Reptile Heat Panel Heater

[scales.jp]

Just wondering if anyone else uses these panel heaters from Exo-Terra (just scroll down a little to see them):
঒Ž—Þ Ž”ˆç—p•i •Û‰·ŠÖ˜A—p•i ƒGƒLƒ] ƒeƒ‰ ƒWƒFƒbƒNƒXŠ”Ž®‰ïŽÐ (http://www.gex-fp.co.jp/exoterra/products/thermo.html)

They're the only Exo-Terra under tank heaters available here in Japan, and don't adhere to the bottom of the enclosure like the ones I've seen available overseas. They just lie on the floor underneath the viv, leaving a gap of about 10mm between the heat panel and the floor of the viv.

I've been running mine for the past couple of days without any substrate, and the glass floor surface directly above the heater is getting up to 38C/100F. The instructions (and dealer) say a thermostat isn't necessary as the panel has a safety fuse, but common sense is telling me this is too hot! I'm going to put some newspaper down and test it again to see if the temperature will come down a few degrees, otherwise I'll use the thermostat I have on my heat bulb and just run the bulb without a thermostat for now (left running 24 hours the warm side air temps don't get above 33-34C/91-93F, cool side at 28C/82F).

[Scubadiver59]

You are going to need a thermostat, I don't care what the manufacturer says.

Every snake is different and you need to find a temperature sweet spot for that snake.

Just wondering if anyone else uses these panel heaters from Exo-Terra (just scroll down a little to see them):
঒Ž—Þ Ž”ˆç—p•i •Û‰·ŠÖ˜A—p•i ƒGƒLƒ] ƒeƒ‰ ƒWƒFƒbƒNƒXŠ”Ž®‰ïŽÐ (http://www.gex-fp.co.jp/exoterra/products/thermo.html)

They're the only Exo-Terra under tank heaters available here in Japan, and don't adhere to the bottom of the enclosure like the ones I've seen available overseas. They just lie on the floor underneath the viv, leaving a gap of about 10mm between the heat panel and the floor of the viv.

I've been running mine for the past couple of days without any substrate, and the glass floor surface directly above the heater is getting up to 38C/100F. The instructions (and dealer) say a thermostat isn't necessary as the panel has a safety fuse, but common sense is telling me this is too hot! I'm going to put some newspaper down and test it again to see if the temperature will come down a few degrees, otherwise I'll use the thermostat I have on my heat bulb and just run the bulb without a thermostat for now (left running 24 hours the warm side air temps don't get above 33-34C/91-93F, cool side at 28C/82F).

[scales.jp]

I told the shop staff I wanted a separate thermostat for the mat and he convinced me I wouldn't need one. Classic case of BS baffles brains! I might just buy a CHE as I originally intended, and keep the heat bulb I have for a basking spot.

[akane]

It may not get too hot to touch or cause fires due to safety features but that doesn't mean it will hold x temperature in every situation. You would have to adjust the enclosure or size and setup of the heater to get a specific temp and that would only hold if the room then held very specifically. Without a thermostat it's subject to the conditions and fluctuations of the enclosure and surrounding area. Same with a CHE or anything else. Not that it can't be done with some species that have evolved to deal with temp fluctuations but you have to calculate a lot of variables and match the heat source size, height, spread.... with everything else to a specially setup enclosure for temperature gradients in a room kept temp stable no matter what. For most situations and species no heat source will work safely without a thermostat and certainly it won't keep a very accurate temp for species that don't do fluctuations.

[pet_snake_78]

You pretty much just always need a tstat if you're keeping reptiles.

[REM955]

You pretty much just always need a tstat if you're keeping reptiles.

To play devil's advocate, can you think of an instance for no thermostat?

[akane]

My bulls don't all have them. Technically if I could replicate a sun warmed and a sheltered enough area I could just open the windows and they'd live in my local temps except how deep of brumation is needed in full winter but not wanting my house to be outdoors instead I try to copy it in a more temp controlled surrounding. My house is never without a.c. or heat to a specific temp with the circulating fan on for all rooms to stay even. If we have a temp increase my chinchillas can die at high 70s and other things won't have strong enough heating before the bulls get too cold so I have to correct things long before basic room temp is outside bull snake livable. They have long cages with caves on dirt that at the hottest out of season temp spike in winter led to a cool side cave not quite reaching 80f and that's where the snake went right away. I found not all species have that strong of instinct and the blood python would mostly just sit and wait it out. Provided a section of the cage is not really heated the bulls and many NA colubrids along with rosy boas immediately go there, settle into the dirt, and they don't even experience what they would outside as a native species. I mostly just worry if they recently ate full meals and the power goes out in the cold, which has nothing to do with the function of a thermostat. My house has blown nearly every incandescent and 2 actual power strips overnight before. More complex electronics, fluorescent, and che were fine. I mostly have everything replaced but I have to order che online only so my desert snakes and younger ones are prioritized over adult colubrids if I run out of che versus incandescent.

My crested geckos also don't have thermostats but they don't really need heat. People will breed them in high 60s without heat sources and they shouldn't go over 80f with fluctuations in the 70s normal for their environment so some have enough heating to raise about 3 degrees to keep part of the tank in ideal 70s part of the day for better breeding. Exact temp is unimportant and not even fully agreed on within that range limited by area and not run 24hrs.

[scales.jp]

You are going to need a thermostat, I don't care what the manufacturer says.

You pretty much just always need a tstat if you're keeping reptiles.

To play devil's advocate, can you think of an instance for no thermostat?

I would never set up an viv without a thermostat, but I was planning to use mine in conjunction with the main heat lamp to provide a steady 24 hour air temperature (it's a black bulb that puts out almost zero light). In the past I used stats with tube heaters to do do the same thing in my Panther chameleon enclosures.

This is the first time I've set up a viv since coming to Japan, and the first for a medium/large snake. I was told I would need the heat panel to provide additional heat for when it gets colder as houses here aren't central heated.

After being persuaded I wouldn't need a thermostat, I imagined it would run just warm enough to provide gentle additional belly heat. I also imagine most people here that buy them don't even bother testing them first, but just do as they're instructed, probably with a thick substrate to absorb a lot of the heat.

Anyway, I put it on a thermostat set at 32C/90F overnight and it works fine. The heat lamp is now running without a stat and the overnight temp on the warm side was around 29C/84F (cool side 26C/79F). It will warm up during the day, but things are now pretty much exactly where I want them.:)

[TRD]

Never trust petshop owners..

PS. I have no thermostats! But I have different control method. Also not using CHE, RHP, Heatmats.. for those things stats are a must.

[scales.jp]

Never trust petshop owners..

He seemed like he was genuinely trying to help me set things up in the best way possible for the snake I was considering (an Angolan python, but now it looks like I'll probably be getting a Carpet python instead). I just think he was giving advice based on the maker's instructions, which are potentially dangerous.

[TRD]

It can be all in good faith but most petshop workers simply go by whatever instructions they've read on the packages of the products.. ie- if a heatmat doesn't specifically states that it needs a thermostat it won't be needed (as per manufacturer's instructions). It's actually not the poor guy's fault, they just go by what manufacturers state on their products.

[jjhill001]

To play devil's advocate, can you think of an instance for no thermostat?

If you're keeping monitor lizards/bearded dragons and your tank is as big as it's supposed to be with proper ventilation, they bask in temps up in the 140+ Fahrenheit range. You'd be able to find a CHE/light combo that hits that temp probably pretty easy making the thermostat kind of useless if the CHE and Light are operating at max capacity.

In terms of active baskers IE diurnal lizards (basically that's it) I would probably shoot for finding the right sized bulb that I wouldn't need a thermostat. Having a light click on and off all day is probably not the best idea for your reptiles or your own sanity.

Back in the wild west days I never once used a thermostat for anything and honestly never had much of an issue however I do chalk that up to dumb luck and the fact that most of my collection was native amphibians at the time so I didn't really need much in the way of heating except for a few snakes and a leopard gecko.

[scales.jp]

You'd be able to find a CHE/light combo that hits that temp probably pretty easy making the thermostat kind of useless if the CHE and Light are operating at max capacity.

I could do that in the colder months, and turn the heat bulb off completely during the warm/hot months. It's the in between months where having a thermostat would make life easier.:)

[Andy_G]

To play devil's advocate, can you think of an instance for no thermostat?

Species that require no heating device and can be kept successfully at room temp. ;)

[TRD]

To play devil's advocate, can you think of an instance for no thermostat?

The sun is substantially hotter than any light/CHE bulb, the only reason why the ground isn't freaking hot outside is because there's plenty of ventilation. With other words; if you ventilate your vivarium with a controlled fan, have a stable ambient temp outside the viv, then you don't need a thermostat for heating. You can literally keep ambient at room temp, say 25 C, and have a large 45 C basking area in a 2' vivarium by providing airflow. No amount of thermostats, lamp combinations, heating elements, etc, is going to enable such temperatures in such small space.

But this is extra setup, monitoring, costs... And yea, you still need a thermostat on the COOL end for safety if the fan fails.

So, to answer the question; no you don't necessarily need a thermostat to moderate the heating to get a certain temperature, but you do need one for fail-safe.

This is how I setup my vivs. I want high basking temps, but normal ambient temps. Species which bask in tropical/desert environments around the equator may life in environments that have ambient temps at or about 28- 29C but the ground temperature on which they bask is a whole lot higher.

[scales.jp]

Species which bask in tropical/desert environments around the equator may life in environments that have ambient temps at or about 28- 29C but the ground temperature on which they bask is a whole lot higher.

So going back to my original problem: "I've been running mine for the past couple of days without any substrate, and the glass floor surface directly above the heater is getting up to 38C/100F. The instructions (and dealer) say a thermostat isn't necessary..."

Do you think the instructions to not need a stat are actually correct in this case, considering I was thinking of a set up for a desert species (Angolan python)? I've moved countless rat snakes that I've found basking in the middle of the road in my neighborhood to safer locations when the air temps are over 36C/97F. The road surface is considerably hotter, I think it's safe to say well over 40C/104F (and judging by how often the snakes repay my thoughtfulness with a bite, they would have been perfectly happy to have stayed where they were!).

[TRD]

One should never keep large/larger heavy bodied snakes on a heat mat because of thermo blocking and the resulting problems (read: possible thermal burns) that may result from it. Even a thermostat isn't going to help against that because it will only read 1 certain point of the mat, and not the whole mat itself.

[Andy_G]

One should never keep large/larger heavy bodied snakes on a heat mat because of thermo blocking and the resulting problems (read: possible thermal burns) that may result from it. Even a thermostat isn't going to help against that because it will only read 1 certain point of the mat, and not the whole mat itself.

Not to stir the pot, and I certainly don't want to be dismissive, but this (thermal blocking) is never brought up or mentioned in North America, or at least not that I have heard over the past 16 years or so even in the giants community, and heat mats are widely used at all levels (people keeping pets all the way up to zoological facilties) here as either primary/sole sources or secondary sources of heat. Are there actually any documented cases where a thermostat did what it was supposed to do but a burn still resulted due to thermal blocking? It doesn't really concern me much because the largest I would personally own is a boa and I would use RHP instead of belly heat, but I am very curious. I want to be clear that I am actually interested in experience from a keeper who has had this happen and not a scientific paper that could possibly misapply the concept. Thanks in advance. :)

[scales.jp]

...this (thermal blocking) is never brought up or mentioned in North America, or at least not that I have heard over the past 16 years or so even in the giants community, and heat mats are widely used at all levels

Don't rack systems usually use under belly heat, regardless of species? I imagine larger facilities just control the room temp, but most of the racks I've seen use flexwatt heat tape.

[Andy_G]

Don't rack systems usually use under belly heat, regardless of species? I imagine larger facilities just control the room temp, but most of the racks I've seen use flexwatt heat tape.

Back or belly heat.

[TRD]

Well Andy, I don't have the experience myself as I don't use such heating sources but then there is the following;

1. Reptiles (snakes in particular) do not sense something that is too hot, even burning hot. Nobody seems to really understand why. Can be evolutionary as it holds no function for them, or maybe they do feel the pain but they do not associate it with the ground and understand they have to move away from it to stop. (Mader, DM). As someone (Fran Baines) also pointed out, they may associate light with heat, so even a brightly lid and perhaps extremely hot vivarium will still be an order of magnitude dimmer than outside full sunshine, hence the animal doesn't think it is too hot.
2. Snakes do not burn the same as mammals do. It can take several days for a 1st/2nd degree burn to show up after the fact and as such has the potential to become far worse due to that delay
3. Thermal blocking is simple to proof, something simply heats up when heat can't get away effectively. Ie- when part of the mat is covered which doesn't include the sensor, then the part block and not under the sensor will simply be hotter than the rest. Bad sensor placement of course plays a role here

There are many pictures around of thermal burns, mostly on ball pythons, we all know how most of them are kept.

I would be very cautious when using a heatmat. Humans burn skin with prolonged contact at 110 F, I don't know if the same applies to snakes but it's likely close to it.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, I know there are literally 10000s of snakes held on heatmats even without a thermostat on a paperthin substrate and they have no issues with burns. I just think it's a risk that can quite easily be avoided.

[Andy_G]

I'd be willing to bet that all of those burns you mention are not due to thermal blocking...especially in regards to something as small as a ball python, and I still can't wrap my head aroud the concept being applied with snakes or even animals in general...I think of the instance of Kane brand heat mats being used for various livestock (pigs, cows..i'm talking fairly large bodied) that would sleep on them in cool barns in the winter...although they may be mindful enough to move when awake if the mats got too hot, asleep would be a different story and these burns just don't happen, but I will remain with an open mind and if I ever see someone experience it I will be the first guy to post it on here. Would I personally consider it when giving advice for husbandry at this time? No. I just don't see the risk to exist as you do.

Although I thank you for that information that you posted, it is not what I was looking for, but thank you nonetheless.

[jay's reptiles]

I don't use heatpads for any of my snakes. i only use che and stats for all of them.

[Aaron_S]

So going back to my original problem: "I've been running mine for the past couple of days without any substrate, and the glass floor surface directly above the heater is getting up to 38C/100F. The instructions (and dealer) say a thermostat isn't necessary..."

Do you think the instructions to not need a stat are actually correct in this case, considering I was thinking of a set up for a desert species (Angolan python)? I've moved countless rat snakes that I've found basking in the middle of the road in my neighborhood to safer locations when the air temps are over 36C/97F. The road surface is considerably hotter, I think it's safe to say well over 40C/104F (and judging by how often the snakes repay my thoughtfulness with a bite, they would have been perfectly happy to have stayed where they were!).


Use a thermostat. If for some reason your probe or something moves/fails the alarms will go off to notify you of an issue of too high or too low of heat.

Also, not to nitpick too much but angolan's are a savannah animal. Not desert. You'd set them up similar to a ball python but with a bit more height as they tend to be semi-arboreal.


Well Andy, I don't have the experience myself as I don't use such heating sources but then there is the following;

1. Reptiles (snakes in particular) do not sense something that is too hot, even burning hot. Nobody seems to really understand why. Can be evolutionary as it holds no function for them, or maybe they do feel the pain but they do not associate it with the ground and understand they have to move away from it to stop. (Mader, DM). As someone (Fran Baines) also pointed out, they may associate light with heat, so even a brightly lid and perhaps extremely hot vivarium will still be an order of magnitude dimmer than outside full sunshine, hence the animal doesn't think it is too hot.
2. Snakes do not burn the same as mammals do. It can take several days for a 1st/2nd degree burn to show up after the fact and as such has the potential to become far worse due to that delay
3. Thermal blocking is simple to proof, something simply heats up when heat can't get away effectively. Ie- when part of the mat is covered which doesn't include the sensor, then the part block and not under the sensor will simply be hotter than the rest. Bad sensor placement of course plays a role here

There are many pictures around of thermal burns, mostly on ball pythons, we all know how most of them are kept.

I would be very cautious when using a heatmat. Humans burn skin with prolonged contact at 110 F, I don't know if the same applies to snakes but it's likely close to it.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, I know there are literally 10000s of snakes held on heatmats even without a thermostat on a paperthin substrate and they have no issues with burns. I just think it's a risk that can quite easily be avoided.

So you are saying due to thermal burns in ball pythons it MUST be bellyheat/thermal blocking causing them? Correlation does not equate causation.

Do you know 100% of these burns that there was no escape for the built up heat? Most of the time heat pads have instructions to leave a space below them attached to the underside of the enclosure. If you're suggesting people blindly follow pet store/read instructions then this is something they'd do.

Are we sure it isn't a malfunction of the heat mat itself?

Are we sure the keeper isn't improperly using the product?

Nothing to do with ball pythons being the example as that's just the most commonly kept species by new keepers.


I'm not being dismissive of thermal blocking but I'd like better evidence instead of "ball pythons are kept on belly heat and have burns therefore our theory of thermal block is real and we should never do this!"

I believe thermal blocking can be real, probably to do moreso with giants but it isn't an epidemic.

[Scubadiver59]

Most Thermostats will cut power to UTH if it exceeds your "high" alarm setting. i normally set my Herpstat " high" temp (conservatively) three degrees higher than my day temp setting though I guess I could set it five. My low alarm setting is three degrees low.

Use a thermostat. If for some reason your probe or something moves/fails the alarms will go off to notify you of an issue of too high or too low of heat.

[Aaron_S]

Most Thermostats will cut power to UTH if it exceeds your "high" alarm setting. i normally set my Herpstat " high" temp (conservatively) three degrees higher than my day temp setting though I guess I could set it five. My low alarm setting is three degrees low.

Mine are 5 both ways. It's saved me when I didn't realize I hit a probe and moved it off the heat tape.

[TRD]

Nop, nobody is sure about anything in regards to the use of UTH. Even from accounts of people on the internet posting about a thermal burn and stating they are using a thermostat can not be taken as truth.

I rather go by literature on thermal burns in reptiles from reliable sources (reptile vets) which states that they seen several 1000s of thermal burns on snakes, and most pictures of them show burned bellies. Whether they were burned by uncontrolled UTH, coiled up on a heat lamp at night and burned when it switched on in the morning, or whichever other reason is of course debatable.

One could try and place something heavy (like a heavy book) on the side of the terra where the UTH is that doesn't have the probe right there and measure the temperature difference an hour or so later. I would be curious if there's a significant difference.

In any case, I know UTHs have their place, just I do not particularly like them as heat source. It seems to go against the logic of nature where heat comes from above in the form of radiation, and shadow is suppose to be cooler.

[Andy_G]

So...keep in mind I prefer rhp over heat tape as I say all of this...in actuality what you are basing your thoughts on is speculation and personal bias/affinity coupled with science that is usually applied in situations involving stationary inanimate objects where no airflow exists in retrospect to something related to our hobby such as properly using heat pads or tape where one side must be left open with a gap to exchange airflow and avoid thermal blocking between two hard surfaces...which has nothing to do with a snake...even a large one...coiled on a heat pad. Also perhaps consider that heat can come from both above and below in nature and using one while condemning the other in captivity could also come down to personal bias. I really wish people would offer relevantly applied studies with proper setups to back up opinions on thermal blocking with reptiles as you're describing...which as you describe is what would occur between a snake and belly heat...before claiming a risk to exist. I don't feel that to be unfair and It's a witch hunt to me at this point where things are just being applied incorrectly. Agree to disagree, or perhaps more accurately stated, agree to have vastly differing opinions I suppose. :)

[dannybgoode]

Bear in mind Andy that in Europe and the UK uth's are rarely actually uth and more often actually in the viv so the snake can make direct contact with it.

This leads to a much increased risk of thermal blocking / burns due to lack of stat control.

Burns by thermal blocking are very much recorded in the UK as are viv fires caused by people putting too much substrate on top of them - again causing blocking.

As I say this is predominantly due to the fact the over here heat mats are placed in, not under vivs.

[scales.jp]

Use a thermostat. If for some reason your probe or something moves/fails the alarms will go off to notify you of an issue of too high or too low of heat.

My thermostat doesn't have an alarm, just a lamp to show if it's on or off.

Also, not to nitpick too much but angolan's are a savannah animal. Not desert.

Sorry, my poor choice of words. What I meant was from an arid climate.

It seems to go against the logic of nature where heat comes from above in the form of radiation, and shadow is suppose to be cooler.

I think it's based on the the theory that animals like ball pythons spend a lot of time in completely dark places like termite mounds where the inside temperature can get as hot as (hotter than?) the outside temperature.

...in Europe and the UK uth's are rarely actually uth and more often actually in the viv so the snake can make direct contact with it.
This leads to a much increased risk of thermal blocking / burns due to lack of stat control.

Putting the mat in the viv just sounds like a bad idea all round. The highest temperature I recorded on the viv floor surface without using a stat was just over 38C/100F, but that was through 4mm of glass with a gap of about 1cm between the bottom of the viv and the heat panel on the floor underneath. The manufacturer states that the mat surface can reach up to 45±5C/104-122F and that it should NEVER be placed in the viv (nor should the bottom of the viv come into direct contact with the mat).

I ended up moving mine to the cool side of the viv with the stat set at 25C/77F just to keep the floor from getting too cold in winter. When I had it at the warm end, the heat lamp was already warming the floor to a higher temp than I had the heat mat set at, so it never switched on anyway!

[dannybgoode]

Given vivs over here are generally 15mm or 18mm wood (chipboard) then there is little choice but to put the mat in the viv if that's what you want to use for heat as it simply wouldn't work through such a thickness of material.

[jjhill001]

The sun is substantially hotter than any light/CHE bulb, the only reason why the ground isn't freaking hot outside is because there's plenty of ventilation. With other words; if you ventilate your vivarium with a controlled fan, have a stable ambient temp outside the viv, then you don't need a thermostat for heating. You can literally keep ambient at room temp, say 25 C, and have a large 45 C basking area in a 2' vivarium by providing airflow. No amount of thermostats, lamp combinations, heating elements, etc, is going to enable such temperatures in such small space.

But this is extra setup, monitoring, costs... And yea, you still need a thermostat on the COOL end for safety if the fan fails.

So, to answer the question; no you don't necessarily need a thermostat to moderate the heating to get a certain temperature, but you do need one for fail-safe.

This is how I setup my vivs. I want high basking temps, but normal ambient temps. Species which bask in tropical/desert environments around the equator may life in environments that have ambient temps at or about 28- 29C but the ground temperature on which they bask is a whole lot higher.

Plus there is a reason that the majority of tropical and desert species are crepuscular or nocturnal.

[scales.jp]

Given vivs over here are generally 15mm or 18mm wood (chipboard) then there is little choice but to put the mat in the viv if that's what you want to use for heat as it simply wouldn't work through such a thickness of material.

That's when tube heaters come in handy. One of those on a thermostat 24/7 with a spot bulb on during the day and your all set (both behind a wire guard, obviously). Given that option, I'm not sure why anyone would risk putting a heat mat directly in the viv.

[dannybgoode]

Because pet shops sell heat mats with vivs unfortunately and it's the only way to set them up.

Wrong I know but that's how it is.

[TRD]

I think it's based on the the theory that animals like ball pythons spend a lot of time in completely dark places like termite mounds where the inside temperature can get as hot as (hotter than?) the outside temperature.


Problem is that ball pythons do not do that the majority of the time. This "theory" is only born from the period of the year that Ball Pythons are/were harvested for the pet trade in which they shelter in holes and people think this is how they live all year round - which is far from the truth. Male BPs are normally found in trees, for example. Females hiding in scrub. Not really in holes.

I can try and dig up some documents on their natural behavior, but it's a large dig.

[scales.jp]

Thermal blocking is simple to proof, something simply heats up when heat can't get away effectively. Ie- when part of the mat is covered which doesn't include the sensor, then the part block and not under the sensor will simply be hotter than the rest. Bad sensor placement of course plays a role here.
...
I would be very cautious when using a heatmat. Humans burn skin with prolonged contact at 110 F, I don't know if the same applies to snakes but it's likely close to it.

I decided to do one final experiment to see if there's any way this heat panel can be used as directed without the viv floor getting dangerously hot (mat underneath the viv with at least 1cm space between the mat and the viv floor). The only possible way I could see would be to put down enough substrate to "soak up" some of the excess heat. I left the mat on overnight to warm up, then this morning placed four newspapers inside the viv (total thickness of 70 sheets) as substrate to help dissipate the heat. I placed one thermometer probe on the newspaper surface and one under it, directly on the glass floor.

I left it for an hour or so until the temperatures had levelled out. Here are the temps I got (hygrometers were left outside the viv so you can ignore the humidity readings):
37280

The newspaper effectively dissipated the heat to 31.3C/88.3F (down form 38C/100F), but the temperature underneath the substrate went up to 46C/114.8F!!! I was starting to get worried that the sealant around the viv floor might melt it felt so hot!

This was with the mat being used outside the enclosure as per the manufacturers instructions, so it's no wonder accidents happen when the mat is placed inside the enclosure, especially with bigger and heavier animals.