Thawing frozen rat

[Wharf Rat]

I know this topic has been discussed, just wanted to hash it out a little...

I switched to f/t a few years ago with my ball python. I thaw them in hot tap water for about an hour, check them by feel to make sure they're warm and thawed, dry with paper towel and feed the snake (now snakes).

So, on a Facebook ball python page I just joined someone asked how people choose to thaw. I stated the above and was immediately "corrected" by an admin stating that that method does not meet FDA guidelines for thawing meat and that I was being careless with my snakes. The 24 hour refrigerator method, or running under cold water is the only legitimate method. Ok...opinions...whatever. I stated that it was a common practice in the reptile community, and that I've never experienced a problem with my snakes. I was scolded and jumped on by several other members for being reckless and basically told I was offering dangerous advise...also I was banned from the group! LoL fine... Please note, I was not rude or anything, just supporting my opinion. This all happened over a period of like 10 minutes.

Ok... So my question... If you thaw in the fridge you have to warm up the rat before feeding right? So how much more bacteria is gonna grow in the hot water thaw method verses the refrigerate and warm up method? This is a sincere question...not trying to start a hostile debate lol (although it did irritate me that they were so closed minded and banned me over a legitimate discussion on their page).

Please... I'm very interested in opinions and info on this subject. Thanks.

[Andy_G]

You don't have to worry about a hostile debate on this subject here.

I did what you do for years until there were too many food items to thaw in that way and it wasn't convenient anymore. I use the refrigerator method and I still use hot water to heat them up. Never encountered any problem. They are right in that hot water shouldn't be used to thaw human food at room temp...but the reasoning behind that is the fact that those food items are in the "danger zone" where harmful bacteria will flourish in a short time and can harm someone even after cooking...these are snakes...animals which will eat carrion in the wild. Some information given on facebook is questionable, this is one of those cases.

The one and only thing I would advise against that a lot of people do...thawing out big whole rodents at room temp...they can still have cold spots in the middle while seemingly thawed on the outside and you can introduce a lot of unnecessary and unfavourable bacteria by doing this...but even this technique shouldn't cause problems in healthy animals. In unhealthy animals this room temp thawing method has been thought to contribute to the development of septicemia caused by an overload of bacteria...but that's once again only in animals who are otherwise compromised to begin with because once again snakes can and do eat rotting dead animals in the wild...which would probably not meet FDA guidelines.

About a month ago I made the mistake of correcting someone that was telling people that misting and increasing humidity causes R.I.'s...got jumped on very quickly by a bunch of keyboard warriors who only have a snake or two and think they know everything...after all...it never rains in Africa and they live in deli cups/tubs on paper towel for their whole life in the wild, right? ;)

[EL Ziggy]

I start thawing my frozen feeders in cold water first and then warm water before super heating them with a hair dryer and serving them to the snakes. It's worked out pretty well for the last 5 years and the snakes seem to be healthy. I'm always open to different and better ways of doing things if I can be shown the benefits.

[Scubadiver59]

When using hot water w/o thawing I find that the skin pigmentation changes and it looks like the outside of the f/t is being cooked as the inside is still thawing. This also happened, at least to me, when using hot water immediately with the "refrig" thawed f/t...not as bad as with the frozen feeders, but still it looks like they get pale and get cooked.

Note: to ensure that the rats are warmed through, I make sure that the water temperature stays at 100degF for 10min...if the temperature drops, then they're not warmed up enough inside yet.

So now, I remove the fridge-thawed feeders, leave them out for about an hour or more on the counter to get them to 75degF, and then I warm them in stages to 100degF before feeding. Sure, it takes an hour for the large rats, but the smaller feeders don't look like they're cooking and they stay a rosy pink outside.

I also mentioned in another thread that I had one of my Fuzzy Rats bloat up overnight in the cage...it looked like a cow that had died and had been sitting in the hot Texas sun. I think the rat was bad from the beginning as I had never had that happen before; and the Hogg Island I tried feeding it to, originally took it, dragging it back in the hot hide, but then spit it back out apparently and deposited it outside the hot hide. I've never had any of my rats blow up like a balloon before so I will be watching the rest of my Fuzzy Rats to see if the whole lot is bad.

I know this topic has been discussed, just wanted to hash it out a little...

I switched to f/t a few years ago with my ball python. I thaw them in hot tap water for about an hour, check them by feel to make sure they're warm and thawed, dry with paper towel and feed the snake (now snakes).

So, on a Facebook ball python page I just joined someone asked how people choose to thaw. I stated the above and was immediately "corrected" by an admin stating that that method does not meet FDA guidelines for thawing meat and that I was being careless with my snakes. The 24 hour refrigerator method, or running under cold water is the only legitimate method. Ok...opinions...whatever. I stated that it was a common practice in the reptile community, and that I've never experienced a problem with my snakes. I was scolded and jumped on by several other members for being reckless and basically told I was offering dangerous advise...also I was banned from the group! LoL fine... Please note, I was not rude or anything, just supporting my opinion. This all happened over a period of like 10 minutes.

Ok... So my question... If you thaw in the fridge you have to warm up the rat before feeding right? So how much more bacteria is gonna grow in the hot water thaw method verses the refrigerate and warm up method? This is a sincere question...not trying to start a hostile debate lol (although it did irritate me that they were so closed minded and banned me over a legitimate discussion on their page).

Please... I'm very interested in opinions and info on this subject. Thanks.

[dannybgoode]

Depends what mood I'm in. We have an Aga in our new kitchen so it's always very warm so defrosting doesn't take too long and I'm not worried about cold spots.

If I'm in more of a hurry I'll use hot water. Not bothered about the odd bit of bacteria - snakes eat some pretty rancid prey in the wild and exposure to a bit of bacteria actually strengthens their immune system.

I think people forget that keeping in a completely sterile environment actually lowers their immune system making them more prone to illness.

[REM955]

Personally, I just take the baggie the single rat comes in and put it in another ziploc. Then let it sit in hot water for an hour or so. After that, replace the water and let sit 15 minutes.
I have not had a problem, but then again I have a Woma. =/

[Magdalen]

I can't really claim to know which thawing method is best since I haven't done a lot of research. However, I put my snake's food item in the refrigerator the day before and then the next night take it out to sit at room temp for a hour or so, then pop it in warm/hot water right before I feed. No problems so far. I use that method because I found a zoo blog that mentioned that's how they thaw their mice/rats.

Ugh FB groups can be the worst. You have an opinion, other than the group rules (even if you have facts to back it), you get jumped on.

[dannybgoode]

Personally, I just take the baggie the single rat comes in and put it in another ziploc. Then let it sit in hot water for an hour or so. After that, replace the water and let sit 15 minutes.
I have not had a problem, but then again I have a Woma. =/

Yes, I can imagine that's hardly a challenge to feed ;)

[Wharf Rat]

Thanks for the responses people, I appreciate it

[dave himself]

I just leave mine out to defrost, when I know there are no cold spots I put them on top of the vivs to heat them then feed. Lots of people do it different ways, doesn't anyone is wrong or right :). And as for Farcebook it's things like this that convince me I did the right thing deactivating my account years ago;)

[Wharf Rat]

...
Ugh FB groups can be the worst. You have an opinion, other than the group rules (even if you have facts to back it), you get jumped on.

Totally agree based on what just happened to me.

As the the rat thawing issue...thanks for the advise/tips... I guess my real question is regarding bacteria growth. Does thawing in the fridge really prevent bacterial growth if you have to leave them out or soak in warm water after thawing to get the temp up?

[dannybgoode]

Totally agree based on what just happened to me.

As the the rat thawing issue...thanks for the advise/tips... I guess my real question is regarding bacteria growth. Does thawing in the fridge really prevent bacterial growth if you have to leave them out or soak in warm water after thawing to get the temp up?

I think just as pertenantly does it matter? As I mentioned above the bacterial load would have to be very substantial indeed to have any ill effect on a snake.

[Andy_G]

As the the rat thawing issue...thanks for the advise/tips... I guess my real question is regarding bacteria growth. Does thawing in the fridge really prevent bacterial growth if you have to leave them out or soak in warm water after thawing to get the temp up?

Pretty much what Danny said...Yes the fridge most certainly does prevent/greatly slow the growth of bacteria, and the main factor in regards to food safety/preparation for humans is the length of time they are exposed to dangerous temperatures in which these bacterias flourish, but as previously mentioned, unless the snake is immunosupressed or dealing with a compounding health issue, it really won't make much of a difference. Do what works for you and disregard things that simply don't make sense that come from people who don't know any better on facebook. ;)

[TRD]

Same group likely keeps their snakes in a 100% sterile environment because god forbid a snake comes in contact with actual soil or plants... it has devastating results.

Those BP groups are real volatile and very close minded. Shouldn't join them to get some sound advise, you won't get, and as you experienced - if you think otherwise there is no room for debate or discussion. It's either their way or the banhammer.

FDA approved method of thawing meat, my gosh. When in a rush I also drop chicken meat into hot water to thaw it in a hurry. There are no bacteria that can multiply so fast in the timespan of < 60 minutes that it would actually pose an issue for a snake. Besides the mouse itself takes approx 24 hours to start breaking down in the belly of the snake. 60 Minutes is not going to make a damn difference there.

I would be much more worried about the actual keeping/killing/freezing method of the mice at the rodent breeder than thawing them in the fridge, room temp, cold, or hot water.

And snake have no issue whatsoever in the wild eating roadkill or decomposing animals either.

[Wharf Rat]

LoL thanks everyone. :)

[jjhill001]

I know this topic has been discussed, just wanted to hash it out a little...

I switched to f/t a few years ago with my ball python. I thaw them in hot tap water for about an hour, check them by feel to make sure they're warm and thawed, dry with paper towel and feed the snake (now snakes).

So, on a Facebook ball python page I just joined someone asked how people choose to thaw. I stated the above and was immediately "corrected" by an admin stating that that method does not meet FDA guidelines for thawing meat and that I was being careless with my snakes. The 24 hour refrigerator method, or running under cold water is the only legitimate method. Ok...opinions...whatever. I stated that it was a common practice in the reptile community, and that I've never experienced a problem with my snakes. I was scolded and jumped on by several other members for being reckless and basically told I was offering dangerous advise...also I was banned from the group! LoL fine... Please note, I was not rude or anything, just supporting my opinion. This all happened over a period of like 10 minutes.

Ok... So my question... If you thaw in the fridge you have to warm up the rat before feeding right? So how much more bacteria is gonna grow in the hot water thaw method verses the refrigerate and warm up method? This is a sincere question...not trying to start a hostile debate lol (although it did irritate me that they were so closed minded and banned me over a legitimate discussion on their page).

Please... I'm very interested in opinions and info on this subject. Thanks.

FDA guidelines also say you need an expiration date on salt and that the way Europeans eat cheese and have chicken eggs is going to kill them so I'd just point that bit out.

I had no idea there was such a debate to be entirely honest.

I will say that some people have obnoxiously hot tap water and that could potentially cook the mouse which probably isn't a smart idea but warm at about 100-110 degrees isn't likely to even begin cooking the mouse. From a quick google 113 degrees F is the lowest temperature that I could find that would begin cooking anything.

On feeding day I toss a couple mice in a sandwich bag and put them in warm water in a coffee cup which holds the warmth a little longer for about 45 minutes then one more warming to heat them back up a bit.

If I was feeding something as large as a rat I'd probably leave it in a bag on the counter for at least a few hours to let it thaw out a bit more before floating it in water. If it was a medium or larger one I'd probably do the full 24 hours.

Overall unless your tap gets obnoxiously hot like some people's do I'd not worry too much about it if your snakes are eating and doing alright.

[Aaron_S]

I don't have enough fridge space so I do the room temp and use hot water some hours later to heat them before feeding.

I usually take mine out in the morning and feed 12+ hours later.

[TRD]

I don't have enough fridge space so I do the room temp and use hot water some hours later to heat them before feeding.

I usually take mine out in the morning and feed 12+ hours later.

Actually it got me wondering a bit..

Most bacteria seem to replicate every 30 minutes or so at room temperature.

If one would say that on a dead mouse there are 100 'malicious' bacteria present, then in 12 hours this number would be 409,600 bacteria.

Leaving a mouse 'overnight' which has been thawed in this method (let us assume here the total time is 24 hours) would result in 1,677,721,600 bacteria.

I never had a snake turn ill or otherwise leaving a mouse overnight. Sometimes have forgotten the mouse and it was eaten the following evening. surely snek would of died.

TLDR: applying standards to reptiles that are build for humans (like FDA) is fundamentally flawed

[Andy_G]

TLDR: applying standards to reptiles that are build for humans (like FDA) is fundamentally flawed

EXACTLY right.

[dannybgoode]

Actually it got me wondering a bit..

Most bacteria seem to replicate every 30 minutes or so at room temperature.

If one would say that on a dead mouse there are 100 'malicious' bacteria present, then in 12 hours this number would be 409,600 bacteria.

Leaving a mouse 'overnight' which has been thawed in this method (let us assume here the total time is 24 hours) would result in 1,677,721,600 bacteria.

I never had a snake turn ill or otherwise leaving a mouse overnight. Sometimes have forgotten the mouse and it was eaten the following evening. surely snek would of died.

TLDR: applying standards to reptiles that are build for humans (like FDA) is fundamentally flawed

And I'll always offer any uneaten items that have been left overnight to one of my waste disposal snakes :)

[Aaron_S]

Actually it got me wondering a bit..

Most bacteria seem to replicate every 30 minutes or so at room temperature.

If one would say that on a dead mouse there are 100 'malicious' bacteria present, then in 12 hours this number would be 409,600 bacteria.

Leaving a mouse 'overnight' which has been thawed in this method (let us assume here the total time is 24 hours) would result in 1,677,721,600 bacteria.

I never had a snake turn ill or otherwise leaving a mouse overnight. Sometimes have forgotten the mouse and it was eaten the following evening. surely snek would of died.

TLDR: applying standards to reptiles that are build for humans (like FDA) is fundamentally flawed

Valid point. I'd like to see a study done on which of these "harmful" bacterias can be harmful to a health snake.

And I'll always offer any uneaten items that have been left overnight to one of my waste disposal snakes :)

I do the same.

[jjhill001]

Valid point. I'd like to see a study done on which of these "harmful" bacterias can be harmful to a health snake.



I do the same.

People literally dry age steaks for up to a month and a half letting bacteria grow on purpose and then eat them rare/medium rare. I highly doubt the majority food left out 24 hours would be particularly dangerous as long as you cook it.

And snakes which are known to eat decaying animals in the wild I imagine would have even less adverse effects

[Herpin' Man]

Speaking for myself, I would not put too much stock on advice from people on facebook. Banned from the group? You're probably better off without them.
I thaw my rodents under a heat lamp. No stinking up the kitchen, no feeding wet prey to the snakes. The only thing I need to be careful of is not overheating them.
I have done this without issue for decades.

[Wharf Rat]

Thanks again everyone :)

The one thing I did change up a bit, and not from facebook advise lol, I thaw in not quite so hot water now and I keep the rats in a baggie so they aren't wet after since I just switched substrate from paper towels to coco bark to help with a humidity issue. Just thawed them for an hour and a half instead of an hour. Snakes ate like pigs, as always ;)

[jjhill001]

Thanks again everyone :)

The one thing I did change up a bit, and not from facebook advise lol, I thaw in not quite so hot water now and I keep the rats in a baggie so they aren't wet after since I just switched substrate from paper towels to coco bark to help with a humidity issue. Just thawed them for an hour and a half instead of an hour. Snakes ate like pigs, as always ;)

They really kicked you out of the group for having a different opinion?

[lonewolf1253]

I've always used the zip lock bag method. I just seal them in a zip lock sandwich bag and place them in fairly hot water. Then I just check it once in a while till it's the temp I want. I use a temperature gun. Of course, for very large prey you might need a bigger bag. Anything airtight would do. From all the responses you've gotten, I do believe you have plenty of choices on how to thaw your rats. Happy feeding!

[Scubadiver59]

I just wrap them in cling wrap and put them in my front pocket for an hour or so... :eek:

Just remove it before you go out though...it might elicit one of those "Is that a rat in your pocket...or are you just happy to see me?" comments!

[eminart]

Speaking for myself, I would not put too much stock on advice from people on facebook.

This is 100% true, especially if it's just a general snake page, or something dedicated to the more commonly kept snakes. There are some pages dedicated to more experienced keepers who aren't just regurgitating the latest nonsensical fad, but those are usually closed groups.

I'm with most everyone else. I thaw in warm/hot water in ziplock bags. I use the bags just because of the types of substrate I use. It keeps the rodent drier so they don't pick up a pound of substrate on their fur.

[Wharf Rat]

They really kicked you out of the group for having a different opinion?

Yep LoL and all in just a few minutes of discussion. I basically stated that I've been thawing with hot water for a few years and never had a problem. A group of them jumped all over me accusing me of trying to advise people to be irresponsible with their snakes, I tried to respond and the post wouldn't work...I realized I was blocked from the group. LoL My wife was also a member of the group and she saw that they actually continued to attack me even after I was removed LoL it shouldn't bother me, but it does... I will get over it LoL the positive and open minded attitude here helps a lot.

I mean, I love my snakes and all my pets...I would never do anything to intentionally harm them. And they made me out like some kind of monster and then wouldn't allow me to defend myself. Oh well.

[Wharf Rat]

This is 100% true, especially if it's just a general snake page, or something dedicated to the more commonly kept snakes. There are some pages dedicated to more experienced keepers who aren't just regurgitating the latest nonsensical fad, but those are usually closed group.

It was a closed ball python group. In their defense lol they did state that their main focus was to teach new ball python owners the correct way to do things and not confuse them with advanced ideas or things outside of the norm. But from what I see, thawing in warm water IS the norm.

[Aaron_S]

It was a closed ball python group. In their defense lol they did state that their main focus was to teach new ball python owners the correct way to do things and not confuse them with advanced ideas or things outside of the norm. But from what I see, thawing in warm water IS the norm.

Lol it is the norm. Funny thing is they are confusing new keepers by giving their norm. Not the hobby's.


And **** all of you who can put a few feeders in ziplocks to thaw. I'd go through boxes of them a week if I did that. I just toss them in a dedicated rat tub and make rat soup.

[eminart]

And **** all of you who can put a few feeders in ziplocks to thaw. I'd go through boxes of them a week if I did that. I just toss them in a dedicated rat tub and make rat soup.

LOL. I actually only have 6 snakes in my house right now and 4 of them belong to my 12 year old daughter. That said, I reuse the same bags a lot.

[Wharf Rat]

Lol it is the norm. Funny thing is they are confusing new keepers by giving their norm. Not the hobby.

Haha, exactly! Everywhere they look they will see and hear the way the masses do it, which goes against what they are being taught... its like a snake cult in the making :rolleyes:

[TRD]

Imagine what would of happened if you stated you've been using the microwave set to 25 seconds for many years without issues besides the occasional "oops"

https://i2.wp.com/www.bogglingfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/850.jpg

[Aaron_S]

Imagine what would of happened if you stated you've been using the microwave set to 25 seconds for many years without issues besides the occasional "oops"

https://i2.wp.com/www.bogglingfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/850.jpg

Ha! No thanks on the microwave. Too risky for me but glad it's working for you.

[Trouser Snake]

EXACTLY right.

I agree, that's just common sense. Mods of Facebook groups tend to think of themselves as some sort of higher beings, which is why I prefer proper forums where everyone is allowed an opinion without the pitchforks coming out. I like this forum. CBRF UK wasn't too bad when that was about but had it's problems. I have to say it seems more civilised on ssSnakeSs.com!!

[jjhill001]

I agree, that's just common sense. Mods of Facebook groups tend to think of themselves as some sort of higher beings, which is why I prefer proper forums where everyone is allowed an opinion without the pitchforks coming out. I like this forum. CBRF UK wasn't too bad when that was about but had it's problems. I have to say it seems more civilised on ssSnakeSs.com!!

I was in a fb community and out of it in less than 4 days before I left because of the attitudes.

[Trouser Snake]

Jjhill. I was on a group called "Roast my selfie" Where people put their pics up and you roast them no holds barred, I put mine up and took everything thrown at me... Roasted someone elses pic and was reported and got a 30 day ban!! That's the logic of people on there. Always a Google or Wikipedia snake expert who has little actual experience, on snake groups too, trying to flame guys who have been in the hobby longer. I'm just happy to learn and if there is something I have read or heard I would suggest it but never force my opinion on anyone or be patronising to more experienced people, it's like Facebook group mods and members enjoy insulting people's intelligence and attempt to gang up on and bully people, the little keyboard assassin's lol

[TRD]

Yea but you roasted one of the admins ;)

chop chop, off you go with your 30-day return ticket.

There are altogether just a few groups on FB related to husbandry that I like and remain civil and controlled at all (well, most) times... Until someone posts a picture of their BP racks or leopard gecko's on newpaper because "impaction", that is with a "Thank you for the add, here are my tubs" kinda post.