View Full Version : I think I'm done.
I think I'm done asking questions on the website. I can't handle the conflicting, contradictory information that makes no reasonable sense.
Take my recent thermostat issues. Where do I put the thermostat probe? Answers I got: A) taped to the heat pad, B) sandwiched between the heat pad and the bottom of the glass, C) under the substrate on the glass inside the viv. I even spent $70 and bought new thermostats for both my vivs so that I could have better streamlined probes that would facilitate any of these three.
I read that by taping the probe to the pad I should have hot spot temperatures within just a few degrees of the thermostat set temperature. WRONG. My thermostat is set to 90 degrees. The thermostat probe is reading 90 degrees on the bottom of the pad. After 6 hours, my hot spot temp measured 80 degrees and 15 hours, my hot spot temperature is *still* reading 80 degrees via IR temp gun measuring the surface of the substrate.
Now someone's asking me if I'm measuring the surface or the substrate? What in the name of BACON does that even mean? I'm measuring the surface OF the substrate. What other surface would I be measuring? The glass on top of the pad inside the viv? Why would I measure that? My snake doesn't lie on the glass, he lies on the surface of the substrate!!!!!
Do I measure the glass under the substrate or the top of the substrate? Cue long, long, long, never ending debate in which no one ever ever agrees and I still don't know what I'm doing.
if these temperatures are so freakin' all fired *critical* why is there no consensus? Why is there no consistency? Why isn't there one simple standard of probe placement and hot spot measuring location that any idiot can understand?
Every time I think I'm doing something right, someone pops up and tells me I'm doing it wrong, I need to buy still more equipment. I own 4 thermostats now, for 2 herps and I still can't get any of this right.
And don't even get me started on the freakin' never ending feeding schedule debate. I still don't know how much and how often I'm actually suppose feed my snakes. And if any of my snakes ever regurge again, I certainly won't mention it here.
At this point I'm read rehome all my herps and give up on this because I just can't take the stress of never knowing what the hell I'm doing and never getting anything right.
I came here for information. All I'm getting is major stress and anxiety. You want to know why you get noobs who ask a question and then never come back? This is why.
You'll find differing opinions and methods in all forums in this hobby as well as conversing with veterans and experts. If you are unable to collect differing opinions and formulate something that works for you, then I would, with all respect intended, move on to something more suited for you. All the best, whatever you decide. Like all noobs, as you put it, I think you are overthinking, overanalyzing and looking for a "one way only" approach, and that is why people leave the site or the hobby.
Like all noobs, as you put it, I think you are overthinking, overanalyzing and looking for a "one way only" approach, and that is why people leave the site or the hobby.
I wouldn't be overthinking it if I weren't getting bombarded with so much conflicting information.
Yes, I am a NEWBIE. Too much conflicting information is overwhelming for NEWBIES. I wrote a post looking for simple answers. Where do I put a probe? Where do I take a temperature measurement? When a NEWBIE asks a question like this they're not looking for a professional level debate on snake care. They're looking for short, understandable ANSWERS that they can put into practice. There's a time and a place for experienced keepers to debate, and a NEWBIE'S question isn't one of them.
Y'all led me to believe that my snake regurgitated because of temperature issues on the hotspot and that I needed to fix the hot spot temperature to prevent further regurg. I have to overthink it because y'all have led me to believe that if I don't overthink it, and lose sleep over it, and sell a kidney in order to afford to keep buying more and more stuff, and get everything little thing absolutely freaking PERFECT that my snake is going to suffer needlessly, continue to regurg and potentially DIE because my husbandry isn't PERFECT.
Which wouldn't be so bad if y'all could actually agree as to what PERFECT is.
I want to fix my temperature issues. It's great that experienced keepers can debate this stuff ad nauseum but that doesn't help a NEWBIE who's trying to set things up right.
Well, in fairness we were all newbies at some point. We've all been there, some of are just better at handling it I suppose. But guess what...we listened to a myriad of different keeping methods and opinions and we figured it out. These are animals, not math equations. There are different ways to keep them and that's just how it is. You could have 10 different people who will tell you 10 different things about the same species of snake, and all can lead to having a healthy snake.
With that said, you will always get conflicting opinions, because no one keeps their snakes exactly the same as the next person. You have to use a combination of what you learn in a way that works for you and your pets. Hell, if you need to (for your ease of mind), just pick one of the suggestions and go with that until it no longer works. Most snakes are hardy enough to live through a little trial and error, especially when the methods you're trying aren't unconventional.
EL Ziggy
04-25-18, 03:25 PM
Like Andy and Bandit said there's not really a one size fits all answer. You're going to get different suggestions on subjective topics. The best thing to do is to take all of the information and devise a plan that works best for your collection. I believe most people recommended the probe be placed between the UTH and the bottom of the outside of the enclosure. That's where the majority of us have our probes but I guess that method didn't work for you and you tried something different. Sometimes it takes a little bit of trial and error before getting it right. If at first you don't succeed then try again. Getting your husbandry dialed in can be tedious and frustrating but once you get it right then things should go smoothly. Best wishes with whatever you decide.
And I still don't know where to put a thermostat probe and where to measure the temperature of the hot spot with my IR temp gun.
My BRB needs a hot spot around 86-88 degrees. Is that measured on the surface of the substrate? On the glass below the substrate? Oh, but I'm only supposed to have 1/4" of substrate over the hotspot according to Craig Frechette, but according to someone else I'm supposed to have substrate deep enough that Jerkface can burrow if he wants to. Can't burrow in 1/4", but I can only have 1/4" substrate over the hotspot but Jerkface frequently burrows so it needs to be deeper, but it can't be deeper and on and on and on and on. Not to mention that I'm making all these changes and trying to fix my hot spot temperature in the enclosure of a snake that regurged last Friday and is probably getting even more stressed out by my fumbling around, but if I'd left it the way it was he'd have gotten even sicker and continued to regurge so you have to change it NOW, but don't stress out your snake even more, but change out your thermostat NOW because you have BAD HUSBANDRY.
I still don't know if I'm feeding my snakes correctly. Is 12% of body weight every 7 days all good and proper for all constricters like BallBuster says or is it Power Feeding that will lead to obesity like Big Snake Girl says? No bulge, moderate bulge, same size as girth, 1.5x girth, move up a prey size when there's no longer a bulge, there should never be a visible bulge after feeding...WTactualF? All I want to know is how often and what to feed my Ball Python. I've been here 3 months and I still don't know. At this point all I can assume is that I'm doing it wrong and Nagini will either starve or be obese.
All I've learned here is that everything I do is wrong according to someone.
EL Ziggy
04-25-18, 04:24 PM
Again, this is just what works for me. YMMV. I measure the temps underneath the substrate because I know that's the hottest spot. If those temps are in range then there's no risk of the snake getting burned when it burrows. I have about 2 inches of substrate in each of my enclosures. Most of my snakes have hot spots of 86-88 also. My t-stats are set at about 92-93F to get the desired temps. All of my probes are between the uth and the outside bottom of the enclosures. I used to have my probes inside the enclosures but the snakes kept moving them or peeing/pooping on them and throwing the temps off. I don't have those issues anymore.
Feeding is another subjective subject where you'll get varying opinions. I tend to feed my snakes a bit heavier than some keepers especially when they're young. I use the 10-15% of body weight formula for the first two years then I dial it back a bit. I don't keep BRBs but for most snakes feeding every 7-14 days is a good guideline to follow for hatchlings and adults. Your snake won't be overfed or starved within those parameters. You'll also learn to "read your snake" as time passes and develop a schedule that works.
https://www.reptilesbymack.com/brazilian-rainbow-boa-care-sheet/
Brazilian Rainbow Boa Care Sheet (http://www.moonlightboas.com/care-info/care-sheets/brazilian-rainbow-boa-care-sheet.php)
Care Sheet Brazilian Rainbow Boa (http://rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com/care_sheet_brazilian_rainbow_boa.htm)
The thing about the internet is that you don't know who has what kind of experience...is the person giving advice while simultaneously asking for help about something they should know if they're giving out advice? Have they just read things somewhere online and have yet to get the actual hands on experience and they're just regurgitating what was read? I can tell you that I'd be conveying my own opinion on a lot of things here if:
1. I had the spare time in the day to do that, but my career and family time take precedent
2. I was certain whoever was asking actually listened. Although I usually prefer to be diplomatic, I will not sugar coat things, so that can be a turn off for people sometimes. Oh well. :)
3. I wasn't a moderator. I'd have more freedom to truly speak my mind...
It may be worthwhile considering who you're listening to, what relevant experience they actually have, and consulting people you consider to be worth listening to via PM instead of asking open questions if you don't want a variety of opinions on. Also, I of course advocate going outside of our forum as well and visiting both facebook pages as well as going to reptile expos to speak with people who can help you. And also to add...the MAIN reason you are overthinking everyone is because you are uncertain of yourself and you don't know who to listen to or what to make of things, which is part of being new, but let's be clear that is NOT fault of anyone else or yours for that matter. Everyone goes through it and you should really be thankful that there are so many people offering their thoughts and differing opinions because it used to be really hard to figure things out when everything was being imported and everyone wanted to keep their methods a little closer to their chest...lots more learning the hard way.
As far as your few questions here:
- Probe is fine taped on bottom of heat pad but foil tape can sometimes trap and radiate heat so try taping just below the sensor rather than on it.
-I don't have a strict feeding regimen...sometimes my snakes get only 2% of their weight, sometimes its 20...sometimes its every 4 days and sometimes its every 2 or 3 weeks depending on the individual and species, the biggest thing is feeding accordingly which unfortunately only comes with practice.
last but not least; there will NEVER EVER be a time where everyone agrees with what you do or how you keep something. Just doesn't happen. Sometimes majority rules, but not always. Once again, all the best with whatever you decide.
Wildernessmedic
04-25-18, 08:19 PM
I think I'm done asking questions on the website. I can't handle the conflicting, contradictory information that makes no reasonable sense.
I think that might just be keeping reptiles in general. Just from googling care of RTBs I've found 500 different answers. One says don't feed more than x amount of times in x period, one says if you don't feed at least that much it will die....
I guess just take one extreme and the other and go somewhere in the middle?
It honestly sounds like it doesn't matter as much as people might make it seem. Some things as far as safety like not feeding live seems to be concrete, others just guesses within guidelines? If its not broke theres no reason to fix it.
Most of my snakes have hot spots of 86-88 also. My t-stats are set at about 92-93F to get the desired temps. All of my probes are between the uth and the outside bottom of the enclosures.
Feeding is another subjective subject where you'll get varying opinions. I tend to feed my snakes a bit heavier than some keepers especially when they're young. I use the 10-15% of body weight formula for the first two years then I dial it back a bit. I don't keep BRBs but for most snakes feeding every 7-14 days is a good guideline to follow for hatchlings and adults. Your snake won't be overfed or starved within those parameters. You'll also learn to "read your snake" as time passes and develop a schedule that works.
This ^^^^^
It may be worthwhile considering who you're listening to, what relevant experience they actually have, and consulting people you consider to be worth listening to via PM instead of asking open questions if you don't want a variety of opinions on. Also, I of course advocate going outside of our forum as well and visiting both facebook pages as well as going to reptile expos to speak with people who can help you. And also to add...the MAIN reason you are overthinking everyone is because you are uncertain of yourself and you don't know who to listen to or what to make of things, which is part of being new, but let's be clear that is NOT fault of anyone else or yours for that matter. Everyone goes through it and you should really be thankful that there are so many people offering their thoughts and differing opinions because it used to be really hard to figure things out when everything was being imported and everyone wanted to keep their methods a little closer to their chest...lots more learning the hard way.
How can a newbie who's just joined the site, or even one like me who's been here a couple of months, have any idea who has experience and who's regurgitating information? I know that BigSnakeGirl keeps BCCs and seems far more knowledgeable about their feeding and care than anyone else but everyone else is just as much a mystery to me as the first day I joined. Short of asking for responders to post their CVs along with their responses, there's no way to tell if the person telling me to only use 1/4" of substrate over the heat pad is experienced and knowledgeable or if he's just regurgitating information off the internet.
- Probe is fine taped on bottom of heat pad but foil tape can sometimes trap and radiate heat so try taping just below the sensor rather than on it.
Why does it matter if the tape radiates heat? Whatever heat it radiates would be the same temperature as the pad. In any case, that won't work with the brand new thermostats I just spent $70 on. The probe I have goes directly from stainless steel sensor rod to flexible wire with nothing in between. If I only tape the wire then the wire bends and the probe dangles down and has zero contact with the pad. Do NOT tell me I need to buy new thermostats again. I am very hesitant to peel back the pad and sandwich the probe between the pad and the glass because it would create an air bubble and result in heat loss. I can't get the substrate to heat properly now, much less with a giant air bubble in the middle of the pad.
Currently, my thermostat temp is set to 95 degrees. It's been there for at least 8 hours. Prior to that it was set to 90 degrees for 12 hours. In 24 hours, my hot spot temperature has yet to rise above 80 degrees. It has been at 80 degrees since midnight last night. Do I set the thermostat to 100 degrees?
I bought the ZooMed ReptiTherm UTH sized for a 10-20 gallon tank. My tank is 10 gallons. Is there some experienced keeper club secret that I should have bought an oversized pad? Or do I have to sacrifice a goat to get this damned hot spot to the correct temperature?
At the moment my BRB is trying to recover from a regurg in a tank without an appreciable hotspot because *nothing* I've done is working.
-I don't have a strict feeding regimen...sometimes my snakes get only 2% of their weight, sometimes its 20...sometimes its every 4 days and sometimes its every 2 or 3 weeks depending on the individual and species, the biggest thing is feeding accordingly which unfortunately only comes with practice.
So according to this I could feed my 230 gram BP anything from a 2 gram pinky to a 40 gram small rat every 4 days to 3 weeks. Because that totally makes sense. I'll just stick with starving/powerfeeding/whatever the hell I'm doing that's probably wrong. I know! I'll give her 40 gram small rats every 7 days. It doesn't matter because there are no right answers. Everyone does it differently and everyone is right. I could even give her a rabbit and she'd be just fine. I can just make this **** up as I go along now because I can't make heads or tails of the information overload and it doesn't matter because there's no right answers anyway!
So according to this I could feed my 230 gram BP anything from a 2 gram pinky to a 40 gram small rat every 4 days to 3 weeks. Because that totally makes sense. I'll just stick with starving/powerfeeding/whatever the hell I'm doing that's probably wrong. I know! I'll give her 40 gram small rats every 7 days. It doesn't matter because there are no right answers. Everyone does it differently and everyone is right. I could even give her a rabbit and she'd be just fine. I can just make this **** up as I go along now because I can't make heads or tails of the information overload and it doesn't matter because there's no right answers anyway!This is what is causing you all your problems right here. You took what he said and tried to calculate it down to exact numbers, and there are too many variables, and now you're frustrated. His whole point seemed to be (and correct me if I'm wrong) that it does not need to be all about exact weights (both of the rats and of the snakes) or the exact amount of days. You can come up with your own regimen that works for you and your snakes.
You know, I've never weighed my snakes or the food I've offered them. At the nature center I used to work at, we never weighed any of the snakes or the rats we gave them. At home I feed my snakes once a week or so, sometimes once every two weeks. Sometimes one will wait three weeks and the others are still eating weekly. They're healthy and are doing fine. I eyeball the rats and see what might make a slight lump, or maybe no lump at all. I just got given 60 frozen hoppers for free. All my snakes eat rats bigger than that, but I'll just use them and feed them 2-3 at a time until they seem full.
Again, it doesn't need to be an equation (unless for some reason, you need it to be). In my opinion, if I had to weigh all my snakes and their food, and feed them to the day every single feeding period, that would make it a lot less fun for me.
This is what is causing you all your problems right here. You took what he said and tried to calculate it down to exact numbers, and there are too many variables, and now you're frustrated. His whole point seemed to be (and correct me if I'm wrong) that it does not need to be all about exact weights (both of the rats and of the snakes) or the exact amount of days. You can come up with your own regimen that works for you and your snakes.
I was using hyperbole to make a point about the useless absurdity of telling a newbie "do what works for your snake" in all situations.
For example: A newbie reads all this conflicting information, gets confused by it and decides to feed their 200 gram BP an 8 gram hopper mouse every two weeks for 3 or 4 months. The snake isn't dead, it's roaming around at night, and they've just read this post about how there's no hard and fast rules for feeding so they think, "hey, my snake isn't dead so this must be 'working for my snake'." Because they're a newbie, they don't know what an underweight snake looks like, and they probably don't own a scale, so that poor critter could lose a significant portion of its body weight before the newbie has any clue that there's a problem.
My point is that newbies do not have the experience to recognize what "working for your snake" actually looks like.
I thought the temps in my BRBs viv were "working for my snake" until he regurged last week because I did not have the experience to know they weren't. Then I got blasted from all sides with "you have to fix your temperatures now!" Now, I'm frantically trying to correct the temperature issues and I'm not having any luck at all because all I'm getting now is "do what works for your snake".
I don't know what works for my snake because what I thought was working for my snake was WRONG.
I know what won't work for my snake - a hot spot that I will not heat beyond 80 degrees (via IR temp gun) no matter how high I turn the thermostat. I'm sure he's cold and stressed because he can't get warm. He's recovering from a regurg and I'm sure my fumbling around isn't "working for my snake".
I don't know how high I can turn the thermostat/heat mat before it burns out the heat mat, damages my paint or catches fire. (I've already turned up the thermostat once and it had zero effect on the hot spot temperature.)
So I guess I'll just let him remain stressed out and cold with a sub par hotspot. Or take out all the substrate out of the tank and let him live directly on the glass. Or hang a blow dryer over his cage and blow hot air in. (For those who missed it again, I'm making a point using hyperbole.) Is he fine at the lower temperature? How should I know? Everything I do is just a random shot in the dark at this point because I do not have the experience to know what "working for my snake" looks like.
StevenL
04-26-18, 04:59 AM
I think I'm done asking questions on the website. I can't handle the conflicting, contradictory information that makes no reasonable sense.
Take my recent thermostat issues. Where do I put the thermostat probe? Answers I got: A) taped to the heat pad, B) sandwiched between the heat pad and the bottom of the glass, C) under the substrate on the glass inside the viv. I even spent $70 and bought new thermostats for both my vivs so that I could have better streamlined probes that would facilitate any of these three.
I read that by taping the probe to the pad I should have hot spot temperatures within just a few degrees of the thermostat set temperature. WRONG. My thermostat is set to 90 degrees. The thermostat probe is reading 90 degrees on the bottom of the pad. After 6 hours, my hot spot temp measured 80 degrees and 15 hours, my hot spot temperature is *still* reading 80 degrees via IR temp gun measuring the surface of the substrate.
Now someone's asking me if I'm measuring the surface or the substrate? What in the name of BACON does that even mean? I'm measuring the surface OF the substrate. What other surface would I be measuring? The glass on top of the pad inside the viv? Why would I measure that? My snake doesn't lie on the glass, he lies on the surface of the substrate!!!!!
Do I measure the glass under the substrate or the top of the substrate? Cue long, long, long, never ending debate in which no one ever ever agrees and I still don't know what I'm doing.
if these temperatures are so freakin' all fired *critical* why is there no consensus? Why is there no consistency? Why isn't there one simple standard of probe placement and hot spot measuring location that any idiot can understand?
Every time I think I'm doing something right, someone pops up and tells me I'm doing it wrong, I need to buy still more equipment. I own 4 thermostats now, for 2 herps and I still can't get any of this right.
And don't even get me started on the freakin' never ending feeding schedule debate. I still don't know how much and how often I'm actually suppose feed my snakes. And if any of my snakes ever regurge again, I certainly won't mention it here.
At this point I'm read rehome all my herps and give up on this because I just can't take the stress of never knowing what the hell I'm doing and never getting anything right.
I came here for information. All I'm getting is major stress and anxiety. You want to know why you get noobs who ask a question and then never come back? This is why.
Go to the other snake forum on the internet and you will literally get 100's of different answers on a question. Some of the best ones I like is "Well I don't own said species but I read on the internet that you should......." SMH. I've owned snakes longer than 90% of the people on these forums have been alive. I have stated my snake keeping facts, not opinions and my gosh some of the responses I get are beyond entertainment, flat out stupid. I too have given up stating facts on some of the less common issues people ask about. It gets tiring a 20 some year old that believes they are a reincarnation of Einstein because Google told them so responding back to questions. Snake care comes with experience and 99.9% common sense. Don't worry about seeking out that other 0.1% of knowledge, it ain't worth the frustration you have encountered. Bottom line is some snakes are much tougher to raise and keep in captivity than others. Boa Constrictors, Burns, Balls, Corns, Garters, etc. are easy. Get wrapped up in where to place probes and you will literally go crazy. Want to hear a confession.....I have 3 Balls and 1 Burm that have NO thermostat and they live happily and healthy. My snakes didn't have thermostats in 1980 when I started so why in the heck would I fix something that ain't broke for me now. I'm not going into detail how I do it, it ain't worth the hammering or judgement from someone that has a 1000 dollar thermostat then turns right around and complains about the price of a 5 dollar Wal-Mart plastic tub. On your BRB......they are tougher to keep in captivity. Google didn't tell me that, I experienced it. I no longer own a BRB. I didn't cook it or kill it. I GAVE IT AWAY to someone that I knew enjoys keeping snakes that require more attention to detail and enjoys their temperament. I'm done ranting. Hang in there and just keep snake keeping simple. Feeding schedules and prey size? Ask yourself one question, do snakes have size and schedule in the wild when they eat. Snakes get fat cuz 99% of the people that own them want them BIG fast. If you become a 1%'er that really cares about snakes and ignore the 99% that give guesses instead of facts, you will be fine.
craigafrechette
04-26-18, 07:23 AM
This is why it's important to do research BEFORE bringing an animal home.
You were offered advice on the probe situation and you chose one way that appears to not be working out for you. How bout trying the way experienced keepers have advised and sandwich it between the UTH and the glass?
As for measuring the temps ON THE SURFACE: it matters because snakes BURROW.
If you're not willing to research the animals, put in the effort to set them up properly, maybe snakes aren't the pets for you.
You're NEVER going to get ONE perfect answer. No groups of people ever agree that there is one right way to do whatever it is they're discussing.
It takes time, effort, trial and error and....you guessed it, PRIOR RESEARCH. I wasn't spoon fed info when I started in this hobby back in 1999-2000. I went to libraries, read books, studied the animals I was keeping. I STILL do that, because I am still learning. I will NEVER know everything.
The more you know about the animals you're keeping the better a home you can provide for them.
P.S. you're SOOOOOO close!!! Once everything is dialed in it really becomes easy.
Also, I highly suggest reading a few books. Books will be less contradictory and much more reliable than the internet. As discussed above, you never know who's posting online or what their credentials are.
Leah844
04-26-18, 08:00 AM
Don’t worry I feel your pain... lol it can get REALLY frustrating
I was using hyperbole to make a point about the useless absurdity of telling a newbie "do what works for your snake" in all situations.
For example: A newbie reads all this conflicting information, gets confused by it and decides to feed their 200 gram BP an 8 gram hopper mouse every two weeks for 3 or 4 months. The snake isn't dead, it's roaming around at night, and they've just read this post about how there's no hard and fast rules for feeding so they think, "hey, my snake isn't dead so this must be 'working for my snake'." Because they're a newbie, they don't know what an underweight snake looks like, and they probably don't own a scale, so that poor critter could lose a significant portion of its body weight before the newbie has any clue that there's a problem.
My point is that newbies do not have the experience to recognize what "working for your snake" actually looks like.
I thought the temps in my BRBs viv were "working for my snake" until he regurged last week because I did not have the experience to know they weren't. Then I got blasted from all sides with "you have to fix your temperatures now!" Now, I'm frantically trying to correct the temperature issues and I'm not having any luck at all because all I'm getting now is "do what works for your snake".
I don't know what works for my snake because what I thought was working for my snake was WRONG.
I know what won't work for my snake - a hot spot that I will not heat beyond 80 degrees (via IR temp gun) no matter how high I turn the thermostat. I'm sure he's cold and stressed because he can't get warm. He's recovering from a regurg and I'm sure my fumbling around isn't "working for my snake".
I don't know how high I can turn the thermostat/heat mat before it burns out the heat mat, damages my paint or catches fire. (I've already turned up the thermostat once and it had zero effect on the hot spot temperature.)
So I guess I'll just let him remain stressed out and cold with a sub par hotspot. Or take out all the substrate out of the tank and let him live directly on the glass. Or hang a blow dryer over his cage and blow hot air in. (For those who missed it again, I'm making a point using hyperbole.) Is he fine at the lower temperature? How should I know? Everything I do is just a random shot in the dark at this point because I do not have the experience to know what "working for my snake" looks like.I understand what you were doing. That's besides the point, because regardless of whether you were saying it to make a point or not, that's how you've been acting about the whole situation. Like I said...we've all been there and figured it out in the same way you have. You have to realize though, what you just said is part of the process. You figured out SOME of what works for your snake. You may still have more to figure out, but you're getting there. And remember, your snake is still alive, so you're doing something right.
Again, I KNOW that newbies don't always know what "works for their snake" but the fact is that if everyone called it quits because of that, then no one would own snakes. No one is born with the natural ability to successfully care for snakes. It's all about taking in all kinds of information, making some sense of it, and applying it. No, you're snake isn't going stress and die if your temps don't stay to the degree 24/7. Just like your snake won't die if you don't feed XX% of it's body weight every 10-14 days. I think once you come to realize that you don't need to be so stringent about everything, you will realize that it's not that difficult, and you are making a fine snake owner. Until then, I think you'll just making it less enjoyable for yourself.
How can a newbie who's just joined the site, or even one like me who's been here a couple of months, have any idea who has experience and who's regurgitating information? I know that BigSnakeGirl keeps BCCs and seems far more knowledgeable about their feeding and care than anyone else but everyone else is just as much a mystery to me as the first day I joined. Short of asking for responders to post their CVs along with their responses, there's no way to tell if the person telling me to only use 1/4" of substrate over the heat pad is experienced and knowledgeable or if he's just regurgitating information off the internet.
Why does it matter if the tape radiates heat? Whatever heat it radiates would be the same temperature as the pad. In any case, that won't work with the brand new thermostats I just spent $70 on. The probe I have goes directly from stainless steel sensor rod to flexible wire with nothing in between. If I only tape the wire then the wire bends and the probe dangles down and has zero contact with the pad. Do NOT tell me I need to buy new thermostats again. I am very hesitant to peel back the pad and sandwich the probe between the pad and the glass because it would create an air bubble and result in heat loss. I can't get the substrate to heat properly now, much less with a giant air bubble in the middle of the pad.
Currently, my thermostat temp is set to 95 degrees. It's been there for at least 8 hours. Prior to that it was set to 90 degrees for 12 hours. In 24 hours, my hot spot temperature has yet to rise above 80 degrees. It has been at 80 degrees since midnight last night. Do I set the thermostat to 100 degrees?
I bought the ZooMed ReptiTherm UTH sized for a 10-20 gallon tank. My tank is 10 gallons. Is there some experienced keeper club secret that I should have bought an oversized pad? Or do I have to sacrifice a goat to get this damned hot spot to the correct temperature?
At the moment my BRB is trying to recover from a regurg in a tank without an appreciable hotspot because *nothing* I've done is working.
So according to this I could feed my 230 gram BP anything from a 2 gram pinky to a 40 gram small rat every 4 days to 3 weeks. Because that totally makes sense. I'll just stick with starving/powerfeeding/whatever the hell I'm doing that's probably wrong. I know! I'll give her 40 gram small rats every 7 days. It doesn't matter because there are no right answers. Everyone does it differently and everyone is right. I could even give her a rabbit and she'd be just fine. I can just make this **** up as I go along now because I can't make heads or tails of the information overload and it doesn't matter because there's no right answers anyway!
As far as who you should or shouldn't listen to...are there people giving out advice while asking a lot of basic questions...have they had their practices questioned by a lot of other people..?maybe consider a members tenure as well as whether or not they actually have experience breeding, which is usually apparent in posts. People who ramble on tend to not have actual experience...that's all I can say without either elevating or throwing mud at forum members which I don't want to do.
Well, metal tape...since it is metal ...can trap heat and stop it from dissipating so it'll build up...if you're using metal tape to attach a probe right on the sensor then there could be an issue with the accuracy.
As far as the feeding thing goes...You should watch your animals and you feed appropriate size accordingly....but being that you're so new and you seem to need a regimen to live and die by, listen to whoever you think you should... I get that you're frustrated...but acting this way isn't going to make people want to help, so on that note you'll hear no more from me. Surely there is someone here you'll be comfortable enough to listen to, and if not, move on. I second the advice of reading some books.
Aaron_S
04-26-18, 10:44 AM
Look, this is easy. You need to find a method that works for YOU. Pick some advice. Be it tape the probe to the heat mat then elevate those temps until you get the desired hotspot within the enclosure.
Feeding, same thing, pick a method that works for you.
Problem is you're trying to take on too much at once and yes the membership is trying to help but I can see how we're all pulling you in differing directions.
Once you have one solid way of doing things down then you can start tinkering or listening to differing advice and start branching out.
As a new keeper, you need to get your animal and you settled into a routine.
riddick07
04-26-18, 10:45 AM
I mean if you are having so much trouble setting up the heat pad just toss it and go with the che for the temps. Honestly a BRB doesn’t need a hotspot really to digest they do just fine with ambient temps in the 70s. If your ambient is 78 then it doesn’t need anything else. Turn off the heat pad and see what the hot spot is on the substrate directly below the Che to make sure it isn’t too hot in that spot.
I used backheat for my brb when they were younger and it was never above 82-83 for them near the back where the heat tape was located in the rack. And it was 75 or lower near the front away from the heat. After they outgrew that rack I kept them at room temp which was 72-73 most days with no supplemental heat. They are not a species that require you to go crazy trying to keep them warm because hot kills them. Anything above 85-86 is the danger zone for these guys. I keep them in my beauty snake rack at the bottom now, which is still room temp with a slightly warmer side of 75 for the one and the other has a warmer range from 75-85 because it’s a few up from the ground in the rack.
So while you are stressing trying to make it hotter because he is ‘cold’ he is probably the most comfortable he’s been since you got him if the hottest spot in the cage is 80...
If you need a caresheet to help you understand what temp range is best this is the one to follow.
Care Sheet Brazilian Rainbow Boa (http://rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com/care_sheet_brazilian_rainbow_boa.htm)
Bradisa
04-26-18, 12:18 PM
All of these questions are daunting to us newbies, and this forum is great to get all of the various, and sometimes conflicting, information. But you need to take it all in, and apply it in the way it works for you and how your BRB is doing. This requires observation, adjustment, observation, adjustment,etc.
If your BRB starts to lose muscle definition, try to feed less; vice-versa. This can only be done over time.
I don't think heating needs to be overly complicated either. I observed, over time, that mine spent more time on the hot side, so I raised the thermostat 1/2 degree at a time until she started spending a more equal amount of time on both sides. If/when that changes, I'll make the adjustment up or down until she's where she needs to be. I honestly don't know if the UTH is exactly the temperature that the sensor is picking up, but I know my snake is enjoying both sides of her viv, has a great appetite, and looks healthy.
Same with humidity, etc.
It reminds me of starting a keto diet. At first you have to measure everything out, record all your macros, weigh all your food, and plan out all your meals for the day, week, etc. But you don't do that forever; over time, it just becomes second nature. You don't need to weigh a piece of chicken to estimate its weight or maco content.
FWIW, that's my 2 cents. I find all the information here, even if/when contradictory, to be quite useful. Plus it's nice and kinda fun to observe the snarky back and forth (unless it gets nasty).
craigafrechette
04-29-18, 04:19 AM
OP?????? Are you still around???
Guidelines vs fix-it-for-me.
OP, if you are still here, understand that we all operate within guidelines of "the animal's in question" habitat. There are very few hard rules and fortunately, there is a reasonable amount of variation to achieving correct husbandry.
You have been given the concepts, now you need to figure out the details.
craigafrechette
04-29-18, 06:41 AM
Guidelines vs fix-it-for-me.
OP, if you are still here, understand that we all operate within guidelines of "the animal's in question" habitat. There are very few hard rules and fortunately, there is a reasonable amount of variation to achieving correct husbandry.
You have been given the concepts, now you need to figure out the details.
^^^^ Well said ^^^^
OP needed to step back and take a break.
bigsnakegirl785
04-29-18, 04:08 PM
Anywhere you go, there is going to be contradictory information. Even outside of reptiles. There is no subject on this earth where 100% of the discourse is agreed upon by everyone. It's your job to determine what you find valuable, and to dig through the mess.
I'm not sure who said the temp should be close...I've never had my thermostats read exactly the same as the actual temp, regardless of where I place them. The important part is that you set your thermostat at a temp that allows it to reach your goal temps. I have thermostats set to 83F that reach 90F ambient temps. I have thermostats set to 95F that reach surface temps of 90-93F. You shouldn't be relying on the thermost to tell you temps, but as long as you have it set up correctly, it will control your temps. Even if the thermostat has to read 100F to get to a desired temp of 90F, all that matters is that it is resulting in the temps you want.
You don't want to measure the surface of the bedding. You want to measure the surface of the ENCLOSURE..below the bedding. If you heat the top of the bedding to 90F, the floor could easily be 100+, and result in burning or killing your snake if/when it burrows down to the pad. If the snake has access to heat, it should always stay at or below the maximum healthy temp.
I think some of your problem is also getting an intermediate species as a beginner. BRBs are not good beginner snakes without taking the time to research and digest as much information as possible beforehand. They are very sensitive to high temperatures and humidity, moreso than a snake such as a ball python, corn, or boa constrictor. They aren't as advanced as a green tree python, but they aren't the easiest to keep, either. I think a lot of more experienced keepers sometimes take BRB keeping for granted (even I do sometimes). If you're used to keeping other species, it's not much tweaking to get BRBs right, but it's a lot to start out with.
I've also noticed they tend to have weaker...dispositions? Than other snakes. I see more health issues in BRBs than any other "popular" snake. They are the only species I've kept that I've ever had die on me, though I'm thinking the ones that died were mostly due to bad genetics than anything (or I'm hoping). Regurges and early deaths are common in this species, from what I have seen. Perfectly healthy and long-lived individuals are also common, and sometimes they can be quite hardy. Just read this story (http://rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com/Lazarus_Story.htm) by Dave Colling! I just notice a higher rate of bad experiences with this species vs other species, and that may just be an information bias of some sort, but it has also made me feel I need to be more careful with them.
craigafrechette
04-30-18, 03:52 AM
OP needed to step back and take a break.
Maybe that's best for you and your snake.
Forums like these are such a blessing ...and a curse.
It makes is sooooo easy to find info with it all just a click away. And since we've basically all got a computer, tablet or smartphone, or all 3, it's right at our fingertips almost anytime any place.
...the drawback is obviously anybody can sign up for free and post pretty much whatever they want.
It also takes much of the "work" out of learning. It's too easy to only ask specific questions related to what a person is trying to find out at that time. Instead of taking a week, or however long, to read a book with chapters of valuable info people just want their answer NOW. People seem satisfied reading a caresheet and a few internet forum threads as there way of researching a pet. It's simply not enough.
It's important to always cross reference multiple sources before believing anything to be true or fact. If you read one thing, apply it then read another thing that contradicts the first you'll drive yourself nuts. You'll be able to weed through the bull spitters soon enough, it doesn't take long to learn who they are...
I honestly think you'd benefit greatly from going to your local library or buying a book or two. Sit and read them in peace, without the distractions and drama and contradictions of the forums.
The forums have become such fantastic tools, but they're just ONE tool. And many of us learned before this tool even existed. Get yourself a book and learn all you can about the species of snake you're keeping. The more you know, the better a home you can provide for your pet. You'll also spend less time stressing and more time enjoying your pet, isn't that what it's all about???
pet_snake_78
04-30-18, 08:33 PM
Good news is this one is pretty easy
[____________] <--- thats your tub or enclosure
<<< <-----That's your probe
-------- <---- That's your heat tape
You're going to lose a couple of degress through tub. If you're using like 6" of substrate or a wooden viv, the heat won't make it through and you'd probably need a totally different heat source. Fortunately, plastic/glass and paper or a small layer of aspen will transfer heat just fine.
Don't use foil tape directly on the probe you can use packing tape for that, but it's fine to use it to attach the heat tape with. Make sure the probe won't get pulled lose or your heat tape will run full throttle. Heat tape should not be more than 1/3 of the floor space to make sure the animal can get away from it.
Derek Roddy
05-01-18, 07:47 AM
I see more health issues in BRBs than any other "popular" snake. They are the only species I've kept that I've ever had die on me
People keep them too hot. It causes all types of issues with them from regurge to shedding problems stress, death, etc. Extended temps above 86 will cause almost irreversible damage with this species.
Most will apply the "all reptiles are the same" law to them and that's what causes the issues.
If you keep them below the 83/84 degree mark, they'll do just fine.
D
Derek Roddy
05-01-18, 08:05 AM
I've never had my thermostats read exactly the same as the actual temp, regardless of where I place them.
This is also important statement. If you are buying your thermostats from petco, pet supermarket, or even most reptile stores......IT WILL NOT BE ACCURATE.
If you DO want an accurate thermostat, you'll need to spend at least 150/250 bucks (Ranco, Herpstat, Pangea, etc) to get it.
D
sirtalis
05-01-18, 08:36 AM
Well.... just to add to the confusion, you could do the right thing and go bioactive. No worries about an undertank heater. Just a heat lamp, like the sun in the wild.
Derek Roddy
05-01-18, 10:31 AM
Phynex I also see you are in the Tampa area. If you want hit me with a pm. I’ll be happy to walk you through some things that will keep you on track. I’m right over in ft Lauderdale as well.
Cheers
D
craigafrechette
05-01-18, 02:03 PM
Well.... just to add to the confusion, you could do the right thing and go bioactive. No worries about an undertank heater. Just a heat lamp, like the sun in the wild.
Please explain how this is the "right thing"...
This is one of the more ludicrous statements I've heard in a while.
bigsnakegirl785
05-01-18, 04:51 PM
People keep them too hot. It causes all types of issues with them from regurge to shedding problems stress, death, etc. Extended temps above 86 will cause almost irreversible damage with this species.
Most will apply the "all reptiles are the same" law to them and that's what causes the issues.
If you keep them below the 83/84 degree mark, they'll do just fine.
D
I kept them a few degrees warmer than most, because of digestion issues at the recommended temps. Which is a hot spot of 78-83F and ambients 75-78F. I kept the ambients low, but the hot spot was 85-87F under the substrate directly above the heat pad. Above the bedding it was ambient temp. A hot spot lower than that, and their feces didn't look like feces. Just weird gross twisty mucus capsules.
This is also important statement. If you are buying your thermostats from petco, pet supermarket, or even most reptile stores......IT WILL NOT BE ACCURATE.
If you DO want an accurate thermostat, you'll need to spend at least 150/250 bucks (Ranco, Herpstat, Pangea, etc) to get it.
D
I have Herpstats, Vivarium Electronics, and Jumpstart/Hydrofarms.
sirtalis
05-02-18, 04:15 PM
Please explain how this is the "right thing"...
This is one of the more ludicrous statements I've heard in a while.
Reptiles did not evolve to live in a sterile environment like a kitchen counter top (paper towel substrate and newspaper??) Keep a reptile in a bioactive environment and you will see a huge difference between one kept in in a small box recomended by breeders or something trying to replicate the wild.
sirtalis
05-02-18, 04:16 PM
Reptiles did not evolve to live in a sterile environment like a kitchen counter top (paper towel substrate and newspaper??) Keep a reptile in a bioactive environment and you will see a huge difference between one kept in in a small box recomended by breeders or something trying to replicate the wild.
They can live in a sterile cage but there is a huge difference between a healthy reptile and one surviving in a sterile box
EL Ziggy
05-02-18, 07:23 PM
@ Sirtalis- What standards are you using to measure good health and what do you think the quantifiable benefits are of bioactive enclosures? I've kept critters in tubs, tanks, and pvc enclosures but I haven't noticed any differences in their eating, shedding, pooping or activity levels. They all seem to be thriving as far as I can tell.
Reptiles did not evolve to live in a sterile environment like a kitchen counter top (paper towel substrate and newspaper??) Keep a reptile in a bioactive environment and you will see a huge difference between one kept in in a small box recomended by breeders or something trying to replicate the wild.
You should have stopped at the first sentence.
Your second statement is conjecture and personal bias. You have no data to support this.
craigafrechette
05-02-18, 09:01 PM
@ Sirtalis- What standards are you using to measure good health and what do you think the quantifiable benefits are of bioactive enclosures? I've kept critters in tubs, tanks, and pvc enclosures but I haven't noticed any differences in their eating, shedding, pooping or activity levels. They all seem to be thriving as far as I can tell.
Thank you.
VeedubDan
05-03-18, 02:54 AM
All I've learned here is that everything I do is wrong according to someone.
It always will be Phenyx! Everyone thinks they know best because of what works for them. Me, personally, I don't even care about temps that much. I set my thermostat to 90 and let them crack on. My milk snake thermostat is set to 80 and ive never fiddled with it, moved it, changed temp or substrate thickness. He's been in his vivarium for 6 years now. he currently eats 2 large adult mice every 2 weeks, which I'm about to change to 3 weeks because hes looking a bit plump!
one thing I've noticed over the last 12 years of keeping snakes is that everyone with a snake thinks they're an expert. I took all my advice from a local breeder and i still turn to him for advice today. He always said to me set your temps and humidity and leave them the f**k alone! messing around trying to get that perfect hot spot will stress out the snake and cause all sort of problems.
Do you think they have perfect hot spot temps every day in the wild?
Do you think they have the perfect sized prey item every feed in the wild?
What about when it rains and they get soaked? or it doesn't rain and they're dry for a few days?
If they really needed so much interference from ourselves, they would be extinct by now!
Oh and just to put my personal opinion out there. If you're using a heat mat inside the tank, tape the probe directly to the mat. If the mat is outside the tank, sandwich it between the glass and the mat (if possible). If you're using a heat lamp, tape the probe to the side of the tank about half way between the lamp and the substrate. (only use aluminium duct tape)
That's how i have mine and i don't have any problems. They all thermoregulate totally fine and eat and shed and poop!
Set your temps, regulate your humidity and leave them alone!
And please, stop worrying!
bigsnakegirl785
05-03-18, 05:04 PM
It always will be Phenyx! Everyone thinks they know best because of what works for them. Me, personally, I don't even care about temps that much. I set my thermostat to 90 and let them crack on. My milk snake thermostat is set to 80 and ive never fiddled with it, moved it, changed temp or substrate thickness. He's been in his vivarium for 6 years now. he currently eats 2 large adult mice every 2 weeks, which I'm about to change to 3 weeks because hes looking a bit plump!
one thing I've noticed over the last 12 years of keeping snakes is that everyone with a snake thinks they're an expert. I took all my advice from a local breeder and i still turn to him for advice today. He always said to me set your temps and humidity and leave them the f**k alone! messing around trying to get that perfect hot spot will stress out the snake and cause all sort of problems.
Do you think they have perfect hot spot temps every day in the wild?
Do you think they have the perfect sized prey item every feed in the wild?
What about when it rains and they get soaked? or it doesn't rain and they're dry for a few days?
If they really needed so much interference from ourselves, they would be extinct by now!
Oh and just to put my personal opinion out there. If you're using a heat mat inside the tank, tape the probe directly to the mat. If the mat is outside the tank, sandwich it between the glass and the mat (if possible). If you're using a heat lamp, tape the probe to the side of the tank about half way between the lamp and the substrate. (only use aluminium duct tape)
That's how i have mine and i don't have any problems. They all thermoregulate totally fine and eat and shed and poop!
Set your temps, regulate your humidity and leave them alone!
And please, stop worrying!
I could see your other points but temperature is incredibly important. Too hot of temps can burn them, overheat them, cause neurological damage, even death...you should really be paying attention to it. Things go well until they don't, and monitoring the heat won't 100% guarantee nothing will happen but greatly reduce it. If you have thermostats (which it sounds like you do), that's great, but they break down sometimes so you should check at minimum once a week, but preferably every other day or so.
This is especially true for BRBs. They are not like your milksnakes, they do not survive high temps.
Reptiles did not evolve to live in a sterile environment like a kitchen counter top (paper towel substrate and newspaper??) Keep a reptile in a bioactive environment and you will see a huge difference between one kept in in a small box recomended by breeders or something trying to replicate the wild.I don't agree with this at all. I'll add that I've never kept tubs/racks and never intend to. I'll also add that I've never kept bioactive either, so I don't have a dog in this fight.
I feel like the whole "replicating the wild" thing is a load of bs. Even if you go bioactive, you are still putting your animal in a controlled and sterile environment, just to a lesser degree than one that's in a tub. You'll never get anywhere near a true replication of the wild when keeping something in captivity. You'll see more healthy animals in tubs than you will in the wild, where they have to encounter predation, disease, lack of food, etc. on the regular.
Sorry for the rant...again, I don't have a dog in this fight and I personally am not a fan of tubs (and I have nothing against bioactive setups). I just can't stand when people acting like their setups are superior because they go bioactive.
craigafrechette
05-04-18, 03:15 AM
I don't agree with this at all. I'll add that I've never kept tubs/racks and never intend to. I'll also add that I've never kept bioactive either, so I don't have a dog in this fight.
I feel like the whole "replicating the wild" thing is a load of bs. Even if you go bioactive, you are still putting your animal in a controlled and sterile environment, just to a lesser degree than one that's in a tub. You'll never get anywhere near a true replication of the wild when keeping something in captivity. You'll see more healthy animals in tubs than you will in the wild, where they have to encounter predation, disease, lack of food, etc. on the regular.
Sorry for the rant...again, I don't have a dog in this fight and I personally am not a fan of tubs (and I have nothing against bioactive setups). I just can't stand when people acting like their setups are superior because they go bioactive.
Thank you. I agree.
I think the several comments have proven that going bioactive isn't "the right thing". That user has been proven by several people to be misinformed and unreliable, as well as ignorant. The thousands upon thousands of keepers who keep their snakes in tubs can't all be wrong, especially considering the world's most successful and reputable keepers and breeders primarily use tubs.
JokerOfArkham
05-05-18, 02:13 AM
If you think about it, it's a lot like what we do with ourselves, our kids, our dogs and cats and anything else that consumes things. If you over water a plant, it dies. If you under water a plant, it dies. But keep it around the range that is acceptable and you're fine. My BP took a bit of research, but I'm comfortable with her and her feeding and her temps because the range of answers you are getting all lie on the spectrum of what's good enough. Temps looking low? Add some heat. Humidity too low? Spray a bit. The BP will come to adapt and become comfortable with what you do and what you give it (like a dog) if it eats, good. If it doesn't, wait a day and try again. There are no absolute certainties because life isn't perfect, it's well enough. So make it well enough for a BP to live comfortably. Don't freak out about conflicting ideas, just use them as inspiration for what you're going to do. Or become friends with someone who has been doing it a while and mimic their set up and habits. Last time I fed my BP it was tuesday, a week goes by and I grabbed her a mouse over a week later on friday. There's no 100% correct answer. Just like dogs. Just like cats. Just like kids. Just like ourselves. We feed them whatever they can eat, however much they can eat. If they don't there's next time, if they do they are good. There isn't a rule book. Just guidelines.
When this thread started as a simple „how do I provide the right heat and set my thermostat“ question I didn’t want to add anything because there are so many of these threads already around…, but since it covers many aspects of how we keep our reptiles I decided to add my perspective after all. So probably get yourself a cup of coffee, reading this is probably going to take some time (which is only fair, since it took me quite a while to write it).
Phenyx, you think you asked a simple question and expected a simple solution for it. This expectation is part of your problem – we are dealing with a complex living system here, where one component affects the other parameters. Today we are used to find simple, one-size-fits-all solutions in the internet, in forums or in facebook groups, but something like a caresheet can be only a rough guideline about the most basic care information and to be frank you have to know who provided this caresheet and what is his intention by providing it.
A reptile depends much more on its immediate surrounding than a bird or a mammal would, simply because it needs an external heat source to get the necessary body heat to get all those biological and chemical processes running, it can only control its body temperature by choosing a warmer or cooler spot in its surrounding, if there is no place to get warm enough the body functions will not optimally work and the reptile might eventually die, if it is too hot and there is no way to avoid the heat the reptile will overheat and will also die.
We have a completely different way of thinking about the weather and the temperature of our surroundings as a reptile. We think it is a sunny, cold day in early spring, with patches of snow and a cold wind, the ambient temperature which we feel is “cold”. For a garter snake which just left its hibernation den and probably crossed the snow patch to get to an elevated, dry and sunny place it is the first day to get warm. The temperature in small, sheltered places can be much different than the “ambient temperature” we feel. So for a reptile the micro habitat is much more important than the overall macro habitat.
Keeping reptiles is all about providing different choices, different temperatures our reptile can choose, different levels and intensities of light, different humidity, in short different micro habitats.
Back to your original question. In my opinion using an UTH is probably the worst way to heat a setup for a reptile. I don’t know any experienced keeper here in Europe who uses UTHs (which doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody does use them, they are sold here as well). You waste a lot of energy to heat the covering substrate from the bottom up to the top. If you provide only a thin layer of substrate enough heat to create a hot spot might reach the surface of the substrate, but your snake is not able to burrow and be completely covered by it. If you provide enough substrate for your snake to burrow the surface temperature is most likely not hot enough to create a sufficient hot spot. Another negative aspect is that your snake expects the temperature to drop if it digs into the substrate, instead the temperature rises the deeper it burrows.
A radiant heat panel is a good way to rise the ambient (air) temperature of your setup, but this way your temperature within your setup is more or less the same in every place.
Your reptile needs a thermal gradient for its thermoregulation, it needs a hot spot to get warm and a cooler spot to cool down and places in between to choose a preferred temperature for its current needs (ie digesting, resting, preparing to shed, hunting etc), so the preferred temperature can be (slightly) different for different activities.
A CHE can create a hot spot in your setup, but it doesn’t provide any light. Basic question, where would your reptile expect the warmest place? In a dark corner? I bet that a reptile would seek the brightest spot in your setup as the primary heat source, it might learn that another place is warmer but the “natural” place to seek warmth would be the brightest spot.
I use only spot lights for my enclosures, halogen lights for the smaller enclosures and metal halide lights for the larger enclosures, from 25W to multiple 70W lights. I place them over one part of the enclosure to create a real hot spot below it, the temperature right there is usually somewhere between 30C and 35C (86F and 95F). The opposite side of the enclosure is room temperature, ca 22C to 24C (72F to 75F). This creates a horizontal thermal gradient where my snakes can choose their preferred temperature.
To provide an example, here is a picture of my Spilotes pullatus enclosure, a tropical rat snake from Central and South America which shares some of the distribution as your BRB.
https://i.imgur.com/ng9TvIa.jpg
The dimensions are 250 cm x 90 cm x 190 cm (ca 8 x 3 x 6 ft) length x depth x height, the substrate layer is ca 25 cm deep (10 inch), the lighting is done by four 70W Metal Halide lamps, two of them provide UV. There are two cork tubes, one in the center of the enclosure, one in the right corner. Both of them are ca 100 cm high (ca 3 ft), creating resting places about 30 cm below the ceiling of the enclosure. In the left corner are several branches, providing another resting place about 50 cm above ground level. A large cork branch runs from the bottom in the left corner to the top of the right corner, providing additional resting (and climbing) opportunities. There is another smaller cork tube horizontally on the ground at the left side below the dieffenbachia.
Two Metal Halide lamps are evenly placed left and right from the middle of the enclosure to provide ambient light for the enclosure (and the plants), one of the Metal Halide UV lamps is right above the branches in the left corner, the other is right on top of the central cork tube. This setup provides different choices for my snakes
The top of the center cork tube is the hottest resting place, after several hours the temperature reaches ca 32C (90F) with full exposure to UV and visible light, the brightest spot in the entire enclosure.
The top of the cork tube in the right corner is slightly cooler, ca 27C (81F) but without exposure to bright light, more like half shade.
The resting place on the branches in the left corner has about the same temperature, between 25C and 27C (77F and 81F), bright light but less intense UV (due to the larger distance to the light).
Ground level between the two vertical cork tubes, ca 25C (77F), bright light, some exposure to UV form the central lamp.
Ground level below the leaves of the dieffenbachia and within the cork tubes, ca 23C (73F), near total shade, only some stray light.
So my snakes can choose between high temperatures, medium temperatures and low temperatures as well as between bright light, half shade and near darkness and full exposure to UV, less intense UV or no UV.
All temperatures are measured where the snakes would be, so on the top of the cork tubes, at the surface of the branches and the surface of the substrate.
I use this setup for all my enclosures, from small enclosures for my juvenile Malpolon, medium sized enclosures like my Zamenis or Philodryas or the large enclosures for Gonyosoma or Spilotes. There is at least one spotlight in one corner to create a hot spot and a horizontal thermal gradient to the opposite side of the enclosure and in the larger enclosures also a vertical gradient from top to bottom. The only difference in this basic setup is the Wattage of the lamp(s).
Of course this kind of setup needs a certain minimum size for the enclosure, use a light with too much Wattage and you will overheat your enclosure. When I build a new enclosure I put everything in it and install the lighting I think should be enough to create the desired hot spot without overheating the rest of the enclosure. Then I do a test run for several hours and take a temperature reading right below the basking place (on the surface where my snake(s) will be, this might be the surface of the substrate, a branch or a rock) and in addition I measure the temperature at the cool side, this should be room temperature. If this is the case I will put the snake(s) into the enclosure after several days of running the enclosure, otherwise I will choose another light with a different wattage and run the test again.
This way, I don’t use a thermostat in any of my enclosures, I am not worried if the temperature at the basking spot is more than 30C (and in some cases as my Malpolon it might go up to 35C or even more) as long as the cool side of the enclosure stays cool enough to provide my snakes with options.
For an adult BRB of 150 cm (5 ft) total length the minimum size of an enclosure would be 150 x 75 x 110 cm (5 x 2,5 x 4 ft) length x depth x height here in Germany, according to our official minimum requirements for enclosure sizes. For this kind of setup I think a metal halide light with 50W should be enough to provide a basking place with a maximum temperature of ca 30C (86F) and the necessary thermal gradient.
I never understood why anyone would like to keep his/her reptiles in a tub or a rack for an extended period of time. In my opinion a tub, a rack or a tank/aquarium is a suboptimal way to keep any reptile.
The biggest disadvantage is the fact that all of these solutions are top opening, so everything you do (maintenance, feeding etc) you do from above your reptile. For a reptile everything coming from above is usually a BAD thing (e.g. bird of prey), so each time you open the lid your reptile will be nervous, afraid or ready to defend itself depending on it’s personality. In time it will probably learn that the usual manipulation is not so bad after all but at least in the beginning this puts additional (and avoidable) stress on the animal.
I want to be able to watch my snakes, to see their behavior, their moving around or just sitting on a branch or inside their hiding, but I want to do this without having to disturb them. While some tubes with clear plastic walls might enable you to see them, pulling a tub out of the rack to watch them is definitely a disturbance for them.
The racks or tubs I have seen so far are not big enough to keep even a medium sized snake (100 cm / 3ft or longer) in them for an extended time. I might be wrong and there are bigger tubs out there, but so far I haven’t seen any.
I use tubs for putting some of my snakes in during any extended maintenance, if I have to separate them for feeding or as a short time/emergency quarantine enclosure, but never for any longer period.
@ Sirtalis- What standards are you using to measure good health and what do you think the quantifiable benefits are of bioactive enclosures? I've kept critters in tubs, tanks, and pvc enclosures but I haven't noticed any differences in their eating, shedding, pooping or activity levels. They all seem to be thriving as far as I can tell.
It’s not so much about bioactive or not but about enrichment.
“eating, shedding, pooping”, you might also add mating, that’s just the basic survival. It probably shows how hard to kill some of our “pet reptiles” like ball pythons, kingsnakes, corn snakes etc. are if they can be kept under such minimalistic conditions these “reputable, successful breeders and thousands of keepers” do. But the most basic living conditions, the least space possible, is this really what we want? Speaking solely for myself this is definitely not what I want. I restrict the amount of snakes I keep in order to provide every snakes with enough room to move around and different options for temperatures, light intensity and UV as I described in my previous post.
El Ziggy, there are numerous studies showing that reptiles in general and snakes in particular benefit from enrichment in their enclosure. Enrichment in providing enough room to move around in any dimension, gradients of light (including UV), thermal gradients, structured environment (branches, multiple hides and covers etc) and different food to just name the most basic form of enrichment.
Just a few examples
Gordon M. Burghardt: Environmental enrichment and cognitive complexity in reptiles and amphibians: Concepts, review, and implications for captive populations
Meredith J. Bashaw et al: Does enrichment improve reptile welfare? Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) respond to five types of environmental enrichment
Simon Bourguigne: REPTILE HUSBANDRY CONSIDERATIONS FOR VIVARIUM DESIGN
There are many more reports (peer reviewed papers as well as anecdotal reports). If you are interested, you should consider to join the facebook group “Advancing Herpetological Husbandry”, this group has proven to be a wealth of interesting information for me and the file section is a real treasure trove.
I feel like the whole "replicating the wild" thing is a load of bs. Even if you go bioactive, you are still putting your animal in a controlled and sterile environment, just to a lesser degree than one that's in a tub. You'll never get anywhere near a true replication of the wild when keeping something in captivity. You'll see more healthy animals in tubs than you will in the wild, where they have to encounter predation, disease, lack of food, etc. on the regular.
Sorry for the rant...again, I don't have a dog in this fight and I personally am not a fan of tubs (and I have nothing against bioactive setups). I just can't stand when people acting like their setups are superior because they go bioactive.
A bioactive enclosure is up to a certain point a “controlled environment”, but it is certainly not sterile. The specific characteristic of a bioactive enclosure is the “cleanup crew”, but this crew consists not only of millipedes, springtails and isopods, the real working crew are the bacterial destruents.
By going bioactive an enclosure is not necessarily superior to a non bioactive setup, but if you use living plants as part of your “naturalistic” setup you provide an additional form of enrichment.
I think the several comments have proven that going bioactive isn't "the right thing". That user has been proven by several people to be misinformed and unreliable, as well as ignorant. The thousands upon thousands of keepers who keep their snakes in tubs can't all be wrong, especially considering the world's most successful and reputable keepers and breeders primarily use tubs.
This is a nice killer argument. So if thousand upon thousand people where convinced the earth was a disk this makes it true? If they thought the sun would turn around the earth this makes it true??
Who are these “world's most successful and reputable keepers and breeders [who] primarily use tubs”? Famous breeders like Brian Barczyk?? That’s really a nice role model. Don’t get me wrong, I suppose Mr. Barczyk is a nice person, but the way he keeps his animals is just disgusting.
EL Ziggy
05-06-18, 05:28 PM
@ Roman- Let me start by saying your critters are top notch and your enclosures are next level. I wish I had the time, space and coin to do it big like that. I also have nothing against enrichment for any animal including humans. I agree that lots of space, climbing apparatuses, UV lights, and plants likely provide additional stimuli that contribute to an animal's well being. I'll admit that your animals have first class accommodations but how much happier and healthier are they than the vast majority of snakes from lesser enriched environments? And how do you measure that happiness and health? Are your animals larger or more active? Do they live longer than those in tubs, tanks and PVC enclosures? It does come down to the simple survival basics for me. Food, Water, Heat, Shelter and Love are all these animals need to thrive. Everything else is just luxuries. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all.
A bioactive enclosure is up to a certain point a “controlled environment”, but it is certainly not sterile. The specific characteristic of a bioactive enclosure is the “cleanup crew”, but this crew consists not only of millipedes, springtails and isopods, the real working crew are the bacterial destruents.
By going bioactive an enclosure is not necessarily superior to a non bioactive setup, but if you use living plants as part of your “naturalistic” setup you provide an additional form of enrichment.I understand that bioactive enclosures are not sterile in the normal sense. I guess I was more saying that it is still much more sterile than what a snake is exposed to in its natural environment. Just a matter of degree I suppose. And I agree with you 100% on the topic of enrichment. As I had said in my previous post, I've never used tubs/racks and don't intend to. I don't like the idea of keeping my snakes in a small box. I'd rather give them as much room and enrichment as I can. And while I know that you don't act like your setups are superior because of the bioactive aspect (although, if I'm being honest, you have some of the best setups I've seen), there are people who do. My issue lies with the statements involving "replicating the wild" simply because that's a false point, in my opinion. I'm not arguing any other aspects of a bioactive setup aside from the alleged replication of the wild. That's probably just the field herper in me coming out though.
Famous breeders like Brian Barczyk?? That’s really a nice role model. Don’t get me wrong, I suppose Mr. Barczyk is a nice person, but the way he keeps his animals is just disgusting.This is definitely a point that you and I can agree on!
[...] I wish I had the time, space and coin to do it big like that. I also have nothing against enrichment for any animal including humans. I agree that lots of space, climbing apparatuses, UV lights, and plants likely provide additional stimuli that contribute to an animal's well being.
Not all of my enclosures are big (and expensive), here is one of my oldest enclosure, now occupied by my pair of Aesculapian snakes (Zamenis longissimus). It’s a plywood enclosure, 120 x 80 x 80 cm (ca 4 x 3 x 3 ft), I used a rather old style fluorescent lighting until recently, when it finally failed I replaced it with a new set of LED lights for the ambient lighting. In the right corner is a 50W metal halide light for heat and UV, a few stones, branches and some plants, that’s all what it takes to provide a natural looking, enriched environment with several different micro habitats.
https://i.imgur.com/ywtUrhX.jpg
I'll admit that your animals have first class accommodations but how much happier and healthier are they than the vast majority of snakes from lesser enriched environments? And how do you measure that happiness and health? Are your animals larger or more active? Do they live longer than those in tubs, tanks and PVC enclosures? It does come down to the simple survival basics for me. Food, Water, Heat, Shelter and Love are all these animals need to thrive. Everything else is just luxuries. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all.
I suppose my snakes are more active as the same snake would be in a smaller enclosure. When I got my first tiger rat snake Spilotes pullatus I had to keep him in a relative small enclosure until his new one was finished. The snake was ca 180 cm (6 ft) long, the enclosure was 120 x 70 x 150 cm (4 x 2 x 5 ft) and it was resting in one of the branches at the very top of the enclosure for most of the time. When I moved him into his new home, he was much more active, you could actually see different activity patterns in different snakes, one male was a “early bird”, active as soon as the lights were on, another male became active about two hours later, the female was somewhere in between.
To answer your question, no my snakes are not particularly larger then other snakes of the same species might be, I think they show a wider set of their natural behavior, but this is my subjective impression, nothing I can quantify. However, one of the admins in the facebook group I mentioned quoted a study which compared the quantity of stress hormones in two groups of snakes, one was kept under minimalistic conditions, one in enriched enclosures. The snakes in the enriched enclosures had significantly lower levels of stress related hormones in their blood. I couldn’t find the actual quote (FB timeline sucks if you search something) but if you are interested I can PM him if he can provide me with the actual study.
There is an interesting paper about snakemites and bioactive enclosures. There is a strong indication that fast breeding invertebrates like springtails or isopods outcompete snakemites for places to lay eggs. Particularly springtails seem to be responsible for breaking the snakesmites lifecycle, there are currently studies if they even actively eat snakemite eggs.
I understand that bioactive enclosures are not sterile in the normal sense. I guess I was more saying that it is still much more sterile than what a snake is exposed to in its natural environment. Just a matter of degree I suppose. And I agree with you 100% on the topic of enrichment. [...] My issue lies with the statements involving "replicating the wild" simply because that's a false point, in my opinion. I'm not arguing any other aspects of a bioactive setup aside from the alleged replication of the wild. That's probably just the field herper in me coming out though.
OK, you certainly don’t want any parasites or pathogenic bacteria in your setup, so in this instance I try to keep it as sterile as possible…:)
When I started with keeping snakes back in the 80th every book you got mentioned to get “a piece of nature into your home” as one of the reasons why you should keep a reptile. I would not take this phrase to literally, not in the sense to create an exact replication of a natural habitat, but as some natural “objects” in your home, same as potted plants.
bigsnakegirl785
05-08-18, 09:39 AM
I'm not going to read through that wall of text, but I am just going to say, that the material of the cage does not make it suboptimal or optimal. It's the size and the way it's set up.
You can set a tub up to have a panel or a CHE. You can add bioactive elements. You can make it big and enriching.
Now, the downfall is that tubs only come in so many sizes...which means unless you're keeping a very tiny snake like a hognose or KSB or something, your snake will very likely outgrow a tub (imo).
But just because it's a tub doesn't make it inherently wrong.
I'm not going to read through that wall of text, but I am just going to say, that the material of the cage does not make it suboptimal or optimal. It's the size and the way it's set up.
You can set a tub up to have a panel or a CHE. You can add bioactive elements. You can make it big and enriching.
Now, the downfall is that tubs only come in so many sizes...which means unless you're keeping a very tiny snake like a hognose or KSB or something, your snake will very likely outgrow a tub (imo).
But just because it's a tub doesn't make it inherently wrong.
IF you had bothered “to read through that wall of text” you would have read that my issue is not with the material but with other issues
- top opening
- size
- often rack mounted
to name the most important. Because it is a tub doesn’t make it wrong, but it poses several avoidable problems, so it is not an optimal solution and you can avoid the problems by choosing a dedicated terrarium, which is a much better solution for almost all problems I can think of.
bigsnakegirl785
05-09-18, 09:39 AM
IF you had bothered “to read through that wall of text” you would have read that my issue is not with the material but with other issues
- top opening
- size
- often rack mounted
to name the most important. Because it is a tub doesn’t make it wrong, but it poses several avoidable problems, so it is not an optimal solution and you can avoid the problems by choosing a dedicated terrarium, which is a much better solution for almost all problems I can think of.
I certainly could have, but there are less wordy ways to phrase things. Such as what you have done here in this reply. A summary of some sort is usually quite appreciated, and even many academic writings make use of them. Otherwise, you make what you write inaccessible and a little daunting to read.
I'm not necessarily saying cut down on what you write, but offering some sort of summary, review, what have you, is a good way to emphasize certain things and draw attention. Most people aren't just going to read a wall of text for the sake of it, you need to be capable and willing to break it down. This hobby is not filled with academics used to reading and writing academic papers, so accessibility should be at the forefront of discussion. Otherwise, are you really discussing for the purpose of spreading knowledge, or tooting your own horn?
The downfalls you listed are definitely important, but most can be worked around and aren't necessarily true 100% of the time. I do agree that a well-designed viv from the beginning is ideal, but isn't always realistic for the average reptile owner. You can still make those "suboptimal set ups" adequate with good planning, and when using them for appropriate species or during appropriate stages in their life.
So, I don't really agree with the "no tubs not ever" stance you seem to be putting off on what I have read. When I have more time, perhaps I'll read over more of the rest. Saying "just replace your tub with a better set up" is not an appropriate response, and is not helpful.
I certainly could have, but there are less wordy ways to phrase things. Such as what you have done here in this reply. A summary of some sort is usually quite appreciated, and even many academic writings make use of them. Otherwise, you make what you write inaccessible and a little daunting to read.
I'm not necessarily saying cut down on what you write, but offering some sort of summary, review, what have you, is a good way to emphasize certain things and draw attention. Most people aren't just going to read a wall of text for the sake of it, you need to be capable and willing to break it down. This hobby is not filled with academics used to reading and writing academic papers, so accessibility should be at the forefront of discussion. Otherwise, are you really discussing for the purpose of spreading knowledge, or tooting your own horn?
Oh, I suppose some of my posts (OK, probably most of them) are a little longer than the average post in this forum, guilty as charged…:)
There is a reason behind this. I am a systems and network guy, but part of my job is also to teach my users and sometimes external attendees as well. Since 1995 I have accumulated something like 15,000 hours in adult education and training, from beginners to specialty workshops for experts. What I learned in doing this is that you can’t teach an adult by saying “do it because I tell you so”, you have to provide the reason behind it and if possible an example to explain something.
This has certainly rubbed of, I know that I sometimes try to explain something which might be obvious (at least for some/most readers), but that’s another thing, you can’t assume that everybody you explain something to has already a certain knowledge, you always start with some basics to lay the groundworks.
I don’t have the ambition to write any “academic paper” in this forum, but if I think it is necessary to make my point and to explain my reasoning I will do so, without adding a summery and a conclusion for the “lazy” reader. If you don’t want to read it all, but comment it anyway, I might call certain points to your attention I made in the previous post.
Accessibility is a nice thing to have, but as I said, in my opinion it is better to provide your reasoning in the first place and not handing it out in pieces one post at a time.
“Tooting my own horn” – never heard that before, learned something new here…:) But seriously, don’t you think if I really wanted to toot my horn I would post more often than I do? I write something if I think I can add some helpful information, preferable first-hand experience I made myself. I don’t need to mix myself in any thread just to push my post count.
The downfalls you listed are definitely important, but most can be worked around and aren't necessarily true 100% of the time. I do agree that a well-designed viv from the beginning is ideal, but isn't always realistic for the average reptile owner. You can still make those "suboptimal set ups" adequate with good planning, and when using them for appropriate species or during appropriate stages in their life.
So, I don't really agree with the "no tubs not ever" stance you seem to be putting off on what I have read. When I have more time, perhaps I'll read over more of the rest. Saying "just replace your tub with a better set up" is not an appropriate response, and is not helpful.
Why not? If I think a tub is not the optimal enclosure to provide the enrichment we could provide to any of our reptiles if we used an adequately sized enclosure with the right equipment, why should I not point it out? Especially if I provide the reasons why I think it to be suboptimal?
I suppose we can agree on not agreeing on the usability of tubs as longtime enclosures. I explained my reasons why I think tubs are suboptimal, if you don’t agree or only partly agree I suppose I can’t change your mind. I suppose you think the initial costs of buying a terrarium is more than the “average beginner” is willing to invest. On the other hand, a glass terrarium or a plywood terrarium 120 x 60 x 60 cm (4 x 2 x 2 ft) is about 150 Euro (ca 180 USD) if you buy it retail. If you consider the costs of all the other equipment, the snake, future costs for energy, food, probably vet etc this doesn’t seem an enormous amount for the initial investment if it lets you add so much more enrichment for your reptile…
So, I did it again, writing a wall of text, explaining my reasoning, providing examples, teaching (I hope you don’t think of it as preaching)
bigsnakegirl785
05-11-18, 08:51 AM
Oh, I suppose some of my posts (OK, probably most of them) are a little longer than the average post in this forum, guilty as charged…:)
There is a reason behind this. I am a systems and network guy, but part of my job is also to teach my users and sometimes external attendees as well. Since 1995 I have accumulated something like 15,000 hours in adult education and training, from beginners to specialty workshops for experts. What I learned in doing this is that you can’t teach an adult by saying “do it because I tell you so”, you have to provide the reason behind it and if possible an example to explain something.
This has certainly rubbed of, I know that I sometimes try to explain something which might be obvious (at least for some/most readers), but that’s another thing, you can’t assume that everybody you explain something to has already a certain knowledge, you always start with some basics to lay the groundworks.
I don’t have the ambition to write any “academic paper” in this forum, but if I think it is necessary to make my point and to explain my reasoning I will do so, without adding a summery and a conclusion for the “lazy” reader. If you don’t want to read it all, but comment it anyway, I might call certain points to your attention I made in the previous post.
Accessibility is a nice thing to have, but as I said, in my opinion it is better to provide your reasoning in the first place and not handing it out in pieces one post at a time.
“Tooting my own horn” – never heard that before, learned something new here…:) But seriously, don’t you think if I really wanted to toot my horn I would post more often than I do? I write something if I think I can add some helpful information, preferable first-hand experience I made myself. I don’t need to mix myself in any thread just to push my post count.
Why not? If I think a tub is not the optimal enclosure to provide the enrichment we could provide to any of our reptiles if we used an adequately sized enclosure with the right equipment, why should I not point it out? Especially if I provide the reasons why I think it to be suboptimal?
I suppose we can agree on not agreeing on the usability of tubs as longtime enclosures. I explained my reasons why I think tubs are suboptimal, if you don’t agree or only partly agree I suppose I can’t change your mind. I suppose you think the initial costs of buying a terrarium is more than the “average beginner” is willing to invest. On the other hand, a glass terrarium or a plywood terrarium 120 x 60 x 60 cm (4 x 2 x 2 ft) is about 150 Euro (ca 180 USD) if you buy it retail. If you consider the costs of all the other equipment, the snake, future costs for energy, food, probably vet etc this doesn’t seem an enormous amount for the initial investment if it lets you add so much more enrichment for your reptile…
So, I did it again, writing a wall of text, explaining my reasoning, providing examples, teaching (I hope you don’t think of it as preaching)
I generally prefer to offer the succinct version first, if possible, and then separately dive deeper into the details. This way, a reader can pick or choose where they want to start at, while still providing that information. This is harder to do when I'm tired, however, so in those cases I just provide the most relevant stuff and expand later if asked. XD
I have written my fair share of academic papers in the past, and they are split up into different sections by relevance, with an introduction and conclusion, so that the body may be skipped over if time or attention is an issue. Some portions may not be relevant for certain audiences (such as portions discussing methods if you aren't a researcher yourself), and can be skipped without hindering the usefulness of the rest of the paper.
As far as "why not":
Tubs are cheap, and easy to come by. You don't have to wait days, weeks, or even months for an enclosure to be shipped to you or to finish building your own. You can just pop on down to the local Walmart or Target and pick up a tub. From there, all you really need to do is drill/melt a few air holes and stick a heating pad/tape and thermostat, and it's most of the way done.
Those tubs can then be modified to have lots of cover and even climbing (for a small enough snake). If you turn it to the side, you can even make it front-opening. Since it's plastic, it is supremely easy to modify in all kinds of ways, so you can go pretty much vanilla or outfit it to fit your needs.
So, not only is cost a factor, but accessibility and convenience is also a factor.
Now, again. I will argue that certain species should not be housed in tubs as they simply don't offer enough room, and they may outgrow a tub very quickly. Such as retics or Burms. But a species that gets large, but grows slowly? Can easily be started out in a tub at first and upgraded later. This can reduce the housing costs, and instead of putting out hundreds of dollars from the get-go, you can spend several years saving up or putting together a more elaborate set up.
Tubs are also easier to move than vivs, especially if those vivs cannot be broken down. Not usually an issue, but can be. This is why I start out with tubs at first, just in case I need to move around. This is also why Animal Plastics is my go-to viv choice, since their cages can be broken down quite easily.
By saying "no tubs ever, only vivs" you putting a lot of unnecessary restrictions on people. Why should it matter what they're using to house their animals, if those animals needs are still being met? Just because someone gets a viv, doesn't necessarily mean that the snake now magically has all their needs being met.
A keeper that won't provide for their snakes isn't going to provide more care in a viv vs a tub, and a viv doesn't inherently mean better unless those extra steps are taken to ensure that viv also meets the animal's needs.
Now, my overall argument here is: you cannot base whether an enclosure is sufficient or not simply based off of the material. You must also look at the set up. A viv can be just as bad as a tub, with poor planning.
Aztec4mia
05-20-18, 05:42 AM
Aaaaand I think the OP has permanently stepped back, just like Homer Simpson in the bush meme:laugh:, fun to read through though.
Derek Roddy
05-20-18, 10:30 AM
All anybody has to do is checkout keepers (their set up's) who have "produced" a lot of the species you're keeping (most species will not produce if their habitat isn't with-in what the range of what they "need").
If it's working for those guys and they have productive collections, it will work for you.
D
Derek Roddy
05-20-18, 10:41 AM
For example
the OP question was in regards to a Rainbow Boa. In this instance it would be best to ask the question to this keeper....
Rainbows-R-Us Reptiles (http://rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com)
Dave has produced more Rainbows than most anybody in the US.
Go to his site and follow what he says and does. You do that and you'll be fine.
D
Hi, OP here. This thread became a tanks vs tubs vs custom discussion to which I had nothing to add so that's why I haven't commented on it again.
Sorry I didn’t answer earlier, had a busy week…
@ bigsnakegirl785, I think we are going around in circles. I said I would not understand “why anyone would like to keep his/her reptiles in a tub or a rack for an extended period of time” and explained my reasoning behind this statement. I also said, that form a perspective of providing enrichment for your reptile there are better solutions than tubs / racks, that’s why I called them “suboptimal” solutions for keeping reptiles.
Now, my overall argument here is: you cannot base whether an enclosure is sufficient or not simply based off of the material. You must also look at the set up. A viv can be just as bad as a tub, with poor planning.
No disagreement here. My reasoning was never about the material and I never said your husbandry is OK as soon as you keep your reptile in a terrarium or vivarium. Of course all other aspects of your husbandry have to match the needs of your animal, just a nice enclosure is certainly not enough. If you use a dedicated terrarium you will not need to make so many compromises or modifications, since the necessary infrastructure is already in place.
I don’t know about the availability of enclosures in the US, here in Germany where I live I have two department stores similar to your “Petco” or “petsmart” within 15 to 20 minutes drive where I could get an enclosure form small to medium size (let’s say from 30 x 30 x 30 cm to 120 x 60 x 80 cm) right out of the shelf, even if it would be sold out it would be in stock again within two days.
Aaaaand I think the OP has permanently stepped back, just like Homer Simpson in the bush meme:laugh:, fun to read through though.
Oh, we didn’t chase him away right now, I saw him posting in another thread just a few days ago…:)
All anybody has to do is checkout keepers (their set up's) who have "produced" a lot of the species you're keeping (most species will not produce if their habitat isn't with-in what the range of what they "need").
If it's working for those guys and they have productive collections, it will work for you.
That’s the big question, isn’t it?? Is “what they need” or as EL Ziggy said “eating, shedding, pooping, mating” all we want to provide? Just enough for them to survive and reproduce? Is the way “Rainbows-R-us Reptiles” is keeping their snakes (in racks as far as you can see on their homepage) how you really want to keep your snake at home?
I certainly wouldn’t want to keep any of my snakes that way, without any light, head space, climbing opportunities, UV light or in short, any kind of enrichment.
I would really like to invite you all to join the facebook group “Advancing Herpetological Husbandry”. Read some of the latest posts and some of the (scientific and peer reviewed) papers about enrichment, then come back and tell me if you still want to continue to provide “just enough” for your reptiles!
Derek Roddy
05-21-18, 06:38 AM
That’s the big question, isn’t it?? Is “what they need” or as EL Ziggy said “eating, shedding, pooping, mating” all we want to provide? Just enough for them to survive and reproduce? Is the way “Rainbows-R-us Reptiles” is keeping their snakes (in racks as far as you can see on their homepage) how you really want to keep your snake at home?
Yes that IS the big question. What they need and what YOU need are 2 different things.
If you would have actually taken the time to go through his website, you might learn a thing or 2.
All of Daves adults are in terrestrial cages.
None of his adults are in tubs but, do you know why his younger animals are in tubs?
Did you take the time to read his care sheets or to contact him about the species and why he dos what he does?
No you didn't because if you did, you would have learned that over his 45 years of working with these animals that younger animals stress very hard in open (big) environments. So in turn....they DO NOT thrive well in the environment YOU say they need as young animals.
They prefer tight areas and often what we would say is "uncomfortable".
So there is a reason that a veteran keeper might make the discussions they do. Because that what the animals tell them they need,
When you work with a species for that amount of time, you learn what makes them tick and all the species are slightly different in habits and behaviors.
It's best to learn from keepers who have productive success with the species you're trying to keep.
Anybody else opinion on the matter is moot.
D
Hi, OP here. This thread became a tanks vs tubs vs custom discussion to which I had nothing to add so that's why I haven't commented on it again.
Sorry phenyx, but the way this thread developed shows that there are different ways of keeping the same snake. At least I described how I would provide heat and light if it would be my snake before I helped in derailing your thread…:)
Yes that IS the big question. What they need and what YOU need are 2 different things.
If you would have actually taken the time to go through his website, you might learn a thing or 2.
All of Daves adults are in terrestrial cages.
None of his adults are in tubs but, do you know why his younger animals are in tubs?
Did you take the time to read his care sheets or to contact him about the species and why he dos what he does?
No you didn't because if you did, you would have learned that over his 45 years of working with these animals that younger animals stress very hard in open (big) environments. So in turn....they DO NOT thrive well in the environment YOU say they need as young animals.
They prefer tight areas and often what we would say is "uncomfortable".
So there is a reason that a veteran keeper might make the discussions they do. Because that what the animals tell them they need,
When you work with a species for that amount of time, you learn what makes them tick and all the species are slightly different in habits and behaviors.
It's best to learn from keepers who have productive success with the species you're trying to keep.
Anybody else opinion on the matter is moot.
OK Derek, I don’t know why you are so agitated, I really don’t want to anger you (or anybody else), I respect your work and most of your posts I read so far have been quite interesting even for a colubrid keeper such as me.
It doesn’t matter what I need, I never said (or meant) that the way I keep my snakes is the one and only way to do this!
Yes, I didn’t read the care sheets on the "Rainbows-R-us Reptiles" website, I read his "about us", skimmed through his "Available", "Collection" and "Photo Gallery". Before I continue I want to tell you that I respect his dedication, his enthusiasm and of course his success in breeding this species. Now I read his care sheets, what did I learn?
Epicrates cenchria is a semi-arboreal, slender bodied snake with an adult size of 5-7 feet. For adults a minimum cage size between 4 to 6 square feet is recommended.
Comment: I am not really familiar with standard sizes in the US, but a cage of 4 square feet would probably be 2 x 2 ft, a 6 square feet 3 x 2 ft?
As I already said in my first post in this thread, here in Germany this would be way to small, we have a guideline for minimum enclosure sizes, for an adult BRB of 150 cm (5 ft) total length the minimum size of an enclosure would be 150 x 75 x 110 cm (5 x 2,5 x 4 ft) length x depth x height here in Germany. Since they are a protected species (Cites Appendix II, subject to registration) you have to register them to your local administration here and they will sooner or later inspect them, so you should have a suitable sized enclosure for them.
Some other information provided in that care sheet Care Sheet Brazilian Rainbow Boa (http://rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com/Care_Sheet_Brazilian_Rainbow_Boa.htm)
-"I keep mine on a layer of dimpled craft paper with a couple of layers of newspaper underneath for added absorbency."
-"Neonates require a much higher humidity level than adults and can be housed successfully on paper towels."
-"With such high humidity comes mold, therefore attention must be kept to maintaining very clean cages."
-"Unless they are on several inches of loose substrate that they can burrow in, they should also be provided with adequate hiding spots. Though not an absolute necessity, perches and shelves can be added to the enclosure."
I could not find any pictures of an adult enclosure, I only found some pictures of enclosures for his Boa constrictor, but they seem to be the same size and basic design. If his BRBs are in similar enclosures these enclosures are too low to put in any branches a semi-arboreal snake might use to climb on.
So the basic parameters of this care sheet are just that, enough to keep them healthy and "eating, shedding, pooping, mating". I was wrong in one aspect in my previous post, in the enclosures for the adult snakes seems to be some kind of light (and they are not racks), but my other points?
- the enclosures are small, there is not enough ground floor for the snakes to move a lot
- not enough head space to mount any branches for the snake to climb
- as it is not mentioned, I suppose there is also no UV light
- no substrate for the snake to burrow in
or in short – no enrichment
Obviously, his method of keeping his snakes is successful, he obviously breeds them on a regular (and frequent) basis and from what he writes he really cares about his animals.
But I suppose he could be equally successful if he kept his snakes in larger enclosures, with some deep substrate which doesn’t start to mold if it gets a little moist, some branches, some (artificial) plants for additional cover and an UV light (I deduce this from my 34 years of keeping and breeding colubrids, some of them also from tropical rainforest origin).
As for keeping his neonates in small tubs – he does that to provide high humidity and a tight hide so they feel secure. Nothing special, in fact probably every snake I ever kept tried to avoid open spaces when moving from one place to another and prefers hiding places it could just squeeze in. That’s something to take into consideration when you plan the layout of your enclosure, you provide additional coverage like (fake) plants which provide cover for the snake when it moves. My neonate Malpolon are as skittish as they come and my adult Zamenis are not much better. However, if you provide some cover and avoid creating open spaces in your enclosure they calm down and will watch you from their hiding place while you watch them watching you.
I suppose if you provide enough cover in addition to (at least) a tight hide in the warm and in the cool area of the enclosure it should work for neonate BRB as well. High humidity shouldn’t be a problem as well, my Spilotes enclosure has a humidity of 85% to 95%, same as my Gonyosoma enclosure.
So Derek, did YOU read any of the papers I mentioned? Did you bother to read anything about how enrichment can improve our husbandry? That enrichment has a measurable and replicable effect on our animals?
Once again – this is NOT about what I want, but it should be about what is a BETTER solution for keeping our animals.
Sorry phenyx, but the way this thread developed shows that there are different ways of keeping the same snake. At least I described how I would provide heat and light if it would be my snake before I helped in derailing your thread…:)
No apology necessary. I've been on enough forums to know that threads evolve and change.
Aaron_S
05-22-18, 07:53 AM
I think this thread has run it's course. I'm going to close it so we can avoid any heated debates.
What has been said and shared has been great by all parties.
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