Coachwhip or Bullsnake?

[Monocled Guy]

I've been getting the itch to get another snake and lately I've been thinking about bullsnakes but I've always admired coachwhips as well. I've never kept either of these before. Anyone have any opinions or thoughts on which one I should get?

[TRD]

I personally really like coachwhips, but it's not quite a snake that you can handle or will even tolerate your presence. They consistently seem to look ticked off. Lovely :)

[Monocled Guy]

I've heard that about them before. I think some people use them as sort of practice snakes before moving onto hots but I really just like how they look. Being diurnal and active, I bet they are fascinating to watch. The red color westerns are really nice looking.

[TRD]

Yes, those red ones are spectacular.. but being so active also means they need lots of space, and being diurnal requires considerations in your lighting. If you have the space and willingness to likely deal with a hands-off snake, I'm sure they can be much more rewarding than a snake hiding away somewhere.

If I could have them here, I would already have them.

[SerpentineDream]

Coachwhips have a tendency to go straight for your face. They are not people snakes. They hate all of us on general principle.

If you want a snake that has a little bit of attitude but you can still work with I'd go with the bull snake.

[Monocled Guy]

I have a monocled cobra. I am used to a defensive attitude with certain species. It doesn't really put me off to them especially if they can't kill me lol.

[SerpentineDream]

Well heck, you'll be fine then.

[Monocled Guy]

I do appreciate the advice you gave nonetheless. Thank you. I was just looking at some older pictures of stillwater hypo bull snakes, it doesn't look like anyone has them available right now but they are gorgeous. I am probably going to have to wait until November when the Repticon show comes back here to Columbia and see what they have.

[toddnbecka]

Disposition/attitude aside, I've seen some pretty red coachwhips, but they never looked as good to me as my fire bull.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/toddnbecka/Snakes/P1070171_zpsz1xubehb.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toddnbecka/media/Snakes/P1070171_zpsz1xubehb.jpg.html)

As far as red snakes, I love the Dominican red mountain boas, though a true bloodred corn is also great.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/toddnbecka/Snakes/P1060721_zpsw2lzy7pi.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toddnbecka/media/Snakes/P1060721_zpsw2lzy7pi.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/toddnbecka/Snakes/P1070013_zpsd02jjfzs.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toddnbecka/media/Snakes/P1070013_zpsd02jjfzs.jpg.html)

[Captain837]

Being that I grew up in the desert of Arizona, have had pet snakes for years, worked in an exotic reptile shop in college and have worked for a local fire department that offers snake removal service for the last 20 years I think it is safe to say I have a fairly wide range of experience with different species of snakes both venomous and not.
With that said, the coachwhip native to phoenix az is the only snake I have actually witnessed Chase a human being. They are pure evil reincarnated. They hate you for being you, they hate your very soul. This makes them a lot of fun to work with if you like excitement and kisses with teeth.

Bullsnakes on the other hand bluff a lot and are easy to tame. I tail wild ones all the time and as soon as they realize you don't want to eat them they become quite pleasant.

[Captain837]

I have a monocled cobra. I am used to a defensive attitude with certain species. It doesn't really put me off to them especially if they can't kill me lol.

I would classify coachwhip as more of offensive rather than defensive. Think a jamesons mamba without the venom.

[SerpentineDream]

With that said, the coachwhip native to phoenix az is the only snake I have actually witnessed Chase a human being. They are pure evil reincarnated. They hate you for being you, they hate your very soul. This makes them a lot of fun to work with if you like excitement and kisses with teeth.


When I was young, foolish and living in rural Arizona I tried to shoo a coachwhip off the road so it wouldn't be run over by a car.

As I approached it turned and *flew* at my face, biting repeatedly and hard. I bled. A lot. When I ran back to the car the thing CAME AFTER ME like it was possessed by demons. I deeply regretted having parked a fair distance away. Once in the car I gave serious thought to running it over, backing up and running it over again, then perhaps a third time just for good measure. Didn't actually do it.

Not sure if they live in South Dakota as some of their racer cousins do, but if so they're on their own.

I do completely understand why they are used to train venomous snake handlers. They are lightning fast, agile and eager to bite. Other than that I'm not sure why anyone would want to keep one as a pet. They are almost all WC as there isn't much demand for them (wonder why?) and that probably doesn't help their attitude in captivity.

Bit of trivia: Coachwhips hunt by periscoping above the brush and using their keen eyesight to spot prey. Then they run the animal down, hence their incredible speed.

[Herpin' Man]

Coachwhips are by far more interesting. They are big, active, and fast. They will require large cages, as large as you can fit in your house. And, as the others have said, they are not exactly docile when it comes to handling.
My suggestion is to go with the bullsnake.

[Minkness]

Man, these stories are horrific and funny as heck! Makes me wanna see one of these in person! (With a face sheiks of course lol).

After hearing all that and having 2 pits of my own that I love, I would suggest the bull snake. But I also like being able to handle my animals lol.

[BillyCostume]

Wow I had no idea coachwhips were that bad hahaha. Kind of makes me want to encounter one now:D

[Captain837]

The last one I encountered was a large wild one we were called on to remove from a house. When we got there we found it hiding behind some boxes in a room with its tail exposed. I opted to tail it because I was afraid it would thrash around too much with the snake pole and as thin bodied as they are I was concerned it might hurt itself. I also figured it would be somewhat mellow due to how cold the room was that it was in.
I tailed it and got it in the snake bucket without much issue. We drove it across the street and I instructed my booter firefighter to walk about 50 feet out into the desert, unscrew the lid and throw it as far as he can. He asked me why and I told him because it would likely come back after him. Well he thought I was joking so he stepped off the truck, took about 10 steps and dropped this demon at his feet. It immediately made a 180 and came back after him. He let out the most feminine scream I have ever heard come from a man as he tried to get back in the truck before it found it's revenge. Lucky for him he got the door closed in time but the determined little devil climbed up into the undercarriage of the engine trying to get to him.
This experience was not out of the ordinary for this species.

[TRD]

Now I seriously require one of these criminals.

[Monocled Guy]

Haha wow! Even my cobra is not as scary as some of these stories. They sound like interesting animals to work with. I'm really liking some of the hypo bulls though.

[Monocled Guy]

*update* So I ended up getting a bullsnake. I paid $150 plus another $50 shipping because I was told it was a Stillwater hypo bullsnake. I was and am fine with that. Funny thing is I just saw that the gentleman I purchased it from updated an add that had a picture of my exact snake listed as a northern pine snake for $100 and noting that it was now sold. I'm not really sure what to think about this. The guy was pretty friendly and has a good reputation online. He mentioned that the parents were "red influenced". So is that where the northern pine is coming in because I know they are the same species but I've never heard anyone say "Stillwater northern pine". It also doesn't explain why he requested $50 more than he was asking in his add on the other fb page. Dude basically messaged me and told me he had some nice males after I posted about the Stillwaters on one fB page. I even double checked and asked him if it was a Stillwater and he said yes. Now after seeing his add that for sure has a picture of THE snake I purchased from him being sold as a northern pine for $100...I'm feeling some kinda way suddenly. If I breed this thing with another Bull and tell someone that the offspring have Stillwater hypo in them...am I unknowingly lying? In all fairness the snake is very nice looking and I like it. I'm not even mad about the price...I'm just wondering if I have what I thought I was buying. I'm leaving his name out of it under the assumption that this is my own ignorance causing the confusion since I've never owned a bullsnake before. Anyone that knows anything about bullsnakes have any thoughts on this?

[EL Ziggy]

Do you have a picture of the snake? The Stillwater hypos and Northern Pines look very different.

[Monocled Guy]

Here is a pic from my instagram

http://www.instagram.com/p/BZy7hvcA8Q9y3Dfxd3c790wmRGRiPJ-wxMXwlw0/?taken-by=eliphas_blackthorn

[akane]

Not a northern pine and the 2 are not the same species, even subspecies, or usually hybridized but what all gets crossed is only the breeder´s word and the word of who they bought from. There is a red northern pine the original breeder dispersed and a few are trying to bring back but they are still very much black and white pines overall with some red tinting the white areas.

I'm not familiar with the lighter bulls but stillwater is a locale. What I've heard is the area has or at least had rattlesnake elimination events. In saving bull snakes from poor ID some unique orange had been collected alive. The result is sometimes used in other red projects but most have their own designations for those offspring.

[Monocled Guy]

Ok so not a northern pine. Well that's a good sign. As far s my word on what I received, I have the paperwork from the breeder. Not that anyone is calling me a liar but if I was that kind of guy I would have just had a knee jerk reaction and put the gentleman's name out there. I had not planned on doing that even if it turned out to be a northern pine. As I said in an earlier post, it could just be my own ignorance and lack of experience creating the confusion. I should have educated myself better purchasing it so the fault inevitably lies with me in the end. I appreciate the help though. Thanks for weighing in on it. I do feel better knowing it is most likely what I wanted and that was the most important issue for me.

[Monocled Guy]

So my wife just looked at the add I was talking about and the error is on my part for sure. While the add itself is somewhat confusing and the price difference is still there, my wife pointed out that he does mention Stillwater hypo in there. She also mentioned that he may have just cushioned the price when he made the original offer to me with the expectation that I would haggle/negotiate it down which is something I wouldn't do unless the price was way over the top. So essentially I am wrong here and need to own it. I apologize for wasting everyone's time with this.

[Andy_G]

Not a northern pine and the 2 are not the same species, even subspecies, or usually hybridized but what all gets crossed is only the breeder´s word and the word of who they bought from. There is a red northern pine the original breeder dispersed and a few are trying to bring back but they are still very much black and white pines overall with some red tinting the white areas.

I'm not familiar with the lighter bulls but stillwater is a locale. What I've heard is the area has or at least had rattlesnake elimination events. In saving bull snakes from poor ID some unique orange had been collected alive. The result is sometimes used in other red projects but most have their own designations for those offspring.

It is actually a line of recessive hypomelanism that is incompatible with other lines of hypo, and it's named that way because the original animal was collected at a stillwater rattlesnake round up, so not technically a locality at all because it's common for people to round up outside of the immediate areas for these events. The name is connected to the strain and not locality specific and therefore carries over to all animals that are heterozygous or homozygous for the trait. The other strain that is commonly available is trumbower. It's similar to how sharp and kahl are in regards to albino boas. The only instance where this would differ is if someone specified a bullsnake to be a stillwater locality animal.

That is a stillwater hypo bullsnake for sure. Nice grab. I have a feeling it's one from John Skager. If so, have peace of mind that is exactly what it is.

[EL Ziggy]

Very nice bull snake. I really like the head stamp. Neither of my bulls have one.

[Monocled Guy]

Andy thank you for your input. I very much regret making that post since it was my own ignorance that caused the issue. I will not confirm or name who produced the snake in this thread because I do not want their name to be questioned or even lightly drug through the mud because of my ignorance. I can imagine it takes time to build a good reputation in this hobby and I'd rather not see that get tarnished just because I'm an idiot. Someone could read halfway through and assume I got a bad deal and that's unfair to the breeder. Thank you for clearing up my understanding of the Stillwater hypo line.

[Monocled Guy]

El Ziggy, Yeah he has a distinct marking on his head that if you look at with his nose pointed down kind of makes a clown face. You can sort of see hair eyes nose and the big clown mouth is the marking between the eyes. My son wants me to name him Pennywise but that movie always freaked me out.

[BillyCostume]

El Ziggy, Yeah he has a distinct marking on his head that if you look at with his nose pointed down kind of makes a clown face. You can sort of see hair eyes nose and the big clown mouth is the marking between the eyes. My son wants me to name him Pennywise but that movie always freaked me out.

A snake with a pattern that looks like a clown, a real nightmare for many I'm sure haha

[TRD]

Can call it IT then... at least the name is settled ;)

[SerpentineDream]

Perhaps instead of Pennywise you could call him Poundfoolish... the benevolent twin? :D

[Monocled Guy]

:freakedout: Haha