Dwarf Burmese Pythons

[Krj-2501]

I have been researching information about the Dwarf Burmese Pythons (Python bivittatus progschai).

My main question is about it's general temperament and pet potential. I have read about their reported nasty dispositions. But I have also seen comments from breeders and owners - which have stated that those "nasty dispositions" are mainly found in the wild caught foundation stock. And that the captive bred individuals, once acclimated tend to be much calmer, more similar to mainland Brums in their overall temperament. So which is one is the truth?

[Minkness]

As much as I wish there was an easy answer to this, there just isn't. While the species as a whole may be one way or another, these guys are still a bit new and have alot of captive breeding before they will take down like a normal cbb burm. That being said, it most likely boils down to the individual snake and how their owner handles them. I have been able to handle snakes deemed down right nasty by some people, several of which have come home with me to never once tag me. But other snakes deemed chill by one person, may act different with another. So for now, with such a young species in the pet trade, best bet is either to steer clear or take the chance but be prepared.

[Krj-2501]

That makes sense.

It is not really that young of species though. According to research I have found - they were first imported in to U.S. back in 2003. And been bred since then - although likely in fairly limited numbers.

At present time - I am not planning to get one, right now any way . As I am in a situation where I am planning on moving in a few months. So I still have time to research them before I getting one.

While I am concern about their general temperament. The main reason I looking into the Dwarf Burms - has to do more with their more manageable size. I like the basic look of Burmese Pythons. But I know that I am definitely ready to care for a 10+ foot, 50+ lbs, rabbit eating snake for the next 20-30 years. In addition- all the information I have found out about the Dwarf Burms (internet research and talking to breeders) suggests that they stay roughly the size of Ball Python(for males - 4-5 ft) or average size Columbian Boa (for females 5.5-7 ft.) range. Which is a size range I am confident that I can manage successfully.

[dave himself]

Mink is right in everything she says mate. Although my experience with dwarf burms is very limited , I can tell you that the further these get from the first generation wild caught the more they're calming down. But as said it's more down to the individual snake, we've had a corn snake that had more attidute than our two burms and retic put together:D. The best advice I can give you is to find a reliable breeder so you know your getting one that's as far removed from the first generation wild caught as possible

[dannybgoode]

As for a 'pet' snake. If by that you mean one that you can handle a lot etc then there are better choices.

Whilst they may certainly calm down in terms of defensiveness they are shy snakes that prefer to hide a lot so regardless of whether an individual snake is nippy or not it is unfair (imo) to subject them to lots of handing as they really do not care for it.

[Krj-2501]

I get that one should never take the temperament of an individual animal as being typical of it's species. When looking at the "typical" temperament of a species or sub-species - you need experiences with lots individual animals - to make those kind of generalizations.

At present - I have 5 ackie monitors, and 3 ball pythons. each with a different personality. While I have a few individuals(3 ackies, 2 balls) which have fairly "typical" personalities for their species. I also have a couple of individuals(2 ackies, 1 ball) which seem to have a bit of a "nasty" disposition - at least when it comes to handling.

But since the Dwarf Burmese - seem to have better personalities with captive bred individuals. Who has been breeding them the longest?

[Minkness]

While 2003 may seem like a long time ago, in relation to breeding, it's not that long. True burms have been in the domestic pet trade since the 60s (I think).

Wish I could help you with the search for a breeder, but I only ever see them pop up occasionally on faunaclassifieds.

[dave himself]

I'm Ireland :eek: The 2 dwarfs that I had the pleasure to see and handle came from the Hamm show in Germany, and I think they came from a European breeder, but I'll let you know tomorrow for definite just incase it was a breeder is from your side of the pond ;)

[Krj-2501]

While 2003 may seem like a long time ago, in relation to breeding, it's not that long. True burms have been in the domestic pet trade since the 60s (I think).


I see your point. By that comparison - Dwarf Burms are still fairly young to the trade, then.

And I bet the two-three year ban on interstate sales on all Burms - did not help increase their numbers, either. In fact it may have reduced the number people breeding them. Thankfully that foolish ban has been outlawed/over turned.

[Scubadiver59]

Shame...ostracizing the little folk because of the problem with their bigger cousins! :rolleyes:

This talk about dwarf burms--I didn't even know they existed--now has me wanting at least one dwarf retic and now one dwarf burm. Thanks a lot y'all, like I needed any more snakes!

I see your point. By that comparison - Dwarf Burms are still fairly young to the trade, then.

And I bet the two-three year ban on interstate sales on all Burms - did not help increase their numbers, either. In fact it may have reduced the number people breeding them. Thankfully that foolish ban has been outlawed/over turned.

[Krj-2501]

In either case (Dwarf burm or Dwarf Retic) - it's best to make sure you are getting pure(100%) Dwarf. Sometimes people will claim it is a Dwarf, when the actual parentage is actually only 50-75% Dwarf - the other 25-50 % is the larger mainland counterparts.

So you end up with a 1/2 or 3/4 dwarf specimen which will grow larger than a typical dwarf but still be bit smaller than the typical mainland version. This is especially a problem with the dwarf & super dwarf retics - as they have been around much longer. And often are seen in various morphs - as most of morphs of the dwarf and super dwarf retics are the result of crossing mainlands (P.r.reticulatus). The result - people end up with 14-16+ foot (so called) dwarf retics.

With half (50%) Dwarf Burms - they usually won't get more than 9-10 feet (for very large female).

[dannybgoode]

In either case (Dwarf burm or Dwarf Retic) - it's best to make sure you are getting pure(100%) Dwarf. Sometimes people will claim it is a Dwarf, when the actual parentage is actually only 50-75% Dwarf - the other 25-50 % is the larger mainland counterparts.

So you end up with a 1/2 or 3/4 dwarf specimen which will grow larger than a typical dwarf but still be bit smaller than the typical mainland version. This is especially a problem with the dwarf & super dwarf retics - as they have been around much longer. And often are seen in various morphs - as most of morphs of the dwarf and super dwarf retics are the result of crossing mainlands (P.r.reticulatus). The result - people end up with 14-16+ foot (so called) dwarf retics.

With half (50%) Dwarf Burms - they usually won't get more than 9-10 feet (for very large female).

Couldn't agree more - the tricky bit is finding true dwarf localities. True dwarf Burmese are relatively easy to find in England. True SD retics much harder. I have a true Madu and the breeder is the only one currently in England although I do know someone else now with an adult pair.

Trouble is most people buy them to cross with mainland to get the morphs etc and we are in danger of losing the true localities. Luckily there are just enough people willing to work with them to keep some available. I'll be getting a female just as soon as one is available to go with my male.

[Krj-2501]

So far - my search for Dwarf/Half Dwarf Burm breeders - here in the states is very limited - to just a few breeders.

But the number of breeder claiming to have Dwarf/Super Dwarf Retics, seems to be fairly common - all though at least 90 % of which are hybridized with the mainland/nominal form - usually between 25-75% dwarf/super dwarf. True 100% dwarf/super retics are very rare here is the states.

[dannybgoode]

They're rare here too. I was lucky to find a good breeder and mine is an F1 from WC parents. The breeder will hold me back a female or alternately there's another chap who has a pair from Germany so could get an unrelated female maybe.

http://www.dannybower.co.uk/photos/Squid1.jpg

[SSSSnakes]

Your in the states, so keep in mind, you'll have to find the snake for sale in your state. Dwarf or main land it's illegal to take burms across state lines.

[Krj-2501]

I am guessing you have not heard - On April 7. 2017 - the U.S. Court of Appeals give their ruling which agreed/sided with the USARK's claim - that the Lacey Act CAN NOT be used to ban/prohibit the interstate travel and/or selling & shipping of "injurious species" - like the Brumese Python. Which the Lacey Act was being used for to prohibit/ban the interstate travel/sell of the following species of Constrictors - Burmese Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, African Rock Pythons, and Anacondas.

The lifting of the interstate travel & sell of these large constrictors between the states(where legal) resumed on May 29, 2017.
So basically at this time - it is perfectly legal to ship Brumese Pythons across state lines, once again. The only exceptions at this time is - if the owning of Burmese Pythons is restricted or prohibited(by state or local laws) in your state. Which they are not in state I live in.

[Krj-2501]

Here is a few Articles to read on this.

Grammar Matters As 3 Judge Panel Lifts Python Ban (http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Grammar-Matters-As-3-Judge-Panel-Lifts-Ban-On-Transport-of-Reticulated-Python-and-Green-Anacondas-In-the-United-States/)

More on the Lawsuit | USARK (http://usark.org/2017-blog/more-on-the-lawsuit/)

[SSSSnakes]

I am guessing you have not heard - On April 7. 2017 - the U.S. Court of Appeals give their ruling which agreed/sided with the USARK's claim - that the Lacey Act CAN NOT be used to ban/prohibit the interstate travel and/or selling & shipping of "injurious species" - like the Brumese Python. Which the Lacey Act was being used for to prohibit/ban the interstate travel/sell of the following species of Constrictors - Burmese Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, African Rock Pythons, and Anacondas.

The lifting of the interstate travel & sell of these large constrictors between the states(where legal) resumed on May 29, 2017.
So basically at this time - it is perfectly legal to ship Brumese Pythons across state lines, once again. The only exceptions at this time is - if the owning of Burmese Pythons is restricted or prohibited(by state or local laws) in your state. Which they are not in state I live in.

Thank you. I did not hear about this. Nice to know. Unfortunately my state still bans them, NY. Always learning something new.

[Scubadiver59]

No guns and no snakes...I'd move.

Thank you. I did not hear about this. Nice to know. Unfortunately my state still bans them, NY. Always learning something new.

[SSSSnakes]

No guns and no snakes...I'd move.

I am moving to Ca.

[Krj-2501]

Yes - New York state pretty much bans - private ownership of Any venomous or injurious reptile. This includes all of the following - Elapids, Viperids, venomous colubrids, Helodermatids lizards, Larger Boid constrictors (i.e. - Brums, Retics, African rocks & Anacondas), larger monitor lizards (i.e - Nile, Asian water, Crocodile, White Throat & Black Throats).

Seeing how restrictive certain states on reptile keepers/breeders makes me glad - that I live in a state like North Carolina - which no such state wide restrictions on owning reptiles. While there are certain cities(like Charlotte) and counties in this state which may mirror New York's state laws restricting owning reptiles. In Charlotte's case - their wording is a bit different concerning large constrictors and large monitors - limits by size (over 50 lbs) not specific species. So based on the letter of Charlotte's law - while normal Burms and Retics may be prohibited - but it is still permitted to own a dwarf or half dwarf burm or retic (so long as it stays under 50 lbs -as a full grown adult).

[SSSSnakes]

Yes - New York state pretty much bans - private ownership of Any venomous or injurious reptile. This includes all of the following - Elapids, Viperids, venomous colubrids, Helodermatids lizards, Larger Boid constrictors (i.e. - Brums, Retics, African rocks & Anacondas), larger monitor lizards (i.e - Nile, Asian water, Crocodile, White Throat & Black Throats).

Seeing how restrictive certain states on reptile keepers/breeders makes me glad - that I live in a state like North Carolina - which no such state wide restrictions on owning reptiles. While there are certain cities(like Charlotte) and counties in this state which may mirror New York's state laws restricting owning reptiles. In Charlotte's case - their wording is a bit different concerning large constrictors and large monitors - limits by size (over 50 lbs) not specific species. So based on the letter of Charlotte's law - while normal Burms and Retics may be prohibited - but it is still permitted to own a dwarf or half dwarf burm or retic (so long as it stays under 50 lbs -as a full grown adult).

I performed educational snake shows for over 35 years. I had licenses for venomous, large, native and endangered / threatened snakes, so I could and did keep a lot of snakes that other people could not. There are always ways to get around laws legally. And being I had the licenses, the DEC and law enforcement would give me snakes when they confiscated them from illegal collections.

[Scubadiver59]

Nah...still no guns allowed.

I am moving to Ca.

[Krj-2501]

I performed educational snake shows for over 35 years. I had licenses for venomous, large, native and endangered / threatened snakes, so I could and did keep a lot of snakes that other people could not. There are always ways to get around laws legally. And being I had the licenses, the DEC and law enforcement would give me snakes when they confiscated them from illegal collections.

Good to know.

Still I am glad to being living in a state that does not require such licenses or permits. As I doubt these licenses are easy for the average reptile keeper to get.

[Krj-2501]

I have being looking for breeders who breed Dwarf and/or Half Dwarf Burms.

So far I have only found one breeder (Bob Clark) that still breeds pure progschai Burms.

And I have yet to find one which still breeds half dwarfs. Although I have been told they do exist. But it may be a buyer beware type situation. As a lot of the "Half Dwarf" Burms may in fact just be small/sub-adult mainland Burms which people are claiming are Half Dwarfs.

[dannybgoode]

I have being looking for breeders who breed Dwarf and/or Half Dwarf Burms.

So far I have only found one breeder (Bob Clark) that still breeds pure progschai Burms.

And I have yet to find one which still breeds half dwarfs. Although I have been told they do exist. But it may be a buyer beware type situation. As a lot of the "Half Dwarf" Burms may in fact just be small/sub-adult mainland Burms which people are claiming are Half Dwarfs.

Imo if you can get a pure blood line then go for it. If you want a dwarf you may as well get a known quantity.

That said if you can find a pure locality SD retic I'd take that over a dwarf burm - more active, less flighty and hidey. SD retics just act like they're a 20' snake - they don't know they're only a few feet - whereas dwarf burms have quite a different temperament to their larger counterpart.

I guess this is because genetically an SD retic is the same as a mainland - they are all Python reticulatus just some are smaller given food availability for their location. However bivittatus and bivittatus progschai are separate sub species.

[Krj-2501]

I guess this is because genetically an SD retic is the same as a mainland - they are all Python reticulatus just some are smaller given food availability for their location.

The reticulated Python has 3 known sub-species at this time. The full sized mainland sub-species - P. r. reticulatus. Where as the other two sup-species - P. r. jampeanus (Jampea/Kayaudi dwarf retics) & P. r. saputrai (Selayer retics). It has been suggested that the SD forms may in fact represent another unknown sub-species or even a couple of sub-species.

The reason most dwarf & SD retics get much larger in captivity than in the wild is that they are often hybridized with the mainland retics - to produce the various morphs. Notice how many morphs there are of the dwarf and SD forms. It is very VERY hard to find a pure SD retic.

That said if you can find a pure locality SD retic I'd take that over a dwarf burm - more active, less flighty and hidey. SD retics just act like they're a 20' snake - they don't know they're only a few feet - whereas dwarf burms have quite a different temperament to their larger counterpart.


To that I say - I have heard(from people who have had them) of some SD Retics which are also flighty, with a nasty disposition(hiss, strike, bite). And I have heard of captive bred pure Dwarf Brums being described as "puppy dog" tame. So as we have already discussed - it's likely more about the individual snake & owner than it is the species or sub-species as a whole.

[dannybgoode]

The reticulated Python has 3 known sub-species at this time. The full sized mainland sub-species - P. r. reticulatus. Where as the other two sup-species - P. r. jampeanus (Jampea/Kayaudi dwarf retics) & P. r. saputrai (Selayer retics). It has been suggested that the SD forms may in fact represent another unknown sub-species or even a couple of sub-species.

The reason most dwarf & SD retics get much larger in captivity than in the wild is that they are often hybridized with the mainland retics - to produce the various morphs. Notice how many morphs there are of the dwarf and SD forms. It is very VERY hard to find a pure SD retic.



To that I say - I have heard(from people who have had them) of some SD Retics which are also flighty, with a nasty disposition(hiss, strike, bite). And I have heard of captive bred pure Dwarf Brums being described as "puppy dog" tame. So as we have already discussed - it's likely more about the individual snake & owner than it is the species or sub-species as a whole.

Interesting re the sub species of reticulatus - thank you.

I'm lucky - my Madu is F1 from WC parents and I have been offered a female from the same breeder when he has one available. He won't exceed 6'. Temperament wise he's ace - not at all bitey or flighty. Very food orientated but doesn't show any propensity to strike.

I only know of two people in the UK with pure Madu lines though so yes they're not common. I will be the third :)

[Krj-2501]

I'm lucky - my Madu is F1 from WC parents and I have been offered a female from the same breeder when he has one available. He won't exceed 6'. Temperament wise he's ace - not at all bitey or flighty. Very food orientated but doesn't show any propensity to strike.

I only know of two people in the UK with pure Madu lines though so yes they're not common. I will be the third


Congrats.

I have not seen that any Madu SD retics (in the states) - so far. Here in the states - the only pure SD I have seen are the Kalatoa SD. But then Madu and Kalatoa are neighboring islands. So it is possible they are both refer to the same locality.

[dannybgoode]

Congrats.

I have not seen that any Madu SD retics (in the states) - so far. Here in the states - the only pure SD I have seen are the Kalatoa SD. But then Madu and Kalatoa are neighboring islands. So it is possible they are both refer to the same locality.

True Madu stay smaller than Kalatoa but yes undoubtedly some crossing and mis-naming takes place. To give you an idea of how small they are mine is just over 1yo and is not more than 2'.

[Krj-2501]

True Madu stay smaller than Kalatoa but yes undoubtedly some crossing and mis-naming takes place.

From what I found - pure Madu "honey Island" are virtually unknown here in the states. But they differ from the Kalatoa locality in the color of the skin pigment - Mau have a more yellowish pigment, while the Kalatoa are more reddish. But in terms of size - they are both basically the same size. Either way they are both considered to be the TRUE Super Dwarfs.

I did find out that a pair(male & female) of Dwarf Brums (pure progschai) would be at least $1,000 U.S.(not including shipping).

[dannybgoode]

From what I found - pure Madu "honey Island" are virtually unknown here in the states. But they differ from the Kalatoa locality in the color of the skin pigment - Mau have a more yellowish pigment, while the Kalatoa are more reddish. But in terms of size - they are both basically the same size. Either way they are both considered to be the TRUE Super Dwarfs.

I did find out that a pair(male & female) of Dwarf Brums (pure progschai) would be at least $1,000 U.S.(not including shipping).

Yes mine is markedly yellow. And by the time I've bought the pair they won't be far off $1200 or so. Kalatoa generally get nearer the 7-8' mark, Madu generally stay closer to 6-7' but yes not much in it by the time individual differences are taken into account.

Madu often have silver eyes as opposed to orange but not always. Not seen such an eye colour in other localities.

And yes both are definitely well into the SD category.

I'm totally smitten by mine - awesome snake - and it's such a shame that they're generally used to cross with mainlands to produce morphs and generic 'dwarfs'.

To be honest if the money was available I'd pay the $1k for a progschai pair but then I collect proven locality snakes and that sometimes has a price attaching.

[Krj-2501]

Pure locality dwarfs are actually easier to find with the "dwarf" Boa constrictors.

I'm totally smitten by mine - awesome snake - and it's such a shame that they're generally used to cross with mainlands to produce morphs and generic 'dwarfs'.


Agreed. IMO Dwarf & Super Dwarf retics would be more awesome - without the hybridization with the mainland form. To have a full grown retic which only gets to 1/3-1/2 the size of a mainland retic has enough WOW factor.

And the same is true with the pure (100%) progschai brums compared to mainland brums. Think about it an adult brum which only gets to be as large as a normal Ball python. What's not to like?

[Krj-2501]

Of course any time you cross a dwarf form/sub-species with a larger normal/mainland form - you are going to end up with a snake which is larger than a pure dwarf.

But I also think another main reason - you see several keepers with dwarfs which are larger than normal. Is that they may feeding their dwarf retics or dwarf brums much like you should a normal retic or burm. Instead of treating it as the sub-species/form which is - a dwarf.

[Tsubaki]

Madu often have silver eyes as opposed to orange but not always. Not seen such an eye colour in other localities.

Not much to add at this moment besides that there are other locaties with silver eyes, both my Selayers have Silver eyes (female has half a yellow eye) and I've seen other localities with silver eyes.

[Krj-2501]

I am not really interested in the dwarf/super dwarf retics. I have heard too many problems identifying pure Dwarfs and super dwarfs. Plus - pure dwarf retics can still get to 10-13 feet(a very big snake, imo). Super dwarfs are a bit better - IF you can find one.

I am interested in the progschai (dwarf) Brums - As I know at least one place to get them.

[Krj-2501]

Update - last week I bought a pair(1 male, 1 female) of pure Progschai from Bob Clark.

Both are small (~16"/40cm), very active, beautiful and quite snappy.

Also the both have an excellent feeding response. Ate a rat fuzzy with the first 36 hours.

The 1st photo is of the male, the 2nd is of the female.

[Scootterass]

How are the little ones (pun intended) doing? I was just looking on Bobs' site and drooling wishing I could afford one for myself.

[Tsubaki]

Great looking pair, good that they're eating well! How is their disposition at this point?

[dannybgoode]

Stunning pair. Be great to see how these progress...

[Krj-2501]

Well - they are presently quite aggressive, especially in feeding. They are eating live and f/t fuzzy rats. They are feed once per week.

Note - the fuzzy rats are about the same size as small/hopper mice (15-20 g) - and they are about 10-20% larger (in diameter)than these dwarf burms presently are

They are also tend to have a very defensive temperament right. As I have allowing the to get adjusted to their new homes. I have not attempted to handle them - yet. And - yes I have been bitten by both of them once.