Snake shipping question

[whistlepig]

So after searching for quite some time, I finally found a speckled kingsnake on kingsnake.com to purchase. The breeder lived in California (I'm in Illinois) and so he shipped it yesterday overnight and it arrived today, but was not alive. I had thought from reading on here that shipping snakes was fairly routine, does this happen with a regular frequency or was I just extremely unlucky? I would like to know before I ever try it again. Thanks.

[Scubadiver59]

Who was the seller? There are some sellers that are notorious for shipping snakes that are DOA.

Either way, contact the seller and they should refund your money. They can go to the shipping company and get their own refund.

[whistlepig]

Scuba, I PM'd you the name. I don't want to call him out on a forum as I don't know that it was necessarily his fault. By all indications that I could tell, she seemed to be packaged with care. I've contacted the seller, but really I'm more disappointed about not having a snake right now than the money.

[Scubadiver59]

Okay, I understand and agree with your decision.

It is a shame the snake didn't make it. Did the seller have the box marked fragile and that it contained a live animal? Was the snake shipped in a plastic container nestled inside a Styrofoam box for insulation? If not, did the seller put a heat pack in the box? Cargo planes can get notoriously cold--I know I've flown enough of them when in the Air Force--so if it got too cold then a snake would freeze to death.

Do you have any pictures of the packaging?

Scuba, I PM'd you the name. I don't want to call him out on a forum as I don't know that it was necessarily his fault. By all indications that I could tell, she seemed to be packaged with care. I've contacted the seller, but really I'm more disappointed about not having a snake right now than the money.

[akane]

Usually they ship quite well. I've had plenty of reptiles arrive fine and I can't even pick them up right away. I have them held at the fedex facility and get them in the afternoon. However, everyone used one of the 2 reptile specific services. They do go through fedex's setup for at least the one I've had commonly used but only specific hubs and shipping routes with all the ideal materials made available from one source and predesigned for each box and reptile size.

[whistlepig]

I can post pictures of the shipping later. It was a small box labeled "Perishable, handle with care" on the side. Inside, there was a Styrofoam box with the snake inside a lidded container filled with aspen (I think) shavings.

Akane, thanks for the info, I was unaware of the reptile specific services. If I ever try this again I'll ask about that.

Incidentally, I kinda do want to call the guy out now (but I won't). He told me no refund because "he knows he did nothing wrong with the packaging" and that he's never lost one before. He did tell me I can try and get the money back from FedEx, though I'm not sure how that works since I sent him the money to ship her and presumably he paid for it under his name. Lesson learned the hard way, I guess.

[jjhill001]

That seems a bit weird. He should give you money back and then go after fedex himself. That's how that is supposed to work. Post a pic of the snake too if you still have it.

[Scubadiver59]

You can do one of two things:

One, if you paid via PayPal, notify them and put in a complaint. That will hold things up and if they find in your favor they will get your money back.

Two, if you paid by credit card, you can always notify your credit card company and they can start their own investigation.

Also, next time, make the seller agree to a DOA statement that "live delivery is guaranteed".

In the meantime, if you bought it off of Kingsnake.com, go see if there is a forum you can use to voice your displeasure with the seller. I haven't used them yet, but I had planned to, so I guess that's something I will have to look into as well.

I can post pictures of the shipping later. It was a small box labeled "Perishable, handle with care" on the side. Inside, there was a Styrofoam box with the snake inside a lidded container filled with aspen (I think) shavings.

Akane, thanks for the info, I was unaware of the reptile specific services. If I ever try this again I'll ask about that.

Incidentally, I kinda do want to call the guy out now (but I won't). He told me no refund because "he knows he did nothing wrong with the packaging" and that he's never lost one before. He did tell me I can try and get the money back from FedEx, though I'm not sure how that works since I sent him the money to ship her and presumably he paid for it under his name. Lesson learned the hard way, I guess.

[akane]

If they didn't use a reptile service you can make a fedex claim but I'm not sure how it works with live items sent standard fedex and it may be the seller's job to prove appropriate packaging because it's their own chosen packaging. It starts out automated on their site and you need the tracking number, any documentation of the "damaged" contents, documentation of the money you sent for it's value, and then keep the packaging at least (usually the damaged item but probably not dead bodies) because if the claim goes through they may want to inspect it. Did you use paypal? That is also frequently used at least in US to US shipping compared to other money transactions because for one you have a solid receipt of addresses and money to show if necessary and you can also issue a refund request through paypal if you submit it correctly but it does look bad to other sellers sometimes to demand a refund that way and likely you'll never get anything from that seller again. If you've got a dead reptile with no explanation or refund you probably don't want to bother with that person again and it's sometimes the correct course of action if the seller is at fault or has a guarantee in writing that they are not honoring. If there was no live arrival guarantee (provided the buyer properly picks up and handles the reptile until it is opened and proven healthy or not) it's more on the buyer to have made that choice. Personally I would not deal with someone who has no live arrival guarantee and does not file the shipping damage claim themselves if the company is most definitely at fault unless there are certain circumstances that I'd agree to up front on the shipping risk. Too many people are too casual with live animals if they have no guarantee they'll lose the money for it dying and it can be a sign they don't care about the health of the animals they are sending out if they make no guarantee. You don't know what you'll get in that case. Some sites with classifieds have a report section to at least open a dispute for others to check in the future before buying from someone and it's taken very seriously on someone's reputation but again because of that it can look bad as a buyer to complain unless you are proven without doubt to be in the right. Reputation can be won or lost fast in online interactions over reptiles.

Usually I have had people use https://shipyourreptiles.com/, which has all the supplies, specific temp requirements they honor, and specific shipping routes. Another big one is Home - Reptiles Express - Discounted Fedex Shipping Labels and Reptile Shipping Supplies (http://www.reptilesexpress.com/) for reptile specific fedex connected services. Many use such companies for US and Canada shipping instead of standard services through the shipping companies. The materials are to their standards, cut to set sizes with suggestions if you aren't knowledgeable yet, and they deal only in live reptile claims so it's easier to file a shipping problem if it happens. The only time I've considered shipping otherwise were several cent each feeder lizards in good weather because it's usually a $40 minimum through those services if we are talking a short route and small reptiles. It makes it not really worth the cost for some situations of inexpensive, short lived critters.

[SerpentineDream]

In the meantime, if you bought it off of Kingsnake.com, go see if there is a forum you can use to voice your displeasure with the seller. I haven't used them yet, but I had planned to, so I guess that's something I will have to look into as well.

You can also post on Fauna Classifieds under the BOI (Board of Inquiry) which is where people go to look up a seller's reputation. You can search it to see if others have also had trouble with this person.

[whistlepig]

Thanks everybody for your sage advice. If I do try to buy a snake again, I'll definitely be better prepared.

I'm not sure how far to go with this. Although I fully intended to ask if the snake would be guaranteed to be shipped alive, I also tend to be a little absentminded and that question got lost amongst the other questions I asked him before purchasing. I would definitely not have purchased had I asked and been told there was no guarantee.

For the most part the thing that bothers me the most is that I don't have a snake that I was getting pretty excited about having. I'm annoyed by the fact that I will probably not see that money again, but I don't think the seller shipped me a dead snake on purpose and the fact that I didn't ask about a guarantee is kinda my cost of being stupid. To be sure, I think when you buy a snake and pay for it, you should get it alive or be refunded, but I suppose not everyone agrees and I should have asked.

However, to make sure there's not something blatantly wrong with the shipping process I'm posting the pictures of the box, etc... below. I'll let you guys tell me if something looks off.

The box:
http://i.imgur.com/uztjscS.jpg

Inside the box:
http://i.imgur.com/RVC7Kc8.jpg

The snake and the container it came in (dang it's pretty, I wish it had survived):
http://i.imgur.com/P9hpKi0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Etx5QOu.jpg

[TRD]

Maybe it got too cold up in the air... no added heating, maybe no special shipping requirements and/or the requirements of the sender not honored by the carrier. Bit hard to lay blame. Sorry for the loss, beautiful snake. RIP :'(

[SerpentineDream]

It's more likely IMO that it perished from overheating rather than cold. The cargo hold of the plane does indeed get extremely cold but the duration of the flight is short... not long enough for the cold to completely penetrate adequate insulation. FedEx planes in the US bounce from hub to hub where boxes are sorted and transferred rather than making long flights from Point A to Point B.

However the box is subjected to environmental conditions on the ground for a much longer time. So if it's hot at the receiving facility, hot on the truck(s), hot at the warehouse, etc. the snake could easily overheat if it did not have a cold pack to keep it cool. In the summer I would suspect that this was the likely cause.

Poor little worm. :(

[EL Ziggy]

Most, if not all, respectable breeders offer a live arrival guarantee if you were home to receive the animal on the initial delivery attempt and if you report the DOA right away. If this breeder doesn't then that's very poor customer service. I'd lodge a complaint wherever I could and advise others not to make the same mistake. Sorry you lost your snake :( . I love speckled kings.

[Scubadiver59]

Compared to what I've received my snakes in, it's a piss poor styrofoam inner container. It should've been a one piece bottom with a top that fits snugly in place. The white container could've been a bit smaller for such a small snake, to make it feel more secure.

Also, that snake looks a little on the emaciated side, though it could be due to the decay process...from what I see, it looks sickly.

[toddnbecka]

I'll be shipping out a pair of yearling Dominicans next week, and just finished reading the requirements for packaging, insurance, etc. through FedEx Ship Your Reptiles. You have to use one of their boxes in order for the insurance claim to be honored, and even then it only applies to the delivery time.
I also noticed that they require four holes (pencil works) to be punched through the box, presumably for ventilation.
I'm not seeing any holes in that box?

[whistlepig]

Hm. You guys make some good points, enough that I'll try and pursue this a little more. I still don't hold out much hope of getting any money back (I've filed a FedEx claim, but I'm pretty sure the snake was shipped normally and not with this reptile specific shipping you guys mention), at least I can let other potential customers know that they will get nothing if their snake shows up DOA. Thanks again.

[Aaron_S]

Ok so this does happen in shipping. I've received snakes dead in shipping before.

1. Was there a heat pack in the box?
2. Where are you shipping from and where was it shipping from? What temps is it where you are?
3. Usually what happens is a credit is applied for the cost of the animal. So the breeder should replace it but you'd either have to agree to split shipping or you'd cover shipping again. Reason being is the cost of shipping went to the shipper and not the breeder so it's not like they made any money off that.
4. The packing looks okay-ish. Was there newspaper packing around the delicup in the box?

[whistlepig]

In answer to the questions posed:

1. There was no heat pack in the box.
2. Shipping from California to Illinois. It arrived ~ 11:50 am and temps were probably in the upper 70's or low 80's at the time.
3. The breeder did say he would have replaced it, but mine was the last one he had (which I knew before this happened) and so no replacement. If he had another to replace, he said I would have to pay for shipping as you stated. However, I probably would have just let it go at that point, because I feel like I would have to be crazy to pay for shipping again (which was more than the cost of the snake) given my only experience with this breeder was receiving a dead animal. If I can recover the costs from FedEx for the first shipping my attitude on this may change, but don't know that for sure.
4. There was no newspaper packing around the delicup, but there was a Styrofoam lid.

If nothing else, I think I'm done trying to buy a second snake this way. If I ever do get another, it will be in person where I can take it home immediately.

[EL Ziggy]

Sorry you had a bad experience WP but don't let it totally discourage you from buying online. DOAs are a pretty rare occurrence but it does happen. I've had 9 snakes shipped to me all of which arrived safe and sound. I've never found the snakes I wanted in a pet store or at an expo so I've had to reach out to breeders around the country. Best wishes with your next critter.

[Aaron_S]

In answer to the questions posed:

1. There was no heat pack in the box.
2. Shipping from California to Illinois. It arrived ~ 11:50 am and temps were probably in the upper 70's or low 80's at the time.
3. The breeder did say he would have replaced it, but mine was the last one he had (which I knew before this happened) and so no replacement. If he had another to replace, he said I would have to pay for shipping as you stated. However, I probably would have just let it go at that point, because I feel like I would have to be crazy to pay for shipping again (which was more than the cost of the snake) given my only experience with this breeder was receiving a dead animal. If I can recover the costs from FedEx for the first shipping my attitude on this may change, but don't know that for sure.
4. There was no newspaper packing around the delicup, but there was a Styrofoam lid.

If nothing else, I think I'm done trying to buy a second snake this way. If I ever do get another, it will be in person where I can take it home immediately.

Thanks for the quick answers.

So how snug was the deli cup in the box? I and others pack newspaper around the animal so it doesn't shift too much and as an insulator.

The temps seem fine from where it took off and where it landed however the temps in the air are significantly lower than they are on the ground so there's a chance it froze in the air.

In this case, the breeder should refund the price of the snake because he doesn't have another one and it's unlikely you'll care enough to wait for another one to be produced.

I know the feeling you're going through. I bought a pair of snakes for $200 a few months ago. The male died in transit. I spent $100 on shipping already. I then had to replace the male but the breeder didn't have any replacements so we had to source a male from another breeder, cost me an additional $20 on top of the original price plus another shipment of $100. A pair of snakes cost me $420. More than double the original cost.

It sucks but it happens. I recommend not letting it fully discourage you from buying from around the Country.

[jjhill001]

What did they use as filler in the box? Just paper?

[whistlepig]

Aaron and Jjhill, I checked again and the deli cup fit securely in the box. no filler, just air. I think you're right, she probably froze to death. I'll try and not get discouraged, but when you're wary to begin with and you get burned your first try, it tends to reinforce the wariness. Anyway, if I do try again, would you say that California is too far away (ie too long a plane ride) and I should avoid that distance? Get assurances that some source of heat and insulation will be used? Any other tips besides making sure to get a live delivery guarantee?

[jjhill001]

Compared to what I've received my snakes in, it's a piss poor styrofoam inner container. It should've been a one piece bottom with a top that fits snugly in place. The white container could've been a bit smaller for such a small snake, to make it feel more secure.

Also, that snake looks a little on the emaciated side, though it could be due to the decay process...from what I see, it looks sickly.

Well first off the package needs to be labeled that it has live animals in it. So first mistake.

2nd when shipping you need to have SOMETHING that absorbs impact, whether that is balled up newspaper, packing peanuts, etc so that when the cup gets jostled around the snake isn't banging into the walls of the box.

Without it being labelled with live animals it could have been dropped, kicked whatever. The snake could have overheated or froze but in my experience and I've had snakes delivered from Texas to Ohio in both cold and warm temps and I've never had something like this happened. 70s 80s is about perfect temps for shipping so I honestly can't see why it would have just died. 24 hours is not that long and even if it cooled off a bit it shouldn't have killed it. Unless it sat in the back of a box truck in Cali for hours and hours it should have been fine.

Personally I'd consider putting up a BOI report but that's just with the knowledge I have of your situation. Idk who it is or how much experience they have or what reputation but that's crap packaging either way.

[jjhill001]

Also California requires a species label that includes scientific name and common name on it somewhere either in or on the package (can't remember) as well.

[Aaron_S]

Aaron and Jjhill, I checked again and the deli cup fit securely in the box. no filler, just air. I think you're right, she probably froze to death. I'll try and not get discouraged, but when you're wary to begin with and you get burned your first try, it tends to reinforce the wariness. Anyway, if I do try again, would you say that California is too far away (ie too long a plane ride) and I should avoid that distance? Get assurances that some source of heat and insulation will be used? Any other tips besides making sure to get a live delivery guarantee?

Use a more reputable shipper or breeder is the other thing. Someone who uses Ship Your Reptile or Reptile Express in the States would be ideal. As those carriers will not allow someone to use them if they don't do it properly.

It's possible the snake died of stressed from the travelling but that is a rarity. Distance isn't an issue. Reptiles fly around the world all the time for days and they do fine. I personally think it was the slightly bad package job coupled with probably a cold plane ride.

Well first off the package needs to be labeled that it has live animals in it. So first mistake.

2nd when shipping you need to have SOMETHING that absorbs impact, whether that is balled up newspaper, packing peanuts, etc so that when the cup gets jostled around the snake isn't banging into the walls of the box.

Without it being labelled with live animals it could have been dropped, kicked whatever. The snake could have overheated or froze but in my experience and I've had snakes delivered from Texas to Ohio in both cold and warm temps and I've never had something like this happened. 70s 80s is about perfect temps for shipping so I honestly can't see why it would have just died. 24 hours is not that long and even if it cooled off a bit it shouldn't have killed it. Unless it sat in the back of a box truck in Cali for hours and hours it should have been fine.

Personally I'd consider putting up a BOI report but that's just with the knowledge I have of your situation. Idk who it is or how much experience they have or what reputation but that's crap packaging either way.

Reason it could have become too cold or hot is the belly of the plane where the cargo goes wasn't kept at the same temp as the cabin. This usually leaves a good 20 degree difference so it's sitting around the high 50's.

Also, it's possible because if it was poorly labelled and dropped it off that it sat on the tarmac for hours before being loaded. However that would be due to a heat death and the animal would probably stink more.

[daisymaisy]

Aw, what a bummer. I think a DOA is fairly unusual, but it can happen. It doesn't sound like the seller is being very helpful - not someone I would order from, that's for sure. There are better ones out there though, and there are always expos and reptile shows that are good places to pick up new snakes.

[Albert Clark]

Man, sorry for your loss. There are specific guidelines for shipping reptiles as we all know and it appears at least a couple of them were not adhered to by the breeder. No air holes on the four sides of the shipping box is telling. No padding in the internal area of the box is definitely a violation of shipping practices. Air holes are supposed to go directly through the box and styrofoam into the internal area. Tha lack of padding shows that the animal suffered multiple and continued instability, probably leading to sustained traumatic injuries including head injury. Coupled with a enviornment that was already low in adequate circulating oxygen makes for a recipe of the final outcome. SAD for real that the breeder even thinks he's not responsible. Sounds like a case for the Fauna Classifieds BOI.

[whistlepig]

There are better ones out there though, and there are always expos and reptile shows that are good places to pick up new snakes.

Yeah, I'm getting over my disappointment and back to looking.

No air holes on the four sides of the shipping box is telling. No padding in the internal area of the box is definitely a violation of shipping practices. Air holes are supposed to go directly through the box and styrofoam into the internal area. Tha lack of padding shows that the animal suffered multiple and continued instability, probably leading to sustained traumatic injuries including head injury.

The lack of air holes was what I initially thought brought about her demise, in fact the package was pretty much air tight (with tape along all of the seams). But then I thought I saw somewhere on there that they don't use that much air in 24 hrs. As far as the padding, though there wasn't any, the box was of a size that the deli cup fit in without any movement possible, so I don't think that there was much jostling.

SAD for real that the breeder even thinks he's not responsible. Sounds like a case for the Fauna Classifieds BOI.

Yeah, I have a review all written up for the BOI, but it was my wife who actually bought and talked to the breeder (it was supposed to be a birthday gift for me) and she wants me to hold off to see if we get money back from FedEx and if not, to allow the breeder one more chance to offer a refund. But if he doesn't I'll post it and I know he looks there because he's selling snakes on that site and has even used the BOI to complain about another breeder who, ironically, did give him a refund on a snake, but didn't do it as fast as he would have liked.

[SerpentineDream]

FedEx will typically issue refunds only to the shipper. So even if you paid for the shipping, the seller paid FedEx. He would need to file the claim and then refund you once they paid him.