Feeding frequency?

[Kashy]

Hi everyone. I posted earlier in may about a 2 year old boa I recently got. His previous owner didn't feed him well and cited regurgitation issues in the first few weeks of ownership and so when I got the boa, he was emaciated with all of the ribs showing and a lot of stuck shed. His previous owner also claimed in the history sheet that the boa is a BCC, though I think he might be a mix. In any case, when I got him he was at 240 grams at the age of almost 2 years. I've had him for about 5 months now and he's 409 grams at 2 years and 3 months. I started him on medium mice once a week and after 2 months started him on adult mice once a week and he's gained a lot of muscle tone and his ribs are no longer visible. All of the stuck shed has also come off from regular baths with shed ease. He's had one successful shed after this. Anyway, I kept him on adult mice for 3 months once a week with the advice of BSG and Riddick. The adult mice averaged around 22 grams each. My local petstore didn't have any sizes in between adult mice and small rats which average around 40 grams each so I kept giving adult mice until a 40 gram rat would be below 10% of his body weight. Last week for the first time I gave him a small rat and he ate it with no problems. Should i keep him on a small rat once a week schedule still or switch him to a 10/14 day schedule now?


PS: he is a lot more active now and seems a lot healthier than before. He used to be really lethargic but now he's decently active and curious. Thanks for all of the help!

[ClockwerkBonnet]

I'm curious to know what you mean by "small rats," but if the snake can handle them, go ahead and begin feeding it those once a week or so.

[richardhind]

on small rats i would move to 14 days now as they have a higher fat content than mice

[craigafrechette]

I'm curious to know what you mean by "small rats," but if the snake can handle them, go ahead and begin feeding it those once a week or so.

The OP stated that the small rats are approx 40 grams.

And I'm not trying to be rude, but you have limited experience with 1 underfed Kingsnake. Maybe it's best to learn more before offering advice. Putting a boa that small on a diet of small rats weekly would lead to a very unhealthy, obese animal in no time.

[craigafrechette]

on small rats i would move to 14 days now as they have a higher fat content than mice

^^^ this ^^^ is good advice

[ClockwerkBonnet]

Thanks Craig. I'm sorry I screwed up.

[craigafrechette]

Thanks Craig. I'm sorry I screwed up.


I hope you understand I'm not trying to be rude. It's simply for the benefit of the animals. In a world where misinformation can spread so quickly I just think it's best to only share what you have experience with and are confident in your knowledge.
It's perfectly ok to offer opinions, but might be best to stick to what's within your experience level.
I personally know nothing about breeding, for example, so I don't offer advice there, or anywhere I don't have the knowledge to do so responsibly.

I hope you understand. It's all about what's best for the animals.

[Kashy]

Thanks guys. I'll move him up to every 14 days. Should I expect the little guy to catch up in size to his potential or will he be a little smaller down the line? What has your experience been?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Yup, I'd go to 14 days. :) Glad to hear he's turned around! They tend to make a quick recovery once they start keeping meals down. Sounds like whatever was causing the regurges with the previous owner was due to keeper error...

He's only 2 years old, he has plenty of time to grow. I've seen much much older snakes than him be a lot more stunted and still attain average sizes. It just might take them longer to get there.

[kazz]

he was at 240 grams at the age of almost 2 years.

omg.:Wow:
I have 1.5 year carpet python. She is 500 g. Carpet's are much smaller snakes than your boa.

[kazz]

I'll move him up to every 14 days.
I'd feed him every week. your snake is really small.

[Kashy]

omg.:Wow:
I have 1.5 year carpet python. She is 500 g. Carpet's are much smaller snakes than your boa.


True, however my boa was raised in less than ideal circumstances and as such his growth has been stunted. He's gained almost 200 grams over the past 3 months alone so I'm not worried about his size too much. I'm afraid that weekly feedings on small rats that's are 10% of his bodyweight will result in unhealthy growth. At the end of the day, while I do want him to reach his potential size, having a healthy snake is more important for me. I don't want to take him from one extreme where he was emaciated with his last owner and then power feed him.

[EL Ziggy]

It sounds like you've got a good plan of action Kash. Best wishes with the new boa.

[kazz]

omg.:Wow:
I have 1.5 year carpet python. She is 500 g. Carpet's are much smaller snakes than your boa.

it's really weird to correct myself but my carpet python is 1 year old. Sorry.
But it's make things even more obvious.

[kazz]

I'm afraid that weekly feedings on small rats that's are 10% of his bodyweight will result in unhealthy growth.
Correct me experienced keepers if I am wrong but I think snake is ok if it's not
obese.
We all know signs of obese and can prevent it.
My snake is growing and takes 30% food and looks great. No obese at all.

[craigafrechette]

Correct me experienced keepers if I am wrong but I think snake is ok if it's not
obese.
We all know signs of obese and can prevent it.
My snake is growing and takes 30% food and looks great. No obese at all.

There may not being any signs of obesity, but that doesn't mean the animal is healthy internally.

[craigafrechette]

True, however my boa was raised in less than ideal circumstances and as such his growth has been stunted. He's gained almost 200 grams over the past 3 months alone so I'm not worried about his size too much. I'm afraid that weekly feedings on small rats that's are 10% of his bodyweight will result in unhealthy growth. At the end of the day, while I do want him to reach his potential size, having a healthy snake is more important for me. I don't want to take him from one extreme where he was emaciated with his last owner and then power feed him.

You're absolutely right! Your plan is the healthiest plan for your animal. Stick to it! :)

[kazz]

There may not being any signs of obesity, but that doesn't mean the animal is healthy internally.

So if you see any great looking snake you think it's probably unhealthy internally ?
Too much food lead to obesity. How can food harm to a growing snake without signs of obesity.
Do you think snake can gain visceral fat without gaining subcutaneous fat ?:eek:

[EL Ziggy]

@ Kazz- Boas and pythons have very different metabolisms. Everything I've read and heard from experienced boa breeders and keepers is that boas should be fed far less frequently than pythons. Many snakes in captivity are already overfed and with boas being more prone to obesity a slow and steady feeding regiment is probably best. Snakes need far less food than most of us give them. I know my carpets could survive just fine eating every 3-4 weeks now but I still feed them every 2-3 weeks. I'm getting my first boa today and already making the mental adjustment to feeding him less often than my other critters.

[Andy_G]

So if you see any great looking snake you think it's probably unhealthy internally ?
Too much food lead to obesity. How can food harm to a growing snake without signs of obesity.
Do you think snake can gain visceral fat without gaining subcutaneous fat ?:eek:

By the time a snake is putting on fat deposits that we can see, they have already filled reserves around their organs within their ribs, so in other words, once a snake starts to look overweight, it is actually usually obese.

[bigsnakegirl785]

omg.:Wow:
I have 1.5 year carpet python. She is 500 g. Carpet's are much smaller snakes than your boa.

Boas are slow growers, and carpet owners often feed their pythons much heavier than with boas. Plus, this one is a BCC, which frequently experience diet sensitivities and often grow slower than other boa constrictors. In this particular case, this one has had a rough start, and overfeeding will do nothing but make her unhealthy.

Correct me experienced keepers if I am wrong but I think snake is ok if it's not
obese.
We all know signs of obese and can prevent it.
My snake is growing and takes 30% food and looks great. No obese at all.

That is, unfortunately, wrong. Growth is not always an indicator of health, and it's not good to compare pythons to boas. Pythons can handle fat intake much better than boas.

As far as obesity, it is not always obvious. The key to preventing obesity is proper feeding regimens and exercise opportunities. Now, babies 100% can become obese, but it is less likely to happen since they are growing. I have seen boas younger than a year that were so fat they had scale separation going on, and you could easily pick out the oversaturated internal fat deposits. Boas become obese long before they get rings in their tails, and a lot of keepers only know a snake is obese when it becomes that obvious.

I'm not a carpet keeper, but I don't like feeding 30% of weight to my retics, and I'm sure it's no more healthy for a carpet.

By the time a snake is putting on fat deposits that we can see, they have already filled reserves around their organs within their ribs, so in other words, once a snake starts to look overweight, it is actually usually obese.

Yup. A snake can outwardly be fit and trim, and then when you open it up it's absolutely filled with fat deposits all the way up to its neck.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/5b07d80046c8c0bd008cd0c5729adb0c/tumblr_panz2i2Lbt1qga4pio1_1280.jpg

[kazz]

bigsnakegirl785, if your pic is correct there is no way to examine obesity until morbidly obesity and this video is wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspqmKjeJlE

[craigafrechette]

So if you see any great looking snake you think it's probably unhealthy internally ?
Too much food lead to obesity. How can food harm to a growing snake without signs of obesity.
Do you think snake can gain visceral fat without gaining subcutaneous fat ?:eek:

Where on Earth did I say any great looking snake is probably unhealthy internally??

The others already answered this. I'm sorry, but you're wrong on this one. Yes, over feeding can be unhealthy before the animal shows signs of obesity.

[kazz]

craigafrechette, I thought snakes gain subcutaneous fat first. But if bigsnakegirl785's pic is correct then snakes gain visceral fat first and no way to know how much visceral fat a snake gained already.

[Andy_G]

craigafrechette, I thought snakes gain subcutaneous fat first. But if bigsnakegirl785's pic is correct then snakes gain visceral fat first and no way to know how much visceral fat a snake gained already.

It is correct. We have taken animals that have evolved to store nutrients while eating relatively lean varied infrequent food and put them into small spaces in captivity and have given them a relatively unvaried diet that is high in fat, and we have offered this fatty item much more regularly than what they would eat naturally. That is why people shouldn't be feeding their snakes too much. Overfed is the hobby norm, and snakes are overweight almost by default in captivity.

[EL Ziggy]

I've been guilty of overfeeding my critters too and I've learned to dial it back significantly. I still probably feed them more than they actually need. I guess I feed myself more than I need too. :(

[kazz]

Andy_G, I gave a videolink above. What can you say about the video ?
Is there any tables to compare length and weight of snake-pets ?

[Andy_G]

Andy_G, I gave a videolink above. What can you say about the video ?

Just to be clear, I was stating that what bigsnakegirl posted is correct. The video will not play for me so I can't comment on whether it is correct or not.

[craigafrechette]

I can't get the video to play either.

[kazz]

This is a link https://youtu.be/sspqmKjeJlE
Forum embeds youtube links incorrectly.

[Andy_G]

That's a pretty good video. A couple of somewhat debatable points, but good for reference for sure. If you combine that video along with the information presented in here, you'll be good, Kazz!

[kazz]

Andy_G, but man, that video based on visual signs of subcutaneous fat. And a pic of bigsnake girl is based on opposite point of view - snakes gain visceral (internal) fat first and then subcutaneous fat.
Perhaps my English is too poor to make you understand what I am talking about. So I have made a pic.
https://i.imgur.com/fIF5Uff.png

[Andy_G]

Andy_G, but man, that video based on visual signs of subcutaneous fat. And a pic of bigsnake girl is based on opposite point of view - snakes gain visceral (internal) fat first and then subcutaneous fat.
Perhaps my English is too poor to make you understand what I am talking about. So I have made a pic.
https://i.imgur.com/fIF5Uff.png

Kazz, I fully understand you. That's why I said to combine that video along with the information presented here. The video is good to show a visual of an obese snake for someone brand new to the hobby. The video is made by a hobbyist with good basic information so that someone doesn't choose a visibly obese snake, and if they have one, it coaches them to put their snake on a diet. The information posted by BSG and backed by me is provided by professionals in the field of anatomical science and veterinary medicine, so far beyond and more in depth than what the girl in the video is talking about, which once again she is talking about the basics and helping people new to the hobby identify possible health issues with visual aid. This has nothing to do with differing points of view as all of the information is objective. The video in no way goes against anything mentioned here so I don't understand why you think the video disproves the accurate and correct information posted in this thread just because it isn't touched upon. The only person or people who would or could make a video about visceral fat would be someone in the field of science, and that is far beyond the people in the video above. That's as clear as I can make it.

[bigsnakegirl785]

bigsnakegirl785, if your pic is correct there is no way to examine obesity until morbidly obesity and this video is wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspqmKjeJlE

I'm not sure if there's a communication error here, or you're intentionally trying to start something. I said, quote, "As far as obesity, it is not always obvious." and then, quote, "and a lot of keepers only know a snake is obese when it becomes that obvious."

But, for many species, it doesn't become obvious they're overweight until they're obese.

That video is a good introduction to obesity, but several of the points are wrong.

-Spines are not a good place to look. It can be hard to tell the difference between a healthy spine look, an underweight spine look, and an overweight spine look. I have seen people mistake morbidly obese snakes with canyon spines as emaciated (where it's sunk in from fat deposits). I have seen people mistake muscle connections as vertebrae.

-Ribs showing don't always mean they're underweight. In juvenile boas, their ribs can be easily seen until they gain enough muscle mass to cover them. Even as adults, their ribs can be easily felt, although they may not be visible. Some species, especially highly specialized colubrids, can naturally have ribs constantly showing at a healthy weight.

-Some species naturally have a spread to their scales.

-Stretchy skin is more a sign of dehydration than being underweight. Even an obese snake can have stretchy skin, especially around the neck area. Now, I will admit a particularly obese boa that loses a lot of weight rapidly will gain some loose and wrinkly skin, but that should decrease over time.

Actual good places to look for over-sized fat deposits:

-The neck: if the neck has a noticeable swelling that travels down the body, it has fat deposits all the way up to the neck and is at the most severe level of obesity.

-The tail. This mainly pertains to boas: assuming they have recently defecated, an overly round and squishy tail means they're overweight. There may also be some scale separation. In incredibly obese individuals, they will gain rings in their tails as such:

http://www.animalsathome.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/overwight-boa-e1506562020926.jpg

This takes years and years of incredible levels of power feeding to achieve, and are permanent, even if the boa attains a healthy weight.

Kazz, I fully understand you. That's why I said to combine that video along with the information presented here. The video is good to show a visual of an obese snake for someone brand new to the hobby. The video is made by a hobbyist with good basic information so that someone doesn't choose a visibly obese snake, and if they have one, it coaches them to put their snake on a diet. The information posted by BSG and backed by me is provided by professionals in the field of anatomical science and veterinary medicine, so far beyond and more in depth than what the girl in the video is talking about, which once again she is talking about the basics and helping people new to the hobby identify possible health issues with visual aid. This has nothing to do with differing points of view as all of the information is objective. The video in no way goes against anything mentioned here so I don't understand why you think the video disproves the accurate and correct information posted in this thread just because it isn't touched upon. The only person or people who would or could make a video about visceral fat would be someone in the field of science, and that is far beyond the people in the video above. That's as clear as I can make it.

Exactly! That video is very introductory, which means there will be incorrect points, but most of it is very good, and serves the specific purpose of helping new owners recognize already obese animals. :)

[ClockwerkBonnet]

That photo creeps me out, man.

[Kashy]

It sounds like you've got a good plan of action Kash. Best wishes with the new boa.

Thanks El Ziggy!

[Kashy]

Wow I learned a lot from this discussion.

[kazz]

bigsnakegirl785,Kazz, I fully understand you. That's why I said to combine that video along with the information presented here.
Ok. I see we have no way to see obesity until obesity (is) becoming really obvious and last stage.
Well it was interesting and helpful thread. I hope I wasnt annoying )