3mo boa vomited and now in water bowl

[Bradisa]

Hi all,
2 days ago I picked up a female boa from a guy who had 3 that were 3 months old. All were active, handled well, and looked healthy. They'd all eaten 2 days prior. One of them was starting shed and so I assume mine is not far behind.
When I brought her home, I should have let her acclimate to her new home, but my kids were very excited and spent some time holding her. And to make things worse, it was a fairly cold day.
She later vomited up the mouse from 2 days prior. It wasn't just regurg I believe because half of it looked and smelled like feces.
I put her in her enclosure - the temps on each end are 88° & 78°, humidity at 30% (I spray water on the heated rock to raise it from the current 20% humidity).
She's been camped out in the water bowl for 2 days. Waters clean; no sign of mites. Eyes are still clear but I do believe a shed is imminent.
I don't want to over think this and I don't see other signs of concern - she is alert and tracks my hand when I reach in. She does move around in the bowl. But the vomiting has me concerned.
First, how long should I wait before trying to feed her, considering she vomited 2 days ago, which means her last meal prior was about 12 days ago?
Second, if she's just hanging in the water because of the shed, should I move the bowl over to (or closer to) the warm end? She feels so cold and when I move her to the warm side she waits about 10 minutes and then returns to the bowl.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

[richardhind]

Some boas like to soak, but can be mites so keep an eye out or if its too warm in there, temps look fine you posted, the regurg could of been traveling with a full stomach to yours as well as the extra handling , could of really done with putting her straight away but easier said than done with young kids, try leave her a week before another feed with no handling if possible and hope she Will settle down
Good luck and don’t forget the pics

[craigafrechette]

A) the regurge came from the stress of moving, but primarily the handling once moved. It is VERY important to not feed for 2 weeks after a regurge. It can be very harsh on the snakes insides and feeding again too soon can be detrimental and dangerous.

B) if you're talking about a heat rock inside the enclosure PLEASE for the love of all reptiles remove it IMMEDIATELY. Those things are almost the worst thing you can use for snakes. They can spike to temps of upwards of 120 degrees and cause very serious burns or even kill the snake.

C) How are you heating the enclosure? ALL heat sources should be regulated by a thermostat to prevent dangerous heat spikes.

D) your humidity is definitely low, especially for a young snake who is probably coming into shed. That's probably the reason the snake is soaking.

E) I seriously suggest holding off on handling until the snake has eaten three consecutive meals without refusal. Your snake's health should be top priority. You will have 20+ years to handle the snake if kept properly, let it get acclimated and eating properly.

[Bradisa]

Fantastic advice from you both, thank you so much.
Rock is now unplugged. I had heard mixed info re: digestion and other benefits, but it's not compelling enough to ignore such emphatic advice from you here. I'm only leaving it in so I have a surface to spray with water to get the humidity up from 20-25% to around 45-55%. But it's no longer generating any heat. Once I get a humidifier I'll yank it and never put it back in!
Overhead lamp is actually providing good heat. It's a exo terra night bulb, and I've got an led lamp which is on during the day, but that doesn't add any heat. I've got the thermostat ordered, but the gauges show it steady at 85-88 degrees and I'm checking it multiple times per day just to be safe.
She shat in the water, and I thoroughly cleaned the bowl and replaced the water but she hasn't returned since.
She's alert, moves around well, and by all indications seems to be ok, but I will wait a couple weeks, and let her settle in before trying to feed. And for sure she'll stay undisturbed until after your suggested three meals. Great advice.
Very glad to have found this site! I really appreciate the fast response. It definitely helps calm the nerves.

[craigafrechette]

Fantastic advice from you both, thank you so much.
Rock is now unplugged. I had heard mixed info re: digestion and other benefits, but it's not compelling enough to ignore such emphatic advice from you here. I'm only leaving it in so I have a surface to spray with water to get the humidity up from 20-25% to around 45-55%. But it's no longer generating any heat. Once I get a humidifier I'll yank it and never put it back in!
Overhead lamp is actually providing good heat. It's a exo terra night bulb, and I've got an led lamp which is on during the day, but that doesn't add any heat. I've got the thermostat ordered, but the gauges show it steady at 85-88 degrees and I'm checking it multiple times per day just to be safe.
She shat in the water, and I thoroughly cleaned the bowl and replaced the water but she hasn't returned since.
She's alert, moves around well, and by all indications seems to be ok, but I will wait a couple weeks, and let her settle in before trying to feed. And for sure she'll stay undisturbed until after your suggested three meals. Great advice.
Very glad to have found this site! I really appreciate the fast response. It definitely helps calm the nerves.

Sounds Good! Not to nitpick, just trying to make keeping your snake easier and more enjoyable...
When you say gauges are you referring to the stick on analogs? If so, I suggest replacing those as well because they are wildly inaccurate. I use Accurite brand digital thermometer and hygrometer combos. They're around $10 @ Wal-Mart and far more accurate.

And I promise, once you get all your equipment dialed in it gets super easy. Just check equipment daily to ensure it's functioning properly and then basic spot cleaning, water changes and monthly enclosure cleanings.

[bigsnakegirl785]

In addition to what everyone else said, I raise humidity by using a high humidity bedding like EcoEarth (or really any coco product), sphagnum moss, etc. and just pouring water directly into it. You can spray until your arm goes numb and a hand sprayer won't do much for your humidity. You could get a pump sprayer, but why waste time waiting for it to empty? I have a video I can link if you want a visual. It's not very good, just meant as a demonstration, I've never been good at videos. XD

I have not had luck with aspen, cypress mulch, or ReptiBark when it comes to humidity. Cypress actively repels water once it dries, and I believe much the same happens with ReptiBark as I've even soaked it in a bucket of water overnight without any luck. Aspen just molds too easily and needs to be changed often because of that, and it tends to suck the moisture from the air.

As far as her being cold, she will feel cold to the touch since our body temp is much higher than her's, so long as her temps are good, she's good.

[Bradisa]

Again, just blown away with the helpfulness and great advice. I returned the rock to Petco, and they guy helping me started asking a bunch of questions. To my surprise he started making suggestions 100% consistent with what you've stated here. He told me to get rid of the aspen, and to get a bag each of cypress mulch and coconut fiber, and create a 50/50 mixture, and to add water to it, which I did. So bigsnakegirl785, you were right with the EcoEarth, and if I encounter the same water repelling issue you describe with the cypress, I'll just stop using it and go with straight EcoEarth. But now the humidity is around 70%. Please post the video - I am sure it will be educational for me!
craigafrechette, to answer your questions, I have the dual analog gauges but I will definitely get what you recommended.

The rock, although unplugged, must have been absorbing and holding some of the heat, because after removing it, the temp dropped to around 80; So, to ensure proper heat, should I use a UTH, and have both the UTH and overhead lamp thermostatically controlled?

[IDvsEGO]

Again, just blown away with the helpfulness and great advice. I returned the rock to Petco, and they guy helping me started asking a bunch of questions. To my surprise he started making suggestions 100% consistent with what you've stated here. He told me to get rid of the aspen, and to get a bag each of cypress mulch and coconut fiber, and create a 50/50 mixture, and to add water to it, which I did.
my petco has a "reptile person" that seemed to know a lot more about them than I expected. My Petsmart does not. Guess it is a policy.


So, to ensure proper heat, should I use a UTH, and have both the UTH and overhead lamp thermostatically controlled?
that is a pretty popular setup. Some use the UTH only. Just be sure it is all on a thermostat like you said.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Here's the video. The close up bit is to show you oversaturated bedding vs properly dampened bedding.

1O-JNnS6XfM

[craigafrechette]

I like using a UTH & heat bulb setup for my glass enclosures. The UTH is there solely to provide a hot spot and isn't there for ambient temps. I set my UTH to provide a hot spot of 89-90 measured with a temp gun DIRECTLY on the glass, because your snake can and will burrow to the glass. Substrate is only 1/4" thick over UTH. Then I use the heat lamp to achieve ambient temps and a heat gradient.

Both pieces of heating equipment are controlled by thermostats. It takes a little yrial and error to get everything dialed in, but once you've got it set up and dialed in the equipment does the work for you. Then just check equipment daily and check temps with your temp gun, clean as needed and you're good to go. Less time worrying, more time enjoying your pet. The equipment maintains the temps even as the room temps fluctuate, no worrying about burns, and you've got a healthy, climate controlled enclosure.

[Bradisa]

awesome, thanks!

[Bradisa]

OK, I made a temporary opaque hide for her. I noticed she would pop her head out whenever she saw movement in front of the glass. Encouraged by this, and interpreting it as hunger or at least feeling better, I gave it another try. She ate!
I'm so relieved, and I know I was probably overly concerned. But thank you to you all for your advice. I look forward to spending more time on this site with all of the valuable input. Hopefully one day I'll be able to help someone else like I've been helped.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g-whngQ1TP_J3Url8RMp4OvsjWYDhn6v/view?usp=sharing
Oh, and yes, I am replacing the gauges with digital, and the entire setup - including the hide and that lovely wallpaper wrap - is just temporary!

[craigafrechette]

Awesome!!! Keep up the good work!!

[bigsnakegirl785]

OK, I made a temporary opaque hide for her. I noticed she would pop her head out whenever she saw movement in front of the glass. Encouraged by this, and interpreting it as hunger or at least feeling better, I gave it another try. She ate!
I'm so relieved, and I know I was probably overly concerned. But thank you to you all for your advice. I look forward to spending more time on this site with all of the valuable input. Hopefully one day I'll be able to help someone else like I've been helped.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g-whngQ1TP_J3Url8RMp4OvsjWYDhn6v/view?usp=sharing
Oh, and yes, I am replacing the gauges with digital, and the entire setup - including the hide and that lovely wallpaper wrap - is just temporary!

That's a rather large meal, especially for a boa that recently regurgitated, I might try stepping down a size or two next time you feed her, you want something roughly equal to their girth that leaves little to no discernible difference in girth immediately after swallowing. Keep us updated on how she does! I'm a little worried she may regurgitate again, considering the size of meal you gave her. Normally, you want to feed something half the size of a normal meal for the first meal or two after a regurge (I thought someone had already recommended that, but looking back that isn't the case), and that mouse is already larger than what I'd normally feed my boas.

[EL Ziggy]

I agree with BSG. That meal does look a little large for your snake especially after a regurge. I'd also offer a smaller feeder. I'm glad he ate for you though. :)

[Bradisa]

I feel terrible. Of course that should have been obvious, just from common sense. I'm happy to report back that she's doing well, moving around a bit but mostly keeping to the warm side. I'm not handling her at all - just letting her continue to acclimate, and now digest. Also, I'm not going to keep feeding her live mice but that's what she was used to. I will find smaller live mice for now until I transition her over to F/T. But I think I should do that later, considering the bumpy ride I've caused her thus far. What do you think?

[bigsnakegirl785]

I feel terrible. Of course that should have been obvious, just from common sense. I'm happy to report back that she's doing well, moving around a bit but mostly keeping to the warm side. I'm not handling her at all - just letting her continue to acclimate, and now digest. Also, I'm not going to keep feeding her live mice but that's what she was used to. I will find smaller live mice for now until I transition her over to F/T. But I think I should do that later, considering the bumpy ride I've caused her thus far. What do you think?

I'd just go ahead and offer f/t. Boas generally are not picky, and should switch over with no more effort than offering a f/t prey item to them.

[Bradisa]

Thanks again everyone for your help and advice. She's got hardly a bump and so she'll poo soon. But since it was so large of a meal I am going to wait a few days and just go off her behavior, and then I'll see how she does with a F/T hopper.
I'm sure I'm going to make more mistakes, but I'm glad this site is here to get all of your helpful input! Thanks!!!

[TeamSlitherin]

I feel terrible. Of course that should have been obvious, just from common sense. I'm happy to report back that she's doing well, moving around a bit but mostly keeping to the warm side. I'm not handling her at all - just letting her continue to acclimate, and now digest. Also, I'm not going to keep feeding her live mice but that's what she was used to. I will find smaller live mice for now until I transition her over to F/T. But I think I should do that later, considering the bumpy ride I've caused her thus far. What do you think?

No need to feel bad; you didn't know! You're little one will bounce right back. You've obviously done a great job of taking advice, so you'll learn some things as you go. They're really very hardy beasts. You could probably go straight to f/t, as boas rarely refuse food. Just be sure to warm it up to about 100 degrees. A smaller meal every 7 days is sufficient for even a young boa. Aim for 10-15% of body weight.

Good luck!

[Bradisa]

Ok so just so I know that I have the type of boa that I think I have, could you look and confirm that I have a b.c.i.?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rsihrhirspndkw3/20180305_175544.jpg
And just because the color might be Misleading, here's another pic under different light.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2i4typkrbfpxn7/20180305_175655.jpg.
Thanks!

[bigsnakegirl785]

No need to feel bad; you didn't know! You're little one will bounce right back. You've obviously done a great job of taking advice, so you'll learn some things as you go. They're really very hardy beasts. You could probably go straight to f/t, as boas rarely refuse food. Just be sure to warm it up to about 100 degrees. A smaller meal every 7 days is sufficient for even a young boa. Aim for 10-15% of body weight.

Good luck!

10-15% is power feeding, I'd aim for below 10%. The Munsen plan was developed for corn snakes, to get them to breeding size faster. It is not a universal feeding regimen for every species of any age. I don't feed based off of weight, but my meals generally sit around 6-8% for juveniles and 2-6% for adults. This is giving them meals that are roughly the size of their girth that either leave a barely noticeable bulge or none at all, and can be as small as 3/4 of their girth for adults.

Ok so just so I know that I have the type of boa that I think I have, could you look and confirm that I have a b.c.i.?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rsihrhirspndkw3/20180305_175544.jpg
And just because the color might be Misleading, here's another pic under different light.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2i4typkrbfpxn7/20180305_175655.jpg.
Thanks!

Yup, 100% BI (previously BCI, but they are now their own species).

[Aaron_S]

No need to feel bad; you didn't know! You're little one will bounce right back. You've obviously done a great job of taking advice, so you'll learn some things as you go. They're really very hardy beasts. You could probably go straight to f/t, as boas rarely refuse food. Just be sure to warm it up to about 100 degrees. A smaller meal every 7 days is sufficient for even a young boa. Aim for 10-15% of body weight.

Good luck!

Follow this great advice!

Ok so just so I know that I have the type of boa that I think I have, could you look and confirm that I have a b.c.i.?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rsihrhirspndkw3/20180305_175544.jpg
And just because the color might be Misleading, here's another pic under different light.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2i4typkrbfpxn7/20180305_175655.jpg.
Thanks!

Yup. Exactly what you have.

10-15% is power feeding, I'd aim for below 10%. The Munsen plan was developed for corn snakes, to get them to breeding size faster. It is not a universal feeding regimen for every species of any age. I don't feed based off of weight, but my meals generally sit around 6-8% for juveniles and 2-6% for adults. This is giving them meals that are roughly the size of their girth that either leave a barely noticeable bulge or none at all, and can be as small as 3/4 of their girth for adults.



Yup, 100% BI (previously BCI, but they are now their own species).

You're still underfeeding your snakes?

[bigsnakegirl785]

You're still underfeeding your snakes?

You still overfeeding your's? Considering my boas are all of good weight, and the ones that are growing are growing well, no plateauing or regression now that they're in my care and being fed again, I don't really tend to lean towards your feeding regimen. If I was underfeeding my adults, my adult ghost male would not have gained 200 grams while in my care (though I haven't measured him to see if that's from length growth or just weight gain), and my jungle female would have lost a significant amount of weight over the almost 2 years I've had her.

[Aaron_S]

10-15% is power feeding, I'd aim for below 10%. The Munsen plan was developed for corn snakes, to get them to breeding size faster. It is not a universal feeding regimen for every species of any age. I don't feed based off of weight, but my meals generally sit around 6-8% for juveniles and 2-6% for adults. This is giving them meals that are roughly the size of their girth that either leave a barely noticeable bulge or none at all, and can be as small as 3/4 of their girth for adults.


You still overfeeding your's? Considering my boas are all of good weight, and the ones that are growing are growing well, no plateauing or regression now that they're in my care and being fed again, I don't really tend to lean towards your feeding regimen. If I was underfeeding my adults, my adult ghost male would not have gained 200 grams while in my care (though I haven't measured him to see if that's from length growth or just weight gain), and my jungle female would have lost a significant amount of weight over the almost 2 years I've had her.

I re-quoted your previous comment because I wanted to highlight my point.

You and your animals have popped up on BOI boards and there's a large amount of people who believe you underfeed and want to find a way to take your animals from you.

But whatever, I want to point out a few things about feeding snakes.

Snakes are predators. Same as babies in other species, they need to grow a lot in their first year to be able to sustain themselves, protect themselves and get the right amount of brain development, etc. Feeding them what you're suggesting is downright starvation.

For the record, if we take a 40 gram baby boa and feed it the max weight you suggest of 8% of weight it means you're offering a prey item 3.2 grams! That's a pinky or fuzzy mouse AT BEST! Babies should actually be feed more appropriate sized items closer to 20% their body weight.

Now in your next example you suggest adults 2 - 6% of body weight.

Let's take a 2500 gram adult boa/python. That is 50 grams to 150 grams. You're SUGGESTING people should feed rat weanlings to adult fricking boas! HOW IS THIS NOT UNDERFEEDING?! Especially since you recommend to feed this only once every 3 weeks!

My animals, even my boas, grow at a smooth and regular growth rate. There's no overfeeding done. If there was I'd have been breeding my female suriname by now.

[Andy_G]

I re-quoted your previous comment because I wanted to highlight my point.

You and your animals have popped up on BOI boards and there's a large amount of people who believe you underfeed and want to find a way to take your animals from you.

But whatever, I want to point out a few things about feeding snakes.

Snakes are predators. Same as babies in other species, they need to grow a lot in their first year to be able to sustain themselves, protect themselves and get the right amount of brain development, etc. Feeding them what you're suggesting is downright starvation.

For the record, if we take a 40 gram baby boa and feed it the max weight you suggest of 8% of weight it means you're offering a prey item 3.2 grams! That's a pinky or fuzzy mouse AT BEST! Babies should actually be feed more appropriate sized items closer to 20% their body weight.

Now in your next example you suggest adults 2 - 6% of body weight.

Let's take a 2500 gram adult boa/python. That is 50 grams to 150 grams. You're SUGGESTING people should feed rat weanlings to adult fricking boas! HOW IS THIS NOT UNDERFEEDING?! Especially since you recommend to feed this only once every 3 weeks!

My animals, even my boas, grow at a smooth and regular growth rate. There's no overfeeding done. If there was I'd have been breeding my female suriname by now.

Objectively, I'm inclined to agree with the above.

Now I'm going to take my moderator hat off for a second...

Subjectively, I have to say that it's pretty insulting for you, BSG, to insinuate that Aaron is feeding his animals incorrectly when it's pretty clear that you've had issues in the past that weren't dealt with accordingly. I've known this guy for almost 17 years now and can say without question that he's much more experienced and knowledgeable than you appear to be and has excellent practices that many should follow. He also doesn't have his heels stuck in and is open to constructive criticism if what's being said actually makes sense and isn't just ripped from a book or the internet. At this point, you simply have a very strong opinion that you can't back up. Unbelievable.

[Bradisa]

Aaron, Andy, you may be right, and my exposure to all the folks here is limited, but I am grateful to BSG for helping to calm my nerves.
I think that one of the greatest benefits with a forum is the ability to receive multiple opinions across the gamut. Not knowing any history, I have to accept that you have had prior experiences which shape your current position toward some who post here, and so I'm going to stay out of it. However, I for one felt as though I received some good advice from her related to my concerns.
That being said...
My girl seems to swung 180 degrees from not eating to appearing to be constantly anticipating food. I have been careful to reach in with my hand fully open (fingers together) and take her out regularly for short periods, but the moment I approach her viv, she looks ready to pounce.
Still awaiting my F/T which should arrive tmrw, so I've been giving her live hoppers which leave hardly a bulge. And maybe I've overindulged her but she's had 3 in the last 8 days, seemingly all too eager to feed.
Once the F/T's arrive, I want to set her up on a good schedule, but it seems I should not be going off of her cues, as she seems willing to eat at any time. I'll keep perusing the forum but if you have a basic rule of thumb )which seems to differ from BSG) please let me know.
Thanks again!

[Aaron_S]

Aaron, Andy, you may be right, and my exposure to all the folks here is limited, but I am grateful to BSG for helping to calm my nerves.
I think that one of the greatest benefits with a forum is the ability to receive multiple opinions across the gamut. Not knowing any history, I have to accept that you have had prior experiences which shape your current position toward some who post here, and so I'm going to stay out of it. However, I for one felt as though I received some good advice from her related to my concerns.
That being said...
My girl seems to swung 180 degrees from not eating to appearing to be constantly anticipating food. I have been careful to reach in with my hand fully open (fingers together) and take her out regularly for short periods, but the moment I approach her viv, she looks ready to pounce.
Still awaiting my F/T which should arrive tmrw, so I've been giving her live hoppers which leave hardly a bulge. And maybe I've overindulged her but she's had 3 in the last 8 days, seemingly all too eager to feed.
Once the F/T's arrive, I want to set her up on a good schedule, but it seems I should not be going off of her cues, as she seems willing to eat at any time. I'll keep perusing the forum but if you have a basic rule of thumb )which seems to differ from BSG) please let me know.
Thanks again!

I am happy you've gotten good advice from BSG. I disagree vehemently with her feeding advice but she does give some other good pointers and I'm not against giving credit where it's due.

As for your snake, you're correct in not going off her cues. Snakes are built to be opportunistic feeders. Quite often they will eat when offered because their built to eat when possible as they don't know when the next meal is coming.

A hopper mouse is fine, I'd goto an adult mouse once a week for the time being.

As for handling, good idea. You can use something like a snake hook to tap the snake gently on the head or back and it usually pulls a snake out of "feeding/hunting mode".

[bigsnakegirl785]

I re-quoted your previous comment because I wanted to highlight my point.

You and your animals have popped up on BOI boards and there's a large amount of people who believe you underfeed and want to find a way to take your animals from you.

But whatever, I want to point out a few things about feeding snakes.

Snakes are predators. Same as babies in other species, they need to grow a lot in their first year to be able to sustain themselves, protect themselves and get the right amount of brain development, etc. Feeding them what you're suggesting is downright starvation.

For the record, if we take a 40 gram baby boa and feed it the max weight you suggest of 8% of weight it means you're offering a prey item 3.2 grams! That's a pinky or fuzzy mouse AT BEST! Babies should actually be feed more appropriate sized items closer to 20% their body weight.

Now in your next example you suggest adults 2 - 6% of body weight.

Let's take a 2500 gram adult boa/python. That is 50 grams to 150 grams. You're SUGGESTING people should feed rat weanlings to adult fricking boas! HOW IS THIS NOT UNDERFEEDING?! Especially since you recommend to feed this only once every 3 weeks!

My animals, even my boas, grow at a smooth and regular growth rate. There's no overfeeding done. If there was I'd have been breeding my female suriname by now.

If it was a 40 gram newborn baby that's one thing...but the smallest baby boa I've gotten was 80 grams, eating a hopper mouse every 10-14 days. Which falls within the 6-8% I quote. 20% is power feeding, that is 2x the girth of a baby boa. I have fed meals 10-15% of their weight, and it leaves a very large bulge with scale separation, which is against what Vin Russo suggests.

A 2,500 gram boa is not an adult, unless it's a dwarf. My adults are 4,000-6,000 grams and get a large rat 150-275 grams. Or a 1/2 rabbit. My smallest adult is ~1,100-1,200 grams and gets a small rat 45-80 grams, which is closer to 3.75-7% of his weight. He gets one of those every 3 weeks. He has gained 200 grams in my care, and his weird shaped head that I suspect may have been from undernourishment from his previous owners is starting to look like a normal boa head. He would not be gaining weight and body tone if my feeding regimen was starving him.

As far as my babies, they are also growing quite well. They aren't the monster 5'-6' yearlings, but they're healthy. I would be glad to set up a thread with their progress if you want to see, but I'm not going to clog up this person's thread with your unfounded issues.

I am feeding the way other, more experienced boa keepers have advised me to feed them, and I continue to feed them this way because the 4-5 years I've been feeding my boas in this way has yielded good results. You can think it's underfeeding all you want, but it's only underfeeding if you view obese 5' 1 year olds and 6' 2 year olds already breeding as the norm. My young boas are well on their way to becoming normal-sized adults, but still have another 2-3 years of growth before they hit adult sizes, as it should be.

Objectively, I'm inclined to agree with the above.

Now I'm going to take my moderator hat off for a second...

Subjectively, I have to say that it's pretty insulting for you, BSG, to insinuate that Aaron is feeding his animals incorrectly when it's pretty clear that you've had issues in the past that weren't dealt with accordingly. I've known this guy for almost 17 years now and can say without question that he's much more experienced and knowledgeable than you appear to be and has excellent practices that many should follow. He also doesn't have his heels stuck in and is open to constructive criticism if what's being said actually makes sense and isn't just ripped from a book or the internet. At this point, you simply have a very strong opinion that you can't back up. Unbelievable.

Which issues are you attributing to underfeeding? The only issues I've had were related to a trailer with such bad air quality it had to be condemned, that caused health issues in a few (not all) of my snakes, our cats, and ourselves. If there are other issues you've seen, I'd be glad to hear them, as neither me nor my vet have been able to determine them.

I do also want to add, that all the snakes (including Cloud now thank goodness) are improving now that they're out of that trailer. Cloud is the only remaining snake that I have any worries about health issues, and he's coming around. Slowly, but surely.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Also I really wish the people willing to take my snakes off of my hands would have come forward when I was trying to rehome everyone last year. But instead, I got to stuff 6 snakes in a tiny trailer room last-minute because my mother was incapable of properly caring for them for me and literally no one. NO ONE. Besides the kind SerpentineDream here, came forward to take a single other snake off of my hands. I wanted them to go good homes rather than force them through the stress of the emergency move that came once the trailer literally started collapsing in on itself. But those "kind" people that are underhandedly trying to take my snakes away? Where were they when I did need someone to take them?

[Aaron_S]

If it was a 40 gram newborn baby that's one thing...but the smallest baby boa I've gotten was 80 grams, eating a hopper mouse every 10-14 days. Which falls within the 6-8% I quote. 20% is power feeding, that is 2x the girth of a baby boa. I have fed meals 10-15% of their weight, and it leaves a very large bulge with scale separation, which is against what Vin Russo suggests.

A 2,500 gram boa is not an adult, unless it's a dwarf. My adults are 4,000-6,000 grams and get a large rat 150-275 grams. Or a 1/2 rabbit. My smallest adult is ~1,100-1,200 grams and gets a small rat 45-80 grams, which is closer to 3.75-7% of his weight. He gets one of those every 3 weeks. He has gained 200 grams in my care, and his weird shaped head that I suspect may have been from undernourishment from his previous owners is starting to look like a normal boa head. He would not be gaining weight and body tone if my feeding regimen was starving him.

As far as my babies, they are also growing quite well. They aren't the monster 5'-6' yearlings, but they're healthy. I would be glad to set up a thread with their progress if you want to see, but I'm not going to clog up this person's thread with your unfounded issues.

I am feeding the way other, more experienced boa keepers have advised me to feed them, and I continue to feed them this way because the 4-5 years I've been feeding my boas in this way has yielded good results. You can think it's underfeeding all you want, but it's only underfeeding if you view obese 5' 1 year olds and 6' 2 year olds already breeding as the norm. My young boas are well on their way to becoming normal-sized adults, but still have another 2-3 years of growth before they hit adult sizes, as it should be.



Which issues are you attributing to underfeeding? The only issues I've had were related to a trailer with such bad air quality it had to be condemned, that caused health issues in a few (not all) of my snakes, our cats, and ourselves. If there are other issues you've seen, I'd be glad to hear them, as neither me nor my vet have been able to determine them.

I do also want to add, that all the snakes (including Cloud now thank goodness) are improving now that they're out of that trailer. Cloud is the only remaining snake that I have any worries about health issues, and he's coming around. Slowly, but surely.

So your original question was I still overfeeding my snakes. When I recommend my feeding regime it's for pretty much every species. I've tested it out on boas, pythons, colubrids and since I own all three currently which one would you like to discuss?

So for me a 2500 gram animal is an adult ball python. why would I feed her a 50 gram rat once every 3 weeks?

If you want to strictly talk about boas we can do that. All of mine, from sonoran hypos to amazon tree boas, grow at a moderate rate. None have ever reached this obese state you speak of with 5 feet of growth in a year and are breeding. Even my males aren't breeding ready by year 1.

My female albino BI is pushing 6000 grams but she's about 7 years old now. She's fed on a 4 week schedule because her meals are 600 ish grams and well that's a fair sized meal so we space them out.

Now I can certainly see where your animals on your feeding regime would be gaining weight considering they hadn't eaten in what did you say? 4 months? Of course they'd put on weight if they never really drank water, ate or had adequate heating. You're lucky you have boas and not harder to keep species.

I will FOREVER disagree with your statement. I know a few boa breeders myself and they are completely different than you with great success over a long period of time. They also don't see animals get to 5 foot in a year or grow to this obese state you speak of.


Also I really wish the people willing to take my snakes off of my hands would have come forward when I was trying to rehome everyone last year. But instead, I got to stuff 6 snakes in a tiny trailer room last-minute because my mother was incapable of properly caring for them for me and literally no one. NO ONE. Besides the kind SerpentineDream here, came forward to take a single other snake off of my hands. I wanted them to go good homes rather than force them through the stress of the emergency move that came once the trailer literally started collapsing in on itself. But those "kind" people that are underhandedly trying to take my snakes away? Where were they when I did need someone to take them?


I can't speak for other people specifically but what I can do is say maybe they weren't on this forum, maybe they didn't see your cry for help or maybe, like me, lived in a different country and didn't want to deal with CITES. The pics that were referenced were posts of yours with one of your 2 year old snakes in the palm of your hand and you thought it's growth was just fine. I won't get into your personal issues at this time because that's something people go through and sometimes we can't foresee how bad things get and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[bigsnakegirl785]

So your original question was I still overfeeding my snakes. When I recommend my feeding regime it's for pretty much every species. I've tested it out on boas, pythons, colubrids and since I own all three currently which one would you like to discuss?

So for me a 2500 gram animal is an adult ball python. why would I feed her a 50 gram rat once every 3 weeks?

If you want to strictly talk about boas we can do that. All of mine, from sonoran hypos to amazon tree boas, grow at a moderate rate. None have ever reached this obese state you speak of with 5 feet of growth in a year and are breeding. Even my males aren't breeding ready by year 1.

My female albino BI is pushing 6000 grams but she's about 7 years old now. She's fed on a 4 week schedule because her meals are 600 ish grams and well that's a fair sized meal so we space them out.

Now I can certainly see where your animals on your feeding regime would be gaining weight considering they hadn't eaten in what did you say? 4 months? Of course they'd put on weight if they never really drank water, ate or had adequate heating. You're lucky you have boas and not harder to keep species.

I will FOREVER disagree with your statement. I know a few boa breeders myself and they are completely different than you with great success over a long period of time. They also don't see animals get to 5 foot in a year or grow to this obese state you speak of.





I can't speak for other people specifically but what I can do is say maybe they weren't on this forum, maybe they didn't see your cry for help or maybe, like me, lived in a different country and didn't want to deal with CITES. The pics that were referenced were posts of yours with one of your 2 year old snakes in the palm of your hand and you thought it's growth was just fine. I won't get into your personal issues at this time because that's something people go through and sometimes we can't foresee how bad things get and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I figured if you were gonna ask me if I was underfeeding, I'd ask you if you were overfeeding. I haven't gotten an explanation as to what you consider successful when raising boas, I'm sure your boas are surviving just fine, and may breed for you just fine. But I'm not sure how long you've been keeping boas, or how old your oldest boa has been. Beyond the 10-15% rule, I haven't seen much of your feeding regimen. I do not view 10-15% as a universal rule, it seems dangerously close to power feeding to me. 10-15% (and as much as 20% or the occasional 30%) is fine for retics, but idk if I'd use it for bps. You're more experienced with that species than I am, so I'll trust your judgment on the beeps at least, I just don't like the idea of such large meals being the go-to regimen for every species as it's become over the past few years.

This thread was specifically on boa constrictors, and my experience lies mostly with boa constrictors. Ball pythons are not related or pertinent in this discussion, but I agree 50 grams is a little small for a 2,500 gram bp.

As for my boas, no, they went a total of 2.5 months without food. 4 months was actually the total amount of time they spent with my mother. The first 1.5-2 months of that time, I was going over to her house and feeding them when I was able to make the trip to feed them, but during the feeding days I couldn't make it out there, she wouldn't feed them for me. So, they skipped several feedings, and that still probably slowed down their growth as well.

At the time I also had 2 BRBs, 2 garters, a ball python, and a retic. She was giving them water at first, and spraying down their enclosures, so they weren't dehydrated for very long before I went and got them out of there. (Whereupon SD offered to care for my ball python, the albino garter, and my last remaining BRB.) She stopped watering them after she let Crona and Homura escape their tubs, and told me she'd refuse to take care of them any longer for me. Homura is gone, but she found Crona quickly and I still have him.

The growth I mentioned has seemed to be about the norm lately from what I've been seeing in boa groups. To be fair, historically, I've seen much better (slightly slower) growth in most boa breeders/keepers in the past. I have just been seeing more and more rapidly growing boas as of late, which could just simply be observational bias, but does still worry me such overfeeding has become the norm.

As far as the last bit in your reply, I posted ads on Tumblr and Facebook as well as on here. I mostly got comments along the lines of "if I was closer I'd help!" or just flat-out silence.

Which 2 year old snake are you referring to that could fit in my palm? I don't have a 2 year old snake that can fit in the palm of my hand, other than my eastern garter snake (who is almost 5 and supposed to be that small). My 2 year old anery motley boa male just turned 2 years last month, so he couldn't have been much over 1.5 years old when I posted those ads. He is more the size of my entire hand now. My only other 2 year old at that time/around that time was my hypo BRB, and she was larger than my entire hand. She is the same size as the average 2 year old of the breeder I bought her from, and when other BRB breeders commented on her size, they agreed she was about average-sized for them as well.

I suppose I could have made some posts on Fauna or something, but I didn't like the idea of making an account there at the time when I was ultimately able to squeeze the remaining snakes in at my current residence, and then being a bit downtrodden at the lack of help given on other sites. I don't know how fast those classifieds moved, so I was also worried it might take a long time to get any attention on my threads.

[TRD]

I think one shouldn't generalize feeding schedules ... individual snakes have individual metabolisms which depends on the animal and its environmental variables. One should target a healthy animal representing how it should look... if that can be reached with an 8% weight feeding every 3 weeks in animal A, and a 15% weight feeding every 2 weeks in animal B, and a 10% feeding every 7 days in animal C shouldn't matter.

I have some very active psammophids that are basking at temperatures of 115F and are very active, and milksnakes that wouldn't tolerate such temperatures. Obviously the milksnake can not have the amount of food that the psammophids are having because they'd get obese in no time... the psammophids' metabolism is just so much higher, and they are slim snakes to boot.

I do agree that many boids and pythons are grossly overfed in captivity. These snakes particularly are made for having a large prey sometimes, not small preys all the time. Their whole metabolic system is made for that..

[bigsnakegirl785]

I think one shouldn't generalize feeding schedules ... individual snakes have individual metabolisms which depends on the animal and its environmental variables. One should target a healthy animal representing how it should look... if that can be reached with an 8% weight feeding every 3 weeks in animal A, and a 15% weight feeding every 2 weeks in animal B, and a 10% feeding every 7 days in animal C shouldn't matter.

I have some very active psammophids that are basking at temperatures of 115F and are very active, and milksnakes that wouldn't tolerate such temperatures. Obviously the milksnake can not have the amount of food that the psammophids are having because they'd get obese in no time... the psammophids' metabolism is just so much higher, and they are slim snakes to boot.

I do agree that many boids and pythons are grossly overfed in captivity. These snakes particularly are made for having a large prey sometimes, not small preys all the time. Their whole metabolic system is made for that..

15% is beyond some of my snakes’ ability to physically swallow, such as my bp. 15% of his weight would be a 210 gram rat. The largest rat I ever gave him was 160-180 grams, and he struggled to get it down. He literally had to push against the wall to force it down his throat. He normally gets a 45-80 gram rat, and anything above that and he begins to refuse food. Those small rats are 3.2-5.7% of his weight. If I feed him mediums, he starts to refuse food after 2 mediums in a row, even when spaced out to 3 weeks.

10% seems to be pretty close to what I feed my young boas, but is on the larger side of what I’d consider acceptable, since even just 10% leaves a noticeable bulge. Each individual has their rate of metabolism, but I’m not sure that necessarily justifies a 15% meal for a boa constrictor.

A larger meal here and there is one thing, but when your normal feeder size is 10-15% (again talking boas here), it is too much food. I don’t consider my meals to be small, they are roughly the same size as the snake’s girth, making them a moderate sized meal. Not small, not large. My juveniles and subadults are allowed to have a slight noticeable bulge, but my adults generally do not have a bulge. Any meals I feed that are larger than normal is followed by a skipped feeding day, and then a smaller meal the next time they eat. A big meal here and there won’t harm them, it’s when you feed them the majority of the time that hidden fat deposits start forming, and their long term health starts to be affected.

[TRD]

Most snakes in captivity are heavily overfed, specifically boids/pythons, almost being kept on colubrid feeding schedules.... 10-15%/2-3 weeks... that's an incredible 260% of the snake's weight per year in feeders. While they need more food during growth, it's very bad to maintain them on such schedules.