listed above have been done over a time period of 6 months, ever since I first had the snake.
And I *have* moved an 8-foot to and from a feeding tub in the past. Quite regularly during that time. I'm a big guy. An 8' snake is nowhere near too much for me to handle.
A 13' Burmese might be pushing it a little but yeah, short of that, no worries.
craigafrechette
08-07-19, 11:07 AM
Yeah, feeding tubs USED TO BE common. But like I said, they've been proven counter productive.
I USED TO run my heating equipment without being regulated by a thermostat. Just because I used to doesn't make it the best way now that I've learned. Of course, that was almost 20 years ago, but my point is we learn as we go and as research and experience teaches us to improve.
The cage aggression is 100% myth. I've NEVER ONCE been struck at inside any of my enclosures. My strikes and bites have always come OUTSIDE the enclosure.
As for the variance in prey items and delivery, I'm sure you're not just randomly bouncing from one to the next.
I'm just suggesting sticking to what the animal was eating prior to you taking it home. That will likely be your best bet to get the snake eating consistently.
Ok I appreciate the help you're offering and I'll use it, so thank you. A few questions remain though:
[1] I'll make feeding within the enclosure a priority but how soon should I resume my attempts? If I start 8/10, that will only be 2 weeks since I last tried. If that's too soon, how long should I wait?
[2] Since it's been warmer, she's been doing something she hasn't done before: staying in her hide during the day. She used to be strictly arboreal and made great use of the branches in her large enclosure but now she generally comes out of her hide only at night. Hence, could this by why she hasn't lost a single gram in weight over the last 3 weeks?
[3] I think I'm going to stick to hoppers for now (F/T, obviously). They seem a little small for her but she seems to strike more at them than she does pinkes or rat pups. Does this sound like a good plan?
[4] Could an assist-feed (last resort, of course) help put her on the track of eating F/T?
[5] Again, are there some snakes who simply will not accept F/T and will starve themselves because of this?
Thank you, craigafrechette, and everyone else for your help.
craigafrechette
08-07-19, 01:54 PM
Ok I appreciate the help you're offering and I'll use it, so thank you. A few questions remain though:
[1] I'll make feeding within the enclosure a priority but how soon should I resume my attempts? If I start 8/10, that will only be 2 weeks since I last tried. If that's too soon, how long should I wait?
[2] Since it's been warmer, she's been doing something she hasn't done before: staying in her hide during the day. She used to be strictly arboreal and made great use of the branches in her large enclosure but now she generally comes out of her hide only at night. Hence, could this by why she hasn't lost a single gram in weight over the last 3 weeks?
[3] I think I'm going to stick to hoppers for now (F/T, obviously). They seem a little small for her but she seems to strike more at them than she does pinkes or rat pups. Does this sound like a good plan?
[4] Could an assist-feed (last resort, of course) help put her on the track of eating F/T?
[5] Again, are there some snakes who simply will not accept F/T and will starve themselves because of this?
Thank you, craigafrechette, and everyone else for your help.
I think you can go ahead and offer on schedule. I think you're safe offering every 7-10 until she gets eating regularly.
She may just be settling in too. Some take longer than others to acclimate.
If hoppers are what she was eating prior I would say stick with that. Once she's eating regularly and oacks on a little weight you'll have more wiggle room to upsize or switch to rats.
An assist feed should be an ABSOLUTE last resort and should never be done on an animal that already knows how to eat. Assist feeding should be reserved for hatchlings and neonates that have yet to eat at all.
I've heard mixed schools of thought on whether or not a snake will only take live prey for it's entire life.
I currently have one snake who is a serious pain in the rear end as far as taking F/T prey. He'll take live any time I offer, but will only take F/T once in a great while.
He's my only snake I've ever had trouble getting to eat F/T.
I also understand that in the UK feeding live is extremely taboo and almost unheard of. So that leads me to believe that the vast majority of snakes will take F/T eventually.
Cool -- thank you again, man; much appreciated:
So ok I'll just stick with the weekly attempt until she (hopefully) gets used to the F/T and I'll use hoppers regularly. Yeah just the idea of an assist-feed on her makes me panic since I can't imagine how traumatic that must be. Also, the likelihood of injury during such a feeding must be pretty high.
I do wonder if it could have anything to do with the quality of the prey. I've been buying from a local pet store for these recent feeding attempts but in the past I've used RodentPro.com in almost all my feedings. I just have this suspicion that their mice/rats might be of a superior quality compared to the ones I've been getting.
I just... she's scaring me a little with this because I love her so much.
craigafrechette
08-07-19, 09:10 PM
I have heard of snakes refusing the big box stores brands. I know Petco sells Arctic Mice brand, and they're definitely low quality compared to a product like Rodent Pro.
I have been using Perfect Prey for a while and really like them. Their shipping isn't bad at all if you're on the east coast.
chairman
08-08-19, 12:32 PM
I'm a bit late to the party too. I hatched out a clutch of carpet pythons last year and have been feeding them f/t from birth. I thaw my rats by leaving them in warm water until they are thawed. Then I use a paper towel to dry off just the head, and hold the rats in front of the snakes with tongs.
Most of my snakes won't eat unless the head has been dried off and the rest of the body is wet. I forget which breeder I am copying, but apparently the approach focuses the majority of the scent at the head, giving the snakes a target to work with.
My thawed rats are probably luke warm, not heated up like my ball pythons seem to require.
As for actual technique, some of my snakes happily strike at the rats. Some, I need to hold the rat perfectly still in front of the snake as it presses its head into the rat, the snake itself gradually increasing pressure on the rat until it decides to grab hold. One prefers my leaving the rat on a perch overnight.
I'd recommend trying to thaw using water, drying the head, and attempting to tong feed the snake while it is in its enclosure. If it doesn't want the prey off the tongs, leave it in an elevated spot overnight.
Craig -- sorry, I meant to reply earlier but yeah I suspect pet stores aren't getting the best feeders at all. Thank you for recommending Perfect Prey -- I'll check them out. I'm not on the east coast but maybe their shipping is comparable to Rodent Pro. Thank you for all the help you've offered as it really does mean more than I can say.
Chairman -- you're not late at all! I will take all the help I can get. Your post was really well-written, by the way. Nicely detailed too. I can't imagine what a joy it must have been to see a bunch of wittle baby carpets! Anyway, I'm definitely going to try the dried-head approach with the warm-water thaw.
Thinking about this approach, it really does make perfect sense because what the snake is then getting from the head is a stronger scent of the prey. The water -- by definition -- undoubtedly dilutes the potency of the scent, literally watering it down. So thank you for recommending this; I'm surprised this is the first I'm hearing of this method.
Just to add some further clarity, my girl *has* eaten f/t before: 3 pinkies back almost exactly half a year ago when she was just half a year old right after her being in overnight transport from the west coast. She hadn't eaten at that point in almost 2 weeks and was obviously very young and very hungry. Hence, I know she *can* do it. I just need to get her back to the point where she recognizes the f/t scent -- like the live scent she currently recognizes (for they must be strongly different smells to a snake) -- as food.
Thank you again, both of you, for all the help.
craigafrechette
08-08-19, 02:26 PM
Craig -- sorry, I meant to reply earlier but yeah I suspect pet stores aren't getting the best feeders at all. Thank you for recommending Perfect Prey -- I'll check them out. I'm not on the east coast but maybe their shipping is comparable to Rodent Pro. Thank you for all the help you've offered as it really does mean more than I can say.
No worries at all. I forget to reply sometimes too, hahahahha. I'm happy to help whenever I can.
As for other prey supply options, I've never used the following but have heard good things throughout the snake community.
Aside from Perfect Prey and Rodent Pro...
Big Cheese and Layne Labs are good options, but again, that's based on what I've heard and read from reputable sources, and I have no hands on experience to share.
Craig -- definitely, and thanks again man. I'm checking out Perfect Prey and perhaps those other two as well. I'll report back what I find out for sure.
Jungle Carpet Python: Transitioning From Live To Frozen/Thawed
Hello Everone!
i am new to this community forum.
Jungle Carpet Python: Transitioning From Live To Frozen/Thawed
Hi Everyone, I'm new to community forum.
ClockwerkBonnet
11-26-19, 10:55 PM
Welcome, Maxx!
By the way, you don't have to incorporate the thread title into your posts. :)
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