Potential first-time snake owner questioning morality

[Avarazac]

Hello! Recently I have become extremely interested in the world of snake ownership. I watch YouTube videos all the time and have become especially enamored with the western hognose - it is just too cute!

I am very tempted to become a snake owner, but I face a moral conundrum. I am a vegetarian because I do not like to purposefully cause harm to animals (and I know straight away that is already a hypocritical thing to say because I am not vegan and still do cause some harm, but do please bare with me). So the idea of having mice gassed to death really bothers me. I saw a video of how it is done, and you can see that they are desperately gasping for air before they fall asleep. It seems like a rather terrifying and potentially painful way to go.

I own a cat that I obviously have to feed meat to, however the difference is the cat was rescued whereas the snake would have been bred. Additional cats are not produced because I rescued mine, whereas purchasing snakes causes additional snakes to be made (supply and demand - I do love me some capitalism). So it feels as though I am intentionally causing mice to suffer because I am paying a breeder to produce a snake for me.

Has anyone else here ever pondered this dilemma? Or am I the only weirdo that thinks about such things?

Thank you very much for your time.

[TRD]

Snakes, unlike humans, are strictly carnivores. There is not immoral about it. From the mouse's perspective it's better to be put to sleep than to be attacked, strangled, and bitten to death, wouldn't you agree?

If you ever life fed a mouse to a snake, you'd agree that gassing them is a heck of a lot more humane.

Snakes will be produced regardless if you buy them, someone else will buy them, and if no-one buys it, it may end up in the breeding group or be used as a feeder itself (snake eat snake world)

[MDT]

Avarazac, perhaps you should rethink owning a carnivorous reptile if you are struggling this much. There are many very interesting herbivorous lizards that would make good pets.

[Avarazac]

Snakes, unlike humans, are strictly carnivores. There is not immoral about it. From the mouse's perspective it's better to be put to sleep than to be attacked, strangled, and bitten to death, wouldn't you agree?

If you ever life fed a mouse to a snake, you'd agree that gassing them is a heck of a lot more humane.

Snakes will be produced regardless if you buy them, someone else will buy them, and if no-one buys it, it may end up in the breeding group or be used as a feeder itself (snake eat snake world)

I agree that it is better to gas a mouse than feed it live to a snake. That completely misses the point I'm making, which is that if we didn't pay breeders to produce these snakes, then we also wouldn't be paying people to produce and kill mice at all.

Snakes will definitely be produced regardless if I buy them, just like cows will be slaughtered even if I don't eat them. However, each person that doesn't eat meat causes there to be slightly less suffering in the world, and combined we cause MUCH less suffering in the world. I imagine the same applies here.

[craigafrechette]

I can see and understand ypur conundrum. Not sure if this will help or not, but whether you are feeding your snake a mouse/week or not, millions of mice are bred and euthanized each year for the sole purpose of prey for snakes. Not trying to be cynical, but you choosing to own a snake or not won't put a dent in that.

Anyway, hognose are amazing little snakes. Ive had mine for almost a year and he's an awesome addition to the family.

Goid luck with your decision.

[Captain837]

Being gassed is probbably less traumatic than being bitten and constricted (the natural way) however you at some point have to come to the realization that for some species their primary purpose is that of being food for other creatures.
It is not cruel, it just is. A wild thing never felt sorry for itself.

[kazz]

Has anyone else here ever pondered this dilemma? Or am I the only weirdo that thinks about such things?

Thank you very much for your time.

your question has 3 pages of answers http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-discussion/115871-feeling-guilty-about-feeding.html

[kudzu]

I am very tempted to become a snake owner, but I face a moral conundrum. I am a vegetarian because I do not like to purposefully cause harm to animals ...

Has anyone else here ever pondered this dilemma? Or am I the only weirdo that thinks about such things?

Am not a vegetarian, but I did ponder this problem a good bit before buying my snake. The short story of my pondering the problem is that I got over it.

After my first batch of mice was delivered, I was rather appalled & wondered why in the world I'd chosen a pet that eats things I would consider a pet. I have dogs & cats that eat meat. Other animals are born, raised & killed to feed them. The same applies to me. The only solution to the problem is for none of us to have pets. Just bought a second snake recently so clearly I didn't choose that. As for buying compared to rescuing, I did check around with rescue/adoption groups that handle reptiles. Some are reptile specific. Others are shelters & humane societies that take in all varieties of unwanted pets. When looking, the snakes I found were all are ball pythons or one of the large boa or python species. That just isn't the type of snake I wanted. However, if that is what you are interested in, I strongly encourage you to seek one out. You can adopt a snake rather than buy one. I decided that for me it was not unethical to buy, but I would only do captive bred. There is also the consideration of husbandry of the parents of the captive bred snakes. I did do some research & didn't find bad things about the sellers, but... Well, that doesn't prove there aren't bad things. If I was going to be truly ethical I would have check that out in person or gotten information on them from a reputable source. In reality, I didn't.

If you want a another philosophical/ethical problem, try considering that plants have just as much right to life as animals. Most harvesting processes are quite damaging to plants, often deadly. Should we restrict our eating only to nuts, berries & vegetables harvested in the least damaging way? Am not saying this to be critical or snotty. It is actually something I've considered.

Again, clearly I have made some peace with the idea of other creatures being bred & then killed just to fee myself and my pets. The majority of living things in some way consume other living things. You just have to decide what is right for you.

[pet_snake_78]

Easy fix, adopt a snake! There are sometimes ball pythons, corns, etc that come up for adoption, just not as many out there as say cats. What about an iguana or uro or tortoise instead of a snake?

[IDvsEGO]

Easy fix, adopt a snake! There are sometimes ball pythons, corns, etc that come up for adoption, just not as many out there as say cats. What about an iguana or uro or tortoise instead of a snake?

Was going to say the same thing. My state has a reptile society that has adoptions all the time. They recently did an event at a local pet store chain. I adopted a sand boa and several ball pythons found new homes as well. You can also check craigslist or join local facebook groups. Plenty of people get snakes for their kids and dont realize the long term commitment they put themselves in.

[Avarazac]

Easy fix, adopt a snake! There are sometimes ball pythons, corns, etc that come up for adoption, just not as many out there as say cats. What about an iguana or uro or tortoise instead of a snake?

Yeah, after I made this post I started looking into the possibility of adopting a snake from someone that didn't have the means or will to take care of it any more. I think this might be a way to get around the issues I'm having with it. I don't think any of my local animal shelters take in reptiles, but I will definitely keep an eye on Craigslist.

Thank you all very much for your replies!

[LightHawk]

Snakes being produced in captivity isn't as bad as you might think.
not that long ago, and in some cases still, snakes are being imported from their native habitat and are sent to various amounts of places around the world.
since a lot of snakes are now being captive bred it reduces pressure on the snakes in the wild.
this is obviously way better for nature as we aren't stripping it of their natural predators.

although I do understand why you wouldn't want to support the suffering of mice, snakes are strictly carnivores.
this doesn't mean however that their arent some alternatives, I believe some species of garter snake are able to live on a diet of fish and worms.
I'm pretty sure there are more alternatives that can survive on other foods than mice.
just make sure you do your research and do whatever you feel comfortable with. :D

[IDvsEGO]

Snakes being produced in captivity isn't as bad as you might think.
not that long ago, and in some cases still, snakes are being imported from their native habitat and are sent to various amounts of places around the world.
since a lot of snakes are now being captive bred it reduces pressure on the snakes in the wild.
this is obviously way better for nature as we aren't stripping it of their natural predators.



better for nature, yes. Breeding of any animal is a way uglier practice than most of us want to admit though. Similar to livestock keeping. I eat meat and keep pets so I am not saying "stop the industry" but I am also not blind to it and try to buy from more responsible sources. As hobbyists we want to think that breeders are lovers of the animals they breed and every hatchling comes out pretty and gets sold to a loving home. The reality is a lot of breeders are in it for the money. It is better for the bottom line to dispose of hatchlings that dont look to be a high demand seller due to morphs, coloration, abnormal markings, or birth defects. Better to toss them or sell them as feeders (which I dont have a problem with) than to feed it and keep it and not be able to sell it for a profit. So captive breeding might be better for the ecosystem but if you are an animal rights type of person, it isn't all that much better. This also goes for all pet breeders. Puppy mills are the same way. But there are some breeders that are open about their practices and some that are even lovers of the creatures they breed.

[pet_snake_78]

Snakes with deformities, IMO, should not be sold because some idiot will try to breed it and if it is genetic, you're only contributing to the likelihood of issues. I would only give them anyway to someone local who I knew had zero interest in breeding and I wouldn't continue a line if it had frequent issues that no environmental explanation could be found for.

[MDT]

As hobbyists we want to think that breeders are lovers of the animals they breed and every hatchling comes out pretty and gets sold to a loving home. The reality is a lot of breeders are in it for the money (really? how many is "a lot"? 50%? 80%?? I have dealt with "a lot" over the years and found that most if not all truly love their animals over any profit they may gain). It is better for the bottom line to dispose of hatchlings that dont look to be a high demand seller due to morphs, coloration, abnormal markings (or, maybe just sell them as "pets" to someone who really wants a reasonably priced snake/lizard/etc and not a high dollar morph) or birth defects (isn't culling humane? they'd be eaten or die in the wild). Better to toss them or sell them as feeders (which I dont have a problem with) than to feed it and keep it and not be able to sell it for a profit. So captive breeding might be better for the ecosystem but if you are an animal rights type of person,(i'm pretty sure most "animal rights" groups would outlaw the ownership of all animals) it isn't all that much better. This also goes for all pet breeders. Puppy mills are the same way. But there are some breeders that are open about their practices and some that are even lovers of the creatures they breed (this kinda contradicts your first postulate, doesn't it?).

that's a pretty broad brush you paint with.

[Noh]

I suggest getting a herbivorous reptile. You never know what could happen.

I thought about my snake for a long time before I purchased her. One of the first questions I asked myself was "am I okay with feeding a snake?" I pretty quickly decided that yes, I was.

Frozen gassed mice are ideal, but you never know. Some snakes refuse to eat pre-killed food, as mine seems to be doing. I had to feed her a live pinkie mouse yesterday just to get her to eat at all. And if I can't get her to switch to frozen/thawed food in the future I'll have to eventually feed her live adult mice.

And I'll have to babysit her while she eats to make sure the mouse doesn't bite her back. I will have to be there when she kills that mouse.

I'm okay with this. Are you?

My sister was not. She knew she would never be okay feeding food "with a face" to a pet, even pre-killed. She bought a crested gecko on the same day I purchased my snake, and is very happy with him. She finds much enjoyment from watching him in his enclosure.

There are plenty of fantastic, interesting reptiles that eat plants and insects. If you decide you want a snake anyway though, I'm sure you'll fine a nice individual to rescue/adopt! c:

[kazz]

So it feels as though I am intentionally causing mice to suffer because I am paying a breeder to produce a snake for me.

But any meat on markets is selling bc ppl buy it. That is how world is made.
You can feed your snake with unhatched birds, there are so many on bird farm and no need kill anyone.

[craigafrechette]

You can feed your snake with unhatched birds, there are so many on bird farm and no need kill anyone.

Please elaborate on this.

[craigafrechette]

You can feed your snake with unhatched birds, there are so many on bird farm and no need kill anyone.

Please elaborate on this.

[kazz]

Please elaborate on this.

When I got my carpet python She was fed with live mice. I have bought frozen baby rats but she didn't eat them. I have to force feed her and then I got unhatched quail and she gladly ate it. After that I have bought 3.7kg unhatched quails. Now I take 4 eggs, thaw them, take bird out of egg and cord them up. Then take my snake and she eat them.

The only thing is buying developed but unhatched eggs.

[daisymaisy]

This may seem counterintuitive, but you could raise your own mice, give them a really good life and then humanely euthanize them yourself. That way you know they've been well treated and painlessly passed on.

I thought this was a great idea, bought three live mice and....now I have three pet mice. I got attached immediately to their cute little faces. So that didn't really work out snake feeding wise and I went back to frozen/thawed. And the mice have their own habitat with tubes and wheels and all that good stuff. They are really cute so what can you do?

[Teedub]

Feed the snake tofu shaped mice

[phenyx]

I recently became the owner of a little brat baby BRB who refuses to eat. Because the breeder started him on live pinkies, I have attempted to continue feeding live pinkies while he's settling in.

After the last unsuccessful feeding attempt, I had to euthanize the pinky (in the freezer) after he ignored it for 48+ hours and it was slowly starving to death. The whole experience tore me up so bad I'm pretty sure I left a horcrux somewhere near the enclosure. I am dreading the next feeding attempt.

My point is that it never occurred to me that I might have to euthanize uneaten live prey items myself. The care sheets don't tell you about that part. They also don't tell you that some snakes never take to F/T rodents and insist on freshly killed prey if they can't have live. In that case, the killing usually falls to the keeper or to the shop that sells the feeders.

Are you prepared to possibly have to kill prey animals yourself in order to feed your snake? Or to walk into a feeder shop and ask the sales person to kill it for you? (I asked my feed shop about that and got a very graphic description of how they kill the feeders and what it does to the bodies of the rodents. I almost tossed my cookies right there in the shop.)

Even if you choose to feed frozen/thawed prey items and your snake takes them, sometimes you have to poke holes in skulls and squeeze out brain matter or slit furry little bellies and pull out guts in order to get stubborn snakes to eat.

I'm being explicit for a reason; you need to know this happens. This isn't a neat and tidy hobby. There has to be killing involved and it isn't always pretty. If you're not willing to do the dirty, sometimes gruesome, work that may be necessary to feed your snake properly for its health, then this is not the hobby for you.

[kazz]

There has to be killing involved and it isn't always pretty.

Everything is easy . Newbies just must buy snake who eats f/t food.