Non-Captive Bred Animals

[scales.jp]

After a lot of delays (I missed the two reptile shows I wanted to attend in the summer due to a broken foot!) it looks like I'm going to be buying my first python sometime in the next couple of weeks. I've spent months going back and forth between different snakes but I've finally settled on a Timor Python. I've been interested in them for a while, and have found three that are all well priced, beautifully patterned and (I'm told by the dealers) are well-behaved, i.e. they don't pee all over you. There are others available, but I've narrowed it down to these three (they're also not too far away for me to go and pick up).

Of the three, my number one choice is a captive-hatched male, currently 120cm. I also want at least one of the other two snakes. She's a 90cm wild-caught female, which I'm assured has no health problems and is feeding well. However, I only have one viv set up at the moment so hopefully she won't be sold to someone else before I get a second viv sorted out. The third snake has a really different pattern to the other two, I haven't spoken to the dealer yet but I'm guessing it's wild-caught and I don't know the sex. It would make a great addition to the group!

My only concern is that non of the snakes are captive bred. The two I really want have both been in captivity for a number of months and appear healthy (they eat well and their poop comes out the way it should), so is there any need to have them checked for parasites once they're settled in? I can probably get a fecal test done easily enough, but not sure about a blood test.

Also, I know that people regularly quarantine newly acquired animals, but what does that really mean? Is there any possibility of a WC animal passing parasites to a CH/CB animal, and if so how long should they be kept apart?

Maybe it's just me being a bit over-cautious. I once had a case of hook worms living in my right leg that I picked up when I was living on an island in Thailand (probably contracted from walking barefoot in an area with a lot of feral dogs). They took a while to get rid of and itched like crazy for months!

[Aaron_S]

Yes get a fecal done anyway on your snakes.

You want to check for external parasites first which is easy enough to be done. Then you want to ensure there's no sign of an RI. Also pretty easily done with knowing the symptoms.

If the snake is eating and pooping fine I'd start with the fecal after the RI and external parasites look over are negative for anything.

What you want to ask is what are the snakes eating and the source of this prey item. Most internal parasites come from eating the prey items that harbour them.

Yes a WC animal can pass something to a captive animal so a 30 - 90 day period is ideal as most things will be caught in that time frame of what I've discussed here.

[jjhill001]

After a lot of delays (I missed the two reptile shows I wanted to attend in the summer due to a broken foot!) it looks like I'm going to be buying my first python sometime in the next couple of weeks. I've spent months going back and forth between different snakes but I've finally settled on a Timor Python. I've been interested in them for a while, and have found three that are all well priced, beautifully patterned and (I'm told by the dealers) are well-behaved, i.e. they don't pee all over you. There are others available, but I've narrowed it down to these three (they're also not too far away for me to go and pick up).

Of the three, my number one choice is a captive-hatched male, currently 120cm. I also want at least one of the other two snakes. She's a 90cm wild-caught female, which I'm assured has no health problems and is feeding well. However, I only have one viv set up at the moment so hopefully she won't be sold to someone else before I get a second viv sorted out. The third snake has a really different pattern to the other two, I haven't spoken to the dealer yet but I'm guessing it's wild-caught and I don't know the sex. It would make a great addition to the group!

My only concern is that non of the snakes are captive bred. The two I really want have both been in captivity for a number of months and appear healthy (they eat well and their poop comes out the way it should), so is there any need to have them checked for parasites once they're settled in? I can probably get a fecal test done easily enough, but not sure about a blood test.

Also, I know that people regularly quarantine newly acquired animals, but what does that really mean? Is there any possibility of a WC animal passing parasites to a CH/CB animal, and if so how long should they be kept apart?

Maybe it's just me being a bit over-cautious. I once had a case of hook worms living in my right leg that I picked up when I was living on an island in Thailand (probably contracted from walking barefoot in an area with a lot of feral dogs). They took a while to get rid of and itched like crazy for months!

The risk of WC disease transfer to an established collection is very real. When I bring in my next set of snakes the quarantine will be at minimum 2-3 months. The important thing is making sure you have separate sets of tools and such. Distance away from each other doesn't seem to be as important as direct contact tools. Always work with your quarantined animals last they say.

There is also an increased risk of having vet bills and what not plus the overall encouragement that the purchase of WC snakes gives to those who take them from the wild.

I know Timors are bred in captivity it might just be a have patience thing to get a CB one. That said if you can't find any, you want what you want so get a trio and hope for the best that you can be the CB supplier for your country if your lucky. The wild caught animals we have are healthier than the wildcaught animals they had back in the 90s because instead of spending months on a cargo ship they spend a week on a plane and then in customs. Thats a good thing for folks like us that may want to try something that is nearly unavailable as CB.

[scales.jp]

Thanks for the advice. I don't have the space to keep new animals in a separate room so if I end up buying more than one I'll just have to be extra-careful keeping things clean. I think it'll be a long time before CB Timors become available here, but I might wait to see if a captive hatched female shows up next year.

When I used to keep chameleons three of them were wild caught and they were all housed together without any trouble. One of them was a rescue animal I was given which required veterinary attention, but nothing parasite related.

I would love to try breeding a few years down the line. Keeping retics here is prohibited without a permit that can be almost impossible to obtain, even for dwarfs and super-dwarfs. I think Timors are a great alternative.

[pet_snake_78]

Yikes, no quarantine is asking for trouble regardless of captive born vs wild caught. There are viruses that can wipe out your entire collection as has happened in both public and private settings. Find a closet or something to use. Use gloves, make sure you know how to properly remove them. Always service Qt area last and immediately wash and sanitize hands afterwards.

[scales.jp]

Yikes, no quarantine is asking for trouble regardless of captive born vs wild caught.

I think you would be quite surprised at the way things are done over here. There are very few breeders so almost everything is imported, even if it's CB. Most dealers keep wild-caught and captive-bred animals right next to one another. My friend runs a "reptile cafe" where you can handle any of the animals one after the other without sanitizing your hands in between while you enjoy coffee and waffles! Every time I visit he has new animals, and the snakes are often wild caught.

I know he doesn't quarantine them, at least not in the way described here. Most of his new animals are also for sale. I think a lot of other dealers operate similarly, and to be honest I would consider getting a fecal test done even if I bought a CB animal.

[scales.jp]

I just called the main vet in Tokyo that deals with snakes and they can do a fecal examination (direct and flotation method) for just $20. They can do it via mail which is great as I live 400 miles from Tokyo! They also gave me the name of a vet in my area who works with reptiles and can supply medicine if it's necessary. Sorted!

[TRD]

I think you would be quite surprised at the way things are done over here. There are very few breeders so almost everything is imported, even if it's CB. Most dealers keep wild-caught and captive-bred animals right next to one another. My friend runs a "reptile cafe" where you can handle any of the animals one after the other without sanitizing your hands in between while you enjoy coffee and waffles! Every time I visit he has new animals, and the snakes are often wild caught.

I know he doesn't quarantine them, at least not in the way described here. Most of his new animals are also for sale. I think a lot of other dealers operate similarly, and to be honest I would consider getting a fecal test done even if I bought a CB animal.

We have a similar cafe here, I went there once but I felt immensely sorry for those reptiles and mammals. The kids loved it, but if you know just a thing or two about husbandry and general animal care it's a nightmare. The animals basically gave up on natural behaviors and were just placid beyond what can be considered normal.

I mean it's already borderline to keep animals in such place behind glass, but to have chameleons and agama's (some bearded, by also water agama) going from hand to hand with kids poking them and so on, poor things, they aren't stress resilient in the slightest.

When I asked about that, they said "but we switch them often so they have a "time off" as well..." yes, sure, but at least once or twice a day for a prolonged period they are just being carried around from table to table and manhandled. Damn. They lost their **** and turned those beautiful animals into a revenue stream. It's fine to bring those animals closer to humans, and have humans actually care about their habitat destruction or so... but the method they employed I wholeheartedly disagree with. It is not educational beyond knowing that a chameleon isn't soft and rubbery :P

[scales.jp]

We have a similar cafe here, I went there once but I felt immensely sorry for those reptiles and mammals.:P

Yes, plus a lot of those animals are also for sale! Unfortunately, these cafes are becoming more and more popular. My friend with the cafe is a really great guy, but I wouldn't buy anything from his shop (don't tell him I said that!).

I read up a lot on quarantine last night, the lengths some people go to are almost enough to put me off buying any snakes at all! Anyway, I started putting my quarantine cage together today. It's just a large plastic container with buckle locks placed on some wooden slats so I can put a heat panel underneath. All the 'furniture' I put in there will be disposable, feeding utensils will be disposable chopsticks. I'll spray the container with an anti-mite spray before placing the snake in there and clean it thoroughly every day until I'm sure there are no mites and the fecal test comes back clean. If it takes longer than 90 days, so be it.

As I don't have any other animals at the moment I'm not worried about spreading any airborne diseases, I just want the snake to be in the best possible health before moving him to his regular viv. If I buy another snake next year I'll have everything ready for it to go into quarantine and repeat the process, in a separate room if possible.

[scales.jp]

I've set up my quarantine enclosure and everything is fine for now. The UTH has a built in rheostat and is adjustable between 25-45℃. At the moment the room temperature is 26℃, but this will start to drop soon and there is no heating in the room. Will this be okay with just the UTH? I've read that Timors do well with winter daytime temps as low as 21℃ and nighttime 18℃.

Also, after the quarantine period is over, what happens to all the gear you've used? The cage furniture can be thrown away, but obviously I don't want to throw out a $45 heat panel and I'd like to reuse the tub (after cleaning and disinfecting, of course).

One last thing. I'll be disinfecting everything in the bathroom, but what do you do about disposing of dirty water when spot cleaning? I'm guessing down the toilet is best.

If this is all okay, I'll hopefully be getting my snake this weekend.:)

[PatrickV]

last month i picked up a trio of Macklot's Pythons, WC. When i got home, realized one had mites which i couldnt see when i checked him out in the store. couple days after, realized another one had external parasites on her. I took them to an exotic pet vet a breeder recommended. got ivermectin for the mites and some other pills for the external parasite, i put the pills inside the rats that are fed to them. I have zero space for a quarantine area so they are in their own enclosures in my main snake room with 8 boas and 1 bp. the mites are gone and external parasites are diminishing. obviously a quarantine situation would've been ideal, and im learning that now. im lucky though, and the mites didnt spread, neither did anything related to the parasites. I will not introduce another WC into my collection ever again just because i learned the risks are high. The quarantine you are committing to is a great idea. i would think the things you use with your quarantined animal can be re-used if you meticulously sterilize them. dirty water in the toilet is definitely best. good luck with your new snakes! and a trip to the vet is always a good idea, if your ever in the area of one.

[scales.jp]

... a trip to the vet is always a good idea, if your ever in the area of one.

Thanks, the snake I'm going to see at the weekend is captive hatched, but that was on a farm in Indonesia so who knows what it was fed before arriving in Japan. I spoke to the shop owner again the other day and they've had the snake for a year, since it was very small. He assures me it has no mites and is perfectly healthy. If I decide to buy the snake, the quarantine tub will be sprayed with an all natural anti-mite spray inside and out, and I'm going to get a fecal test done ASAP. The test only costs $20, a small price to pay for peace of mind and a healthy snake. Once he's got the all clear and I'm certain there aren't any mites, he can go in his permanent enclosure.

The other two Timor Pythons I'm looking at are both young females, but wild caught. Hopefully the CH male will be a good dummy run in case I decide to buy one (or both) of them next year.

[pet_snake_78]

Internal parasites for which there is a known route to remove are not too big of a deal, but you can have stuff literally come in and wipe out your entire collection which are barely known viruses or other disease with no known cure. Snake fungal disease is increasingly common in US wild snakes, for example, and there is no known agreed upon treatment protocol for which can be safely assumed to render the animal acceptable for return to the collection regardless of displayed symptoms or lack thereof. I treat every incoming specimen like it has the plague because there is no telling which one is going to be the one to wipe out someone's collection. A quarantine period does not give one absolute safety as asymptomatic carrier and long incubation times are possible, but it at least gives you a fighting chance.

[scales.jp]

The way I see it here in Japan, as the majority of dealers keep captive bred and wild caught animals in vivs side by side, CB animals are just as likely to be carrying the same viruses as whatever came in with the last shipment of WC animals. I know the shop I'm going to on Monday recently obtained a couple of WC Brazilian rainbow boas (heaven knows why, they aren't exactly rare snakes). They also have a booth at most of the big reptile events where there are literally thousands of snakes in the same room. All I can do is keep my fingers crossed the snake I want is healthy.