hide box = socialization vs safety

[kazz]

So how do you think a hide box it is a place to feel safety for snakes and it's necessary or no hide box it's a big contribution to socialization for snake ?

I have a hide box and half of it has a heat pad with thermostat (snake lie on a temperature sensor ). I can say that my carpet snake most of time in hide box and really afraid of me and light.
I have asked this question on Ukrainian forum and ppl give me a link on youtube channel where a dude has a 10 carpets and no hide boxes at all.
What is your experience ?

[jjhill001]

So how do you think a hide box it is a place to feel safety for snakes and it's necessary or no hide box it's a big contribution to socialization for snake ?

I have a hide box and half of it has a heat pad with thermostat (snake lie on a temperature sensor ). I can say that my carpet snake most of time in hide box and really afraid of me and light.
I have asked this question on Ukrainian forum and ppl give me a link on youtube channel where a dude has a 10 carpets and no hide boxes at all.
What is your experience ?

What kind of cages are those carpet pythons in?

[DJC Reptiles]

Miss clicked, I do use hide boxes. It is important for any snake to use a hide box so it can feel more secure.

[Jim Smith]

The purpose for the hides is to provide a place for your snake to feel safe and secure. To not provide a hide simply because you want to see you snake more often would suggest that perhaps a snake is not the best choice of animal for you to have. If you really want a snake that is a good "display" animal, then I suggest that you consider one of the aboreal species. Just a thought...

[kazz]

What kind of cages are those carpet pythons in?

this is that guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSKr5eXDSbM

[kazz]

If you really want a snake that is a good "display" animal, then I suggest that you consider one of the aboreal species. Just a thought...

Carpets is arboreal snake. My carpet NEVER lay on a ground. She is on branches always. Too bad carpets out of hide boxes at night only.

[DJC Reptiles]

Carpet pythons aren't known to be completely arboreal. Most carpets are semi arboreal and will spend most of their time on the ground, and some of their time in branches. Keep in mind all snakes have different personalities, so your snake might be more arboreal then others. To not provide a hide box, would be detrimental on your snake's health in the long run because of stress. Stress has been known to cause health problems, and increase risk of respiratory infection and other harmful diseases (Stress reduces the immune system in an animal over time). It is so much easier to just use a hide box, you can make one out of so many things, even a cereal box works well.

[kazz]

Keep in mind all snakes have different personalities, so your snake might be more arboreal then others.
Sure. And I can say about my carpet only. And my carpet go to branches right after stick out her head out of hide box )

I have never see her on a ground.

To not provide a hide box, would be detrimental on your snake's health
And how often I can take my carpet to ma hands ?
When she was 3 month she lay on my palm for hours. How she try escape from my hand every time.

[CameraSkunk]

Kazz it might not be an attempt to escape your hands and be more that she is used to you more now and with that she is more adventurous. She may now also be more willing to explore. Like was said by one of the other members it could be her personality is inquisitive. Just a thought, but I think it would depend on her behavior. If shes quick about it, snapping at you, hissing. That could be annoyance and desire to escape/be left alone. If its slower movement, looking around. That could be interest and adventure.

I'm new to snakes but what I've seen in video and research makes me think that we don't give credit to the intelligence of these animals as much as perhaps we should. Animals in general will be driven by food and desire to survive first. If belly is full, and they feel safe perhaps there is exploration on her mind.

[kazz]

If shes quick about it, snapping at you, hissing.
She hiss if she in shed and I disturbed her and never do if I take her to my hands.
we don't give credit to the intelligence of these animals as much as perhaps we should. Animals in general will be driven by food and desire to survive first. If belly is full, and they feel safe perhaps there is exploration on her mind.
they say snake is no such smart as mammals.

[jjhill001]

I would certainly say that its a question worth asking, perhaps worth exploring.

I'm going to break up my reply into several parts.

1st are observations on this gentleman's enclosures.

-While there aren't any hides inside them, the majority of the cage space is dimly lit aside from the basking spot area. Only one side of these cages is transparent. Meaning the top and sides do not have light coming through (beside the basking light)

2nd what do we know about snakes?

The most important thing to a snake is security, after that is temperature and finally food and water.

3rd compare those factors to the enclosures in the video.

The enclosures are "sorta" secure in that they are dimly lit and only see through on one side. So in a way the need fo security is suboptimally met in my opinion.

(To forum vets, I would like to point out that almost none of his snakes are utilizing that hotspot if any remember that thread)

4th is the big maybe

We've seen huge strides being made in what is, in my opinion the domestication of water monitors over at the NERD facility is currently underway.

The same methods that NERD employs are anti-thesis to what we know about reptiles. No hides, lots of contact etc. And his monitors are frankly phenominally healthy looking and really social with their keepers.

5th is the question of would this work with snakes.

I've heard anecdotal evidence about species such as Russian rat snakes in that they are particularly social and seemingly intelligent, in my mind species like that would be ideal to begin such an experiment.

I wouldn't say that it's out of the realm of possibility.

We've seen in just the past decade or two how behaviors among captive populations. For example CB baby western hognoses that didn't want to eat pinkies ended up dying, now the ones now will take them with a littlw bit of scenting, previously horribly mean species such as blood pythons are considered fine, the more tame ones were more likely to be worked with and pass on those genes. Now the ones we have are not really more or less mean than any other species.

Overall I'd say unless you are going to do an experiment its best to use a hide box. But its an interesting question I don't believe has an easy answer.

[EL Ziggy]

I offer hides to all my snakes. My carpets spend a lot of time off the ground but they do retreat to their hides after a big meal and when they're in shed. Those are the times when they're probably the most vulnerable so it leads me to believe that they prefer the added security. I'm sure they could live without them but they seem to appreciate having their hides.

[kazz]

My carpets spend a lot of time off the ground but they do retreat to their hides after a big meal and when they're in shed

And how about a day time ? where are your carpets is at day ?

[EL Ziggy]

And how about a day time ? where are your carpets is at day ?

2 of my 5 carpets will chill in their hides during the day. The others are on/under their shelves or lounging on top of their hides.

[kazz]

looks like my carpet like her hide box may be bc there is a heat pad in it. Too bad. I'd like she to sleep on branches.

[Captain837]

Our womas and black-headed pythons are super active night and day. They are very inquisitive and when they see movement in the room they come toward the door to investigate. However when they sleep 9 times out of 10 they sleep in their hide.
Unless your animal was designed to hide in plain sight (gtp for example) it will have a desire or instinct to find shelter when it is most vulnerable.

[kazz]

Captain837, ppl say the same type of snakes can have different behavior. So hides must affect on snakes's behavior.

[DJC Reptiles]

Captain837, ppl say the same type of snakes can have different behavior. So hides must affect on snakes's behavior.

Keep in mind all snakes underwent the process of millions of years of evolution. There is no such thing as fearless snakes because they were all picked off early on. Snakes like to feel comfortable, they like to feel secure, and if a hide box makes them feel secure, then who is the keeper, if he/she does not take care of their responsibilities properly. Hopefully we all knew going into this, snakes are not puppy dogs, they will probably never "love" you and only tolerate handling. As much as I like snakes, and as much as I want them to like me back, I am certain my snake would escape a cage and never be seen again, should I let that happen. Most snakes do not have the mental capacity to "love" a keeper, or to realize your not a threat when you walk in a room. For a snake, everything bigger then it is a potential predator, and without a place to hide all you are doing is making the snake scared and uncomfortable. Just because we want an animal to change, doesn't mean it will, and as a keeper it is his/her's responsibility to provide the best care and this means using a hide box. Just because a hide box is in a cage, does not mean it will always be in use, and it is up to the snake whether it wants to feel secure, or go exploring. I am not saying it can't work, I am saying it is irresponsible of any keeper to not let the snake do what it wants.

[Captain837]

Captain837, ppl say the same type of snakes can have different behavior. So hides must affect on snakes's behavior.

I will agree that snakes can differe to a degree on an individual basis however basic survival instincts most likely are still in tact. If not the individual would be culled by nature. Now is there a chance that a specific been related to the desire to hide has changed and been able to survive due to it being in captivity? Possibly however the only way to know would be to watch the animal 24-7 and see if it ever utilizes the hide. Simply taking the hide away and seeing if it survives is irresponsible imo.

[Jim Smith]

We need to keep in mind that animals can get used to situations to the point of not being afraid or feeling insecure. For example a animal sees a person and automatically flees the area to get away from a potential predator or threat. However, after seeing that person over a period of time, and seeing that they do not represent any danger, they stop fleeing the area. I live in an area where there are an over-abundance of deer. Normally deer will leave an area when they see people. These deer are so used to people and automobiles, that they just stop and look at you when you walk by and then resume eating. The same will happen with many reptiles. A snake will start to associate the person with food and come to the front of the enclosure. A turtle gets used to seeing me go by in my kayak and he stops plopping into the water when I get near him. All that said, it is still appropriate to offer hides to snakes so that they have a place to rest and feel secure if they need it. As much as we all like to see our snakes out and about in their enclosures, their husbandry needs MUST come first, period.

[kazz]

However, after seeing that person over a period of time, and seeing that they do not represent any danger, they stop fleeing the area.
7 month pass but my carpet still afraid of me and never go to her branches if there is a bit of light from table lamp. And keep in your mind she have only one side from glass other sides is black.

A snake will start to associate the person with food and come to the front of the enclosure.
my carpet eat in full darkness only.
for 7 month she was strike her food one timed I was dancing around her about half of a hour and closed her hide bc she'd run away as far as I opened box cover.

[jjhill001]

7 month pass but my carpet still afraid of me and never go to her branches if there is a bit of light from table lamp. And keep in your mind she have only one side from glass other sides is black.


my carpet eat in full darkness only.
for 7 month she was strike her food one timed I was dancing around her about half of a hour and closed her hide bc she'd run away as far as I opened box cover.

How often are you feeding your snake?

[kazz]

jjhill001, every 5-6 days 30% of her weight. But after this thread (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/food-thought-forum/116094-prey-size-weight.html) I think may be to low prey to 20% weight.

[jjhill001]

jjhill001, every 5-6 days 30% of her weight. But after this thread (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/food-thought-forum/116094-prey-size-weight.html) I think may be to low prey to 20% weight.

I can't specifically speak to carpet pythons as I've never kept that species. Due to my experience with snakes I've always been more of a feel guy in terms of prey size.

The problem with some of these feeding tables is that they are designed by breeders. They want to get snakes up to size so they can breed faster and maximize money. Now in my opinion there is nothing wrong with this as long as they don't go overboard. However it is completely unnecessary for the average keeper. I feed my rat snakes one medium sized mouse every 2 weeks. If you aren't breeding your snakes some of these schedules can result in fat snakes that look a bit ridiculous compared to snakes that have a natural slender (not starving or skinny) body line.

The rule I've gone by is the prey has to be about the same size as the middle of the snake. As I've been educated by some ball python keepers this can result in WAY too big of food for some of the heavier bodied snakes out there. Something that I as a colubrid keeper didn't really consider too much.

However, carpets are one of the more slender python species so I imagine that smaller prey than you would think, less often than probably commonly recommended would work just fine.

[kazz]

If you aren't breeding your snakes some of these schedules can result in fat snakes that look a bit ridiculous compared to snakes that have a natural slender (not starving or skinny) body line.
yeah
I was worried about her fat so I made a video and showed on another snake forum. They say she looks excellent )
I don't think yang snake can be fat or can ?

However, carpets are one of the more slender python species so I imagine that smaller prey than you would think, less often than probably commonly recommended would work just fine.
take a look at that ) http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/morelia-spilota/104133-carpet-prey-size.html#post901934

[jjhill001]

yeah
I was worried about her fat so I made a video and showed on another snake forum. They say she looks excellent )
I don't think yang snake can be fat or can ?

What do you mean by yang snake?

[kazz]

jjhill001, while snake don't get her almost max size. While they are babies.