Regurg

[phenyx]

So, I fed Jerkface his 6 gm fuzzie for the week on Tuesday and today I found said fuzzie regurgitated onto the substrate. (I know he actually ate it because I'm still having to feed him in the 2 cup rubbermaid container otherwise he ignores it.) I'm embarrassed to say I'm not exactly sure when he regurgitated, but it looked fairly fresh so I'm thinking sometime in the past 24 hours. It didn't look digested at all. The smell, however, was something really special.

Now what do I do?

Ambient temp is 78, humidity is 84%+ - a bit lower than I usually keep it but still high enough for a BRB. I did check my hot spot temps: thermostat probe on top of the substrate says 84 but IR temp gun said 95. I don't understand how it could be 95 when thermostat is set to 84. Makes no sense.

[Andy_G]

What are you using for heat? The regurge could've been caused by the excessive hot spot, stress, or something else. Feed a smaller meal and wait a good 10 days before doing so, do that a couple of times and then back to business as usual. Also...what's the normal feeding regimen?

[craigafrechette]

First, it's important to figure out WHY the animal regurge. Temps? Stress? Was the snake spooked? Was the prey too big?

Second, it's very important to understand that a regurge is pretty tough on their insides.
Don't feed again for AT LEAST 2 weeks. Make the next few meals smaller as well. This will give the insides time to heal and smaller prey will allow for easier digestion.

[phenyx]

Belly heat is provided by a UTH on a thermostat. I've also got a 40w CHE suspended above the enclosure on the warm side to raise the ambient temps because when the ambient was "room temperature" (74) he wasn't eating at all.

What I don't understand about the temps is how the thermostat probe on top of the substrate, over the UTH, could have registered 85 degrees while the IR heat gun pointed at the same spot could register 95 degrees. I just checked it again and the thermostat says it's 78 degrees while the temp gun says it's 88 degrees. The temp gun is correctly measuring other temps so it's the one I trust.

Do thermostat probes always measure so much lower than the actual temperature?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Belly heat is provided by a UTH on a thermostat. I've also got a 40w CHE suspended above the enclosure on the warm side to raise the ambient temps because when the ambient was "room temperature" (74) he wasn't eating at all.

What I don't understand about the temps is how the thermostat probe on top of the substrate, over the UTH, could have registered 85 degrees while the IR heat gun pointed at the same spot could register 95 degrees. I just checked it again and the thermostat says it's 78 degrees while the temp gun says it's 88 degrees. The temp gun is correctly measuring other temps so it's the one I trust.

Do thermostat probes always measure so much lower than the actual temperature?

The UTH is enough, that CHE sounds like way too much heat, and high temps can certainly cause a regurge.

You can also try setting the CHE lower so that it's putting off less heat. I'd aim for a surface temp no higher than 85-87F and ambients no higher than 80-81F (directly under the lamp).

The reason why the thermometer probe is reading 84F is because it's reading the ambient temperature. The temp gun is reading 95F because it's reading the surface temp. CHE radiate heat, so it will heat objects below it easier than the air around it.

[Kevin C]

Hi, Phenyx. In the last post did you mean to say "thermometer" probe instead of "theromostat" probe? Just trying to clarify so others can help.

Typically, when using UTH, it is recommended to secure the thermostat probe between the UTH and the bottom of the enclosure/tub (on the outside). This way, it represents the actual temperature at the heat source and cannot read false low temps created by moisture, waste, or getting moved around by the snake inside the enclosure. That can make the thermostat believe the temp is colder than it actually is and create an overheating situation. The thermometer probe is secured on the bottom of the enclosure (inside) to give you the actual max temp inside the enclosure. So, the thermostat is adjusted based upon the thermometer probe or gun temperatures at the warmest spot inside the enclosure. A glue gun has always worked well for me when securing the thermometer probe. I would avoid tape or anything else that could stick to your snake.

For example, my Herpstat is set based upon my thermometer probe or gun readings inside the enclosure at the warmest area directly above the heat source. I personally use a low end temp of 73-74 F with the warmest spot at 84F so the snake can thermoregulate as she chooses. The thermostat reading will inevitably need to be set a little higher than the temperature you want to maintain at the warmest spot within the enclosure as it has to travel through the plastic or other material of your cage.

I could have read that wrong and if so I apologize for giving info that you don't need. But, if your thermostat probe is inside your enclosure that could be part of the problem.

[phenyx]

The UTH is enough, that CHE sounds like way too much heat, and high temps can certainly cause a regurge.

You can also try setting the CHE lower so that it's putting off less heat. I'd aim for a surface temp no higher than 85-87F and ambients no higher than 80-81F (directly under the lamp).

I don't have a lamp on this viv because I was told that BRBs don't need supplemental lighting or UVB. I just have the 40w CHE on a lamp stand. It only raises the ambient temp 4 degrees above room temp. My ambient temp is 78 degrees during the day.

[phenyx]

Hi, Phenyx. In the last post did you mean to say "thermometer" probe instead of "theromostat" probe? Just trying to clarify so others can help...Typically, when using UTH, it is recommended to secure the thermostat probe between the UTH and the bottom of the enclosure/tub.(on the outside).

I know the difference between a thermostat and a thermometer probe. (Forgive my peevishness, I have a screaming migraine.) I was referring to the thermostat probe, but your next statement confuses me. The thermostat probe for my BRBs cage is a ZooMed ReptiTemp Digital Thermostat. In order to get in between the UTH and the bottom of the glass, I would have to peel off the UTH, thus voiding the warranty, put the bulky 3/4" long, 3/8"-1/4" diameter probe in the middle of the sticky pad and then hope the mat resticks itself to the glass properly with a giant thing distorting it, but because it's a bulky, round probe, and because these ZooMed heat mats are not very flexible at all, it would create a large air pocket in the UTH, which the UTH instructions specifically told me to avoid. The probe is way too bulky to be attached thusly while still maintaining the integrity of the heat mat. I could, of course tape it to the outside of the mat but then I'll be measuring air temp again.

I have a different thermostat on my BPs cage (an Exo-Terra 600w Dimming & Pulse Proportional Thermostat) that has an integrated photo sensor in the probe itself that enables the night drop. That probe is obviously not meant to be stuffed between a UTH and the glass because doing so would defeat the entire purpose of having the photo sensor.

Both of these thermostats state clearly that they are meant to be used with UTHs yet neither of their instruction booklets says *anything* about probe placement between the UTH and the glass, while the UTH instructions clearly state to avoid air pockets.

So if there's a thermostat out there with a probe that is thin and *flat* and conducive to being sandwiched between the UTH and the glass without causing the air bubble that the UTH manufacturers specifically tell you to avoid, please tell me what it is. Otherwise, I need to find another solution. Can I bury it in the substrate on top of the glass over the heat mat? (The one without the photo sensor I mean.)

[craigafrechette]

You're getting inaccurate readings because the thermostat probe is inside the enclosure. It goes OUTSIDE sandwiched between the UTH and the glass. Being inside it is being moved by the snake, peed on, etc...all causing inaccurate readings.

[Scubadiver59]

I used the between the pad/glass method for a time, like most people recommended, but discarded that method a few months later: what I do works for me and the thermostat doesn't give me any bogus (aka inaccurate) readings.

Needless to say, I run the probe inside the tank, down the corner, to the middle of where the pad is below the glass; then, I tape it down with aluminum duct tape (same kind used for heating/cooling ducts), taping down the probe and taping down the wire until it reaches the corner. I use suction cups w/hooks to manage the cable running up the corner. And thus far, over the past year, in cages with diggers (i.e. Kings, Corns, and a Bull) and I have yet to have a snake pull the tape loose--the aluminum tape is that strong and that resilient.

I don't know how large your probes are for the Zilla thermostat, but if it's anything like that I used before, it's LARGE. I use Herpstat Thermostats w/stainless steel probes and they are rather thin, about 4mm in diameter, so they are rather unobtrusive to the snakes, and if you use enough substrate, the snake will never really know it's there.

I agree with you regarding the pad "bubble"--there's heat loss there where the probe is pushing up the pad. Having the probe right on the glass inside the cage ensures that the reading is more accurate inside the cage. I also use a separate thermometer probe, at the top of substrate as a second check of temperature--the probe is always going to be a few degrees higher (i.e. 88 vice 85) at the glass and cooler at the top of the substrate due to heat loss. So if the snake wants to get a little warmer, it can burrow down below and still not get burnt.

[phenyx]

Based on several posts on several boards I decided to use foil HVAC tape to tape the probe to the backside of the heatpad rather than sandwiching it between the pad and the glass. Then I read the instructions for my particular thermostat:

• Sensor location: ...Be sure not to place the sensor too close to the heating/cooling device.

So this is the instruction manual for the reptile specific thermostat telling me NOT to put the sensor anywhere near the heat mat. Why the hockeysticks does *no one* make a heat mat with an integrated thermostat?

[craigafrechette]

Putting any kind of tape inside an enclosure is asking for trouble. They can and will eventually get under it and stuck to it. I've read too many horror stories about snakes getting stuck to tape. I've heard of scales being ripped off, skin being ripped off and even broken spines due to tape, several of which were fatal.

Please remove the tape from your enclosure and don't let your snake be the victim of a lesson learned the hard way.

[phenyx]

Putting any kind of tape inside an enclosure is asking for trouble. They can and will eventually get under it and stuck to it. I've read too many horror stories about snakes getting stuck to tape. I've heard of scales being ripped off, skin being ripped off and even broken spines due to tape, several of which were fatal.

Please remove the tape from your enclosure and don't let your snake be the victim of a lesson learned the hard way.

I did NOT put any tape inside the enclosure.

The probe is taped to the non-sticky, backside of the heat pad on the OUTSIDE of the enclosure.

It is not sandwiched between the glass and the heat pad because the probe is too bulky to fit in between without creating a giant air pocket with resultant heat loss.

[craigafrechette]

I did NOT put any tape inside the enclosure.

The probe is taped to the non-sticky, backside of the heat pad on the OUTSIDE of the enclosure.

It is not sandwiched between the glass and the heat pad because the probe is too bulky to fit in between without creating a giant air pocket with resultant heat loss.

Oh crap, my apologies!!! I read that wrong then. Sorry bout that

[Scubadiver59]

Different strokes for different folks, and silicone works good as well.

Putting any kind of tape inside an enclosure is asking for trouble. They can and will eventually get under it and stuck to it. I've read too many horror stories about snakes getting stuck to tape. I've heard of scales being ripped off, skin being ripped off and even broken spines due to tape, several of which were fatal.

Please remove the tape from your enclosure and don't let your snake be the victim of a lesson learned the hard way.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Temp guns and thermometers read different things. Temp guns read the surface temp, thermometers read the air temp. CHEs heat the objects below them much better than they do the air around them, which means the surfaces directly below it are going to be much warmer than the air. Thermostats also only read the air temp (which is why they read the temp of a UTH much better being sandwiched), so you should set the thermostat to a temp that allows the surface temp to get no higher than 85-87F, and the air temp no higher than 79-81F.

I don't have a lamp on this viv because I was told that BRBs don't need supplemental lighting or UVB. I just have the 40w CHE on a lamp stand. It only raises the ambient temp 4 degrees above room temp. My ambient temp is 78 degrees during the day.

"Lamp" refers to the device used to house bulbs. If you're using CHEs, you probably have them installed in a lamp?

[scales.jp]

Why the hockeysticks does *no one* make a heat mat with an integrated thermostat?

We have those in Japan. Unfortunately I didn't find out until after buying a regular mat and thermostat, but I bought one anyway as it's perfect for sliding under a tub with no fuss regarding probes. Not sure if it's a thermostat as such, but it has a temperature control dial so it won't get any hotter than the desired setting. I just set it a few degrees on the low side and monitor the surface temp with a thermometer now and again. Maybe you can find something similar wherever you are.

https://www.w-monster.com/Reptile_Supplies_content/Panel_Heatings/info_pic/multipanelheater_info.htm