Gopher Snakes, Russian Ratsnakes, Subocs?

[Trouser Snake]

Been researching for two years plus, while convincing the girlfriend that snakes are not vicious creatures, she has now seen that first hand. Thing is I'm just not fascinated with corns but I do want a placid enough snake to accustom my kids to the reality that snakes are not viscous, and then as they meet more defensive ones I can teach them that it's a defensive or food oriented behaviour rather than aggression. I know some kings in general, Elaphe Schrenki, and Subocularis are generally placid and easy to keep too, I'm not interested in royals, colubrids only, but I read, of the pituophis genus, Gophers are pretty placid and easy to keep... Of those mentioned, what, in general, would be best, no corns though and no pythons just the others mentioned, experiences etc with these snakes I'd appreciate hearing too, thankyou :)

[Scubadiver59]

Snakes can be unpredictable, they could potentially bite at any time, as I personally have found out, so you always have to keep that in mind.

I've heard the joke, "if you like pet rocks, get a Ball Python", and that may be true to some extent since a lot of them will "ball" up and hide, but others are more outgoing. My Albino King is great, but even she bolts back in her hide if I show up suddenly; and while coaxing her out for a friend the other day, she hit the glass trying to get at my fingers that I was tapping on the edge of the door. Other than that little fiasco, she's been great and I let her out all the time, and she is not head shy at all. It all depends on the snake, how often you handle, when you handle, etc.

Go to shows, hold their snakes, see if the one you want is "bitey", but always plan for the worst. And always, keep them away from your face unless you want to get accidentally tagged.

[EL Ziggy]

Pits are great snakes to keep. The care is really simple, they get quite a bit larger than most other colubrids, come in some cool morphs, and they eat like monsters. I'd highly recommend a bull or gopher snake as a first snake and even though babies can be a little feisty most of them outgrow their defensiveness pretty quickly. Best wishes with whatever you choose.

[Trouser Snake]

I gather that in general ScubaDiver but I hear Subocs and Russians are tamer than most in general too but yeah I know individuality is usually a factor, thankyou for sharing your experiences dude much appreciated, yeah kings seem to be really individualistic lol

[Trouser Snake]

El Ziggy that's what I'm hoping for, maybe start off with a Gopher and move on to Bulls and Pines as I get used to them, I might get others too but my girlfriend doesn't know that yet lol, she's ok with me having one though haha!!

[SSSSnakes]

Snakes can be unpredictable, they could potentially bite at any time, as I personally have found out, so you always have to keep that in mind.

I've heard the joke, "if you like pet rocks, get a Ball Python", and that may be true to some extent since a lot of them will "ball" up and hide, but others are more outgoing. My Albino King is great, but even she bolts back in her hide if I show up suddenly; and while coaxing her out for a friend the other day, she hit the glass trying to get at my fingers that I was tapping on the edge of the door. Other than that little fiasco, she's been great and I let her out all the time, and she is not head shy at all. It all depends on the snake, how often you handle, when you handle, etc.

Go to shows, hold their snakes, see if the one you want is "bitey", but always plan for the worst. And always, keep them away from your face unless you want to get accidentally tagged.

Keep in mind at shows, snakes are normally in a cooler environment, which makes them slower and more docile. When you get home and warm them up, that's when you'll see their real temperament and if they are bitey.

[Scubadiver59]

True, true, like some of the adventure shows that show people handling snakes...most were take out of a fridge and handled before they could react, fight, bite, or flee.

Keep in mind at shows, snakes are normally in a cooler environment, which makes them slower and more docile. When you get home and warm them up, that's when you'll see their real temperament and if they are bitey.

[SerpentineDream]

Russian rat snakes are very curious, personable animals. Mine are the closest I've ever seen to a truly friendly snake. I can put my hands in their cages and they'll willingly approach and climb right on to go for a ride. Occasionally I have even difficulty feeding them because they are more interested in climbing up the feeding tongs to see me than in eating the rodent on the end. They are semi-arboreal and need a fairly large, tall enclosure with lots of branches as they are quite active and will use every bit of space you give them. Mine are now 18 months old and about to graduate to their adult cages, which are 3 feet long, 1.5 feet deep and 3 feet high. They enjoy a large water bowl so they can go for a swim. They like to people watch and will study you as you move around the room. 2 out of my 3 were friendly and fearless from the get-go even as hatchlings. 1 was nippy and took about a year to settle down. As hatchlings their coloration is muddy brown and blah. As adults they are iridescent black with bright yellow markings and look a bit like mangrove snakes without the nasty bite. They like cool temperatures. I also recently found out that they need to be brumated for at least a couple of months in the winter whether you intend to breed them or not (I had mistakenly thought brumating them was only for breeding but this species requires it, period). Their personalities are remarkable though.

Trans-Pecos rat snakes / subocs are super mellow, gentle snakes. They're neat-looking too, with naturally buggy eyes and scales as soft to the touch as lambskin leather. They often have flashes of iridescence on their heads. I have 2 captive bred and 4 wild caught. A friend who is licensed to collect them in Texas caught those 4 in Brewster County recently and you'd never know they were WC snakes. They chill out in my hands, same as the captive bred ones. He said he picked them up off the highway at night when they were soaking up the leftover heat from the asphalt (and fixing to get flattened by passing cars). They just looked at him as if to say, "Where are we going today?" No struggling, no biting. They take at least a 40 gallon breeder size tank and do best with good ventilation and low humidity. They are one of those species that's actually better off in an aquarium with a screen top because PVC tends to hold too much humidity for them. Small water bowls are better as 1) they don't drink much and 2) big water bowls = more humidity. They also take smaller meals than you would expect for their size. If you look at a suboc and think it should be eating large mice, feed it mediums instead. If you feed them a meal that is too large they will regurgitate it. With those few quirks in mind, they are quite easy to care for.

[dannybgoode]

El Ziggy that's what I'm hoping for, maybe start off with a Gopher and move on to Bulls and Pines as I get used to them, I might get others too but my girlfriend doesn't know that yet lol, she's ok with me having one though haha!!

Personally I'd go straight for a bull - gophers are more timid and flighty. Bulls are more balls out.

That said as you've eluded to the is a world of rat snakes out there and you've picked up on some pretty neat species of them.

I'd still get a bull though - very much on my list of snakes to complete the collection with.

[Andy_G]

Personally I'd go straight for a bull - gophers are more timid and flighty. Bulls are more balls out.

That said as you've eluded to the is a world of rat snakes out there and you've picked up on some pretty neat species of them.

I'd still get a bull though - very much on my list of snakes to complete the collection with.

I've kept bulls, a couple different gophers, and a few pines as well. I'd agree that once the bulls have some size on them, they are by far the calmest (and typically the largest) of the bunch. I love em all, though! ;)

[Scubadiver59]

Calm? Sheesh...mine's hell on wheels, hisses at me every chance it gets, and is the most violent with taking a meal from me.

I've kept bulls, a couple different gophers, and a few pines as well. I'd agree that once the bulls have some size on them, they are by far the calmest (and typically the largest) of the bunch. I love em all, though! ;)

[Andy_G]

Most of the adults are all huff and puff that I've seen/had/handled. When out...they kinda just sit there or move slowly without much of a care. Until they get some size...flighty but still not bitey...sounds like you just got real lucky.

[EL Ziggy]

My bulls are sweet as pie. :)

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://imgur.com/a/mjuUn)

[jjhill001]

Always trying to make more Baird's Rat Snake fans.

Dragon Armor Scales - Album on Imgur (http://imgur.com/a/Dwj1g)

Even if you don't get one I hope you consider them for the next!

[Trouser Snake]

Always trying to make more Baird's Rat Snake fans.

Dragon Armor Scales - Album on Imgur (http://imgur.com/a/Dwj1g)

Even if you don't get one I hope you consider them for the next!

What are Baird's rat snakes like, for example, in comparison to Russians and Subocs?

[jjhill001]

What are Baird's rat snakes like, for example, in comparison to Russians and Subocs?

I've never worked with those species before. I would hedge my bets that they would be closer to the Subocs. I've got two, a male and a female. The female is very bold and will crawl out in the open. My male is a bit more shy. Both however will regularly have their head poking from a hide watching me fold laundry and such. They are very "aware" of whats going on in their enclosures and outside of it and considering they have completely different personalities yet until recently were being kept in two cages set up the exact same with the same temps and everything. I would say that just shows me that they do have individual personalities and I'd imagine you'll find that with any species.

I don't hold them as much as I should so they can be a bit ornery when I try and get them out. Not looking to bite but more of a "Hey, how dare you" and they'll rattle their tails and what not but I've only been bit 2 times. 1 when the female was young and apparently really didn't like me changing the water bowl and when I was holding my male he accidentally bumped his head on my forearm while going down around my back and scared the crap out of himself bit my arm and just went back to what he was doing.

In the wild Baird's are known to be quite docile and many can be picked up with little fuss from what I understand. I have no doubt that if I had spent even a little more time handling them when they were younger they'd both be puppy dog tame. But I don't really handle my reptiles much as a personal choice so I deal with it. If I were to get something that could deal some damage like bullsnake or larger or a monitor lizard or something I'd hold them basically every day while young.

[Sylphie]

Well, I'm a huge fan of Russians as many of you knows :P So I will always say go for Russian if you can find one!

As always temperament is a matter of personality, we had some babies that were sweet from the first moment of their lives right out of the egg, some who were totally crazy (okay, it was only one baby that we hatched out of the whole clutch and she calmed after a few months) and some who were rather shy and "flighty" as a babies but are totally laid back as adults.

What I like the most about them are:

size - they are slightly longer than corns/kings but waay more bulky, so you "feel" them more but they are still small enough to be handled without problems

hardiness - to have sick russian you need to basically leave them totally alone for a few months... If you have food, water and are cleaning their tank they will be happy, healthy and totally hassle-free

eating - I never heard of russian that was refusing food without reason (they will sometimes! stop eating during breeding season and some prefer smaller prey items so if you move them to bigger prey they might refuse)

personality - of course like I said they are all different but in general even the more nervous hatchlings calm down with age and size... they are very active and like to observe whats going on, are incredibly inquisitive and love to explore, they will often try to climb on hands while the owner is changing the water or spot cleaning their tanks. As they are hardy species that thrive well in „normal” temps they can be handled for a longer time than tropical snakes. If startled their first response is to run, not to bite, but most of the times they are more curious than scared. Out of all the ones I had, seen or heard about only one was biting... and it was that crazy hatchling of ours that calmed after three months.

And of course I also like their looks, even if they are not as flashy as some other species out there ;)

http://pleco.com.pl/elapheen/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/PICT7162.jpg

http://pleco.com.pl/elapheen/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/PICT2594.jpg

http://pleco.com.pl/elapheen/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/PICT3356.jpg

Ps. Parts of these reasons were from article I wrote so sorry if it looks weird if I start sounding more "serious" in these fragments :D

[Scubadiver59]

I need to get a Russian Rat and name it "Putin"! :rolleyes:

[Andy_G]

I need to get a Russian Rat and name it "Putin"! :rolleyes:

Just get a canadian locality bullsnake and name it "Poutine" instead. ;)

[Scubadiver59]

Gravy on FF? I'll pass...chili yes, gravy no. :no:

Just get a canadian locality bullsnake and name it "Poutine" instead. ;)

[dannybgoode]

Gravy on FF? I'll pass...chili yes, gravy no. :no:

You're clearly a Londoner and not a Yorkshireman ;)

[Andy_G]

Gravy on FF? I'll pass...chili yes, gravy no. :no:

Eww...do you put ketchup on your mashed potatoes too, you monster?

[Scubadiver59]

No, no ketchup on my mashed potatoes...but I do put it on my Mac&Cheese!

:eek:

Eww...do you put ketchup on your mashed potatoes too, you monster?

[Trouser Snake]

Well, I'm a huge fan of Russians as many of you knows :P So I will always say go for Russian if you can find one!

As always temperament is a matter of personality, we had some babies that were sweet from the first moment of their lives right out of the egg, some who were totally crazy (okay, it was only one baby that we hatched out of the whole clutch and she calmed after a few months) and some who were rather shy and "flighty" as a babies but are totally laid back as adults.

What I like the most about them are:

size - they are slightly longer than corns/kings but waay more bulky, so you "feel" them more but they are still small enough to be handled without problems

hardiness - to have sick russian you need to basically leave them totally alone for a few months... If you have food, water and are cleaning their tank they will be happy, healthy and totally hassle-free

eating - I never heard of russian that was refusing food without reason (they will sometimes! stop eating during breeding season and some prefer smaller prey items so if you move them to bigger prey they might refuse)

personality - of course like I said they are all different but in general even the more nervous hatchlings calm down with age and size... they are very active and like to observe whats going on, are incredibly inquisitive and love to explore, they will often try to climb on hands while the owner is changing the water or spot cleaning their tanks. As they are hardy species that thrive well in „normal” temps they can be handled for a longer time than tropical snakes. If startled their first response is to run, not to bite, but most of the times they are more curious than scared. Out of all the ones I had, seen or heard about only one was biting... and it was that crazy hatchling of ours that calmed after three months.

And of course I also like their looks, even if they are not as flashy as some other species out there ;)

http://pleco.com.pl/elapheen/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/PICT7162.jpg

http://pleco.com.pl/elapheen/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/PICT2594.jpg

http://pleco.com.pl/elapheen/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/PICT3356.jpg

Ps. Parts of these reasons were from article I wrote so sorry if it looks weird if I start sounding more "serious" in these fragments :D
They don't need no fancy morphs, absolutely stunning snakes... I'm guessing the females will probably hit the 6 feet mark but chunkier than most other rat snakes which is cool, I like that fact, chunky enough without being as overbearing as a large boa or python, heard so many people say they could actually be a great beginner snake being generally so hardy, the fact they seem to be so curious and tolerant of handling from what I hear does make me want to get one. I hope someone nearby has hatchlings soon.

[Trouser Snake]

Do you keep them in RUBS?

[SerpentineDream]

Russian rat snakes do not do well in RUBS past the hatchling / juvenile stage. They need a large, tall cage so that they have lots of room to climb and exercise. They are active, diurnal and semi-arboreal. They also need room for a large water bowl on the bottom so they can go for a swim when they want to as they love water. Mine have 36" W x 18" D x 36" H cages. They also like to be able to see out and keep tabs on what's going on around them.

IIRC Sylphie built an awesome enclosure for her Russian rats out of an old curio cabinet. Maybe she can post some pics of that project.

ETA: During brumation you might be able to get away with keeping them in a large RUB.

[dannybgoode]

They don't need no fancy morphs, absolutely stunning snakes... I'm guessing the females will probably hit the 6 feet mark but chunkier than most other rat snakes which is cool, I like that fact, chunky enough without being as overbearing as a large boa or python, heard so many people say they could actually be a great beginner snake being generally so hardy, the fact they seem to be so curious and tolerant of handling from what I hear does make me want to get one. I hope someone nearby has hatchlings soon.

Look up Charlotte Wilford of AC Snakes. She breeds a number of rat snake species including Russian.

[Trouser Snake]

Cheers, yeah I'm familiar with her website, I don't think she is breeding Russians ATM but has done in the past, definitely be interested if she does again though she has a great reputation as a breeder

[dannybgoode]

Cheers, yeah I'm familiar with her website, I don't think she is breeding Russians ATM but has done in the past, definitely be interested if she does again though she has a great reputation as a breeder

Yeah Charlotte is actually great breeder. Andrew Grimm may breed them also - nice chap and I've just bought a couple of snakes off him.

[SerpentineDream]

Even if she's no longer producing Russian rats herself, Charlotte may be able to point you to someone who is. Although I'm in the US rather than the UK I've found that breeders tend to know each other and can often help with finding a sought-after species. It may be a similar scenario there.

[Sylphie]

Oooh, I did not get notices about the new replies!

To answer all the questions about russians:

a) Like Serpentine said tubs are okay for young snakes but when they are adult it's better to keep them in wood/pvc/glass enclosures (or any other meterials). They are so active and love to explore that keeping one in tub would be a waste. Also, they love to climb and swim so providing them with more space, branches and larger water area is perfect. If you'd like >here (http://www.elaphe.pl/)< is my website, you can find more info about them as well as >enclosure (http://pleco.com.pl/elapheen/2015/11/14/russian-cave/)< I kept my pair for quite a long time. We need to move houses, but in the new ones we want to build a huge bio-active enclosures for everyone so I will post new thread about it. Also >here (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/enclosure-reptile-room-showcase/112671-reptile-room-created-nothing-2.html)< is a thread about our enclosures in general if you are curious.

b) As for breeders in UK/Europe, beside myself and Charlotte there is Robert Brenner and Steffen Harer in Germany who have het. albino and albino this year, Jim M. Caudwell in UK, Pure Reptiles - Shadow Passion in France and Björn Eklund in Sweden. You can find all of them on facebook, maybe they will be able to deliver them to UK :) Unfortunately we have a year off breding as I could sell you one without problems, but all the people I mentioned have hatchlings born in the last few months.