Been a way for a while, have a concern

[ThirteenRavens]

Hi again gang. I've been away from the forum as I've bought a house, moved, etc...I finally got my snakes back from a friend who was caring for them while I was moving between states and my youngest ball python Dayo (I think I've posted a thread on him a while ago when I first got him) is concerning me...

long story short, when she dropped off my snakes yesterday (I wasn't home...) I came home and was livid...every water bowl was either BONE dry (not just had water dumped recently...I mean bone dry) or had a tiny bit of water left in it along with feces for who knows how long it was in there...

Regardless...I noticed today that Dayo (who is a banana spider and has had a mild wobble since I got him) has been having great difficulty keeping himself upright. He will move forward and his head falls upside down and backwards...he doesn't do this when I hold him, he is very stable when in my arms but when he's in his viv, it looks like he is throwing himself around. I know spiders wobble...my question is...can the progression of the wobble become worse? When I got him in May his head would bobble a bit but nothing like this...thanks in advance for any input...lesson learned...

Hopefully the link for the youtube video works...

https://youtu.be/ljea7eA_wbo

[TRD]

I would like to stay nice and all, but 'lesson learned' as in "don't buy spider morphs, ever" (plus a few other defective morphs) or "don't give snake for care to a friend" ..

A ball will sustain a great deal of punishment in terms of hydration, heat, or food. They are very hardy, so I doubt it's that. If they would be kept so hot that they ended up with neuro damage, other snakes would either also have symptoms or be flat out dead.

[ThirteenRavens]

I would like to stay nice and all

as in don't rely on someone else to care for your babies when they clearly don't care about anything else...

Don't worry about staying nice...trust me. I won't be relying on her to care for them again.

Her excuse as of late (with everything) has been "I've been exhausted" or "I've been depressed"............preaching to that choir big time. I'm chronically depressed and fatigued but I still manage to take care of the lives in my care regardless of how upset I am. They are literally the only things that get me out of bed any given day.

She said she hasn't seen him wobble this badly, I wonder when the last time she actually saw him was given the state everyone else was in...(as far as their vivs and such go...they seem to be doing ok, no apparent "neuro" issues or otherwise)

As I said, I've been in the process of moving between states and she had cared for them previously with no issues (that I know of...) so I'm not sure why she's having a problem now.

He has finally settled down (he was doing this the majority of the day) and I've covered his viv with a heavy towel to help keep light and the view of me/the dogs moving around to a minimum.

Hopefully he will be ok :no: :(

[Aaron_S]

The wobble could just have progressed. It happens.

[Albert Clark]

The wobble in the spider gene can also be magnified if the animal is stressed. So the proper care and feedings now that they are back in your care may lessen the presentation. Proper temps and humidity, hides and overall cleanliness will all help.

[Albert Clark]

I would like to stay nice and all, but 'lesson learned' as in "don't buy spider morphs, ever" (plus a few other defective morphs) or "don't give snake for care to a friend" ..

A ball will sustain a great deal of punishment in terms of hydration, heat, or food. They are very hardy, so I doubt it's that. If they would be kept so hot that they ended up with neuro damage, other snakes would either also have symptoms or be flat out dead.

I don't think it's the answer to "don't buy spider morphs ever". And calling the spider gene and the other ball python morphs "defective morphs" borders on cruel. They all are animals that have survived with known genetic disabilities and are the main preferred gene (spider) in a multitude of designer morphs. And the disability is one that is very variable in its severity and is manageable with proper husbandry and stress reduction. Just the reality of the "wobble" disability.

[TRD]

breeding something with a known lesser quality of life (and god knows how they experience it) is not ethical. These morphs are bred for 1 reason, and one reason alone: $

And Ps. I'm not calling all other bp morphs 'defective', just those with known neuro issues.

Think of it what you will, but it's still not ethical what is being done.

[dannybgoode]

The UK is slowly getting round to stopping the sale of the spider morph and any other morph that carries the gene.

Similarly the jaguar carpets are slowly being seen as the unacceptable face of morph chasing.

I'm with TRD - there is no justification imo of breeding an animal with known debilitating genetic defects.

[Albert Clark]

as in don't rely on someone else to care for your babies when they clearly don't care about anything else...

Don't worry about staying nice...trust me. I won't be relying on her to care for them again.

Her excuse as of late (with everything) has been "I've been exhausted" or "I've been depressed"............preaching to that choir big time. I'm chronically depressed and fatigued but I still manage to take care of the lives in my care regardless of how upset I am. They are literally the only things that get me out of bed any given day.

She said she hasn't seen him wobble this badly, I wonder when the last time she actually saw him was given the state everyone else was in...(as far as their vivs and such go...they seem to be doing ok, no apparent "neuro" issues or otherwise)

As I said, I've been in the process of moving between states and she had cared for them previously with no issues (that I know of...) so I'm not sure why she's having a problem now.

He has finally settled down (he was doing this the majority of the day) and I've covered his viv with a heavy towel to help keep light and the view of me/the dogs moving around to a minimum.

Hopefully he will be ok :no: :(

ThirteenRavens, regardless of how others feel about the wobble you will have to grapple with it in your own way and decide if you want to manage the animals disability. The controversy will remain either way about owning, breeding, and ethics in keeping the spider gene morphs. No one should sway you in your decision if you plan to go forward. On the same token, you should not let anyone tell you it is or it isn't depending on how you feel. Good luck with him.

[Albert Clark]

The UK is slowly getting round to stopping the sale of the spider morph and any other morph that carries the gene.

Similarly the jaguar carpets are slowly being seen as the unacceptable face of morph chasing.

I'm with TRD - there is no justification imo of breeding an animal with known debilitating genetic defects.

Sounds rather harsh! I see nothing wrong with keeping spider gene morphs/combos. The vast majority of them feed and grow and live quite well despite the anthropomorphic views on their quality of life by some. I don't know of anyone who has needed to euthanize a spider for spinning or corkscrewing, in fact. I'm not saying that those severe cases don't exist, I just don't know of any. It's always up to the keeper. I find that people who are against something are going to be against it no matter what fact or argument you bring to bear.

[Albert Clark]

breeding something with a known lesser quality of life (and god knows how they experience it) is not ethical. These morphs are bred for 1 reason, and one reason alone: $

And Ps. I'm not calling all other bp morphs 'defective', just those with known neuro issues.

Think of it what you will, but it's still not ethical what is being done.

Not to derail the thread, but I have a nephew with a genetic disability. That doesn't sentence him to a poor quality of life. In fact, he was in a wheelchair with motor/ muscular twitching in his lower limbs and negligible limb control. Through therapy, and the desire to get better, he is out of the wheelchair and walking on his own. He confided in me once that the worst part of his life was when people treated him as a deformity and not a person. I don't own a spider morph at the moment, but my nephew who is also a breeder of reptiles, and I, are considering a trade very soon and it involves a Spied morph. Can't wait.

[dannybgoode]

So what does the hobby gain by breeding defective morphs? What benefit is there to doing so?

The option is there to not breed them (intentionally that is) so why bother?

[Albert Clark]

Defective???? Issues maybe or disabilities. Benefits? Unlimited. Option? Totally up to the keeper and subjective.

[dannybgoode]

Go on then. Give me one benefit to the hobby from breeding snakes with a guaranteed disability. What do we gain, how is the hobby advanced by this practice?

I can think of precisely one - different coloured snakes and that hardly justifies the practice but I'm open to hearing others if there are some.

[regi375]

Not to derail the thread, but I have a nephew with a genetic disability. That doesn't sentence him to a poor quality of life. In fact, he was in a wheelchair with motor/ muscular twitching in his lower limbs and negligible limb control. Through therapy, and the desire to get better, he is out of the wheelchair and walking on his own. He confided in me once that the worst part of his life was when people treated him as a deformity and not a person. I don't own a spider morph at the moment, but my nephew who is also a breeder of reptiles, and I, are considering a trade very soon and it involves a Spied morph. Can't wait.

There's a big difference between your nephew and a snake Albert. With your nephew, it happened by chance that he was born with those issues. With these snakes, they're being intentionally bred and born with these issues. The problem isn't that they have a disability, it's that they're being bred knowing that they're going to have a disability that affects them adversely.

[Albert Clark]

Go on then. Give me one benefit to the hobby from breeding snakes with a guaranteed disability. What do we gain, how is the hobby advanced by this practice?

I can think of precisely one - different coloured snakes and that hardly justifies the practice but I'm open to hearing others if there are some.

1- supply. demand.

2- Amazing morph/ combos some with great personalities despite.

3- More keepers get to study a reptile that is a enigma and is under constant examination and study by big breeders, veterinary schools when the elective is exotics (reptile genetic chromosomal abnormalities). And commonly people who just love the morph.

[Albert Clark]

There's a big difference between your nephew and a snake Albert. With your nephew, it happened by chance that he was born with those issues. With these snakes, they're being intentionally bred and born with these issues. The problem isn't that they have a disability, it's that they're being bred knowing that they're going to have a disability that affects them adversely.

Actually a small difference but the principle scenario is very similar. The spider disability (thank you) is one that has varying degrees of severity and most are certainly not adversely affected with all due respect. I have only a vague recollection of one person that claims to of had a spider with a wobble so bad it wouldn't eat. However, that same person just culled it instead of taking suggestions on how to minimize it, so who knows how bad it really was? Then there are always the " i know a breeder", "i have a buddy", my sister's cousins aunt" rumors that you never find a source to, seems to be the same people that have desert females that lay viable eggs. Besides that, we have multi thousands of spiders that thrive perfectly fine in captivity.

[TRD]

Just going to leave this here..
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262937861_Neurologic_dysfunction_in_a_ball_python_ python_regius_color_morph_and_Implications_for_wel fare

[Albert Clark]

Just going to leave this here..
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262937861_Neurologic_dysfunction_in_a_ball_python_ python_regius_color_morph_and_Implications_for_wel fare Unfortunately i can't view the link, thanks anyway. Let's let ThirteenRavens decide what his path is going to be. This will be how i end this back and forth. At least some of the pros and cons of owning , keeping , breeding and the ethical and or unethical considerations have been posted herein.

[ThirteenRavens]

Thanks for all of the input guys, I really appreciate it as always. I have been out of town for the holiday, thus the lack of response.

I had a different friend stay at my home (who I trust implicitly to take care of my dogs and her snakes were also in this other friends' care and fortunately they are ok and are now at my house as well) while I was away and had her update me daily on Dayo. He has settled down and is no longer corkscrewing like he was when I made this post.

I am not a breeder nor do I ever plan to be, and I if I were I wouldn't be breeding the spider lines. As beautiful as they are, my heart breaks every time I see how bad they can be. Fortunately Dayo is a fantastic eater (which I'm afraid wasn't done often enough in the "care" of my friend either...) and has no issues with eating. I do have to wait a bit longer with the mouse on the tongs for him to grab it himself...I don't wave it around otherwise he strikes and misses.

I will continue to monitor him and if this becomes routine or worse I will do right by him.

[Aaron_S]

breeding something with a known lesser quality of life (and god knows how they experience it) is not ethical. These morphs are bred for 1 reason, and one reason alone: $

And Ps. I'm not calling all other bp morphs 'defective', just those with known neuro issues.

Think of it what you will, but it's still not ethical what is being done.

There isn't any conclusive evidence that spider morphs (specifically we will discuss those) have a known lesser quality of life. Snakes are instinctive animals. Their job is to eat, poop, grow, stay alive and proliferate the species. The spider mutation as a whole doesn't interfere with that.

If you personally are against them that's cool. No issue with personal choice, however don't pass along misinformation as truth and fact.

So what does the hobby gain by breeding defective morphs? What benefit is there to doing so?

The option is there to not breed them (intentionally that is) so why bother?

Since you've agreed with TRD I am going to believe you'd agree with the link to the medical paper TRD posted. Here's two examples for the benefit:

"Aspects of reptile welfare may have benefited from
the growth of captive breeding. In the past, it has
been more financially viable to replace a diseased
reptile than to seek veterinary intervention.
This is no longer the case owing to greater veterinary
expertise and growing commercial value of reptiles..."

First example to sum it up is we now have a greater (also still increasing) knowledge of the reptile physiology on a medical side. People would replace reptiles and now seek out Vet. help on a regular basis.

Secondly, the morph market has greatly increased the popularity of reptiles as pets. Bringing them to a mainstream level which helps bring more people to not kill them and put forth an effort towards conservation instead of eradication.

Just going to leave this here..
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262937861_Neurologic_dysfunction_in_a_ball_python_ python_regius_color_morph_and_Implications_for_wel fare

Did you read your own article? It had an incredibly low amount of people for the study answer the questionnaire sent to them. Further, the welfare side came out to be "inconclusive" with current evidence. Meaning there's no current definable way to say there's a lesser quality of life for this morph.

As well the article also states both groups (breeders v welfarists) may be biased due to which group they belong in. Which to me further conflates the issue because the answers to the survey may simply be answered to push a personal agenda.

My personal issue with the welfarists is how do I know they have even seen this snake in person or ever kept a snake in their life to actually understand the issue at hand? From the article it seems they only read the results of the breeder survey (Which is 13 people deep).

In the end, I agree with the article that there definitely should be more studies done to find out if certain morphs with known defects (in this case the wobble syndrome) has a negative effect on it's welfare. Until then though, I have to go with the general consensus that as a rule of thumb, it doesn't impede the quality of life of the individual animal.

[Andy_G]

I dislike the fact that the spider morph has come into fruition and I don't see any reason for myself to work with it. I don't however see a reason to "exterminate it" or to shame people who buy it or work with it and it's much too far along to even propose this. There's a difference between education and cramming your opinion down somebody's throat. One's opinions and ethics are personal and full of bias and they do in fact vary without being right or wrong...or sometimes they are right or wrong...but I know that wouldn't be cramming my opinion down anybody's throat here when it comes to something like this, especially if I were recently corrected on the origins of such genes. ;)

[dannybgoode]

The origins of the gene are somewhat irrelevant as I feel the same way about the jaguar carpet morph, scales snakes, silk back dragons, eyeless snakes and any other animal (and I include things like pug dogs) where humans are breeding defective animals poorly for their own aesthetic satisfaction.

[dannybgoode]

@Aaron - 'Their job is to eat, poop, grow, stay alive and proliferate the species.'

I'm surprised you could have such a low basis for what constitutes a quality life and the criteria differ greatly from mine.

And the challenge as always. TRD has at least provided a proper scientific peer reviewed paper to back his argument (which you have discussed last have done flaws but it is peer reviewed). So seeing as we are always asked for papers I will ask for the same. A paper demonstrating snakes are purely instinctive animals that are unduly affected by neuro issues.

[dannybgoode]

http://www.dannybower.co.uk/photos/maxresdefault.jpg

[Albert Clark]

Start with the basic info then....

OWALReptiles - Issues (http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php)

[dannybgoode]

That's a breeder website - why would I have any interest in what someone who is making money through unethical breeding has to say? I'm asking for peer reviewed papers.

[TRD]

...by the same logic eyeless, scaleless, or whatever deformities that can be bread should be OK because "it lives".

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence when it comes to how reptiles perceive their world, or how they "feel" about it.

It's fine anyone calls it my opinion, it's also fine nobody agrees as I cant provide conclusive evidence it adversely affect the snake as that simply doesn't exist. In the very least anyone should be able to agree that it is not an ethical practice that despite the certainty neurological issues in varying degrees will be present in the animal it is not an issue.

I'm not trying to shove it down anyone's throat here, I'm simply asking to take a step back and think about it.

[Albert Clark]

That's a breeder website - why would I have any interest in what someone who is making money through unethical breeding has to say? I'm asking for peer reviewed papers.
OWAL is one of the pioneers in genetic science as it relates to ball pythons and world reknowned for their studies in chromosomal disabilities/abnormalities in them.Guess you can call them a authority on the science front and more than just breeders. It's totally your prerogative to not be interested in what they have to say though.

[TRD]

I'm sorry Albert, I don't want to come off harsh, but that is in no way scientific. He's following the same logic as many others to justify with "They live; poop; feed; breed; hence are there is no issue"

He even literally states that...

"We breed them because it's a morph, in truth every morph is a "defect". People have brought up the arguement that they would not fair well in the wild. My response would be, they are only going to remain in captivity and they eat, poop, breed, live healthy lives just like any other ball python in captivity."

For god sake they even list the morphs paired with spider and some of them just flat out die at birth, or shortly after. How does that possibly show a healthy genetic make-up? Is it so hard for people to admit that "Yes we make a nice looking snake, but it's not viable to continue this project due to the neurological issues attached to it."

He even states it's attached to the spider gene, it can't be out-crossed.

...It's fine, we are humans, and we love to solve complexities, explore, find the limits, but for christ sake don't do it with living organisms. And certainly not with a commercial aspect attached to it where every person can just simply obtain one and start his own "breeding project".

I'm all cool with morphs, or ball pythons, even if it sometimes frustrates me to see the sheer numbers of them at expos and I see no value in color patterns outside of the natural ones, but some things just take it one step too far and tick me off.

[Albert Clark]

...by the same logic eyeless, scaleless, or whatever deformities that can be bread should be OK because "it lives".

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence when it comes to how reptiles perceive their world, or how they "feel" about it.

It's fine anyone calls it my opinion, it's also fine nobody agrees as I cant provide conclusive evidence it adversely affect the snake as that simply doesn't exist. In the very least anyone should be able to agree that it is not an ethical practice that despite the certainty neurological issues in varying degrees will be present in the animal it is not an issue.

I'm not trying to shove it down anyone's throat here, I'm simply asking to take a step back and think about it.
The animals are born with this disability and are thriving in spite of it. There is the fact that we recognize the wobble as abnormal as it is, however the animal doesn't and hasn't

[Albert Clark]

...by the same logic eyeless, scaleless, or whatever deformities that can be bread should be OK because "it lives".

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence when it comes to how reptiles perceive their world, or how they "feel" about it.

It's fine anyone calls it my opinion, it's also fine nobody agrees as I cant provide conclusive evidence it adversely affect the snake as that simply doesn't exist. In the very least anyone should be able to agree that it is not an ethical practice that despite the certainty neurological issues in varying degrees will be present in the animal it is not an issue.

I'm not trying to shove it down anyone's throat here, I'm simply asking to take a step back and think about it.
The animals (spider gene) are born with this disability and are thriving in spite of it. There is the fact that we recognize the wobble as abnormal as it is, however the animal doesn't and hasn't. He is being a python.

[Aaron_S]

@Aaron - 'Their job is to eat, poop, grow, stay alive and proliferate the species.'

I'm surprised you could have such a low basis for what constitutes a quality life and the criteria differ greatly from mine.

And the challenge as always. TRD has at least provided a proper scientific peer reviewed paper to back his argument (which you have discussed last have done flaws but it is peer reviewed). So seeing as we are always asked for papers I will ask for the same. A paper demonstrating snakes are purely instinctive animals that are unduly affected by neuro issues.

Yeah I'll get one for you. There's lots out there proving the primal nature of the snake brain. I'm just at work so you'll have to be patient Danny. Thank you.

http://www.dannybower.co.uk/photos/maxresdefault.jpg

Take random online pictures out of context to prove a point. Great. One animal out of 100,000's. That animal could have been flipped over for picture taking. Further, I've never had a spider hatch like that and if I did I'd feed it to something else. There's very few cases of spider morphs being this bad where it might affect it's quality of life.

That's a breeder website - why would I have any interest in what someone who is making money through unethical breeding has to say? I'm asking for peer reviewed papers.

Oh a breeder website eh? You don't trust them. However, you trust the peer reviewed paper TRD posted which is based on the information given by breeders. So which is it, you don't have interest in anything they say or you only care to listen to them when it supports your side of things?

I'm sorry Albert, I don't want to come off harsh, but that is in no way scientific. He's following the same logic as many others to justify with "They live; poop; feed; breed; hence are there is no issue"

He even literally states that...

"We breed them because it's a morph, in truth every morph is a "defect". People have brought up the arguement that they would not fair well in the wild. My response would be, they are only going to remain in captivity and they eat, poop, breed, live healthy lives just like any other ball python in captivity."

For god sake they even list the morphs paired with spider and some of them just flat out die at birth, or shortly after. How does that possibly show a healthy genetic make-up? Is it so hard for people to admit that "Yes we make a nice looking snake, but it's not viable to continue this project due to the neurological issues attached to it."

He even states it's attached to the spider gene, it can't be out-crossed.

...It's fine, we are humans, and we love to solve complexities, explore, find the limits, but for christ sake don't do it with living organisms. And certainly not with a commercial aspect attached to it where every person can just simply obtain one and start his own "breeding project".

I'm all cool with morphs, or ball pythons, even if it sometimes frustrates me to see the sheer numbers of them at expos and I see no value in color patterns outside of the natural ones, but some things just take it one step too far and tick me off.

You seem pretty reasonable. I'd debate with you a little more.

A few points, the spider morph is what it is. It's polarizing. Surprisingly, they do very well in pet stores and a lot of people want them as pets. So breeders follow demand more often then not (also the reason you see so many at shows. They sell and support peoples hobbies.)

Secondly, yes when bred to certain other morphs it causes fatalities. People simply don't do those pairings anymore. We can't condone this because in many aspects of our world, including humans, the crossing of two genes/parents can result in a fatal death. Or all on it's own.

Example: A friend of mine tried to have a kid. She has a condition ( I can't recall the name) where she likely will give birth to a stillborn baby. She did. She wasn't aware of this prior to being pregnant and she had a rough go of it.
She tried again and has a healthy child some years later.

**** happens on a genetic level in every species, including our own. We can't simply say "Well if you put X and Y together it becomes lethal so X should never be alive in the first place." All we can do is keep X and Y apart, snakes, humans, whatever else someone breeds.