Venomoids.........#@$%&*

[Gregg M]

Why is it every time I go on the OTHER site someone is asking about how to get a venomoid???? I dont understand....... What a disaster this has become...... This is just another thing that ruins our awsome hobby...... Sorry but I just needed to vent alittle.....

[snakemann87]

hey, I know how you feel. Recently somone (no mention), said in a few years he would like to keep venomous, but first he wants to own venomoids to PRACTICE. He said many times, "whats wrong with a venomoid?". I was shocked, I simply left.

[asphyxia]

Please explain what the word "venomoids" means

Thanks
Brian

[Matt]

i completely agree gregg, its just the "fallic syndrome" of people wanting to SAY they keep hots and flaunt it, but refuse to take the real responsibilities that come along with the real thing.
I dont agree with what it does to the animals either!

[Gregg M]

It is when some butcher takes a perfectly good venomous snake and rips its face apart to take the venom glands out so they can play with a gaboon viper or cobra without being envenomated if a bite should happen.... It is mean and crule to do and should be outlawed

[BWSmith]

OK, now ya did it. Ya got me talking about voids. ;)

Here is a post I made on reptilehaven.net's venomous forum entiltled "Venomoids and Herpetoculture"

" Despite the obvious health problems that the aminal will endure, something else must be considered. Safety of the keeper and community. I liken buying a venomoid to someone handing you a gun, and you putting it to your head and pulling the trigger because THEY said it was unloaded. These surguries have been known to regenerate over time. Look at your own body, some wounds scar froever and some heal completely. The ductectomy is particularly likely to not be permanent condition. simply severing and cauderizing the venom ducts has been known to regenerate in the past. What do you have then? A hot snake and an incapable and incompetant keeper placing himself, his family, and the community at risk.

Noone can predict what nature is going to throw at them. In the words of Jurassic Park: "Nature Finds a Way."

I once had a dog run away. Why dont we just cut the legs off all dogs so they can't do that?
That cat meows too much. Let's tear out its vocal cords. Maybe bust out all its teeth, just so we know it won't bite.

I am disgusted by the fact that venomoids are becoming so popular. What disturbs me even more is that they are portrayed as "PETS"

Myself and many other hot keepers in the SHHS has decided that we will never buy an animal from ANY dealer that sells venomoids. Many have even refused to attend shows where venomoids are being sold. Their seem to be several dealers are working exclusively in venomoids. Perhaps some will survive. Hopefully they will fail or see the err in their ways. I am comprising a list of dealers who work with venomoids. These are only the ones who have the surgury done for profit. As anyone in the hobby knows, occasionaly the odd venomoid comes through in a trade. i do not hold these people accountable. Only the ones who intentionally produce these poor souls from a once magnifiscent creature. "

Now for some new stuff. After disussing this subject with Ray Hunter (Cobraman) a while back, he decided that Exotic Reptiles Jungle would no longer sell venomoids. I admire the love for the animals outweighing the almighty dollar and i applaude Ray for this choice and now consider him a friend.

Stories I have heard that scare the hell out of me. These two came fromt he same, reliable and honest source and I have had the first verified by another. A "Do-It-yourself Venomoid Kit" :mad: And second, animals being sold as venomoids when they are actually fully hot and never had the surgury just so the dealer can make more money!!!!!!


I think venomoids are an abomination of nature and an insult to everything I try to teach and believe. I have an ongoing boycott list of ANY dealers that create or sell venomoids. In my opinion, these people have no respect for the animals and see it as a status symbol. But as long as Croc Hunter wanna-be's and macho idiots with an inferiority complex keep buying them they will keep selling them and producing them.



On another note, I would like to say that Steeve is immune to my comments as his case was calmly and honestly prtrayed and hold him at no fault for having owned one. :D

[Vanan]

Ok, first up, I'm in no way taking sides on this issue and if it makes you guys feel at ease, I do agree with alot you've said.

Out of curiosity, what would be wrong with a responsible, level-headed, non-testosterone-pumping, adult, keeping a venomoid, while treating it with full respect. If he still were to not handle it, use hooks, tongs, special cages, the whole nine yards. Maybe he got the venomoid just to reduce the risk of a fatal envenomation.

Aside from most snakes not doing well after surgery, what other faults can you pick with a guy like that?

Please don't get me wrong as I'm all for no venomoids, but there can be exceptions right? The rare ones at least.

[Matt]

Vanan,
your correct about the fact that there can be responsible keepers keeping venomoids not for the typically testosterone reasons,

but
i think what the problem is, is that it is both dangerous and disrespectful to the snake
there is no good excuse to alter a snake just for the enjoyment of keepers...there are plenty of cool non venomous out there is someone doesnt want to keep hot.

for me, its an ethical issue (its not rght to do to the snakes, purely for our gratification), and the typical testosterone pumping, bragging reasons are just an additional pi$$ off.

just my opinon, i feel strongly about venomoids (as do many others here)

[Scales Zoo]

SCALES Zoo collection of reptiles is entirely non-venomous by choice. We live and work in prairie rattler territory, and respect them while in their area.
Venomoids were not ever considered, as it is our belief that by removing the venom glands, you ultimately compromise the snake by interfering with the capability of it delivering the venom as a primary digestive agent (correct me if I am wrong, but is venom not only intended to immobilize the prey, but to break down tissue for digestion?)
Shame on the vet or butcher who would do this to a snake...we have a rescue boa that was bitten in the face by a live hamster, he required $1000 worth of facial surgery to repair the damage, and I would not wish this trauma on any healthy animal for the convenience of the keeper.

We meet kids at our educational shows who are disappointed that we do not have rattlesnakes and king cobras on display. They also think it would be "COOL" to have a cobra or viper. I tell them that I think those are really nice cars, if I had one I would keep it in the garage. I wish people looking for a testosterone/adrenaline rush would go buy a parachute and jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
We are in no way against the keeping of venomous snakes, we just choose not to. They are some of the most magnificent specimens, and we are fortunate to have some very well informed experienced keepers who will display them in their facilities and assume the responsibility, and unfortunately, sometimes the consequences.
We try to remind the kids who say "I plan to be careful" that most fatal bites were not a result of carelessness, and that if they are absolutely sure that they want to work with venomous snakes, to do good in school and pursue a medical career in toxicology. Find a mentor, a good one, and try to graduate at the top of your class.

[Gregg M]

Vanan,
I kind of understant what you are trying to say, but, like you said most snakes do not do well after and more than a few die...... Where is the good reasoning in that??? Not to mention the pain the snake must suffer after the operation with no type of pain relief offered like you and I would get after something like that.... And the majority of people who get venomoids are people that are unskilled and want to have a "pet" gaboon viper or cobra...... This is where the trouble starts..... Sometimes the snake you thought was venomoid is actually hot or may become hot again...... Now you can just imagine what will follow...... If you are going to take all the precausions that you would take if it were hot, why get a venomoid???? To reduce the risk of a bite???? That is what they make handling tools and lockable cages for...... I have a close friend that has a venomoid king cobra...... It was taken from a person that had no business keeping such an awsome animal....... The person it was taken from was not permitted and the snake was just about dead because it was not being cared for the way it should be because the keeper was unskilled and had no idea how to keep such an animal..... So not only are the operations killing these beautiful snakes but so are the meatheads buying them...... I would not turn one down if it were offered to me for nothing but I will also never be supporter of this butchering and I would also never resell it as a venomoid....... All animale need to be cared for and treated with respect no matter how deformed and ripped up it is But it should never happen in the first place......

[BurmBaroness]

I totally agree, and beilieve that BW's quote says it all.....If you have to get a venomoid, don't get a hot, get a cornsnake. It's out and out cruelty to animals to devenom a snake, as well as unhealthy, unethical, and it's done for $$ or "coolness". I would like to see that list of boycotted breeders, BW. I don't want to support them either.

[Ed_r]

Couldn't agree more!!!. I too would Love to see a list of void producers and those supporting it. I don't support too many stores or breeders, usually everything i get is private party. Would be good info though.

Vanan, I too understand what your trying to say, but even though you don't see it your still looking at this as"I want a cobra, but I don't want to die" That is totally understandable. Believe me I would Love to go in my basement everyday and see an incredible Black Pakistan Cobra looking at me every day. But I have small kids and I also have to be around for them to grow up. Some realities outwiegh the risk. I've only been bitten a couple times in all my time keeping herps, but if those hapen to have been hots I wouldn't be here. And to alter an animal for MY gratification is wrong. I'm even against neutering a dog or cat. if you can't take the animal as it is, then you probably shouldnt have it.

[BWSmith]

correct me if I am wrong, but is venom not only intended to immobilize the prey, but to break down tissue for digestion?)
The jury is still out on this matter when it comes to voids. YES. Most venoms are designed to not only keill a prey item, but to begin the digestion process. But, by the same token, I feed F/T rodents to 90% of my hots. Most just crawl over and eat it, no envenomation, or so it looks to me. So you can see how this is a grey area.

I happen to be at a buddy's shop when a mother brought in her 12 year old son's pet copperhead. "He said it had it's poison thingies removed, can you check it for me?" Quick pin and fangs over the edge of a glass and venom sprayed everywhere. Needless to say, the copper stayed with us. Just a random story.

Another reason I hear for keeping a void is education. I personally do not see this as viable. Even if the circumstances arrise that ane ducational show needs a cobra, mamba, or exotic viper, why in the world would you ever take it out of the cage? I do alot of venomous education, got 9 in 3 days later this month, and I have only had one program where the snakes came out. And that one was in an ampetheater type setting.

[ETET]

I saw that in the OTHER site that someone want a venomoid gaboon. I think this kind of people totally don't know what they are doing, also those people selling void do the same thing. I think people get use to alter any animal for their own desire, they never respect the integrity of nature. This is very bad for the animals and also for our herp keeper. Just recently, a guy without any hot experience got a void egyptian cobra, he kept saying how easy to handle this snake and asked my friend to get one too. They think they have a gun without bullets! Is that you BW mentioned before?: People want void like a porsche without an engine, I think these people like start learn driving, but they don't know they are driving a corolla with an engine of a twin-turbo porsche. Accident just wait to happen!

The demand for void for education/zoo is still not justified. If the animal is altered, the animal is not as nature as it use to be, what kind of info people can leran from a mutiliated animal? If a snake can devenom, then all lions, tigers....should all declawed.

In fact this void business will still exist as long as there is a demand. Let a list of those dealers go public is a good idea, also education of public is very important. I think in recent years hot reptile business grow much much beyond people's knowledge and education. Many exotic species around the world is available now but sometimes people don't know much or how deadly are them before they buy them. Just another thought...



ETET

[BWSmith]

Actually i said a Venomoid is like a Proshe with no Engine, serves no purpose and just to show off ;) I like analogies.

[BAZ]

Here is my take on venomoids. I understand this is a hot topic with herpers and quite controversial.

I will just try and tell it like I see it. This is just my opinion and hopefully I don't offend anyone.

Why do we keep reptiles or any other "non-domesticated" animals? For our own enjoyment really. 99% of us don't contribute to any kind of scientific knowledge pool by keeping monitor lizards, snakes or crocodilians. Quite simply we want to keep an amazing animal in our home so we can enjoy it whenever we want.

I can completely understand why a person would want to keep a venomoid snake. Some of the most beautiful snakes in the world are venomous. I can understand a person wanting to possess something that is beautiful but wanting to take away any risk of death to family members. Would you feel more comfortable knowing your neighbour had a regular venomous cobra or a venomoid cobra? Snakes escape and accidents do happen even to the best of us.

At the same time I don't think many people know how to do the surgery to make a snake a venomoid properly and people end up mutilating and killing the animal. Some people have had venomoids and have kept them well... the surgery went well and the animal ate fine and lived a pretty decent life. Some people have had animals mutilated and killed by the surgery.

Its all very well to say we should not mess with nature but we do and we always try to control it to some extent. If we were strict on not messing around with nature we would leave wild animals in the wild and that includes our leopard geckos and ball pythons. We would not get our dogs and cats spayed and neutered. We would not keep birds in cages. We would not crop the tails of particular breeds of dogs... damn some of us even get circumcized (people not animals ;))

The fact is that we use nature to benefit ourselves in some way or another.

I don't think comparing a venomoid to a Porshe without a engine is justified. Its just not the same thing and the analogy just does not work. I can understand comparing it to keeping a gun without bullets... some people collect antique guns for display purposes. Would't feel to safe being in a house where the gun jumps off its wall stand and randomly fires itself at the inhabitants of the house! lol.

In the wild the snake needs it's venom to hunt it's prey and to protect itself from harm. In captivity it does not need to hunt and does not need to protect itself... you as a owner keep it fed and protected. It may strike in self defence but how does it know it does not have any venom? I understand there may be a issue concerning digestion of food relating to the venom so I hope someone can clear up if it makes that much of a difference. I would think it just takes longer to digest food with no venom just like in a constrictor.

I don't know if I am completely for or against keeping venomoids. I understand why people want to keep them and I also understand why some people are against it if you take some of the horror stories into account.

[ballpython5000]

snakemann you really need to know what you are talking about before you start badgering me about venomoids. i simply said that in 5 or so years i intend to get a hot. either a venomoid so i can get used to the species and how to care for it. with a venomoid i would have no consequence after being bit. and by the time i get a vonomous i will have all the practice needed for that species and can almost totally avoid and incidents. i think that seems very reasonable.
i did however also say that i may just get an eyelash viper or copperhead so i can reduce the risk of being killed if i were to have a flaw somewhere.
i am in no way saying im ready for hots as of now but i certainly do have them built into my herping plan. and im not saying im gonna go get a perfectly fine and wonderful venomous snake and have it butchered for my personal liking. i intend to buy one that was already fixed. i just could not have one ruined by me.
but i guess snakemann knows enough about venomous herps to bugg me over and over about it. it was an idea snakemann. my other idea is to get an eyelash or copperhead. i compare this scenario to the time that you posted on the egg-eater forum when you had no frikkin idea what you were saying. so id appreciate if you would not critisize my ideas so badly. its an idea, i like to consider my options snakemann. so please unless you know what you are rambling about, dont try to badger me about a simple little idea.
for those of you who seem a bit confused about this, you had to be in the chat to understand. this message is to snakemann refering that chat.

[BWSmith]

THen it probably should have stayed in chat or PM. The post did not refer to you by name so I don't see why you feel it necessary to defend yourself when no accusations were specifically made.

[Vanan]

I hear ya BW and the rest of you with valid points. I guess, there's a very very VERY small minority which can justify keeping a venomoid, with good reasons. But for the rest of the keepers, it's better to go without it.

I for one reason, am very critical and like to know as much as I can of both sides of the story. This has been a very helpful thread! Thanks guys!

[snakemann87]

i am not gonna start a big fight bp5000, if you were to have listened to me, i had no problem with you getting a venom, i can care less. But i was saying do not get a venomoid, ecspecially for practice. As many already said, if you can't handle a venom right away, get a corn.

I have seen many hots at herp shows, mainly spitters, gaboons, rhinos, and rattlers. All were labled as venomous, can i identify a venomoid by appearance BW? I would think due to the removal of the venom glands.

[Matt]

you can tell on most, but some have implants to replace the glands....quite sad really!
we want the snake to LOOK normal, but not to really BE normal!

[snakemann87]

THEY PUT IN FAKE GLANDS!!!!!!!!! God, some people out there amaze me. I don't understand how they say they love these animals so much, but then they go and do something like make it a venomoid.

[Xetox]

Its a big issue and I am not truefully sure how I feel about the matter.....I dont think I have spent the time and done enough research to say ether way.......I see both sides, I mean the people against I see and understand why. But also Baz makes a good point to. I have worked with snakes since I was about 6 - 27 now - and I know I am still not ready for a hot....

I has always been in my mind but never felt I was ready. But I would prolly start with a pygmy :)

[BoidKeeper]

I have to say guys that I am a shamed to say that I was totally ignorant to this whole issue. Because I have no interest in owning a hot or a giant I almost never read the post on those forums and apparently I’ve been missing out on some important issues in herpetoculture. This is not like “fixing” a cat or a dog to help cut down on the numbers of unwanted pets. I think anyone that would want a venomoid wants a snake (any snake that is) for the wrong reason. This is not like a dwarf retic, this is un-natural, unnecessary surgery conducted only so some body can feel tuff owning what should be dangerous. It’s like playing Russian rullet with blanks.
My two cents,
Trevor

[ReptiZone]

I say there is enuf venamoids out there that even if someone wanted to practice with one they would not have to buy one. Just make a few conections like some one said if it was droped off at there door they would not turn it away. I am shour there is some verry respected hot handeler that have a few venamoids not because they baught it but because it was given. So find one some where els and practice then get what is recomended to start off with. I know nothing about hots and not afraid to say it when I want to get one I will be asking around to see if there is a good handeler that could walk me throw it for a week or so and i will make a dicission from there any way I need some sleep good night

[BAZ]

Why would anyone (any sane person) want to play Russian Roulette in the first place? I don't think that by keeping venomous snakes the analogy of it being like a game of Russian Roulette should ever come into play.

I think a person who keeps venemous snakes keeps them for the same reason a person keeps retics or anacondas. Who knows.. maybe deep down inside some of us do feel "tough" to some degree. Maybe deep down inside it does have something to do with image. I know how it feels to have a 18ft snake around my shoulders, or a cougar in my arms, a hawk on my fist, a alligator over my shoulder... it feels bloody good to spend time with these animals :) It's a rush to interact with powerful animals. But maybe image has a part to play in why we are attracted to these animals too. Why would I rather keep a big mastif or great dane and not a poodle?

I love king cobras. I would love to share the same room as one and be in it's presence. But at the same time I don't want to die. So I understand a person who wants to keep a king cobra, be able to interact with it to some extent without the risk of being killed.

When it comes down to it is it really all about the animals or all about us? I think if it was really all about the animals we would not remove them from the wild and put them in cages in our home no matter if it is a lizard, a snake or a parrot. We keep animals for our enjoyment and if we do that we have a responsibility towards the animal to give it the best care possible in a captive environment. I think people who keep venomoids want to enjoy the presence of the animal but just don't want to risk their life or their family's life. You can't blame them for that. I personally feel that a person who keeps a venemoid is being more careful with the welfare of their family and neighbours than a person keeping a deadly snake that could potentially kill someone.

Wow this venomoid issue is like the abortion issue for herpers! 2 sides very strongly opposed to the others view.

Blimey.. I'm rambling on a bit here. I better get to bed soon. :)

[Gregg M]

BAZ,
You do bring up some honest points and you my friend sound like a responsable keeper, but on the otherhand I dont really get why you say we all keep these animals for the rush or the image...... The only people that know about what I keep are the people on this forum and a few close friends that keep similar animals....... The general public does not know I keep these animals....... The one thing I noticed is that the majority of responsable hot keepers do not let many people know they are hot keepers...... I myself do this for many reasons and the image is not one of them...... I am way into the conservation of these animals...... Not that I am going to go into Africa and release the neonates into the wild but by producing beautiful captive bred babies and selling them for rather low prices It kind of takes the need away for imports...... If you were in the market for a gaboon viper would you buy a stressedut, wormed up, parasite filled import for 150 to 200 dollars or a captive bred stress free baby for 75 dollars??? Most of what my snakes produce are sold before they are born..... And the ones I dont sell either stay with me or donated to zoos or other breeding projects....... But getting back to the point, venomoids are no good for us, the snake, or our hobby in general and really have no place here in our hobby...... I would never kiss a gaboon on the lips but I love them to death and would never go out of my way and spend money to have one altered or as I like to put it, butchered, so I can feel safe....... I have lots of confidence in my skills and I feel safe enough...... If I didnt I would not keep them.....

[Ed_r]

Baz one thing i think your forgetting. These people that are going to buy a void, will more than likely buy a few. Some of them are going to get pairs of voids. They will breed. and guess what? The young are NOT voids. As we all know neonates are allot more prone to striking than adults. Also in many of species, the venom is a lot more toxic in the babies, than the adults ever wish they could be.

I think I need to correct BWSmith's analogy. A void is like one of those Porsche Kit cars that have the VW beetle engines. A TOTAL WANNABE!
There is NO place for voids in the world. Yes we keep snakes for our enjoyment but I don't have to alter my Boas. If you want to keep a hot, go through the proper channels to get educated on keeping them properly! It will cost someone allot less money, and they will get a much richer experience KNOWING their snake. And ANYONE that is going to buy a void , you know for a fact is going to have it outside showing it off to the whole neighborhood, just like the guy with the kit car. Most people that have families and children, should not need to feel macho anymore. You already impressed your spouse and the kids hopefully adore you because you are the father. If not your doing something drasticly wrong.
I keep snakes because I enjoy them, but mostly so I can educate my kids that they are not the evil devils servants that most would lead them to believe.

[BILLP]

I don't know if any one has already posted this link but on venomousreptles there is a long article on this very topic. He is the link www.venomousreptiles.com/articles/55. Also don't get me wrong I do not support venomoids in any way. But venomoids are another way that man has changed nature for his own enjoyment. Like declawing a cat or dehorning a bull. Also we say that we don't alter our snakes to keep them. But there are all kinds of albinos, color phases and other odd snakes out there. These are not an attempt to perserve nature because these snakes would not exist with out or manipulation. I am just bring up some point I do not support these Venomoids at all.

[BWSmith]

First of all I am thrilled that we have proponants from each side of the fence. And I am very happy that everything has stayed so civil.

I know how it feels to have a 18ft snake around my shoulders, or a cougar in my arms, a hawk on my fist, a alligator over my shoulder... it feels bloody good to spend time with these animals
All but the Hawk I can relate to. I feel honored to be able to interact with such magnifiscent creatures. And i find it insulting to nature to remove the one thing that made them what they were. In my opinion once a cobra is voided, it is no longer a cobra because the major defining charactaristic has been removed.

It's a rush to interact with powerful animals.
Yes it is. This I cannot deny. But it is a unique rush, unlike any other. For me it is like being overwhelmed with awe. And this is just entensified by the adrenaline (which i think definately helps in handling dangerous animals). If there is no rush, then one of two things is probably happening: You have lost the respect for the potential of the animal or you just really don't care. Either is dangerous. But what rush could one get from having a void?

When I look at a venomoid, in the back of my mind I see an old, decreped, and toothless Lion. Still the same species, but a pitiful shadow of its former glory, power, and majesty.


The one thing I noticed is that the majority of responsable hot keepers do not let many people know they are hot keepers
This is true. Most hot keepers are very reclusive and low profile. Flip the coin to void keepers. Now I admit that i have only known a few, but they ALL would walk around with a void in the most innapropriate places. Anywhere there was people, they took them. One had a void Canebrake Rattlesnake he would wear around neck while he was working at a PetCo. Now while the statement of most hot keepers being reclusive is true, I am very much the opposite. Given the work with Dept of Natural Resourcces, displays and various educational programs, I am actually a very high profile keeper. But not in my neighborhood ;)

Since I am all over the place this morning i will continue :)

Some of them are going to get pairs of voids. They will breed. and guess what? The young are NOT voids.
LOL, you would be AMAZED how many people think that they babies will be voids and I have even heard Void dealers perpetuate this falsehood! Nothing is Het for Venomoid!

Relating to this, let's play the new game "WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT?!" Our first contestant this morning, a venomoid het for albino monocled cobra that was advertised on KS classifieds..... everyone say it together now, "What the hell is the point?"

OK, I am going to leave this as it is right now until I get a couple cups of coffee in me. ;)

[BWSmith]

Also we say that we don't alter our snakes to keep them. But there are all kinds of albinos, color phases and other odd snakes out there. These are not an attempt to perserve nature because these snakes would not exist with out or manipulation.
Well, i am a purist. I dont like any of that morph crap either. :D

I remember when that article came in my newsletter, i thought they accidently sent me 3! ;) Very long, very good read. Very even handed.

[Matt]

Some of them are going to get pairs of voids. They will breed. and guess what? The young are NOT voids.

:D LOL, I have never heard that one.....thats absolutely ridiculous.
Like two people with one ARM missing will have all one armed kids!

[BAZ]

Howdy! Well I guess what I mean by "image" to do with how one feels about oneself.I just throwing ideas out here. I'm not saying images the only reason a person keeps a particular animal but I think it may be one of the reasons (it may be a very small part of the whole equation). Depends on the individual I suppose.

I have not made up my mind on my stand on venomoids just yet. I will have to do my research. I can see it from both sides.

At the moment I have nothing against a well done surgery on a venemous snake to make it a venomoid. Maybe new procedures have to be found to make this surgery less mutilating in some cases.

Right now I don't see anything wrong with keeping a venomoid that is a healthy and happy animal which will lead a long and good life i the hands of a responsible owner.

I think maybe one reason I am leaning towards venomoids is because there are so many irrisponsible keepers out there who keep deadly animals. I would feel safer having a irrisponsible venomoid keeper next door than a irrisponsible fully loaded king cobra keeper.

This forum is really good... I have really learnt a lot from the posts here.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Some excellent points raised in yet another venomoid debate...

In particular, to capture a couple of things from both sides:

BAZ, I can agree with a lot of what you are saying, but at the same time, I like two statements from the last couple of posts. GreggM "[venomoids] have no place here in our hobby" and EdR "They will breed. and guess what? The young are NOT voids"

And now, for anyone who cares, my thoughts on the topic:

Ductectotomies (where the venom ducts are severed) should never be performed. This avoids the 'it will grow back' issue.

Where venomoid surgery is warranted, only adenectomies should be performed, and implants should be used. Surgeries should only be performed by a licensed, and experienced, veterinarian. This avoid the whole butchering issue, at least to the point of any operation. Those who are of the opinion that we should neuter cats will still take issue here, but not me. This also imparts a large cost to the operation, which should deter the average wannabe cobra owner.

Venomoids should never be sold. For any reason.

Now, as to when venomoids are warranted, my answer would be rarely.

I agree that they have no place in the hobby. Wanting a harmless version of a king cobra should not be sufficient justification, plus it can cause all kinds of problems with neighbours, authorities, etc. Of course, I feel this way about venomous animals as well- I don't think that they are suitable for people to keep as pets. The only justification for keeping them is for bona fide scientific, conservation, or educational purposes. By this, I don't mean taking them into your child's school once a year. However, 9 programs in 3 days (assuming this isn't a spectacular exception) would certainly qualify as bona fide education. Generally, I'm talking about people who do actual education on a very regular and frequent basis. Most scientific and conservation purposes are not served by animals residing in people's homes (yes, I know there are exceptions), so I won't focus on these. Bona fide educational purposes usually would involve species that are found in the area. I don't see a huge benefit to spitting cobra education here in Ontario (not enough to justify private ownership of one!).

Also, I would support a permit system for these animals (and others, as stated in the giant python forum).

So, in my world, where venomous would be appropriate, venomoids might also be appropriate, if there was a particular need. Now proper handling techniques, equipment, caging, etc. are all essential, to say the least. However, mistakes can always be made, cages can be broken, vandals can break into a facility, etc. These examples would not preclude a person or facility's liability in the event of a bite. Therefore, I can see a justification for venomoid surgery for specimens used in this manner. This is not to say that I like it, or that I think it is a great idea, but I can see a real and valid justification, provided that the above criteria are followed.

A couple of questions I once asked on another forum, and got no useful replies- For those who do educational programs with venomous reptiles, do you have liability insurance? If so, would your premiums go down if you only used venomoid specimens If not, would you be more likely to be able to get coverage if you did not use specimens with venom?

My opinions only, fire away!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[BWSmith]

OK, well stated. And I will jump off topic for a moment and talk about venomous education.

I don't see a huge benefit to spitting cobra education here in Ontario
I agree. On the KS classifieds right now there is an advertisement for a Venomoid banded Krait. A friend emailed them asking "what is the point?". His reply was that he used them for educational programs in schools and could not bring in an actual hot. Ummmm, now is this so the kids in Florida can ID a Krait? I do not see much educational value in an exotic hot other than a serentarium or such in a very controlled environment. i also do not see the point of removing a hot from an enclosure during a school show.

As far as insurance. I am not insured yet. There is only one insurance company that will cover dangerous animals and the premiums run about 8 grand a year! I need liability insurance, but for the time being a contract releasing me of all liability written by the corporate lawyer for DuPont will have to do. But i would assume that with venomoids, the rates would be lower. Now due to the lack of insurance and simple safety, I do NO school programs with venomous. Generally it is an introduction to herps and several species are represented and general information is covered. Venomous shows are kept for those that need it most. I use secure, locked cages with vents on the back. Venomous shows are generally reserved for Wildlife Refuges, Nature Centers, Scouts, and pre-hospital medical personnel. Beginning March 14, I have 3 days of advanced programs, 3 two hour programs per day. That is alot. And I already have 3 nature centers lined up in the next few months. It is by no means full time. Probably an average of one full day per month. May not sound like alot, but it sure seems like it. :D But i do several shows with other keepers. These keepers may only do the 3 nature centers each year. But if it was not for private keepers like us, it would be a pretty boring Snake Day. ;) But I won't get into privaate keeping vens on this thread. That is a whole other ball of wax.

Surgeries should only be performed by a licensed, and experienced, veterinarian.
Problem is that I am unaware of a single liscenced vet that will perform such a surgury. So what are we left with? Basically, they are all "Hack Jobs".

I have not made up my mind on my stand on venomoids just yet. I will have to do my research. I can see it from both sides.
That is very good. It is an excellent way to come to a descision. I think for me, the majority of it is a Moral issue. And the sale of venomoids has been risen dramatically recently.

I think maybe one reason I am leaning towards venomoids is because there are so many irrisponsible keepers out there who keep deadly animals.
You are 100% correct. As with any animal, there are going to be a large number of irresponsible keepers. And with venomous, the concequences can be dire. But there are also alot of responsible keepers out there. No point here, just a statement ;)

I would feel safer having a irrisponsible venomoid keeper next door than a irrisponsible fully loaded king cobra keeper.
Well, let me put your mind at ease. It doesnt matter. To my knowledge, there has NEVER been as escaped venomous envenomate an innocent.

[The_Omen]

I am goint to start by answering a question that has popped up and not yet covered, my perspective on it.

From Baz- The question of knowing a neighbor had a void or a hot cobra.

I would rather know that my neighbor has a hot, unaltered snake.

Reason being, with an unaltered hot, the chances of irresponsibility are decreased (in some cases) and I would realize that there are proper tools (handling equipment) in the dwelling.
In the event of an escape, i would know for certain that the animal in question IS hot. Not the maybe that can occur with a void.( nature 'finding' the way, offspring from the snake(s) or what was sold as a void actually not being a void)

{side note: if the neighbor is irresponsible with an animal that he does know is hot, then Darwinism will eventually rid me of my not so bright neighbor.}

Getting a venomoid for practice is no way to get the experience with the hots either, since somewhere in the back of your mind, you would always have the notion 'If I get hit, it aint doing nothin!' which can cause people to become too relaxed around the snakes which, out of habit, would carry over into keeping hots. Humans are creatures of habit and bad habits are the hardest to break.

Better to be 100% attentive and into hots or 100% away from them than somewhat inattentive and careless.

As for permits, some locales do require permits for hots and exotics, while others do not.
I do believe that of the locales that require the hots permits, DO require the same permits etc. for voids as well, due to the offspring of voids being non-voids.

Offspring? from a lone female?
Stranger things happen in real life.
Many people buy animals at shows and are suprised with a clutch of eggs or the births, due to the animals being kept with opposite sex animals at the dealers place,or somewhere along the way, where, as one put it, nature finds a way.
Even if wild caught, during mating season, better chances of a clutch AND there have been many cases of retained sperm, which leads to a gravid situation sometimes over a year later.

[BAZ]

Wow this forum on venomoids is so much more civilized than the one of "the other" website! lol.. could it be because we are based in gentle Canada? :D

Jeff you made some really good points and I feel I agree with you.

[BWSmith]

I do believe that of the locales that require the hots permits, DO require the same permits etc. for voids as well, due to the offspring of voids being non-voids.
You are correct. Georgia is a prime example.

Offspring? from a lone female?
**points to PK**

somewhere in the back of your mind, you would always have the notion 'If I get hit, it aint doing nothin!'
Again you are correct. No matter how much you THINK you will treat it like a hot, you know that it is not. No I have thought of one instance where a void where may be feasible. Unfortunately the sircumstance does not exist. If a peson trained a great deal of people on a regular basis venomous handling and husbandry. The reason for this is the training of pinning and other VERY dangerous neccessities. And the only way it would be feasible is if the trainee DID NOT KNOW that it was a void. Then the respect would be there and it would be a great deal of pressure off the trainer. I have trained a few people in handling hots (carefully selected individuals). But not enough to warrent a void. When I train, pinning and tailing is demonstrated, but noone lays a hand on my hots but me.


Wow this forum on venomoids is so much more civilized than the one of "the other" website! lol.. could it be because we are based in gentle Canada?
Naahhh, It's just to damn cold up there for ya'll to argue too much ;)

And there are about 50 other forums. I assume "the other site" refers to KS. But i can never figure out the Cans anyway so I try not to assume too much :D

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hey BW- for what it's worth, I think you're doing some fabulous work, though I wasn't trying to elicit any sort of proof from you:-) (Hey, how do you guys do those graphic smileys, anyway?).

I agree with virtually everything that you said, except perhaps for an implication that snake day would be boring without venomous species. I think that there are so many great non-venomous snakes out there that many 'snake days' could be filled with them! However, 'snake days', in the appropriate setting (not just the average school program), should certainly include examples of venomous species that might be encountered in the area.

I am not aware of any vets who would do the surgery either, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. And a lack of vets to do it helps to support the stance that it is rarely justified and shouldn't be done very often.

Also, although I agree about the zero statistic for neighbour envenomations, that does not necessarily make the neighbours feel any better!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[BWSmith]

except perhaps for an implication that snake day would be boring without venomous species
Since they are at nature Centers, we always try to reperesent as many native snakes as possible. Especially around here, they have to know what a copperhead looks like. And put a Water Snake next to a cottonmouth so they can tellt he difference! ;)

how do you guys do those graphic smileys
You have to go to "POST REPLY" not just the quick reply. And off to the left is a box that you can just click on a smiley. o>

[Ed_r]

This is very impressive I must say. I have seen many education threads turn into a flame war. Can say it's been a very long time since I've seen an attempted flame war turn into a HIGHLY educational debate.
Didn't mean Greg. Never tick off a guy that keeps Gabbies, or one with a monster killer cottonmouth.lol

[Matt]

LOL

[Gregg M]

LOL Ed r........ Actually I had an idea that this would not turn ugly here otherwise I would not have posted...... Everyone I have come in contact with in this forum seem to have their heads together....... Open mindedness and understanding is what makes this forum better than the rest...... We all have our own opinions and nobody should be flammed for that....... Everyone here does a great job posting and dont forget about the moderators of this site...... They do a great job taking care of this great site....... Now enough *** kissing......

[Jeremy]

Hey Ed R,
Just wanted to clarifiy one thing which may or may not have been mentioned already. Neonates of some venomous sp may proove to have slightly more toxic venom then the adults but this is only speculation at this point. I do not belive any studies have been conducted to proove it one way or the other. However, even if the venom is more toxic, its not that much more and trhere is no venomous sp on the planet that would have neonates be more deadly then the adults. Remember quanity is the main kill you factor and no neonate can produce as much venom as an adult. For instance, the Bushmaster has about the lowest LD50 ranking outa of every venomous snake tested(LD50s are done on mice to get an idea of venom potentancy) yet it has one of the highest mortality rates in humans of any snake living today! The reason being is that they can inject up 800mgs in a single bite!!!! Give me a coralsnake bite, which is 100s of times more toxic in LD50 anyday over a bushmasters!!!!!!! Ill take that measly 7 mgs over 800 anyday of the week!

Welp, not bashing or trying to be a smart arse, just trying to set the facts strait. Alot of people seem to belive babies are alot more dangerous and this really just is not the case.

As for the venomoid debate, I personaly belive venomous keeping to be the pinacle of Herpeculture and should be left to those who have studied and put in the time to properly educate themselfs on how to deal with these fascinateing yet horribley deadly creatures. Getting a venomoid is takeing the easy route and there should be no easy route when dealing with a venomous sp.

Also, to the people who try to argue that they wana get a venomoid to teach them how to deal with venomous, well, that BS. There is no way in hell you are going to treatr a venomoid like a venomous. They have no venom! Thats just like saying om getting a blk racer to teach me how to deal with a mamba. Nope. Just dosent work that way because a blk racer anit got no venom!!!!!!

The best venomous training one can get is threw an already established venomus keeper. Find someone to shjow you the ropes and proceed from there.

My 2 pennies,
Jeremy

[Matt]

The best venomous training one can get is threw an already established venomus keeper. Find someone to show you the ropes and proceed from there

absolutely, this is the best way to go about it, not trying to find great look alike or act alike species!!!!

[Gregg M]

Hey is this a reacord for the most replies on one thread in this forum????? And if it is do I get a prize????

[Matt]

i dont have any records, but i would defintely say it is...this forum usually inst that busy!
congrats gregg, seems like you started a good one!!!

[GECKOMAN]

I AGREE WITH YOU AND I DONT EVEN OWN A "HOT" HERP I THINK THAT MAKING VEVAMOIDS IS REDICULUS IT IS ALSO UNATERALL AND PROBABLY A HUGE TRAUMA FOR THE ANIMAL IF I EVER DO GET A VENOMOUS REPTILE IT WILL NOT BE A VENAMOID!

[crimsonking]

BW and all, I also had a guy (old enough to know better) bring me an EDB once saying he had his "fangs removed". He was free-handling his 4' snake when I told him that they grow back. After a quick check--sure enough they were there and he was "full". While this is in no way like surgically removing the glands, it does illustrate the danger in thinking a normally hot snake can be made safe. He was just very lucky that this particular animal was docile enough to be handled.Remember there are still a hundred wives' tales about snakes alive and well in the 21st century. EDUCATION,EDUCATION,EDUCATION. This whole thing of keeping altered snakes opens a Pandora's Box really. I mean if we look at the whole picture, is keeping ANY animal in a cage more "natural" (than altering an animal)? Lest we be hypocritical. These things may well be the end of the hobby as we know it. A few envenomations here and there from supposedly safe animals and local govt.s will put an end to keeping any "safe" snake---for "safety's sake" !! You can bet the HSUS is lobbying while we sleep.
:Mark

[Simon R. Sansom]

Hi,
I do not keep venomous snakes, so perhaps I don't quite understand all the furor over the subject of venomoids. It seems to me as though some folks just get way too "hot" (excuse the pun) over the issue.
Let's put it into perspective...
Mankind has been modifying animals for it's benefit for thousands of years.
We de-horn cattle, we remove the tusks from boars, we de-claw cats, we de-bark dogs (yes, we actually sever their vocal chords so that they can't bark!), we crop the ears of certain types of dogs, we dock their tails, we neuter and spay, we clip the wings of fowl, etc, etc.
Is it not possible that, on a subconscious level, the folks who are so vocal against venomoids may actually be upset that the procedure makes their hobby less "exclusive", less "manly"? Now "anyone" can own a Green Mamba; know what I mean?

I don't mean to upset anyone with my opinion, but it just seems as though some of these discussions get ridiculously out of hand (this thread has been one of the most civil I've read, though).

Cheers!

Simon

[Mustangrde1]

Dehorning cattle , cropping dogs ears etc etc do not affect anything more than the looks of the animal. Now taking away the venom of a snake does take away its looks yes, but also disrupts its digestive procedure, and the surgery alone can kill the animal let alone if not done properly the nice harmless snake you now own will sure enough kill you dead. VENOMOIDS ARE WRONG , for the snake , wrong for the keeper and damn sure wrong for anyone to preform a operation that in itself can be fatal to a animal just so some person can be a big show off to their friends.

[BWSmith]

We de-horn cattle, we remove the tusks from boars, we de-claw cats, we de-bark dogs (yes, we actually sever their vocal chords so that they can't bark!), we crop the ears of certain types of dogs, we dock their tails, we neuter and spay, we clip the wings of fowl, etc, etc.

just for the record. i do not believe in any of those procedures either.

[Atheris Hispida]

i agree that a venomoid is something that u shoudn't have i think its a really dumb thing to do...and for the whole "well i wanna practice with them so that if i do get bit it wont have ne venom" I say what u should do is study and hold mildly venoms snakes so that if u get bit you wont die but hey u learned a lesson..Then when you hold a highly venoms snake you will know what not to do to make that venoms snake bite you.

[BWSmith]

Saw this topic come up recently, thought I would bump it ;)

[SCReptiles]

Vemonoids are driven by economics, pure and simple. As long as there is a market, people will continue to supply them. Think about it from a business standpoint, if you take a basic $300 king cobra and venomoid it, you then have a $1200 king cobra. Where else in business can you make a $300 investment, add $100 to it and get a return of $1200. That is an investment return of 3:1 on your money. If those numbers hold, I expect the venomoid market to expand rather then contract. I live in the southeastern US and I feel this is the Mecca of venomous herpiculture. It started here with legends like Haast and then grew out into the rest of the country. It’s obvious that venomoids are widely hated here, but that isn’t the case in the rest of the nation. Sure there are some haters in other regions, but it more widely accepted there. Just like the music industry hates MP3’s but has except the technology is here to stay, the venomous community will have to except that venomoids are here to stay. My point in that is big music would rather there be no MP3’s, but there are. So they except that and use them as best they can to their benefit. We will need to learn to do the same thing. Once the snake is cut, there is no reversal. Once the owner is tired of the shock value of venomoid, what then? At that point we need to try to use them as best we can. I think nature centers are the best places for discarded venomoids. In many cases, these centers have venomous on display, or would like to have them, but lack the personal to deal with them. I think venomoids fit the bill perfectly.

[BWSmith]

The world is full of situations, actions, and products that people dislike or hate. This does not mean that they do not voice their disapproval,contempt or try to change these things. If there is something out there that you strongly despise and feel is wrong, then it is your right to fight. If everytime something wrong comes along and everyone just says "Well, it's here, oh well", then things will never change. For each person we can convince that, if nothing else, venomoids are morally wrong, it is a small victory. Every dealer we can convince not to sell venomoids, it is a slightly greater victory. The war over venomoids has had its share of victories and losses. So be it. I, for one, will continue to fight and debate and discourage to my last breath.

[SCReptiles]

Point taken, I was not implying those who are opposed should not voice that. I am just saying technology tends to progress. Once the technology is here, reversing the tend is like turning the tide, it’s near impossible. Look at the great lengths the record industry went to battling MP3’s. How many millions have they spent? They have fought court battles and even won most of them, still the MP3 continues to grow. Why, again economics. I do not take the same position as BW or UnBoaievable. I have not kept or sold any venomoids thus far, but I am not offended by them. BW, you are the most vocal venomoid hater out there, what would you suggest be done with the ones already in existence? And if you guys want to stop them, you will have to find a way to take the profit out of them. We live in the most capitalistic society the world has ever known, if there is money to be made, someone is willing to make it.

[BWSmith]

You are correct that economics is a major factor.

what would you suggest be done with the ones already in existence?
Idealy the current ones would be in good caring homes or in educational institutions. As long as they are taken care of. There is not much that can be done about existing voids. What is done is done. My major concern is those that contunue to produce them and distribute them.

BW, you are the most vocal venomoid hater out there
THANKS! :D :D I take hots very seriously and passionately. The world needs a few idealists ;)

[Gregg M]

Well the ones already made should be taken care of just like any living animal in captivity....... But only with as much respect as you would give a hot snake....... Like I have said before, I would not turn one down if it was given to me or if it was a void in need of proper care...... But I would never support these butchers or this horrendous practice by buying these animals from a dealer....... I have spent years sharpening my skills and doing research on these awsome creatures....... I do not want everything I have worked so hard for to be messed up by some hack that wants to make a quick buck or the spineless people that want a pet gaboon viper that cant hurt them....... And most importantly I feel deaply for the snakes that are hacked up....... It should be made illegal to do these operations......... And anyone caught selling should be put in jail for animal cruelty....... There is no place in this hobby for this nonsence.......

[SCReptiles]

Gregg M & BW, doesn’t seem we are too far apart in our opinions for the existing voids. There are places, natures centers being the first to come to mind, that could benefit when this fad has run its course. Either of you have any ideas on addressing the profit issue? I am certain that if a void king cobra sold for the same price as a fully loaded, you would see very few produced. Eric Rudolph had a great idea. He could reason with the abortion butchers, so he addressed the economic side. If he killed enough butchering doctors, then the cost of the procedure would rise to the point that few people would want them. His theory was sound, but once put into practice it landed him in jail. I am not suggesting you bomb Richie, its just food for thought. =)

[BWSmith]

The only real way to effect the profit area is to lessent hte supply to voiders. And this, I am afraid is an unreal request. Most of these animals are imports, and most are bought right fro the importers. Everyone wants to make a sale. I have seen very immoral sales by large hot dealers. But unless voiders cannot get supply, then it liekly will remain. But it would be near impossible to stopt he flow of animals to them.

I like the idea of it being just a fad, I truly hope this is the case. One day in the future, I would love to think back about the days when venomoids existed :)

[Snake Chick]

I am certainly not one who I would say "knows what he is talking about" but I have something to say anyway...so there...hehe.
First of all, I do NOT agree with doing this to these beautiful creatures. I LOVE snakes of all kinds and always have since I was about 6 yr old. I love going to the zoos and the reptile part was a big favorite. I have held some really huge snakes that made me look like a toy next to them and loved them too. However, as much as I love to look at the venomous ones, I won't own one at this stage in my life until at least my children are grown and I am much more experienced. Doing this to them is like de-clawing cats in my mind which I've always hated and found cruel and insane and I know this procedure is even more awful to the snake.
Second of all, I can sympathize with you about wanting one without as much risk, however...just because you don't have it done yourself doesn't make it any better! If we as a snake lovers keep buying these snakes...they will keep doing it! If we won't buy them any more, they will stop! Supply and demand ya know? Now, as Gregg said earlier, if someone gives you one because they don't want it or it is a rescue...that would be different. But to go out and buy one is to support the vendor of this atrocity!

just my two cents for what it is worth!

SnakeChick

Originally posted by ballpython5000
im not saying im gonna go get a perfectly fine and wonderful venomous snake and have it butchered for my personal liking. i intend to buy one that was already fixed. i just could not have one ruined by me.

[Gregg M]

Hey Snake Chick, looks like are fitting in just perfectly here......:D

[Snake Chick]

Awww thanks Greg!

Originally posted by Gregg M
Hey Snake Chick, looks like are fitting in just perfectly here......:D

[Mr.Lizard]

I must say I understand the pros for voids but I disagree with voiding. I think it's like I've seen again and again on this thread
it's a way of owning a dangerous and impressive animal while avoiding the responsibilities that go along with owning a hot.
Do these people even take the precautions they would if they owned a "truly"hot snake? Are they as cautious about avoiding a hit and do they keep anti-venin on hand in case they do take a hit? I was horrified to hear of the 12 yo who brought in his voided copperhead to be tested and was in fact hot again! Would these people have been as prepared to respond to a bite as would someone with a known hot? I doubt it.
Too many times I've observed similar mentality regarding reptiles that weren't "hot" but were definitely dangerous.
The storekeeper will advise the customer of the animal's temperament and potential for great size and the customer who really didn't know more about the animal than he was just told will become eager with the anticipation of owning this animal whether it be a retic,Nile,'conda or even a fierce tegu!
If you cannot provide an animal with the very best care you can because you're simply more interested in the animal's ability to intimidate and impress than because of any actual respect and fascination you have for the animal then you have no business owning such a creature. More power to the responsible hot and/or dangerous herp keeper.

[Mustangrde1]

thought i would just put this one back up top so questions can stay here and the answers hopefully

[C_Ellenzweig]

I was under the impression that everyone here keeps herp because they have a love for them. After reading this thread, I'm not so sure of that. How can you possibly justify putting an animal through a painful and stressfull surgury, just so someone can keep it captive without having to take on the associated responsibility?

I know that somebody will come back and say "If you really loved animals, you would want them to be in nature." Realistically, none of my animals would survive in nature. They are all captive bred and are the result of several generations of captive breeding. Imagine a super hypo-tang leo in the wild. It would scream "eat me!" Like myself, most herp keepers do not support removing animals from the wild if there is a captive bred alternative.


Most of the reptiles in the pet trade are pets - domesticated animals. However, there will always be animals that cannot be domesticated. Hot snakes fall into this category. Removing venom glands is a poor (and in my mind, pathetic) attempt to domesticate an animals that cannot be domesticated. Hot snake keepers keep wild animals, not pets. Keeping a wild animal requires education and experience. Surgery is NOT a substitution to either. If you have invested your time to gain the required experience and knowledge, you are likely a snake lover and against venomoids.

Just my opinion...
Colin

[TheRedDragon]

I'm with everyone here when I say that creating a venomoid is one of the cruelest things to do to to a hot. If you want a hot, then prepare to educate yourself thouroughly on the animal; its preferred environment, behaviours, proper care, venom type and side effects, everything. If you are not prepared to take care of such a high maintenance animal, then get a corn snake.

Granted, if I was offered a venomoid, I would take it in, but, I sure as hell wouldn't do that to a hot in the first place. Those who support venomoids may as well pull the wings off of a butterfly so that it can't fly away from them. :mad:

[C_Ellenzweig]

I have to disagree there. I completely support the keeping of wingless butterflies! I have mine in a cage beside my legless dog's bed and my wingless bird's cage

[Mustangrde1]

Oh OOOOO not the v word again!!!!!!! Brian get coffee ready

[C_Ellenzweig]

LOL!

[TheRedDragon]

Originally posted by C_Ellenzweig
I have to disagree there. I completely support the keeping of wingless butterflies! I have mine in a cage beside my legless dog's bed and my wingless bird's cage


*LOL* Oh dear I think I'll have to hang you by your underwear on a flag pole for such inhumanity. :p

[C_Ellenzweig]

*LOL* Oh dear I think I'll have to hang you by your underwear on a flag pole for such inhumanity

That doesn't sound too enjoyable!

[C_Ellenzweig]

Although... I weigh about 200 lbs... If you think you can get me up there, you're welcome to give it a shot.

[TheRedDragon]

You're on bud. :D

[C_Ellenzweig]

Ok, but I pick the pole!

[TheRedDragon]

That's only fair since I may need a new back after this. *L*

[C_Ellenzweig]

Wow... this is the epitome of "off topic" LoL!

[chas*e]

I agree totally with the general anti-venomoid opinions expressed here. There is an issue of regeneration of the venom glands. The glands are surgically removed and the space filled with Silicon, if I am not mistaken, and this procedure has a tendency to fail after time. The big issue is that the venomoid keeper must regularly check with live feeders that there is not a regenerated venom load. Most venomoid keepers are not stupid enough to take a bite from a venomoid anyways, most fangs give a deep wound, Gaboon viper for instance; therefore they would always be on edge never knowing, "Is this the bite that proves the gland is back"... How tragic for the snake and the keeper.

[Dom]

Alright . .After reading 70 Posts in a row .. here is my though ..

First .. I have worked with venemous .. no venemoids.. but do not own any ..


Here is the only valid point I totally agree with to own a venemoid snake..

One .. A venemous keeper .. very highly though off has a venemoid used to train other keepers.. of course only he knows its a venemoid.. the new keeper does not .. now u gotta admit .. that is trully a good reason for owning one .. but not a good reason to butcher one lol ..

EXCEPT for that .. No other points is valid imo..

Just my small ramble

[MsTT]

Venomoid FAQ:

http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/venomoid-faq.html

My objection to the procedure is on humane grounds. Oral surgery is very, very painful even when it is performed properly by a licensed veterinarian who uses postoperative pain relief medications. And most venomoid snakes on the market today were not operated on by veterinarians. The garage hackers don't use pain medication.

All anesthetic type drugs are illegal for unlicensed inviduals to use and possess, so the garage hackers skimp on this part and either use the minimum amount of drug they can easily obtain illegally, or they don't use any anesthesia at all. A very cold snake cannot move, but it can still feel every cut that is made.

Read the FAQ and article links for more information on why venomoids are a bad idea.

[Mustangrde1]

Putting emotions aside and looking at the subject from a pure statistic view 90% of the animals that go under this " UNEEDED" surgery by Unqualified person DIE. That comes out to 10 out of 100 survive hence the high cost for a venomoid.

Now lets look at the safety issue. If the surgery is not done perfectly the animals can again become venomous and fully capable of delivering a fatal bite. I know of one animal that had the surgery done and after a check just off a gut instinct had yellow fluid show on a towel " venom " though it was not conclusive after having numerous mice and rats bitten by the animal they all died in relatively quick order "venom". Now as this was a Papuan Black snake and not by any means a constrictor or viper with large fangs all I could say is "VENOMOUS."

Conceder that animal being sold as a VENOMOID and the person receiving it deciding to play with it and it bit him. He / She would have been dead. This is the biggest problem with venomoids that they can become after time lethal again and kill. Imagine if the buyer had a kid and the kid was bitten and died. Public outcry to ban reptiles would be beyond belief. It would not just be venomous but all reptiles. If you think that's not true your kidding yourself. So now this has put the entire hobby at risk. Care to loose your corns, balls, boas, monitors, geckos???

Many people purchase these animals so they can show off and handle a normally deadly animal. This is a foolish move for the above reason I have handled venomoids myself and always kept a very wary eye on them and no longer do it period for the same reason as well as my belief the surgery is wrong in that no animal should be subject to a surgery with such high mortality rate.

Another reason is that they feel that if they train with a venomoid they will be ready to handle the real thing. This is so far from the truth it makes me laugh when I hear it. First off I have never seen a venomoid after surgery act like a true venomous. Also you will always have it in the back of your head that it is not deadly so you wont show it the proper respect needed. If you do want to keep hots or are thinking about it write on a yellow sticky note every time a snake bites you "today I could have died" at the end of a year see how many times you would have died and then ask yourself if its worth it.

Many people think they also cannot find a true venomous handler to properly train them so they get the voids to learn. I can get the same training out of a cornsnake or coachwhip. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A TRAINER WITH REAL VENOMOUS to teach you. Anyone that says they cant find someone is plain lazy and really isn't looking for one. This is a fact I lived in CA and kept native venomous from 1987 till 2000 when I moved to FL where I had to meet all of Florida's laws and regulations to get a permit for keeping them here which I did. It took me time to find a venomous teacher here but I did it so no one has an excuse in my eyes not to.

Then we have the people who buy one for the same reason they buy an expensive car or get a big constrictor and that is to SHOW OFF. Showing off gets you killed.

Now lets suppose you do get one anyway and it does bite you depending on species you may not be able to get antivenin in time to save your life. This is because you or the hospital does not carry the AV. needed or may not know where to get some from. Also hospital personal may not know how to treat such a bite. This occurs because a Venomoid keeper does not do near the research on the animal a venomous keeper would do. Nor do they research the proper AV. and where to locate it.

As to the surgery and standards of the surgery. Medications are regulated, but more to the point there are federal laws that require proper sterile surgical environments as well as a host of other requirements including full medical records on the animals. These subjects would take hours to go in to.

Bottom line is this is a heated emotional debate especially among venomous keepers. But everyone should feel that if any operation to any animal has such a high mortality rate it should be outlawed. These surgeries are performed at high cost of life to the animals involved and done purely for no other reason than selling the few that do survive at an extremely high price. If you think that is incorrect the wholesale cost for say a Monocle Cobra "Naja kaouthia" in Bulk is about $65.00 per animal. The resale price of a venomoid is $400.00 to $500.00 the cost of surgery through an unqualified person using substandard equipment and medications is roughly $50.00 so now the animal is worth $115.00 add in shipping of $65.00 and a box charge of $25.00 it all comes out to these people doing it ONLY AND SOULY FOR PROFITABLE GAINS. No care for the animals no regards for the animals safety or well being.

It is and always will be a subject of not just Morals but of Legalities! We Know laws are there for a reason and we as a community should make certain they are enforced. If we sit back and do nothing then we are as guilty as those performing the operation without proper qualifications or licensing. Furthermore anyone worried about having a law enforced that is clearly already on the books for fear it " { MIGHT} " somehow affect the rest of the hobby needs to exam the bigger picture of the potential for even greater damage to the hobby if it is not enforced.

In this case of venomoids WE KNOW FOR FACT that some of the surgeries have gone bad and the animal was fully capable of delivering a fatal bite!!!! Hot keepers know full well the risk we take anytime we have to interact with any of the animals in our care. We take that risk yes, but use every precaution possible is used to ensure our safety as well as the animals. Where a person who has a venomoid will take much greater risk up to and including free handling. That risk in unacceptable ever in my opinion. With venomoids becoming ever so readily available it is only a matter of time before more and more bites occur and some turn out to be hot. At that point is when more restrictive laws WILL be imposed.

Us Policing ourselves is a great idea. Are you willing to stop buying from ANYONE that sells or advertises for venomoids?

The only way other then legal pressure to stop these people is to hit them where it hurts the most and that's in the pocketbook.

For example if Reptiles Magazine was to offer for sale Venomoids even though they themselves do not allow it would you be willing to write them a letter and say you will no longer subscribe to their magazine. Or would you be willing to say no more ************** or FaunaClassifieds if they allowed selling of venomoids?

If enough people banded together and write letters and say we will not support your Magazine, Store , Website so long as you sell venomoids or allow the sales then I bet sales would be dramatically cut and or even stopped in time.

Problem is how many people have the balls to do it ?

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/55?venomsid=62c5be999bad6c409484794fadae28fd

The Link above shows a venomoid surgery being preformed. Now if we want to get in to what laws are required for performing a surgery what you just saw in that link is incredibly illegal. Based on sanitary conditions required. but its getting late and I better get to work. Might pick it up later though

[Gregg M]

I dont buy into that live feeder test........ Just like you said there are snakes with long fangs......... I am pretty sure 9 times out of ten a venomoid gaboon will kill a live mouse or rat........ This is based on where I see my bitis species hit the prey item.......... Yes I feed live sometimes......... I am cetain that the bite alone without the venom, sometimes actually kills a rat or mouse faster than the venom can......... How long would you live if someone jammed two half inch diameter PVC pipes in your chest........ My guess is, not very long........ I do not feel bite testing is an effective way to tell if a snake is hot or not......... The best thing to do is keep all the guess work out and leave the animal as it was intended to be......... HOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Crotalus75]

"If enough people banded together and write letters and say we will not support your Magazine, Store , Website so long as you sell venomoids or allow the sales then I bet sales would be dramatically cut and or even stopped in time."

This is the most important anti-venomoid action that can be taken. All of us who are disgusted by this practice MUST boycott any and ALL parties that are involved in or benefit from venomoids. Since it does not look like these laws will be enforced anytime soon this is the most effective tactic that we have.

[Crotalus75]

Does anyone have a comprehensive list of currently active venomoid dealers and "surgeons"? This would help. If so E-mail me directly instead of posting it because I don't want to give these criminals any advertisement.

[Mustangrde1]

Tad I do not have a list on the computer but just go look at and sites classifieds they are more and more full of these animals and their sellers.

[Mustangrde1]

Just a Thought but here is a link everyone might find interesting as to what is cruelty to animals. ALL 50 STATES.

http://www.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cruelty/cruelty.htm

Alabama
3-1-10. Wanton, malicious, etc., destruction, injury, etc., of animal or article or commodity of value of another -- Prohibited

Any person, who unlawfully, wantonly or maliciously kills, disables, disfigures, destroys or injures any animal or article or commodity of value which is the property of another must, on conviction, be fined not less than twice the value of the injury or damage to the owner of the property nor more than $1,000.00 and may also be imprisoned in the county jail, or sentenced to hard labor for the county for not more than six months, and so much of the fine as may be necessary to repair the injury or loss shall go to the party injured.

Florida
828.12. Cruelty to animals

(1) A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.

(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

(3) A veterinarian licensed to practice in the state shall be held harmless from either criminal or civil liability for any decisions made or services rendered under the provisions of this section. Such a veterinarian is, therefore, under this subsection, immune from a lawsuit for his or her part in an investigation of cruelty to animals.

(4) A person who intentionally trips, fells, ropes, or lassos the legs of a horse by any means for the purpose of entertainment or sport shall be guilty of a third degree felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this subsection, "trip" means any act that consists of the use of any wire, pole, stick, rope, or other apparatus to cause a horse to fall or lose its balance, and "horse" means any animal of any registered breed of the genus Equus, or any recognized hybrid thereof. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply when tripping is used:
(a) To control a horse that is posing an immediate threat to other livestock or human beings;
(b) For the purpose of identifying ownership of the horse when its ownership is unknown; or
(c) For the purpose of administering veterinary care to the horse.

Georgia

(c) A person commits the offense of aggravated cruelty to animals when he or she knowingly and maliciously causes death or physical harm to an animal by rendering a part of such animal's body useless or by seriously disfiguring such animal. A person convicted of the offense of aggravated cruelty to animals shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years, a fine not to exceed $15,000.00, or both, provided that any person who is convicted of a second or subsequent violation of this subsection shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years, a fine not to exceed the amount provided by Code Section 17-10-8, or both.

Oregon
167.310. Definitions for ORS 167.310 to 167.350.
As used in ORS 167.310 to 167.350:

(1) "Animal" means any nonhuman mammal, bird, reptile, amphibian or fish.
167.320. Animal abuse in the first degree.
(1) A person commits the crime of animal abuse in the first degree if, except as otherwise authorized by law, the person intentionally, knowingly or recklessly:

(a) Causes serious physical injury to an animal; or

(b) Cruelly causes the death of an animal.

(2) Any practice of good animal husbandry is not a violation of this section.

(3) Animal abuse in the first degree is a Class A misdemeanor.

Washington state
16.52.205. Animal cruelty in the first degree
(1) A person is guilty of animal cruelty in the first degree when, except as authorized in law, he or she intentionally (a) inflicts substantial pain on, (b) causes physical injury to, or (c) kills an animal by a means causing undue suffering, or forces a minor to inflict unnecessary pain, injury, or death on an animal.

(2) Animal cruelty in the first degree is a class C felony.


These are just a few of the random laws. Now add in Federal Laws and Statues along with Veterianary laws and you get the picture we have laws but they are not being enforced. You really want to stop these people FORCE AND DEMAND that the laws be enforced. By the way Sellers having these animals made in to venomoids may want to look at their state laws. Some states actually could prosecute them for contributing.

[Crotalus75]

I have already made a list of all venomoid sellers on the KS classifieds. :) I only know of a couple of people who are actually doing most of these surgeries though. If anyone has more of those names I am definitely interested to hear them.

[Mustangrde1]

Tad look past the sellers. and look to the doers. It is them and the practice that needs to be stopped.Boycotts are great but it will take everyone writing letters, and at that I do not see some of the classifieds cutting the nose to spite the face. I do however see the states acting if they are given the DEMAND by the public to enforce the laws. Its frustrating to no end but some state agencies are starting to listen and actually start investigations but it will take many people actually getting off their lazy butts and actually E-mailing the states with Names and follow it up by the Law..

I.E.
To the State of { INSERT HERE} It has come to my attention that { INSERT HACKMASTERS NAME } Is Conducting Operations and or Alterations on animals without a Veterinary degree and as such is in violation of { INSERT LAW / Laws HERE} As this is a LAW in your state I as a voting member of the public DEMAND action for this Violation of your state law.

If the person is foolish enough to post on a web forum send the text with the letter. By demanding action and giving them the law in violation or specualted violation it forces them to act.
Send the letter to states DNR , USF&W , Local Humain Society and the states Veterinary board.

[Crotalus75]

Scott,

Thats the truth. The ones that are performing these illegal surgeries are the root of this problem. But, IMO venues like KS have a huge responsibility to monitor and stop the selling of illegal products through their service. But as you stated KS probably won't do the right thing. $$$