Keeping snakes without a hotspot

[BillyCostume]

I was recently speaking to a local breeder( a well known and respected one at that) and he was telling me how he keeps his entire collection at a constant temperature without offering the opportunity for the animals to thermo regulate. I was curious as to what everyone thinks of this. I wonder how this affects the animals long term??. I personally feel uncomfortable not letting my snakes cool off and warm up as wanted. Btw he breeds various boas and pythons

[bigsnakegirl785]

I always offer a hot spot and thermogradient, so the snake can thermoregulate at any given time. It would be like taking away our ability to sweat or shiver, although I doubt the effects would be extreme enough to kill the snake unless the room was too hot or cold. Doesn't mean they aren't uncomfortable though.

[RAD House]

People seem to have good luck with controlling room temp over using hot spots, especially certain boa breeders.

[dannybgoode]

Thermoregulation is an instinctive behaviour and imo therefore, a snake should be given the option to practice it.

There is also a danger of digestion issues if the temperature is not high enough. My olive male regurged twice when I had a stat failure and the temp in the viv was only around 22c.

Just because someone does do it (whatever their profile) doesn't mean it should be copied.

[RAD House]

I mean to be fair our idea of thermoregulation is based off of what hobbiest have done before us. If the snake can maintain the correct temperature does it need to thermoregulate? Is this changing of temperature actually better for an animal than staying at the correct temperature all the time? I use heat pads as constant temperature isn't realistic in my home, but I may consider it if it were.

[dave himself]

Also you'd have take into consideration if you have a variety of different reptiles in our collection, all needing different temperatures. Another thing is if you have a heat failure on your system, every animal could be cooked or frozen depending on what goes wrong

[BillyCostume]

Thermoregulation is an instinctive behaviour and imo therefore, a snake should be given the option to practice it.

There is also a danger of digestion issues if the temperature is not high enough. My olive male regurged twice when I had a stat failure and the temp in the viv was only around 22c.

Just because someone does do it (whatever their profile) doesn't mean it should be copied.

His temps are kept in the 28-30c range. Temps being too cool definitely wouldn't be an issue. He isn't the only one to use this method and have a lot of success with it. Personally I wouldn't keep my animals this way, I'm just curious to see what the general opinion on this method is. Of course for a large scale breeder it's very cost effective not having to heat individual cages and I can see why it's done.

[SSSSnakes]

When I had a large collection I heated the snake room up during the day and cooled it down some what at night. I had amazon tree boas breeding every year. I had many different kind of snakes in my collection and had no issues with feeding or the snakes digesting their food. In fact when I gave some snake Hot Spots, I found them on the other side of their enclosure.

This way worked for me.

[dannybgoode]

I mean to be fair our idea of thermoregulation is based off of what hobbiest have done before us. If the snake can maintain the correct temperature does it need to thermoregulate? Is this changing of temperature actually better for an animal than staying at the correct temperature all the time? I use heat pads as constant temperature isn't realistic in my home, but I may consider it if it were.

That's the point though - there isn't one ideal temperature for a snake to be kept at. That's why they thermoregulate. In nature they move from warmer spots to cooler ones depending on what their metabolism is doing / needs to do.

Also I'm still of the opinion that running a cold blooded animal at full tilt so to speak shortens their lives. I have no proof of this for reptiles but it's certainly the case for tropical fish for example.

A snakes metabolism isn't designed to run 24/7 and therefore it would have the option of speeding up and slowing down.

[RAD House]

That's the point though - there isn't one ideal temperature for a snake to be kept at. That's why they thermoregulate. In nature they move from warmer spots to cooler ones depending on what their metabolism is doing / needs to do.

Also I'm still of the opinion that running a cold blooded animal at full tilt so to speak shortens their lives. I have no proof of this for reptiles but it's certainly the case for tropical fish for example.

A snakes metabolism isn't designed to run 24/7 and therefore it would have the option of speeding up and slowing down.

Your experience in the hobby tells you there is no ideal temperature to keep a snake at. They thermoregulate because outside conditions are not controllable. When they get too hot, they move somewhere cool. When theu get cold they move somewhere warm, if it exists. If a wild snake were able to find a place that maintained an ideal temperature, had a food source, and gave it security than I question if the snake would need to thermoregulate. I don't think anyone keeps snakes at the maximum temperatures we see on hotspots so i doubt over active metabolism is relavent.

[dannybgoode]

Your experience in the hobby tells you there is no ideal temperature to keep a snake at. They thermoregulate because outside conditions are not controllable. When they get too hot, they move somewhere cool. When theu get cold they move somewhere warm, if it exists. If a wild snake were able to find a place that maintained an ideal temperature, had a food source, and gave it security than I question if the snake would need to thermoregulate. I don't think anyone keeps snakes at the maximum temperatures we see on hotspots so i doubt over active metabolism is relavent.

So why in a viv with a hot spot then where there is likely to be a point where the temperature is 'ideal' and food is regular as is water does a snake still choose to stay for prolojged periods of time at different positions in that viv?

I doubt very much that a snake likes to be at a single temperature all the time but I guess unless there is a major study into the subject we'll never know for sure.

[RAD House]

So why in a viv with a hot spot then where there is likely to be a point where the temperature is 'ideal' and food is regular as is water does a snake still choose to stay for prolojged periods of time at different positions in that viv?

I doubt very much that a snake likes to be at a single temperature all the time but I guess unless there is a major study into the subject we'll never know for sure.

Well my initial thought would be that the snakes instinct would be to warm or cool as quickly as possible as outside conditions are so unpredictable. On top of this I imagine in most enclosures with a gradient of 90 to 75 there is relatively little area that is the ideal. I am not saying providing a gradient is wrong or harmful just that controlling ambient temps are not either, as testament from a number of folks who have good luck with it.

[TRD]

Most breeder practices aren't something one should copy over to maintain reptiles on the long run. There are so much care sheets already with very bad information.

Remember that breeders also have large(r) collections and a cost-revenue to take care off. Practicality often takes precedence over husbandry.

Keeping reptiles at a constant temperature over their entire living area is tricky because it's close to impossible to tell whether or not the reptiles are in fact comfortable, or just surviving. At least when offering a gradient, you offer the animal options.

[pet_snake_78]

My snake room is only around 78-80F and most of the snakes only use the hotspot infrequently (save a few species that just really like being warm). My thought is that 80F is warm enough for most species to digest food properly but not so hot that it harms them, but since many do still use the hot spot, I like providing it. tend to put the eggs in the highest locatoin furthest away from AC which is around 82ish which works well for me for many species. O.p.coxi I put in the lowest and coolest part of the room, at 75-79F Ive never given them any additional heat and multiple clutches every year without issue.

[Doug 351]

My snake room is only around 78-80F and most of the snakes only use the hotspot infrequently (save a few species that just really like being warm). My thought is that 80F is warm enough for most species to digest food properly but not so hot that it harms them, but since many do still use the hot spot, I like providing it. tend to put the eggs in the highest locatoin furthest away from AC which is around 82ish which works well for me for many species. O.p.coxi I put in the lowest and coolest part of the room, at 75-79F Ive never given them any additional heat and multiple clutches every year without issue.

I have to agree^. I believe the ONLY reason snakes need to thermoregulate is to digest food, and as long as they appear to be able to do so effectively, they don't need a heat source.

They may be snakes, but trust me, most species are perfectly happy sharing the same wonderful climate control we enjoy!

[Aaron_S]

Also you'd have take into consideration if you have a variety of different reptiles in our collection, all needing different temperatures. Another thing is if you have a heat failure on your system, every animal could be cooked or frozen depending on what goes wrong

The idea behind this 1 temp practice is to use it with the same species or a few species that all have relatively the same temperature requirements. For example, you'd have a room for North American colubrids as most would be able to handle the same temperatures.

I would believe if you go this route you'd have a generator hooked up to the room to stabilize should something happen to the power supply, much like we do with thermostats.

I have to agree^. I believe the ONLY reason snakes need to thermoregulate is to digest food, and as long as they appear to be able to do so effectively, they don't need a heat source.

They may be snakes, but trust me, most species are perfectly happy sharing the same wonderful climate control we enjoy!

I would disagree with you. Snakes use heat as a way to combat illness as well. Ever keep a snake too cool? What do you think happens to them? RI usually pops up pretty quick.



All in all this isn't a new idea. It was pretty big about 5 - 10 years ago when people were housing large collections. It seems people have less and less animals these days and it's unlikely to occur in all but the larger breeders. It works for some.

I personally believe in heating the racks individually and hooking them up to thermostats. It's probably easier to replace/repair a single thermostat and or rack instead of an entire rooms HVAC system.

[RAD House]

One thing about reptile heaters that should be mentioned, is that most are not UL listed. That means if they burn down your house or kill your animals it is likely not covered by your insurance.

[Aaron_S]

One thing about reptile heaters that should be mentioned, is that most are not UL listed. That means if they burn down your house or kill your animals it is likely not covered by your insurance.

Very good point.

There's also the fact that some people are running illegal businesses in a residential area that may not be zoned for it.
Of course this may not matter depending on local laws.

[Doug 351]

The idea behind this 1 temp practice is to use it with the same species or a few species that all have relatively the same temperature requirements. For example, you'd have a room for North American colubrids as most would be able to handle the same temperatures.

I would believe if you go this route you'd have a generator hooked up to the room to stabilize should something happen to the power supply, much like we do with thermostats.



I would disagree with you. Snakes use heat as a way to combat illness as well. Ever keep a snake too cool? What do you think happens to them? RI usually pops up pretty quick.



All in all this isn't a new idea. It was pretty big about 5 - 10 years ago when people were housing large collections. It seems people have less and less animals these days and it's unlikely to occur in all but the larger breeders. It works for some.

I personally believe in heating the racks individually and hooking them up to thermostats. It's probably easier to replace/repair a single thermostat and or rack instead of an entire rooms HVAC system.

OK....Sooooo....when EXACTLY did you have an HVAC system failure, and how old was it at the time???. Now...you can lie all you want, but everybody here has had one for 15-20 years no problem.

So ...outside of a back-up generator, a viv is gonna get colder than a room a lot faster. I don't know about snakes getting sick from lack of a heat source.

Not saying it's a bad idea to provide a heat source, just that with the right circumstances, and the right species, it's very doable.

My 15 year old Texas ratsnake has spent about 20 minutes of her life on a heat rock....otherwise, she's been perfectly happy.

And I've had quite a few other snakes as well...but I don't do exotics that are maybe used to tropical temps.

[Aaron_S]

OK....Sooooo....when EXACTLY did you have an HVAC system failure, and how old was it at the time???. Now...you can lie all you want, but everybody here has had one for 15-20 years no problem.

So ...outside of a back-up generator, a viv is gonna get colder than a room a lot faster. I don't know about snakes getting sick from lack of a heat source.

Not saying it's a bad idea to provide a heat source, just that with the right circumstances, and the right species, it's very doable.

My 15 year old Texas ratsnake has spent about 20 minutes of her life on a heat rock....otherwise, she's been perfectly happy.

And I've had quite a few other snakes as well...but I don't do exotics that are maybe used to tropical temps.

I'll go point by point.

1. I haven't had any issues. What I'm saying is if there IS an issue with it it'll cost more than a single thermostat or a new probe.

2. In general, rooms aren't insulated like an enclosure to keep in the level of humidity and heat that is required to keep these animals. Most people don't check into that sort of stuff and end up with mold or mildew in their walls because they didn't seal/check for proper insulation. We are talking exotic snakes, not a local Texas one.

3. Snakes get sick from a lack of proper heat. Again we aren't talking about catching a snake in our backyard. Common sense would dictate that for the most part (aside from when air conditioning is on) that a local snake species can be fine in local temperatures/humidity. But we're on a forum that has people from around the globe who keep snakes from around the globe so we have to discuss big picture here.

4. Yup. You spend 15 years, every minute and hour watching your snake and know it's never spent more than 20 minutes on a "heat rock" (God awful product that is).

5. Again, this is about all species. I accept your premise on your local snakes but that's where the discussion ends for you. When you have more experience in what we're talking about (considering the OP mentioned specifically boas and pythons) you can come to the adult discussion again.

If you'd like to refute my points again and try to point out where/how I'm wrong feel free. I don't think you'll get far.

[RAD House]

I'll go point by point.

1. I haven't had any issues. What I'm saying is if there IS an issue with it it'll cost more than a single thermostat or a new probe.

2. In general, rooms aren't insulated like an enclosure to keep in the level of humidity and heat that is required to keep these animals. Most people don't check into that sort of stuff and end up with mold or mildew in their walls because they didn't seal/check for proper insulation. We are talking exotic snakes, not a local Texas one.

3. Snakes get sick from a lack of proper heat. Again we aren't talking about catching a snake in our backyard. Common sense would dictate that for the most part (aside from when air conditioning is on) that a local snake species can be fine in local temperatures/humidity. But we're on a forum that has people from around the globe who keep snakes from around the globe so we have to discuss big picture here.

4. Yup. You spend 15 years, every minute and hour watching your snake and know it's never spent more than 20 minutes on a "heat rock" (God awful product that is).

5. Again, this is about all species. I accept your premise on your local snakes but that's where the discussion ends for you. When you have more experience in what we're talking about (considering the OP mentioned specifically boas and pythons) you can come to the adult discussion again.

If you'd like to refute my points again and try to point out where/how I'm wrong feel free. I don't think you'll get far.

Oh snap. This could be interesting.

[jjhill001]

I was recently speaking to a local breeder( a well known and respected one at that) and he was telling me how he keeps his entire collection at a constant temperature without offering the opportunity for the animals to thermo regulate. I was curious as to what everyone thinks of this. I wonder how this affects the animals long term??. I personally feel uncomfortable not letting my snakes cool off and warm up as wanted. Btw he breeds various boas and pythons

This is absolutely more common than anyone knows. The reason it isn't talked about more is because forum warriors have a habit of not approaching new ideas in reptile care with an open mind. That and it is kind of a more advanced husbandry topic. I know one respected breeder and is actually a reptile zoo curator who advocated that 79-82 degrees F period. He was a pretty big name in the carpet pythons other morelia back when those were first beginning to grow in popularity. I reached out to him on facebook a while ago and he kept rattle snakes, pythons, colubrids, basically every type of snake at that same temperature. The results he had and continues to have in particular are quite astounding in my opinion.

The basic theory was as follows:

- That a snake is aiming for optimal core body temperature which is in that 80 degree range.
- A snake only moves when something is wrong, temp isn't correct, hungry, thirsty, needs to mate.
- In the realms of a small box a snake will sit on a hot end or cold end for seemingly no reason for lengths of time.
- The most important thing in a snakes mind is security. Many keepers offer only 2 hides, one sitting directly on a hot spot and the other one on the cold side of the tank.
- The heat we offer snakes never gets too hot like a snake experiences in the wild, so a snake will sit in a warm hide with a core body temperature of 85-90 degrees F so the snake then metabolizes both water and food much more quickly than an animal would in the wild because a wild snake sits in the sun and then moves off when the sun becomes too hot. The body of the snake then holds this heat in as it moves off to go hunting and such gradually decreasing in temp until it needs to heat up again.
- The previous point was explained to be the primary reason that so many people have issues with their animals not having appropriate sheds. The animal's humidity isn't the primary issue its that the animal is under hydrated because the warm temperatures are causing them to metabolize water much more than usual.
- That being cold blooded is an advantage for snakes, they require less food, less water, and less expending of energy.
- Tropical snakes in particular do not need horribly hot and humid conditions, they merely endure these in the wild.
- If kept at these temperatures ambient 50-60% humidity is adequate.
- Lower temperatures slow metabolism which means that a more natural feeding schedule is appropriate.

Overall I was kind of taken aback when I first heard about the way he was keeping his snakes, turns out lots of other breeders are as well, he was just the most vocal about it.

To the validity of the theory, I'm a believer. Now this is all anecdotal because quite frankly the scientific community gives two turds about the squabbles of the captive husbandry of snakes, they aren't going to study something like this because they are trying to save these animals in the wild.

But if we think about it. Just the very basics, where it is hot and humid all the time snakes do not bask and are primarily nocturnal. Where it is hot and dry, snakes are primarily crepuscular edging more towards nocturnal (morning and evening) as to avoid the extremes of day heat, night cold. Where it is cooler in the upper ranges of snake territory across the globe we find diurnal species who bask frequently and retire at night. The in-between areas (not desert not tropical) we'll find snakes of many types as we gradually get closer from one to the other.

You can even kind of see this in individual wide ranging species in the wild. Lets take the bull snake, this snake's range extends all the way from just South East of Calgary, Alberta Canada down to the Gulf of Mexico in Texas. The average temperature of Calgary Canada is 50 degrees F in May, getting to an average of 63F in July and August and cooling to an average of 54F in September. Every other month there is obnoxiously cold on average.

Now lets look at say, Dallas Texas. They have a longer warm season, April averages out at 77F, the 90's from June to August and then finally 80F in October.

Now we can look at the behavior of the same species in two entirely different environments. If you ask someone who lives in Alberta Canada to go catch a bull snake they will have to go out in the day time in order to find them moving about. If you ask someone to search for a bull snake down in Texas they are going to have to look in the morning/evening hours because finding a snake in the dark is hard unless you're driving.

We can see that these same snakes are avoiding the cold/chasing the heat in the North. But running from the heat in the hotter South. I can't find the study but I remember looking for a study or something to confirm my thoughts. There is a study of bull snakes in Indiana and in Texas. They found that in each case, at the start of spring for the most part the animals were diurnal gradually moving to a more nocturnal lifestyle as the summer progressed and the weather got much hotter. This also mirrors the habits of many of the small mammals that they feed off of as well (no one likes 90 degree heat).

Lets just say the very basic logic behind it makes sense.

Lets look at another relatively wide ranging species. The Ball Python which more people are much more familiar with. This species ranges along the Southern coast of West Africa all the way over into Sudan. Now going East to West we can check out a few weather averages, Kumasi, Ghana has the seasons switched. Now here are the highs 89F in December, 90-91 from January to April gradually going down to 82F in August and gradually back up again to the hot season again. The lows are in the 75-76F range during the night during the hottest part of the year and 72F in the cooler months.

This temperature is more or less consistent across the entire range of Ball Pythons. For sake of more detail lets look at two more cities, Abuja Nigeria we have highs in the 90's throughout the hot season, we have low 80's in the cooler season. With the lows mirroring Kumasi in the 70's. We find this same phenomenon Arua Sudan.

What is the one thing we know about Ball Pythons? They are about as exclusively nocturnal as snakes get. Ball Pythons in the wild are most active in that 76-80 degree range. Remember, we were using the lows for each of these locations which occur at night. So if the low is lower-mid 70's we can expect the average temp at night to be a bit higher.

When we look at the captive husbandry of ball pythons what do we constantly see on caresheets? 77-80F cool end, 80-83 ambient with a 90 degree hot spot. What wild ball python is going out in the day to experience 90 degree anything? I know people mention them being found in termite mounds, which are supposedly kept at a constant 87 degrees F based on my research. But are we to believe that every ball python has their own termite mound that they never leave? How common is it to actually find a ball python in a termite mound. The only thing I could find for sure is that they are known to aestivate (reverse hibernation for when it's hot to conserve water) in these chambers. Could it be that the snakes can't possibly operate at those high temperatures and find enough food to replace the energy they expend living at those temperatures?

Even across continents/species/genus it appears that most snakes ( I won't say all but I've had this discussion before and I've brought up many more species ) are chasing essentially the same conditions.

-In Practice

People have a horrible time of maintaining their cage temperatures regardless of what kind of cage they are using, we see questions about it every day on the forums. The only way that someone can 100% adopt a strategy like this would be to have a dedicated snake room.

However I do believe that parts of this care strategy can be adopted by someone who doesn't have a full room and I personally have with my snakes (Only Baird's Rat Snakes at the moment, soon to change!) and have been very happy with it having zero shedding issues since I began utilizing it. Basically I use a larger heating pad set at a lower temperature than what most people would. What this does is essentially tighten up my temperature gradient. My ambient air temp above the heat pad is typically in the 81-83 range on the very edge of enclosure depending on the day/if the fan is running, the glass typically is at 85 or so. The cooler side has a bit more fluctuation based on room temp but its in the 76-77 range the majority of the time on that edge of the enclosure. I've found that working the heat from a lower number much more spread out in the cage is easier to manage than trying to manage the temperature in the cage from a tiny hot spot.

I honestly was worried that this would essentially cause my snake to never move and be even more boring than some snakes usually are. But I have to say that it seemingly brought out the true individual personalities of each of my snakes. My male is secretive only coming out when he's hungry. My female is bold as can be often laying out watching me hoping it's feeding day (It was yesterday Lucy calm down). They explore their enclosures looking for a way out and otherwise there hasn't been much of a change from other snakes in the past than the shedding issues that I've had in past with other snakes I'm just not experiencing with mine.

The only old habit that is dying hard is that I moisten the moss in one of the hides when I notice they are in blue, the person who educated me on this said it's not necessary however. I can say that I've always done this with my snakes, yet back then with the hot spots I'd still occasionally have an eye cap or some other stupid thing. This has just been my experience so far with the method. Going on 2 1/2 years since I got back into the hobby after a few year hiatus due to military service.


-Conclusion

In a world where the confirmed longest lived corn snake was a wild caught animal from the 70's or 80's (can't remember which) a time when people used heat lamps and had shedding issues all over the place with every species, I'm beginning to think that there is just more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to snake husbandry and people REALLY like the way they skin that cat. We see it all over the community particularly in forums with all manner of reptile species.

That said, the earlier forum warrior comment wasn't meant for anyone in particular on this forum. In fact I'd say that in terms of discussing new ideas, presenting alternative theories, or simply asking questions is met mostly with curiosity, proper debate and interest. Some communities will bite a newcomers head off for being a bit confused about something, I know we've all seen it if we've been in the hobby for more than a few years.

When I ask people why they are keeping their snakes a certain way and they'll often say because its natural, well little boxes aren't natural. I'm never going to buy a bull snake and keep it with ambient temperatures in the upper 60's because that's what happens in Canada. And when someone is keeping their snake in a rubber maid shoe box on paper with no overhead light tells me about what's natural it's kind of a little bit laughable.

We've over the years decided what's natural based on how easy it is. Picking and choosing what we want as new products release and make our lives easier once again. The snake hobby almost as a whole decided that "belly heat" is natural, why? What snake in the amazon river basin is getting belly heat? We decided it's natural because heating pads and flex watt are easier to deal with than lamps are. The only reason is that we discovered that they don't need UVB like a lizard does, otherwise every single one of us would be using lamps still.

The point is, my methods are different than many. We all have different sources of information, have read different caresheets, own different books and we ALL do things differently, based on our personal climates, housing situations, etc. I'm not going to look at someone keeping their snakes in tubs and scoff because I feel the animals should have decorations, I wouldn't expect someone who keeps their snakes in tubs to scoff at someone with a nicely decorated or even planted vivarium for their snakes. Because in the end, the result is what matters, I'm not gonna tell someone who's snakes I can see are plenty healthy on the forums that they are doing something incorrect especially if they've been doing it over a long enough timeline.

Anyways I think most people who've been around a while know what a healthy snake looks like. In my eyes that's the ultimate test. If someone has healthy animals, they are feeding, breeding and thriving. I don't care if your snake is in a tub, a vivarium, a 10x10x10ft natural setup with every gizmo and gadget to make it replicate the natural weather of wherever the snake is from. A healthy snake is a healthy snake. We all can claim to know what's best but only the snakes truly know and the only hints we get are those factors I've mentioned.

[dave himself]

Lots of Interresting reading here and different views :)

[BillyCostume]

Lots of Interresting reading here and different views :)

Absolutely, I'm happy to see good discussion on the topic with varying views. It seems as though many different methods work for different people, as reptile keepers I think in general we're a little hard headed and set in our ways when it comes to husbandry. Like someone previously mentioned some forums would jump down people's throats for doing something different than what they consider to be the proper method. Glad to see this isn't what's going on here :)

On another note...I've kept many species of fish in my life (fresh water, saltwater, tropical and cold water). Fish are ectothermic yet we don't provide them with an opportunity to thermoregulate. I realize this is impractical in an aquarium if not nearly impossible. We keep them at a steady 78-82F range and they thrive. In nature fish often feed and remain in warmer/shallower water to digest before returning to deeper/cooler waters. I fail to see why snakes would differ.

[Andy_G]

I have to agree^. I believe the ONLY reason snakes need to thermoregulate is to digest food, and as long as they appear to be able to do so effectively, they don't need a heat source.


No offence intended, but I disagree strongly with the statement bolded above, as heat is also used by these animals to aid in their immune responses in regards to both resistance to pathogens as well as battling ailments.

Good discussion. :)

[Andy_G]

. Lets take the bull snake, this snake's range extends all the way from just South East of Calgary, Alberta Canada down to the Gulf of Mexico in Texas. The average temperature of Calgary Canada is 50 degrees F in May, getting to an average of 63F in July and August and cooling to an average of 54F in September.

No idea where you retrieved this information, but average temps in Calgary for May as an example is 55-66F, and in July 76-90F, so although I can't/won't refute the rest of your post, some of these temperature averages that you mentioned are debatable depending on what source of information was used. Otherwise an excellent post.

[dannybgoode]

There's one very important aspect that is being overlooked here and why I still fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's been posted.

So, you see a snake basking on a rock or some hard ground or a branch. It's easy 3pm and the air temperature is a nice 26c.

What is the temperature of the rock, ground, branch whatever. It'll be at least several degrees warmer than the air temperature and in some cases 40-50c. Air temperature is a really bad measure of what a snake is wanting to bask at.

Get a decent thermometer and a temp gun and take some measurements yourselves and see - especially those of you lucky enough to live somewhere wild snakes are common. See a snake and zap its being spot with a temp gun and see just how warm the ground is.

Where my T lepidus is outside I measured the air temp at around 24c and the ground in the sun in his enclosure at 33c.

He sometimes basks where it is warmest and sometimes hides where the ground is cooler but the air temp is pretty consistent during the day.

Keeping snakes at low air temperature can often mean the 'ground' is way too cold.

[Aaron_S]

There's one very important aspect that is being overlooked here and why I still fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's been posted.

So, you see a snake basking on a rock or some hard ground or a branch. It's easy 3pm and the air temperature is a nice 26c.

What is the temperature of the rock, ground, branch whatever. It'll be at least several degrees warmer than the air temperature and in some cases 40-50c. Air temperature is a really bad measure of what a snake is wanting to bask at.

Get a decent thermometer and a temp gun and take some measurements yourselves and see - especially those of you lucky enough to live somewhere wild snakes are common. See a snake and zap its being spot with a temp gun and see just how warm the ground is.

Where my T lepidus is outside I measured the air temp at around 24c and the ground in the sun in his enclosure at 33c.

He sometimes basks where it is warmest and sometimes hides where the ground is cooler but the air temp is pretty consistent during the day.

Keeping snakes at low air temperature can often mean the 'ground' is way too cold.

Over the last few years I've come to a similar conclusion. Hot spots and the animals will do the rest. I believe that these animals can't sit in one spot for too long or a predator will snatch them up quick so they goto the hottest spot, get warm and off they go.

With that said I understand where and why people are using a single temp room. I don't see any harm in it considering people have done it with multitude of animals and have had great results for the most part.

[jjhill001]

No idea where you retrieved this information, but average temps in Calgary for May as an example is 55-66F, and in July 76-90F, so although I can't/won't refute the rest of your post, some of these temperature averages that you mentioned are debatable depending on what source of information was used. Otherwise an excellent post.

Those were purely averages. Not for day or night. Multiple sites had the same information in regards to those averages. The daytime highs might be 76-90 in July. But we can look at the weather forecast there this week and it's got highs of low-mid 80's but at night it's in the low 50's. That 30 degree swing is what draws the average down. The average I used was just as an example of how snakes up north are chasing the heat while snakes down south are running from it.

[Andy_G]

Those were purely averages. Not for day or night. Multiple sites had the same information in regards to those averages. The daytime highs might be 76-90 in July. But we can look at the weather forecast there this week and it's got highs of low-mid 80's but at night it's in the low 50's. That 30 degree swing is what draws the average down. The average I used was just as an example of how snakes up north are chasing the heat while snakes down south are running from it.

Ah, I see. :)

[jjhill001]

There's one very important aspect that is being overlooked here and why I still fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's been posted.

So, you see a snake basking on a rock or some hard ground or a branch. It's easy 3pm and the air temperature is a nice 26c.

What is the temperature of the rock, ground, branch whatever. It'll be at least several degrees warmer than the air temperature and in some cases 40-50c. Air temperature is a really bad measure of what a snake is wanting to bask at.

Get a decent thermometer and a temp gun and take some measurements yourselves and see - especially those of you lucky enough to live somewhere wild snakes are common. See a snake and zap its being spot with a temp gun and see just how warm the ground is.

Where my T lepidus is outside I measured the air temp at around 24c and the ground in the sun in his enclosure at 33c.

He sometimes basks where it is warmest and sometimes hides where the ground is cooler but the air temp is pretty consistent during the day.

Keeping snakes at low air temperature can often mean the 'ground' is way too cold.

"What is the temperature of the rock, ground, branch whatever. It'll be at least several degrees warmer than the air temperature and in some cases 40-50c. Air temperature is a really bad measure of what a snake is wanting to bask at."

Absolutely agree, but the idea states that the temperatures we offer are not too hot like a snake would experience in nature (it's chasing a core body temperature). I'm in North East Ohio and just went outside and temp gunned a log that's in direct sunlight in my backyard. It's 80 degree's outside, the log's surface temperature is 110 degrees F and it rained literally 30 minutes ago. I don't know of any keeper that, in the confines of even some of the larger enclosures we offer for most snake, that would feel comfortable offering a 110 degree spot. I'd imagine on a day like this I would find very few snakes basking because the temperature is kind of where it needs to be for them. The dark color of the snake would increase the ability to heat up tremendously.

The reason I think, that captive snakes will sit on a 90 degree hotspot for seemingly days on end is because it never gets so hot it has to move. If we think about how important security is to a snake it makes sense. Back in the BP example I used we see they'll sit in those termite mounds which are 87 degrees. Is the python there because the temp is that warm or because most animals avoid termite mounds because they don't want to be bitten? As we know the pythons are most active at night which in their home range is 75 degrees. I think the ball python just deals with that heat like all sub Saharan animals have to.

I think this is kind of similar to the movement going on over in the monitor and bearded dragon communities. 100 degrees just isn't hot enough of a spot for those animals, there are keepers experimenting with 120, 140, I've even seen 160 degrees F hot spots. Now these are totally different animals entirely but I think the basic idea behind it is similar. Here in Ohio that log was 30 degrees warmer than the air temperature, would it not be more natural in captivity that if we're offering a hot spot that it's closer to that 110 degree temperature? And why are we offering hot spots to species that we know in the wild, don't bask?

It's similar to cooking in a sense, the core temperature of the log isn't going to be as warm as the surface temperature, the heat hits the surface and gradually goes into say, a steak. A room temperature steak that is about an inch thick is going to take a while to reach 110 degrees in the center of it if the surface temperature of you're skillet is only 110 degrees.

I think of ambient heating sort of like sou vide method of cooking where the food is submerged in water set at the exact temperature you want the meat. A medium rare steak (130F) that is 1 inch thick takes an hour to reach a full temp of 130F in the same temperature water.

In the wild, a temperate snake has to use the skillet method, we look at a snake, if it is warming up from say a 65 degree night, it only has to reach that 80 degree core temperature. By sitting in the morning sun which as I just experimented can easily cause a dark surface to be 30 degrees warmer than the air temperature it makes even more sense. Then as the air temperature reaches a more optimal temp we don't see the snakes basking much.

The snakes in tropical areas where it's just hot, period no matter what you do, just have to deal with obnoxious heat until night time when they can do what they need to do.

[PatrickV]

i worked for this breeder in his shop and his animals are all healthy and doing well. like you said, he has had great success with this method and i also use this method. i keep my room in the mid 80's and all my animals digest well, grow well, and have never gotten sick. I have 9 boa's and a ball python. i give the ball python a heat source but not the boa's. this breeder has been doing this a long time and knows what he's talking about. like others have said, people on the internet are not open to new ideas concerning husbandry. this breeder actually says that he has had greater success in breeding his boa's and pythons using this method than he had previously when he provided them with hotspots.

[PatrickV]

Also you'd have take into consideration if you have a variety of different reptiles in our collection, all needing different temperatures. Another thing is if you have a heat failure on your system, every animal could be cooked or frozen depending on what goes wrong

this breeder has everything from womas to carpets to indigos to taiwan beauties, all kept at the same constant temps and they are all doing well.
it seems odd at first, but he's been doing it this way successfully for years.

[chairman]

I remember having a similar discussion about tortoises about a decade ago. There was a keeper that kept his tortoises at 85F with no gradient. The practice was justified based on a couple premises.

One is that reptiles exhibit behaviours that suggest thermoregulation. They seek heat when it is cold and retreat to cooler areas in extreme heat. The hypothesis drawn from this observation was that reptiles may seek to maintain a constant body temperature.

Then there were some field studies of wild tortoises in which internal temperatures were estimated using thermal cameras. There was a European species in the Iberian peninsula that was studied, and I believe a separate study of redfoots and yellowfoots in South America as well. All the tortoises had internal temperatures around 85F.

Thus the keeping of a wide variety of species at a constant temperature. The collection was reported to be quite healthy.

It is possible that snakes could thermoregulate to maintain a stable body temperature. They may need to bask when they've had a meal not because they need additional heat to digest, but because that extra mass requires additional heat to maintain their target body temperature.

Hot spots may also be used to induce a "fever" to combat illness, a standard immune response that doesn't necessarily refute the idea that a healthy collection may be kept at a constant temperature.

That all said, providing a gradient with a cool side, warm side, and hot spot is considerably more "idiot proof" than aiming to maintain one temperature. The gradient allows the animal to do all the work, induce fevers, etc. Using a single temperature approach is probably something that should only be done by experienced keepers for established animals. If I used a single temp approach I certainly wouldn't use it in quarantine, let those new animals that I don't know yet combat whatever they need to.

But still, it is an interesting question, that could be studied by an enterprising master's or PhD student with a thermal camera and access to some quality herping locations.

[jjhill001]

That all said, providing a gradient with a cool side, warm side, and hot spot is considerably more "idiot proof" than aiming to maintain one temperature. The gradient allows the animal to do all the work, induce fevers, etc. Using a single temperature approach is probably something that should only be done by experienced keepers for established animals. If I used a single temp approach I certainly wouldn't use it in quarantine, let those new animals that I don't know yet combat whatever they need to.



Really interesting stuff with the tortoises.

I have to agree pretty heartily with this last paragraph. I probably should have put a disclaimer in the beginning of my post that the theory in general is not something that a beginner should be going off of, especially if they don't have a lot of knowledge of how snakes act. I don't necessarily think it's a horrible thing for a beginner keeper to tighten up the temps in the various "zones" of the terrarium.

People on this forum haven't heard much about how I actually keep my snakes except for a few people that have actually PM'd me for advice on specific issues. I know one keeper on this forum keeps all of his snakes with ceramic heat emitters and I believe UVB lights as well, I'm not gonna mention any usernames because stuff like this has become controversial and quite frankly if he wants dragged into the discussion he'll show up lol.

There really is something to be said of experience. When I was a new keeper I thought I knew everything because I had read so much and done so much research, I never thought that in practice the rules sometimes go out the window (anyone remember back when people said mealworms would eat a lizard from the inside?) lol. I would give advice on random animals even though I only really kept frogs at the time. I think a lot of new keepers who do research on tons of animals prior to picking a specific one can end up doing this especially back when I was young and the internet was just so new lol.

Nowadays I try to the best of my ability to avoid talking with any sort of authority on something I haven't had experience with. My snake experience has been limited to colubrids, corns, rats, kings, gophers, garters, and a water snake for a week or two when I was a kid before my mom found out I had it (I told her my leopard frog would eat the feeder fish I bought). I worked at a pet store as a teen, but I've found that they don't let a kid take much of an active part in the actual care of the animals apart from cleaning up poop and scrubbing algae off of fish tanks. The only time I'll offer up information on something is if there aren't any replies and I feel as if my experience with other reptiles would help, mostly common sense, or "here's what I'd try" type stuff.

I'll tell you right now that if I'm ever going to consider buying a ball python the first person I'm PMing is Aaron_S. The link is right in the signature to see they are keeping some BEAUTIFUL animals. What's he doing, why? what are his conditions like where he's living, my situation is this what would you do if yours was similar etc. If I'm asking for advice on larger enclosures I'm asking dannybgoode.

Beginners who may have read this far, I can say that having resources like the ones mentioned above and others, finding people who you can trust and bother even taking the time is what makes this community so special. You don't see the mega breeders on here helping people out, just other keepers and maybe some smaller breeders who take the time out of their day to help others, discuss the animals we love so much and quite frankly give a crap about some random pet that might be 1000's of miles away.

[dave himself]

Also you'd have take into consideration if you have a variety of different reptiles in our collection, all needing different temperatures. Another thing is if you have a heat failure on your system, every animal could be cooked or frozen depending on what goes wrong

Seems this statement I made as been proven wrong a few times:). I'm happy to be corrected and even happier to have learnt something;)

[jjhill001]

I think the theory only works when we're talking snakes. Every other reptile "type" I think would have to be taken individually. Maybe there is a lizard number, a frog number, salamander, maybe this is something that is unique to snakes, who knows, it's incredibly interesting to be honest. We now have a report of someone doing something similar with tortoises in the thread. Could there be a "general acceptable temp" for each various family of reptiles? Honestly who knows. I'm gonna say probably not but who knows.

I think that there is less of a physiological difference between most snake species to other snake species, tortoise to other tortoise species than there is with say lizards, turtles, and salamanders. And perhaps that is what lends this method to those two types of reptiles best.

Overall I think it's really interesting.

[dave himself]

I'm taking a trip to Dublin zoo today, if I bump into any of the keepers in the reptile section I'll ask if they have hotspots in they're vivs or just an all over ambient temp. This is one of the best threads that's been on here in a while, I'm really enjoying it.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by dave himself View Post
Also you'd have take into consideration if you have a variety of different reptiles in our collection, all needing different temperatures. Another thing is if you have a heat failure on your system, every animal could be cooked or frozen depending on what goes wrong

No I think you raise a very important point here Dave. Snakes *survive* in sub optimal conditions. Snakes (as will most any animal) breed in sub optimal conditions. I don't see breeding in and of itself as a sign that a snake, or indeed any animal, is being kept well or otherwise.

Look at puppy farms (which *some* reptile breeders are akin to). They sure breed a lot of dogs but I don't see people rushing out to copy their methods and propgate their practices on the internet. Yet people hear X snake breeder does y so y just be a great way of keeping snakes. No y method just means that breeder can churn out a lot of animals for less money (and note comment isn't aimed at any individual in particular).

There may well be a single temperature that a range of species will do ok at but for example using the figure of 85f (a little over 29c) that's been quoted here - that would kill my persicus and would be far too hot for a number of Asian and European species.

As a daytime temperature too cool (optimally speaking) for most Australian species and too warm for almost all species as a nighttime temperature. Almost nowhere on earth is it that warm throughout the night.

Also provide a single temperature is likely to discourage movement. Most capture snakes are under-exercised as it is and anything that further discourages movement and care exploration is a negative imo.

I can quite see why it's done and for similar species perhaps it works but I don't think it's good practice for the reasons I mention in this and other posts on this thread.

[jjhill001]

No I think you raise a very important point here Dave. Snakes *survive* in sub optimal conditions. Snakes (as will most any animal) breed in sub optimal conditions. I don't see breeding in and of itself as a sign that a snake, or indeed any animal, is being kept well or otherwise.

Look at puppy farms (which *some* reptile breeders are akin to). They sure breed a lot of dogs but I don't see people rushing out to copy their methods and propgate their practices on the internet. Yet people hear X snake breeder does y so y just be a great way of keeping snakes. No y method just means that breeder can churn out a lot of animals for less money (and note comment isn't aimed at any individual in particular).

There may well be a single temperature that a range of species will do ok at but for example using the figure of 85f (a little over 29c) that's been quoted here - that would kill my persicus and would be far too hot for a number of Asian and European species.

As a daytime temperature too cool (optimally speaking) for most Australian species and too warm for almost all species as a nighttime temperature. Almost nowhere on earth is it that warm throughout the night.

Also provide a single temperature is likely to discourage movement. Most capture snakes are under-exercised as it is and anything that further discourages movement and care exploration is a negative imo.

I can quite see why it's done and for similar species perhaps it works but I don't think it's good practice for the reasons I mention in this and other posts on this thread.

I believe that 85F was for the person who brought up a tortoise keeper. The main idea with the snake theory is that cool (by reptile standards) 79-82F
(26.111-27.777C). The breeder I spoke with's specialty was Morelia which is carpet pythons, chondros and the like which are all from Australia.

Before I finish the thought, I think it's great we have international people on this forum. European and American snake keeping is about as different as can be and a lot of primarily American communities have very different standards than those in Europe. I've read The Art of Keeping Snakes, written by a European snake keeper/herpetologist (I think he is anyways). I believe that many of it's theories to be correct as well. Mainly, belly heat is a stupid construct of the reptile community.

For you Danny, would a temperature of 80F (26.6C) read as too hot for night time, too cold for day? I don't think they would. I feel that you likely have this exact temperature somewhere in your terrariums and that many successful snake keepers who don't have lots of problems do whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Sidenote to anyone still reading, challenge mode: where on earth is there a temp of 85 at night! I agree with Danny on this, 85 at night would be insane.

Another Australian species whom the person I spoke with had tons of success with, Diamond Pythons. The crown jewel to many in the python world and has a reputation as being incredibly difficult to work with. Here are the average temps for the southern range of that species: Weather and temperature averages for Eden, Australia (http://www.holiday-weather.com/eden_au/averages/) , the average temp is clearly much lower than the 80 degrees that is in this theory.

Now how is this explained, clearly as previously mentioned surface temps in the sun can be much higher than the ambient temps. So the max temp we're looking at based on the daily highs in this area (75F) would be about 100 degrees? or so. Easily allowing for these species to reach the 80 core temp described in the theory.

I've found that a mostly single temp, hasn't inhibited the movements of my snakes. This is only me I can speak for sure on. But the animals have other motivating factors other than temperature for reasons to move. Feeding, breeding, etc. I'm of the ilk who thinks that snakes will actively just explore, searching for opportunities for food, breeding, etc. I agree with you wholeheartedly that snakes in captivity suffer from a lack of movement room and in general to be fair, activity volume that a wild snake would experience. I think that room is a good thing to have available for any reptile, any animal to be fair.

What I'm trying to do is combine the two methodologies. I think there is a middle ground that is the TRUE optimal situation for a snake.

Anyways I'm up late again. Just some thoughts for you?

[dannybgoode]

Ah, I'm glad you mentioned diamonds as they illustrate the point well. Yes they need to be kept much cooler than other Australian pythons. And note my male olive regurged at a not much lower temperature than 26c (hottest part of the viv was 23-24c) due to a stat failure so the margin for error can be narrow.

This again imo shows that even a couple of degrees can have an impact on ultimate well being. 26 may be fine for say a regius but 28 is preferable for an Imperator (note these are not meant to be accurate numbers - merely for illustration). Sure the Imperator will survive at 26 but it is not optimal for it and vice versa.

As to night temperatures again for some species (tropical) the nighttime can be as stifling as the day with little variation but for desert species and say kings and milks from mountainous regions the day / night variation can be very great indeed. So yes, for some species 26c 24/7 may be within wild parameters for others it'd be out by several factors.

Note as well even 26c would be too hot for some species (again my persicus likes it around 22-23 as do a number of Asian rats and European colubrids).

For the record I heat my room to around 22c and then have each viv with a species specific hot spots and temperature variation on a daily cycle.

I want to get even more advanced than this but that's a project I'm working on which I will reveal in due course.

Finally regardless of why snakes thermoregulate in the wild the fact is they do. Millions of years of evolution makes it so. Again imo they should be able to practice this in captivity also given this.

[Aaron_S]

Really interesting stuff with the tortoises.

I have to agree pretty heartily with this last paragraph. I probably should have put a disclaimer in the beginning of my post that the theory in general is not something that a beginner should be going off of, especially if they don't have a lot of knowledge of how snakes act. I don't necessarily think it's a horrible thing for a beginner keeper to tighten up the temps in the various "zones" of the terrarium.

People on this forum haven't heard much about how I actually keep my snakes except for a few people that have actually PM'd me for advice on specific issues. I know one keeper on this forum keeps all of his snakes with ceramic heat emitters and I believe UVB lights as well, I'm not gonna mention any usernames because stuff like this has become controversial and quite frankly if he wants dragged into the discussion he'll show up lol.

There really is something to be said of experience. When I was a new keeper I thought I knew everything because I had read so much and done so much research, I never thought that in practice the rules sometimes go out the window (anyone remember back when people said mealworms would eat a lizard from the inside?) lol. I would give advice on random animals even though I only really kept frogs at the time. I think a lot of new keepers who do research on tons of animals prior to picking a specific one can end up doing this especially back when I was young and the internet was just so new lol.

Nowadays I try to the best of my ability to avoid talking with any sort of authority on something I haven't had experience with. My snake experience has been limited to colubrids, corns, rats, kings, gophers, garters, and a water snake for a week or two when I was a kid before my mom found out I had it (I told her my leopard frog would eat the feeder fish I bought). I worked at a pet store as a teen, but I've found that they don't let a kid take much of an active part in the actual care of the animals apart from cleaning up poop and scrubbing algae off of fish tanks. The only time I'll offer up information on something is if there aren't any replies and I feel as if my experience with other reptiles would help, mostly common sense, or "here's what I'd try" type stuff.

I'll tell you right now that if I'm ever going to consider buying a ball python the first person I'm PMing is Aaron_S. The link is right in the signature to see they are keeping some BEAUTIFUL animals. What's he doing, why? what are his conditions like where he's living, my situation is this what would you do if yours was similar etc. If I'm asking for advice on larger enclosures I'm asking dannybgoode.

Beginners who may have read this far, I can say that having resources like the ones mentioned above and others, finding people who you can trust and bother even taking the time is what makes this community so special. You don't see the mega breeders on here helping people out, just other keepers and maybe some smaller breeders who take the time out of their day to help others, discuss the animals we love so much and quite frankly give a crap about some random pet that might be 1000's of miles away.

I'm going to go point by point but I really appreciate the compliment.

1. I also agree that this is a method for experienced keepers. No one has begrudged the breeder the OP mentioned for using this method. It's worked for them and that's great.

2. A lot of new keepers did/do that still to this day. I am guilty of doing some of it when I was in my mid-teens after my research and working for a pet store. Oddly, people still think mealworms can eat your animal from the inside out (less so than before but it's still out there). I've grown to be more open to listening to others and when I meet new people do my best to encourage their hobby choices/passion as long as the animal isn't in any danger/harm. (I try to even do it on the forum when someone's new until they show their ignorance or stupidity. Then I'm done with them.)

3. I agree here as well. I've never really done the bioactive set up so I'd reach out to those I know who do/did to ask some questions about it and get their guidance.


In general, I agree and I'm happy that someone mentioned the bearded dragon community has caught onto what the monitor community has been doing with really high hot spots. I've thought for the past few years that a bearded dragon kept similar to a savannah monitor would be an awesome pet to have. They'd burrow, bask, be really interesting to watch. On the flip side, I doubt you'd have the lazy, calm things we have today though.

It's been a good discussion and it's good to see some really interesting facts and data come out.

[Doug 351]

Well...ONE CRITTER that DID use the heat rock....was a green iguana.

Hmmmmm....maybe that "tropical" thing.

Let me initerate... I'm in NO way advocating AGAINST supplemental heating....HOWEVER, pointing out it's often unnecessary and COULD be dangerous.

Alright....here we go....I could bet you a $1000 that if I recommended a heat rock... There would be replies....

[Doug 351]

Listen....I don't hate anyone. I don't judge....

Let's see...

[dannybgoode]

Recommending an unsafe piece of equipment when there are plenty of safe alternatives is completely different to what is being discussed here.

[Doug 351]

Recommending an unsafe piece of equipment when there are plenty of safe alternatives is completely different to what is being discussed here.

Well....unfortunately, we are on different sides of the street, ....and I throw down the gauntlet!!!!

But....I wanna see ANY EVIDENCE a heat rock has injured anything but a British woman in the last 10 years!

Ummmm.....I don't ever wanna see a reptile injured.... ( unless it lives in the UK!!!! ( Love ya bud, ya know I'm kidding!)

[jjhill001]

Well....unfortunately, we are on different sides of the street, ....and I throw down the gauntlet!!!!

But....I wanna see ANY EVIDENCE a heat rock has injured anything but a British woman in the last 10 years!

Ummmm.....I don't ever wanna see a reptile injured.... ( unless it lives in the UK!!!! ( Love ya bud, ya know I'm kidding!)

I think the heat rock discussion at least potentially has validity to be reopened. Back in the day they were dangerous. We all saw pictures and hear horror stories.

Could the quality control and designs, safety measures have improved in the 25 or so years since they first became popular? I think its possible, they still sell the dang things even though seemingly every reptile community on the planet strongly recommends against them. Could they have been improved to the point that a failure or burn is as rare as it is with heat pads?

That said, even if they are as safe as a heat pad is. They affect the ambient temps less than a wide spread heat pad, look ugly most of the time and in my opinion the optimal product would still be the heat pad even ignoring the safety concerns of a heat rock.

[dannybgoode]

I think the heat rock discussion at least potentially has validity to be reopened. Back in the day they were dangerous. We all saw pictures and hear horror stories.

Could the quality control and designs, safety measures have improved in the 25 or so years since they first became popular? I think its possible, they still sell the dang things even though seemingly every reptile community on the planet strongly recommends against them. Could they have been improved to the point that a failure or burn is as rare as it is with heat pads?

That said, even if they are as safe as a heat pad is. They affect the ambient temps less than a wide spread heat pad, look ugly most of the time and in my opinion the optimal product would still be the heat pad even ignoring the safety concerns of a heat rock.

Even with more stringent quality controls and safety their very design encourages a reptile to sit on or wrap round them which increases the chance of thermal blocking.

Anyway, I'm reluctant to comment further on this thread as it's been a really interesting debate and I don't want to pollute it and take too far off topic. With this in mind Doug perhaps start at new thread specifically on heat rocks and we can discuss there.

[Doug 351]

I think the heat rock discussion at least potentially has validity to be reopened. Back in the day they were dangerous. We all saw pictures and hear horror stories.

Could the quality control and designs, safety measures have improved in the 25 or so years since they first became popular? I think its possible, they still sell the dang things even though seemingly every reptile community on the planet strongly recommends against them. Could they have been improved to the point that a failure or burn is as rare as it is with heat pads?

That said, even if they are as safe as a heat pad is. They affect the ambient temps less than a wide spread heat pad, look ugly most of the time and in my opinion the optimal product would still be the heat pad even ignoring the safety concerns of a heat rock.

I don't see the need...AGAIN!!!! Just need one fatality... .( AIN'T HAPPENING!!!!!) HEAT rocks are SAFE now... DEAL WITH IT!!!!

[SSSSnakes]

I have seen a heat rock severely burn (cook) a boas tail. I like heat rocks, cut off the cord and they make nice decorations.

[Doug 351]

I have seen a heat rock severely burn (cook) a boas tail. I like heat rocks, cut off the cord and they make nice decorations.

LOL! I have one....it's about as hot as a lap dog... and no problems in years and years.

NOW....my point is...YES!!! They used to be crap....but!!!!! Before we even have a RIDICULOUS conversation on something that DOESN'T EXSIST...( heat rock danger)... We should start with something substantial, not outdated OPINIONS!

BTW: I don't see the need for a separate thread, (I thought this was about HEAT SOURCES!)

[jjhill001]

LOL! I have one....it's about as hot as a lap dog... and no problems in years and years.

NOW....my point is...YES!!! They used to be crap....but!!!!! Before we even have a RIDICULOUS conversation on something that DOESN'T EXSIST...( heat rock danger)... We should start with something substantial, not outdated OPINIONS!

BTW: I don't see the need for a separate thread, (I thought this was about HEAT SOURCES!)

https://www.google.com/search?q=heat+rock+burns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_zuz49ZvVAhWDyT4KHQ6uAOEQ_AUIDCgD&biw=1920&bih=974#tbm=isch&q=heat+rock+burns+reptiles

It's many more than just one animal affected. They were also much more prevalent years ago before people posted literally everything on the internet. And given the shame of killing your own animal after people on a community site told you not to use one, I doubt they come back to admit they were wrong.

In addition, I would say probably only 10% of the reptile community frequents forums and sites like this for any long time period. Probably less than 50% of reptile keepers ever even create an account. And another 50% just do whatever the pet store tells them to.

That 50% doing whatever a pet store tells them to do aren't likely to even know that communities like this even exist thus we're not likely to hear about it.

[Doug 351]

https://www.google.com/search?q=heat+rock+burns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_zuz49ZvVAhWDyT4KHQ6uAOEQ_AUIDCgD&biw=1920&bih=974#tbm=isch&q=heat+rock+burns+reptiles

It's many more than just one animal affected. They were also much more prevalent years ago before people posted literally everything on the internet. And given the shame of killing your own animal after people on a community site told you not to use one, I doubt they come back to admit they were wrong.

In addition, I would say probably only 10% of the reptile community frequents forums and sites like this for any long time period. Probably less than 50% of reptile keepers ever even create an account. And another 50% just do whatever the pet store tells them to.

That 50% doing whatever a pet store tells them to do aren't likely to even know that communities like this even exist thus we're not likely to hear about it.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree. First off, most members on ANY pet forums....are likely to be overly protective and unrealistic in NECESSARY accommodation.

I take the position that most pet owners are OVERPROCTECTIVE... and not very likely to be swayed or swindled by pet store employees. Does it happen??? Of course...but...usually those dolts don't show up on pet forums.

[jjhill001]

I'm sorry, I have to disagree. First off, most members on ANY pet forums....are likely to be overly protective and unrealistic in NECESSARY accommodation.

I take the position that most pet owners are OVERPROCTECTIVE... and not very likely to be swayed or swindled by pet store employees. Does it happen??? Of course...but...usually those dolts don't show up on pet forums.

I beg to disagree. We see it on the forums quite frequently, someone shows their setup or asks a question and when asked why they are doing something a certain way one of the more common reason's given is "that's what the employee told me".

Many keeper's first herp was from an impulse purchase. Or just asking mom and she just goes and gets the stuff that the employee gives her etc. My first herp EVER was a leopard frog I raised from a tadpole I caught at a friend's house. I had literally never read a book about animal care in my life. I kinda just winged it based on what I knew about frogs, the first summer I fed it by literally going outside and catching 10-20 black crickets, worms and such every other day or so. It wasn't until winter that I had to figure out what the heck I was gonna feed him, that led me to the internet in all of it's dial up glory and random colored text common of 90's webpages.

I had literally never been in a pet store that sold reptiles before. All our fish in my mom's aquarium were from Walmart (The 90's were a wild wasteland of change and confusion for everyone involved).

Anyways then I got a library card and the rest is history for me.

The main point is, people get the animal, having little knowledge. They DO care about their pet and are protective of it. But I feel it is much more common for that to come AFTER they get their animal. Not before. And if nothing bad happens, they don't have to venture to the internet for anything unless they REALLY catch the bug or find a book or something that expands on what they know about the reptile community. They often only venture here if something goes wrong.

I'm talking the FIRST reptile pet someone gets is going to be a beginner and will have a good chance of being misled by a pet store employee. Sometimes that person has done a lot of research but more likely they didn't.

[dannybgoode]

LOL! I have one....it's about as hot as a lap dog... and no problems in years and years.

NOW....my point is...YES!!! They used to be crap....but!!!!! Before we even have a RIDICULOUS conversation on something that DOESN'T EXSIST...( heat rock danger)... We should start with something substantial, not outdated OPINIONS!

BTW: I don't see the need for a separate thread, (I thought this was about HEAT SOURCES!)

No this thread is about whether and how to keep reptiles with a basking spot not what the source of a basking spot is it one is provided. Until you mentioned heat rocks no one had discussed heat sources so yes I think this is a separate discussion.

No need to divert the discussion away from what was being discussed here which as I say was about the merits of basking spots or not.

I know from many of your other replies you like to be deliberately antagonistic but please don't ruin threads that have been so interesting. Start your own thread and troll on that all you want.

[jjhill001]

No this thread is about whether and how to keep reptiles with a basking spot not what the source of a basking spot is it one is provided. Until you mentioned heat rocks no one had discussed heat sources so yes I think this is a separate discussion.

No need to divert the discussion away from what was being discussed here which as I say was about the merits of basking spots or not.

I know from many of your other replies you like to be deliberately antagonistic but please don't ruin threads that have been so interesting. Start your own thread and troll on that all you want.

I think the heat source is at least relevant. Considering the entire discussion is heat based. I however don't understand Doug's overaggressive and dismissive method of conveying his information.

[dannybgoode]

I think the heat source is at least relevant. Considering the entire discussion is heat based. I however don't understand Doug's overaggressive and dismissive method of conveying his information.

Perhaps but then we are into the realms of the merits of the various heat sources (radiant, mats, visible light and non visible light bulbs etc) which is a topic in itself. More than happy to diverge into these areas if that's the consensus.

[jjhill001]

Perhaps but then we are into the realms of the merits of the various heat sources (radiant, mats, visible light and non visible light bulbs etc) which is a topic in itself. More than happy to diverge into these areas if that's the consensus.

Lol, sure lets discuss that!

I think that debate is easy to solve.

Above or below: how thick and what kind of substrate do you have? Very thick, dirt type: Below isn't penetrating it above is the best decision. Relatively thin with comparatively good airflow : Below.

Which type? Above, Radiant, Lightless Bulb, Visible light bulb in that order. Below: Heat pad.

Curve ball: Ambient heat, as discussed previously.

Above method pros: Definitely far and away the most natural.

-Radiant: More spread out, able to adapt to various styles easily including the "sorta ambient" method that jjhill001 the reptile keeping god uses (lol JK but this would be my preferred method). Also is very low profile in terms of added height.

-Lightless Bulb IE Ceramic Heat Emitter: Basically a cheaper version of a radiant heat emitter, much more direct however. Able to pair with a light fixture that produces limited heat that can be on a timer meaning you won't lose heat when the lights go out. Con: the large fixtures needed to spread out the heat are quite tall, almost 5-6 inches, screwing up jjhill001's plan for a taller terrarium IE the stand he's made specifically with room for a 2nd cage.

-Lighted bulb: Natural for sure, however unable to produce heat at night, and a similar effect can be achieved with CHE paired with a light fixture. Pro: cost effective compared to the previously mentioned method which requires two fixtures.

Below method pros: Easy to use, much easier to control.

Heat Pad: various sizes available, helps the "belly heat" people sleep at night. Very easily paired with a thermostat compared to other methods, actually affects ambient heat compared to any other below method. Cons: Has a chance for burning if it screws up, can't penetrate thick substrate.

Heat Rock: Will literally cook your reptile to death 100% of the time. Pet stores sell them so you'll kill your pet and have to buy a new one.

JK on the last one, just picking on Dave a bit lol.

That is at least my opinion on the heating methods available and I think all have their place to be fair although I didn't consider heat tape, back heat or other such things and didn't honestly consider heat rocks. The ideas of heat with snakes are incredibly debatable with enormous amounts of room for debate, strategy differences and interesting information available to people.

If anyone does anything considered weird involving heat with their snakes I encourage sharing.

[dannybgoode]

You miss one interesting benefit of lightbulbs. They output more IR-A than a che which outputs almost exclusively IR-C.

Studies show IR-A penetrates deeper into muscle so is more effective at warming reptiles - particularly important for dinural species who like to get up and on it in the day.

Using my method of heating (ambient room to 22c ish) I can use lightbulbs during the day and then off at night although for my snakes I'm currently using Che's. I may swap to bulbs though over time for the reason.

I have a deep hatred of heat mats and they would be ineffective in my vivs anyway give the depth of substrate.

Heat rocks regardless of modernity are not something I'd use. All the disadvantages of mats (little use in raising ambient temperature etc) with the added dangers already discussed.

[RAD House]

Jesus, heat rocks. How are we not past this? They are so hated for so many very good reasons. As someone already mentioned they are the perfect design to allow your animal to overheat due to heat blocking, which I can only assume you have not looked into Doug. Unlike a heat pad there is no where for the heat from the element to escape to which can lead to an unsafe build up of heat. Another major design flaw is that they look like a rock, which means different material thicknesses. Even if you control the heat if the product with a thermostat there is little guarantee the entire heat surface is the same temperature. At the end of the day all heating elements should be controlled by a thermostat, and even this does not make a heat rock safe so they should not be used. There is a huge difference in being overprotective of a pet and giving them a product that is a known danger to them.

[jjhill001]

You miss one interesting benefit of lightbulbs. They output more IR-A than a che which outputs almost exclusively IR-C.

Studies show IR-A penetrates deeper into muscle so is more effective at warming reptiles - particularly important for dinural species who like to get up and on it in the day.

Using my method of heating (ambient room to 22c ish) I can use lightbulbs during the day and then off at night although for my snakes I'm currently using Che's. I may swap to bulbs though over time for the reason.

I have a deep hatred of heat mats and they would be ineffective in my vivs anyway give the depth of substrate.

Heat rocks regardless of modernity are not something I'd use. All the disadvantages of mats (little use in raising ambient temperature etc) with the added dangers already discussed.

Substrate depth is a challenge I had to overcome with my most recent setup and ended up going with a uvb bulb hood combined with a CHE.

I just finished it and I'm excited to post it later this weekend.

[TRD]

Bottom line; snakes need heat to be fully healthy (metabolic processes, immune system). Providing a cold blooded animal with only ambient temperature is not sufficient, they may survive at such temperature, but it suboptimal and can lead to long term problems. They need to be able to raise their temperatures to what they require, I see no reason not to provide that to them unless your electricity bill is more important than your animal's wellbeing. There is literally tons of info on why reptiles bask and thermoregulate, not sure why it is being questioned now. I think we are beyond that and actually venturing into not only providing the right basking temperatures, but also the right type and intensity of light.

Ps. A heat rock is still the same as it always was; a metal heat pipe in a epoxy "rock". If the device fails for whatever reason your reptile will burn for it as these devices have the potential to get insanely hot and are in direct contact with the reptile. That's why they are unsafe, regardless if you used one or several over many years without issues. It is not as if all will fail or all have a bad design, it is just more common than with other sources. If you like to use them, good for you, but don't expect empathy from any reptile owner in case you come home to a snake with 3rd degree burns over his body... that's all.

[Doug 351]

Well, I don't know about cheap, defective pet rocks. I'll have to admit, it's not the best thing to use, and I'm glad to see all the better alternatives being discussed now.

I should mention a few things about my heat rock. It wasn't one of the first generation ones. It wasn't cheap. It has a thermostat on the cord. It's a Zoo Med brand, and they usually make pretty good stuff.

I didn't get it for a snake, I got iy for a green iguana, that loved it. Used to sleep on it. I keep it turned down pretty low. A lot of times, I keep some substrate on top. (Never did with the iguana, they're too messy, just newspaper, and had to wash the rock a few times!)

Anyway, to kinda go back to what I touched on early in this thread, iguanas are tropical critters, he was on that rock all the time, my snake is a native, temperate critter, and rarely feels the need for extra heat.

So...it's totally possible to house temperate snakes without heat sources, but probably better to have them should they want them. Tropical snakes, it's probably a must, and the best heat source!

[chairman]

Bottom line; snakes need heat to be fully healthy (metabolic processes, immune system). Providing a cold blooded animal with only ambient temperature is not sufficient, they may survive at such temperature, but it suboptimal and can lead to long term problems. They need to be able to raise their temperatures to what they require, I see no reason not to provide that to them unless your electricity bill is more important than your animal's wellbeing. There is literally tons of info on why reptiles bask and thermoregulate, not sure why it is being questioned now. I think we are beyond that and actually venturing into not only providing the right basking temperatures, but also the right type and intensity of light.

I believe that the goal is not to keep the snakes at "ambient" temperatures, but at the snake's ideal body temperature. This, of course, assumes that snakes thermoregulate for the express purpose of maintaining a constant internal body temperature. If snakes truly do attempt to change their body temperature for some purpose, say deliberately adjusting their metabolism (as some varanids have been found to do), then there is no ideal body temperature and failing to provide a gradient is suboptimal.

[dannybgoode]

If snakes truly do attempt to change their body temperature for some purpose, say deliberately adjusting their metabolism (as some varanids have been found to do), then there is no ideal body temperature and failing to provide a gradient is suboptimal.

And this right here is the million dollar question. On the basis we simply don't know I'd rather err on the side they vary their body temperature (and bear in mind we may be looking at only a fraction of a degree maybe more) I'll give mine the choice.

*If* there were robust research to show all this moving around from warm to for was to maintain a set temperature I may reconsider. The difficulty then would be does every snake have the same requirement and that I doubt very much - even across species from a similar location.

[TRD]

So...it's totally possible to house temperate snakes without heat sources, but probably better to have them should they want them. Tropical snakes, it's probably a must, and the best heat source!

I'm in a temperate climate and measure ground temperatures of over 50C here in sunshine, so I doubt that (no, i'm not in the Netherlands but in CEE)

[dannybgoode]

I'm in a temperate climate and measure ground temperatures of over 50C here in sunshine, so I doubt that (no, i'm not in the Netherlands but in CEE)

Exactly a point I made earlier in the thread. My t lepidus in even in his outdoor enclosure regularly gets a ground temp 35c+ when the air temp is only 23-25. As we hit the peak later this month and early August the ground temp will regularly exceed 40+. I'll do some regular measuring to monitor exactly what he is getting.

[TRD]

The only reason people don't give the right surface temperatures in captivity is because it's difficult and dangerous to provide such temps in a confined space. The space has to be quite a bit bigger than what is usually recommended on minimal size, and you need controllable ventilation and outside ambient temperature to keep temps inside to viv under control. It's far easier to give a lower temperature that they can use for a longer time instead of a true hotspot that they can use for 20 minutes. Captivity has it's limits in what can be reproduced in a practical sense.

[EL Ziggy]

Very informative thread. Lots of great points being made. Thanks for the lessons all!

[jjhill001]

I believe that the goal is not to keep the snakes at "ambient" temperatures, but at the snake's ideal body temperature.

Exactly, we're not talking ambient room temperature, typically those are much too cool for a reptile. You still have to maintain control over your the temperatures for the method to be effective.

[jjhill001]

Even with more stringent quality controls and safety their very design encourages a reptile to sit on or wrap round them which increases the chance of thermal blocking.

Anyway, I'm reluctant to comment further on this thread as it's been a really interesting debate and I don't want to pollute it and take too far off topic. With this in mind Doug perhaps start at new thread specifically on heat rocks and we can discuss there.

Posted my new setup in the colubrid forum Danny!

[Aaron_S]

LOL! I have one....it's about as hot as a lap dog... and no problems in years and years.

NOW....my point is...YES!!! They used to be crap....but!!!!! Before we even have a RIDICULOUS conversation on something that DOESN'T EXSIST...( heat rock danger)... We should start with something substantial, not outdated OPINIONS!

BTW: I don't see the need for a separate thread, (I thought this was about HEAT SOURCES!)

Sorry Doug but a single piece of anecdotal evidence will not work here. A single person texting in their car while driving isn't proof that it doesn't kill/cause accidents.

Well, I don't know about cheap, defective pet rocks. I'll have to admit, it's not the best thing to use, and I'm glad to see all the better alternatives being discussed now.

I should mention a few things about my heat rock. It wasn't one of the first generation ones. It wasn't cheap. It has a thermostat on the cord. It's a Zoo Med brand, and they usually make pretty good stuff.

I didn't get it for a snake, I got iy for a green iguana, that loved it. Used to sleep on it. I keep it turned down pretty low. A lot of times, I keep some substrate on top. (Never did with the iguana, they're too messy, just newspaper, and had to wash the rock a few times!)

Anyway, to kinda go back to what I touched on early in this thread, iguanas are tropical critters, he was on that rock all the time, my snake is a native, temperate critter, and rarely feels the need for extra heat.

So...it's totally possible to house temperate snakes without heat sources, but probably better to have them should they want them. Tropical snakes, it's probably a must, and the best heat source!

You say you don't want oudated opinions but this seems to be the product you're talking about and Zoo Med has updated their site/product information since you last looked (if you ever did).

https://zoomed.com/repticare-rock-heater/

I'll break down the points:

1. Not to be used a sole heat source for tropical animals. (Which you did and is your current argument)

2. Do not bury it in anything. (You did this too.)

3. Has a rheostat not a thermostat built in. (Different tools and the rheostat means you have to monitor the temperature of it constantly and adjust the dial.)

4. If your animal is lying on it constantly it's too cold. (Your iguana did this according to you which means your animal was living in substandard care. I know you didn't know about it and I would guess would have changed had you known) However, the most important about this is you didn't try to learn or look for new information. You have an outdated opinion which in an above quote you railed against anyone else having.

5. This essentially is an expensive piece of decor. Sssnakess already suggested it's what they are good for.

[TRD]

I believe that the goal is not to keep the snakes at "ambient" temperatures, but at the snake's ideal body temperature. This, of course, assumes that snakes thermoregulate for the express purpose of maintaining a constant internal body temperature. If snakes truly do attempt to change their body temperature for some purpose, say deliberately adjusting their metabolism (as some varanids have been found to do), then there is no ideal body temperature and failing to provide a gradient is suboptimal.

If you have an animal that controls his internal processes by thermoregulating, providing a constant temperature could just as well place his body in an overdrive mode, though snakes also have protection against extreme heat and can go dormant under that condition similarly to being too cold.

We know these animals yhermoregulate in the wild, I see no reason why we should force something else upon them simply because we can.

That's my opinion on the matter

[chairman]

If you have an animal that controls his internal processes by thermoregulating, providing a constant temperature could just as well place his body in an overdrive mode, though snakes also have protection against extreme heat and can go dormant under that condition similarly to being too cold.

We know these animals yhermoregulate in the wild, I see no reason why we should force something else upon them simply because we can.

That's my opinion on the matter

It may be true that a single temperature approach is only beneficial to the people that keep snakes; it could be, as you suggest, bad for the snakes.

But just because an animal exhibits a behavior in the wild or experiences a stimuli in the wild doesn't mean that our captives benefit from the experience. Most wild snakes that I find have battle scars; I'm not going to expose my captives to a bird or cat to let it experience surviving a predator. Wild snakes experience extreme droughts that push the snakes to the brink of death (and sometimes over the brink); I'm not going to deprive my snakes of water or humidity.

You have certainly not advocated for mistreating snakes because nature mistreated them. I'm not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is that maybe thermoregulation is a response to a hostile environment and that some species may benefit from living in one stable temperature.

The theory is certainly testable in a humane manner. Set up snakes in standard habitats and keep a thermal camera focused on the cages 24 hours a day for weeks or months. See what happens with the body temperature of the snakes. Are they attempting to replicate homeostasis or do they vary their temperatures on purpose?

[jjhill001]

If you have an animal that controls his internal processes by thermoregulating, providing a constant temperature could just as well place his body in an overdrive mode, though snakes also have protection against extreme heat and can go dormant under that condition similarly to being too cold.

We know these animals yhermoregulate in the wild, I see no reason why we should force something else upon them simply because we can.

That's my opinion on the matter

A snake doesn't WANT to thermoregulate, a snake HAS to thermoregulate. I think that the amount of breeders using this method and the sheer number of animals that have been raised with controlled ambient temperatures proves, at least to me that a snake doesn't need to thermoregulate.

Thermoregulation is something that keepers force on their snakes would be my counter point to your last statement. The keeper is in control of everything. Literally every aspect of their care is forced upon them by us.

[TRD]

Reptiles, or snakes in particular, also thermoregulate to control their digestion and conserve energy in the wild. I don't agree with the want/has to statement due to that, they 'choose to' is probably closer to reality.

It would be an interesting experiment to do, but you need a controlled environment and a medical study behind that so that long terms effects can be established. Going by anecdotal evidence because some people use this method, doesn't guarantee it is healthy for the animal. (most) Snakes can survive their entire live in sub optimal conditions, they are extremely hardy. Actually, most living organisms can.

I for one would rather go with scientific data on this subject before coming to any conclusion here. In the meantime I would continue to replicate their natural environment as close as possible.

[dannybgoode]

A snake doesn't WANT to thermoregulate, a snake HAS to thermoregulate. I think that the amount of breeders using this method and the sheer number of animals that have been raised with controlled ambient temperatures proves, at least to me that a snake doesn't need to thermoregulate.

Thermoregulation is something that keepers force on their snakes would be my counter point to your last statement. The keeper is in control of everything. Literally every aspect of their care is forced upon them by us.

I refer to my earlier point about breeding. Breeding success in its own is no evidence of good husbandry be it snakes, dogs, rabbits whatever.

Snakes have evolved over millions of years to thermoregulate so why should we decide to override this evolutionary trait?

[jjhill001]

I refer to my earlier point about breeding. Breeding success in its own is no evidence of good husbandry be it snakes, dogs, rabbits whatever.

Snakes have evolved over millions of years to thermoregulate so why should we decide to override this evolutionary trait?

I think that thermoregulation is an adapted behavior in order to survive it's environment.

When we rank the things that are important to a snake, the #1 is security.

Let's do a thought experiment. Let's say we set up a cage, this cage is going to have a substrate that it can't burrow in or get under. The only things in the cage are 1 hide box and a water bowl. We place the hide box anywhere in that cage, hot spot, just warm side, cool side. Lets say our hotspot is on the higher end of things 90F and the cool side furthest from the heat is suboptimal cool temperature of 74F.

If we place the hide box on the cool side I would bet that snake will spend the majority of it's time in sub-optimal temperatures, if we place the hide over the hot spot, the snake will likely spend the majority of it's time there, 90F is also a sub-optimal temp for a snake to spend most of it's time at.

Now lets extrapolate this out to one of the most common setups we see. Hot side, cold side, 2 hides, one over the hot side and one over the cool side. In this very common type of setup, what we are doing is essentially forcing the snake to choose between two sub-optimal temperatures.

A snake is an ambush predator, even more so the boas and pythons, the snake doesn't WANT to move around all the time. Moving puts the snake at risk of predation and giving away it's spot to prey items. This isn't to say they should not be given plenty of room, as I feel that they will still explore of their own accord as I've seen in my snakes.

Particularly the arboreal tropical snakes never bask, its just hot as heck during the day, they wait it out, then at night when it's closer to 76-80 degrees do they begin moving about.

A carpet python which is a very interesting species because they extend through just about every climate that Australia has to offer except for the desert areas, the range map wraps around the entire continent almost lol. The climate extends from almost Mediterranean in Perth and Cairns which are in the South Western and North Eastern areas of Australia (Never too cool lows, never too hot highs) to something more akin to those Alberta Bull Snakes from earlier which is what the Melbourne animals go through. I would bet, and we'd need a few Australian field herpers to weigh in. But I'd bet that it's easier to find Carpet Pythons in the north and south west in the morning and evenings, I bet the Melbourne animals are easier to find out basking in the day time because it gets so cold there.

The breeder who brought this to my attention's specialty was the Morelia group of snakes to include the Diamond Pythons. It just works on too many different species of snakes, across too many different continents, biomes, climates and types to not give at least some credence to the theory.

[TRD]

There is of course sense in what your saying, but there are too many unknowns to advocate it with a good enough degree of certainty;

We do not understand to full biological processes attached to basking / thermoregulating. We don't know if there's a purpose for them bringing their body temperatures above optimal for short times, or below optimal, without medical research into that area. We do know they benefit from certain types of radiation (UVA/B, IR-A, B, C) and particularly the IR range cannot be given without creating a hot zone. Heat from IR is used for a lot of metabolic processes and support the immune system. Now in a sterile environment this could be less of an issue, but it doesn't advocate good health

We do not know the optimal body temperature for x species of reptiles, and even if we do know this temperature, how do we know we are giving the right temperature without inserting some sort of probe into the reptile, after all they can't regulate their own if we give them 1 temperature to deal with

It is inherit behavior of the reptile to bask and cool down, this is their lifestyle, be it forced upon them, by choice, or whatever reason. They have been doing so successfully for a very very long time. If it would of been a sub-optimal method for their biology, they would of long ago evolved into warm blooded animals or became extinct as a result. Yet they thrive and do just fine with this method


Overall the research and evidences that this is a proper way to keep your animals is not there. If one would research it and come with the proper evidences to substantiate this way of keeping, then sure. People keep water monitors in a rack, and they do fine in a rack too. Is it OK? People give supplements containing D3 for animals that need UV light so that they do not need to give UV light, again the animal will do fine, but it's not OK. I'm very skeptic on methods that just rub me the wrong way because my common sense is screaming inside of me. It's just how I am build I guess, so I'm pretty skeptic of this because of that. I just hope people don't take it as hard headed or offensive, I usually seem to get that :D

[jjhill001]

There is of course sense in what your saying, but there are too many unknowns to advocate it with a good enough degree of certainty;

We do not understand to full biological processes attached to basking / thermoregulating. We don't know if there's a purpose for them bringing their body temperatures above optimal for short times, or below optimal, without medical research into that area. We do know they benefit from certain types of radiation (UVA/B, IR-A, B, C) and particularly the IR range cannot be given without creating a hot zone. Heat from IR is used for a lot of metabolic processes and support the immune system. Now in a sterile environment this could be less of an issue, but it doesn't advocate good health

We do not know the optimal body temperature for x species of reptiles, and even if we do know this temperature, how do we know we are giving the right temperature without inserting some sort of probe into the reptile, after all they can't regulate their own if we give them 1 temperature to deal with

It is inherit behavior of the reptile to bask and cool down, this is their lifestyle, be it forced upon them, by choice, or whatever reason. They have been doing so successfully for a very very long time. If it would of been a sub-optimal method for their biology, they would of long ago evolved into warm blooded animals or became extinct as a result. Yet they thrive and do just fine with this method


Overall the research and evidences that this is a proper way to keep your animals is not there. If one would research it and come with the proper evidences to substantiate this way of keeping, then sure. People keep water monitors in a rack, and they do fine in a rack too. Is it OK? People give supplements containing D3 for animals that need UV light so that they do not need to give UV light, again the animal will do fine, but it's not OK. I'm very skeptic on methods that just rub me the wrong way because my common sense is screaming inside of me. It's just how I am build I guess, so I'm pretty skeptic of this because of that. I just hope people don't take it as hard headed or offensive, I usually seem to get that :D

I encourage that kind of debate, I do not take offense to it at all so don't worry about that. I'll agree that it seemed crazy to me as well and I would continue to have the same reaction if I hadn't had the results I've had and if I hadn't seen the results of others. As I said before the only reason there isn't a surefire answer to this is that biologists don't give two craps about captive snake husbandry. All it would take to prove or disprove the theory would be to drop a temperature probe into a food item and actually measure the core body temperature of a snake throughout the week to figure out what's going on.

I would say to your first point, you're absolutely correct in that we aren't entirely sure about the exact processes. They have done the temperature probe thing with alligators back in 2003, a much "sexier" animal to study. Here is the abstract from that study:

Abstract:
Regulation of body temperature may increase fitness of animals by ensuring that biochemical and physiological processes proceed at an optimal rate. The validity of current methods of testing whether or not thermoregulation in reptiles occurs is often limited to very small species that have near zero heat capacity. The aim of this study was to develop a method that allows estimation of body temperature null distributions of large reptiles and to investigate seasonal thermoregulation in the American alligator (Alligator mississippiensis). Continuous body temperature records of wild alligators were obtained from implanted dataloggers in winter (n=7, mass range: 1.6-53.6 kg) and summer (n=7, mass range: 1.9-54.5 kg). Body temperature null distributions were calculated by randomising behavioural postures, thereby randomly altering relative animal surface areas exposed to different avenues of heat transfer. Core body temperatures were predicted by calculations of transient heat transfer by conduction and blood flow. Alligator body temperatures follow regular oscillations during the day. Occasionally, body temperature steadied during the day to fall within a relatively narrow range. Rather than indicating shuttling thermoregulation, however, this pattern could be predicted from random movements. Average daily body temperature increases with body mass in winter but not in summer. Daily amplitudes of body temperature decrease with increasing body mass in summer but not in winter. These patterns result from differential exposure to heat transfer mechanisms at different seasons. In summer, alligators are significantly cooler than predictions for a randomly moving animal, and the reverse is the case in winter. Theoretical predictions show, however, that alligators can be warmer in winter if they maximised their sun exposure. We concluded that alligators may not rely exclusively on regulation of body temperature but that they may also acclimatise biochemically to seasonally changing environmental conditions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12905121

What this study showed is that the core temperatures of the alligators fell within a narrow range. And the last sentence shows that alligators potentially do not entirely rely on external regulation of temperatures.

We know that snakes can do this as well, evidenced by various pythons who curl around their eggs which can increase the temperature with no external help. And also, and you can do this with a snake in a static ambient temperature with a temp gun if a snake is digesting a decent enough sized food item, the snake will actually get warmer because it's digesting that food item.

Does it perhaps lead us to the conclusion that maybe a snake's core temperature is more or less basically the same throughout the day, affected primarily by seemingly random movements? I'm not gonna say that it does, but it makes me think.

I've drawn the conclusion that snakes in the wild avoid the extremes of their native environments. Snakes in the wild shut down when exposed to constant highs, constant lows, very high humidity levels and very low humidity levels etc. Even snakes from more moderate climates such as the temperate North American species will change their behaviors to a more nocturnal, lifestyle when the temperatures get too hot.

I know there are people out there who constantly mist their tropical snakes, maintain very high humidity levels. With the lower temperatures this becomes unnecessary in order to maintain hydration levels because the snake isn't metabolizing water as fast. You get to essentially remove a variable that can cause problems. High humidity when combined with various temperatures can lead to scale rot, an over population of disease causing bacteria which lead to respiratory infections, all sorts of issues. Low humidity with high temperatures can cause dehydration issues etc.

For me the results have spoken for themselves.

To your last point and conclusion, what decides what is OK? We only have a few measurable factors as keepers in order to tell if a snake is in a good condition. Is a snake feeding, is it shedding properly, is it breeding, does it appear to be thriving, will it breed? That's essentially all we have. If someone hands you a snake that is raised with this method could you tell? I can tell if someone hands me a snake that has problems or is raised in sub-optimal conditions pretty easily, I imagine that you can too. I'm beginning to think that perhaps that the window of what people consider to considered optimal is a lot more narrow than what the snakes consider it to be.

There have been many, many studies conducted on wild reptiles. There have been precious few actual scientific studies done on captive reptiles and husbandry methods and the ones available are primarily in regards to disease and a few on UVB exposure. So when it comes to the research aspect of their care, I say there isn't much. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence based on the accounts of individual keepers, enough anecdotal evidence can be quite valuable and convincing. I find that people will only dismiss anecdotal evidence if it disagrees with what they already think. There isn't as much anecdotal evidence for this method, I believe because of the fierce backlash that is often received when it is discussed that people just kind of do their own thing and don't bother anyone about it. That said, I do thank you and others in this thread for not acting like children and just "screaming" the idea away as I've seen in the past.

Snake care over the hobby's brief history has evolved tremendously. Many care strategies that were once accepted as fact have been proven false, irrelevant or at worse dangerous. What I'm doing is unconventional I'll admit, but I feel as if my logic is sound and my results are my evidence for that.

Here are a few pictures of my snakes:

Dragon Armor Scales - Album on Imgur (http://imgur.com/gallery/Dwj1g)

Lucy dinner time and time outside.Â* - Album on Imgur (http://imgur.com/a/cG3tW)

Finally able to get some pics out in the sun.Â* - Album on Imgur (http://imgur.com/a/l8Ofa)

[akane]

I think the theory only works when we're talking snakes. Every other reptile "type" I think would have to be taken individually. Maybe there is a lizard number, a frog number, salamander, maybe this is something that is unique to snakes, who knows, it's incredibly interesting to be honest. We now have a report of someone doing something similar with tortoises in the thread. Could there be a "general acceptable temp" for each various family of reptiles? Honestly who knows. I'm gonna say probably not but who knows.

I think that there is less of a physiological difference between most snake species to other snake species, tortoise to other tortoise species than there is with say lizards, turtles, and salamanders. And perhaps that is what lends this method to those two types of reptiles best.

Overall I think it's really interesting.

My limited experience with lizards there is definitely no magic number to keep them all. I have crested geckos that would live in the upper levels of the cloud forest of new caledonia and are often kept unheated at room temp with breeding down to 68F and overheat easily so they are not kept over 80F with very rarely a basking spot. If used, relying on supplemented commercial diets has become more common, UV is often fluorescent lighting based instead of producing much heat. Having looked at native lizard species and biggest concentration seeming to be the hotter areas of the continent there are some truly diurnal desert dwellers that have a cool end in the 80s-90s during the day and basking spots over 100F. Many desert lizard species will be visible when snakes have sought shelter. The range is quite huge with lizards.


My captive keeping experience may have only reached it's first year but I wouldn't say all snakes only thermoregulate out of necessity. I see snake care rolled together like they are one species and often based on tropical or exotic species that are too busy avoiding heat or seeing little variation between day and night and I can understand some of the single temp rooms for large pythons and boas that I have seen people setup. They have limited basking and are probably quite content if they can maintain one ideal temp. Snakes are not one species though and I don't think just matching a temp and humidity ideal between species is enough difference in care for their difference in behavior and natural environment. For my North American natives I've had some that I switched from having a basking bulb to consistent heat with a fluorescent for lighting and despite being the same temperature all the time now they still go looking for the light when it comes on to find no increase in temp and return to hiding instead of laying out in the open like they used to. I have a corn that loves a lizard UV basking bulb and seeks it out beyond temps she will seek out from a CHE gradient. I tested the 2nd corn I now have and he also will seek out a basking bulb that is not UV but ignore the 24/7 che when the basking bulb goes off and simply go into shelter to wait for the next day instead.

It seems instinctual by some snakes to bask to the point I might consider it enrichment behavior and it certainly makes them more enjoyable to watch. Really all behaviors developed out of environmental need to survive but to not fulfill those behaviors has been seen more easily in mammals to cause various unhealthy changes in behavior despite removing the need for them. Maybe we can't compare the 2 but we have little research to prove either way so I'll go by what I see. I find my bulls are actually calmer and put on less of their defensive show when they get to go bask on a rock platform or area of warmed open dirt between decor. Contrary to the wild warm snakes being more aggressive than cold but these snakes are comfortable with me around and remain basking without caring what I'm doing compared to when they are actively moving about the cool end of the enclosure or getting protective inside a cool hide. When they aren't lazily basking you are far more likely to get bluffing strikes out of them.

On the other end, which shows species difference, my desert king responds to cooling events. Instead of giving him basking spots he comes out on "rain days" I mimic for the bioactive critters to stay alive or if I run 2 lights so one goes out and cools partially in the evening. His activity is limited to drinking, checking for rodents, and going back to shelter if kept at any one temp even on the low end of the suggested range for their health with no attempt to bask when temps are low but he becomes extremely active for hours even with lights still on if he has a hot and cool period. It is far more interesting to watch him explore all over the entire evening when he is kept warm during the day with a temp drop shortly before lights out than to try to keep him at one temp where he hides, drinks, checks for rodents, hides, and stops to eat quickly on feeding day. In his previous tank I actually didn't see him for a week at a time because he'd use burrowing instead of hides and I provided no "rain days" because it had no bioactive cleanup crew or temp changes so he probably grabbed some water nocturnally and occasionally you'd see his black head meant to blend in sticking out to check things from his burrow. The rodent disappeared off the feeding rock and sheds would appear about the time I'd start threatening to dig him out and I was keeping him cooler than I keep his daytime now. There was just no change between day and night and no other cooling events so instinctually he never came out into the heat during lights on or for long periods even if it wasn't as hot.

I love watching the behaviors they display when you mimic parts of the environment you can and I see no increased stress from doing so or decreased stress just keeping them at what is considered to be the ideal for them across the enclosure 24/7. I am talking about specific species though. I learned I wouldn't do it with a blood python. I'd rather have a fully controlled specific room that does not have a gradient, basking, or cooling because they do not seem to respond with anywhere near the same strength to any of those things except to become reactive at higher temps. They don't seek changing conditions with the same vigor and seem quite content to sit, waiting for something like prey, at a set temp and humidity all the time. It is such different behavior and responses between species evolved in such different environments that I would no longer apply the same type of husbandry because, ignoring enjoyment of behavior displays, it did not even result in equally healthy snakes.

[Doug 351]

Sorry Doug but a single piece of anecdotal evidence will not work here. A single person texting in their car while driving isn't proof that it doesn't kill/cause accidents.



You say you don't want oudated opinions but this seems to be the product you're talking about and Zoo Med has updated their site/product information since you last looked (if you ever did).

https://zoomed.com/repticare-rock-heater/

I'll break down the points:

1. Not to be used a sole heat source for tropical animals. (Which you did and is your current argument)

2. Do not bury it in anything. (You did this too.)

3. Has a rheostat not a thermostat built in. (Different tools and the rheostat means you have to monitor the temperature of it constantly and adjust the dial.)

4. If your animal is lying on it constantly it's too cold. (Your iguana did this according to you which means your animal was living in substandard care. I know you didn't know about it and I would guess would have changed had you known) However, the most important about this is you didn't try to learn or look for new information. You have an outdated opinion which in an above quote you railed against anyone else having.

5. This essentially is an expensive piece of decor. Sssnakess already suggested it's what they are good for.

OK...FIRST.. I don't want to be viewed as the anti- conservative reptile owner.

I have and DO conceed reptile rocks are not the way to go..

HOWEVER, I have NOT..... PROBABLY WILL NOT SEE POSITIVE PROOF OF ANIMAL INJURY IN THE LAST 20 YEARS!

Get you..I'm not advocating them, but I just don't think thei're so bad!

BTW: " Sleeping on it. . not only connects "constantly" with most "normal" minds... BUT!!!!! I ONLY SAID HE SLEPT ON IT ... NOT HOW OFTEN!

And Mr.Internet wiseguy....HONESTLY. ..When did you go to your dishwashers website?

WTF... What have you EVER had that NEVER GAVE YOU A PROBLEM,... Soooo....you went on line and RESEARCHED?

If ever there was.....this is a C'MON MAN!!!! Moment.

[Scubadiver59]

I'm not getting into this argument, per se, but I will post a third-hand view: ViperKeeper, that crusty, venerate, "hot" snake keeper extraordinaire, has used them (I'm sure), may use them (I'm not sure) but he never had any snakes die because of using them (according to him). If I can find the video he stated this in, I'll post its link.

OK...FIRST.. I don't want to be viewed as the anti- conservative reptile owner.

I have and DO conceed reptile rocks are not the way to go..

HOWEVER, I have NOT..... PROBABLY WILL NOT SEE POSITIVE PROOF OF ANIMAL INJURY IN THE LAST 20 YEARS!

Get you..I'm not advocating them, but I just don't think thei're so bad!

BTW: " Sleeping on it. . not only connects "constantly" with most "normal" minds... BUT!!!!! I ONLY SAID HE SLEPT ON IT ... NOT HOW OFTEN!

And Mr.Internet wiseguy....HONESTLY. ..When did you go to your dishwashers website?

WTF... What have you EVER had that NEVER GAVE YOU A PROBLEM,... Soooo....you went on line and RESEARCHED?

If ever there was.....this is a C'MON MAN!!!! Moment.

[jjhill001]

My limited experience with lizards there is definitely no magic number to keep them all. I have crested geckos that would live in the upper levels of the cloud forest of new caledonia and are often kept unheated at room temp with breeding down to 68F and overheat easily so they are not kept over 80F with very rarely a basking spot. If used, relying on supplemented commercial diets has become more common, UV is often fluorescent lighting based instead of producing much heat. Having looked at native lizard species and biggest concentration seeming to be the hotter areas of the continent there are some truly diurnal desert dwellers that have a cool end in the 80s-90s during the day and basking spots over 100F. Many desert lizard species will be visible when snakes have sought shelter. The range is quite huge with lizards.


My captive keeping experience may have only reached it's first year but I wouldn't say all snakes only thermoregulate out of necessity. I see snake care rolled together like they are one species and often based on tropical or exotic species that are too busy avoiding heat or seeing little variation between day and night and I can understand some of the single temp rooms for large pythons and boas that I have seen people setup. They have limited basking and are probably quite content if they can maintain one ideal temp. Snakes are not one species though and I don't think just matching a temp and humidity ideal between species is enough difference in care for their difference in behavior and natural environment. For my North American natives I've had some that I switched from having a basking bulb to consistent heat with a fluorescent for lighting and despite being the same temperature all the time now they still go looking for the light when it comes on to find no increase in temp and return to hiding instead of laying out in the open like they used to. I have a corn that loves a lizard UV basking bulb and seeks it out beyond temps she will seek out from a CHE gradient. I tested the 2nd corn I now have and he also will seek out a basking bulb that is not UV but ignore the 24/7 che when the basking bulb goes off and simply go into shelter to wait for the next day instead.

It seems instinctual by some snakes to bask to the point I might consider it enrichment behavior and it certainly makes them more enjoyable to watch. Really all behaviors developed out of environmental need to survive but to not fulfill those behaviors has been seen more easily in mammals to cause various unhealthy changes in behavior despite removing the need for them. Maybe we can't compare the 2 but we have little research to prove either way so I'll go by what I see. I find my bulls are actually calmer and put on less of their defensive show when they get to go bask on a rock platform or area of warmed open dirt between decor. Contrary to the wild warm snakes being more aggressive than cold but these snakes are comfortable with me around and remain basking without caring what I'm doing compared to when they are actively moving about the cool end of the enclosure or getting protective inside a cool hide. When they aren't lazily basking you are far more likely to get bluffing strikes out of them.

On the other end, which shows species difference, my desert king responds to cooling events. Instead of giving him basking spots he comes out on "rain days" I mimic for the bioactive critters to stay alive or if I run 2 lights so one goes out and cools partially in the evening. His activity is limited to drinking, checking for rodents, and going back to shelter if kept at any one temp even on the low end of the suggested range for their health with no attempt to bask when temps are low but he becomes extremely active for hours even with lights still on if he has a hot and cool period. It is far more interesting to watch him explore all over the entire evening when he is kept warm during the day with a temp drop shortly before lights out than to try to keep him at one temp where he hides, drinks, checks for rodents, hides, and stops to eat quickly on feeding day. In his previous tank I actually didn't see him for a week at a time because he'd use burrowing instead of hides and I provided no "rain days" because it had no bioactive cleanup crew or temp changes so he probably grabbed some water nocturnally and occasionally you'd see his black head meant to blend in sticking out to check things from his burrow. The rodent disappeared off the feeding rock and sheds would appear about the time I'd start threatening to dig him out and I was keeping him cooler than I keep his daytime now. There was just no change between day and night and no other cooling events so instinctually he never came out into the heat during lights on or for long periods even if it wasn't as hot.

I love watching the behaviors they display when you mimic parts of the environment you can and I see no increased stress from doing so or decreased stress just keeping them at what is considered to be the ideal for them across the enclosure 24/7. I am talking about specific species though. I learned I wouldn't do it with a blood python. I'd rather have a fully controlled specific room that does not have a gradient, basking, or cooling because they do not seem to respond with anywhere near the same strength to any of those things except to become reactive at higher temps. They don't seek changing conditions with the same vigor and seem quite content to sit, waiting for something like prey, at a set temp and humidity all the time. It is such different behavior and responses between species evolved in such different environments that I would no longer apply the same type of husbandry because, ignoring enjoyment of behavior displays, it did not even result in equally healthy snakes.

Very interesting information.

I think that when it comes to lizards there are just so many more physiological differences between the various species that it would make sense that a method like this would not work. I think that the difference between any random 5 snake species, for example ball python, a bull snake, a garter snake, a rosy boa and a king snake are much more similar to each other than say a leopard gecko, a bearded dragon, an iguana, a blue tongue skink and a fence lizard if that makes sense.

I've recently moved one of my snakes into a large bioactive enclosure with several inches of substrate (you can see it in the colubrid forum). It only happened 2 days ago and I haven't seen her much although she seems to be switching between the crevices under the background, burrowing and the hide that is behind the wood at the top. I recently discovered after changing the water bowl today that she burrowed up under it a bit which is kind of neat as I was unsure of how she would utilize the extra burrowing room. The terra firma substrate I'm using claims to hold burrows very well so it was nice to see this in action.

Like I said in the first post, I've only adapted it sort of in a middling way. No hot spot, tighter gradient, less emphasis on humidity. If someone goes full bore into it they have to understand the whole concept in it's entirety and have a great measure of control which in individual cages in a house that changes temperature relatively easily from night to day isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to accomplish.

Before I had the deep substrate and natural setup I had more control via relatively easy, wide spread heat pads set to around 83 just to have enough "umph" to get up through the substrate. The overall degree swing in the terrarium was always within 3-4 degrees from 78-81F ish. If my house gets a little cooler at night then it'll obviously be a little cooler and if the house bumps up to 83 in the summer then they just have to deal with that along with me because unless we're approaching 86+ plus mark in the house I'm not turning on the air conditioner, it's only done that a few times like once when someone burned food and windows had to be opened in the middle of the day, stuff like that. With the lower temp method (this is more important for tropical snakes) you can't really have the obnoxious high humidity that some keepers use, those have to be lower as well or else problems could arise. And really that's my only concern as I have to keep the bugs and plant relatively hydrated.

My female is quite bold and would lay out in the open more and more as feeding day approached (main reason she got the sweet home), my male would hide away occasionally peaking his head out to see what's going on, it being a special occasion for him to venture out and show off his good looks. The snakes I've kept with hot spots, whether on natural substrate (never the bioactive super thick stuff) paper, plain, decorated, whatever. I honestly didn't see them often and I had WAY more time to watch them back then than I do now. With these snakes I've actually noticed personalities, I've noticed how, in particular my female is incredibly aware of what's going on out side the glass, always having an eye on me hoping for food, watching me fold laundry, whatever.

I've had to adapt with this new bioactive thing, setting up a CHE with a very wide dome that I hope will help spread the heat out a bit over a larger surface area similar to my idea of the large surface area heat pad. The cage is massive compared to her previous digs, her and Ricky were stuck in 10 gallons (I know, I know I didn't like it either but it took me longer to gather everything and finish it as mid project I had a layoff so progress was behind schedule). There are WAY more places to hide in this large enclosure than there was in the old cage, essentially the entire substrate is a hide now lol. I am curious to see if she takes advantage of the heat from above when it cools down and it's on more.

She's only been in there a few days and like all snakes she's going through an acclimation period so I'm not making any rash judgments that she's gonna stop coming out to show off for good. The way I kept my temperatures in the past didn't seem to bother her at all. And because the two snakes are the same same species, were previously being kept in the exact same way I'm chalking Ricky's cautious behavior up to personality difference.

She's a savage feeder, I don't think I'm gonna need any sort of feeding rock. I think when she smells that first mouse in a few days that she'll come flying out of wherever she happens to be hiding to see what's going on. I hope... lol.

I'm gonna monitor her behavior over the coming weeks and report back on it in the colubrid section either way.

I appreciate you sharing your experiences here it's quite interesting the differences you saw with your snakes in regards to hot spots. If you have any advice for the bioactive setup in general I'd appreciate any you have down in my thread about my setup. I've been reading and studying about it for years but as we all know, knowing how something should be and making it that way can be two entirely different things.

[bigsnakegirl785]

So I keep seeing it mentioned that x reptile keeps its body core temperature within a certain range, so my question is: can a reptile maintain that range when kept at one temperature? Reptiles may not make heat to the extent we do, but they do create their own body heat to a certain degree, especially right after eating. Just because you're maintaining temperatures at what has been observed as the average core temperature, doesn't mean you're keeping your animals' core temperatures within the appropriate range.

[RAD House]

So I keep seeing it mentioned that x reptile keeps its body core temperature within a certain range, so my question is: can a reptile maintain that range when kept at one temperature? Reptiles may not make heat to the extent we do, but they do create their own body heat to a certain degree, especially right after eating. Just because you're maintaining temperatures at what has been observed as the average core temperature, doesn't mean you're keeping your animals' core temperatures within the appropriate range.

I think they were saying that reptiles keep their core temps at a certain temp, around 80 degrees if i remember correctly, not a range. Yes keeping an animal in ambient temperatures at this temp will mean the core temp will be similar is an exothermic animal. Any heat they produce themselves is more due to muscle movement, is a waste of energy, and fairly minimal.

[Doug 351]

Well, y'all can thank me now. If I hadn't stirred the pot, this would have died a very boring thread.

And I would like to thank all the qualified, articulate members who have responded. This thread should be very helpful to anyone who views it.

I still ain't skeered of my heat rock!!!!

[bigsnakegirl785]

I think they were saying that reptiles keep their core temps at a certain temp, around 80 degrees if i remember correctly, not a range. Yes keeping an animal in ambient temperatures at this temp will mean the core temp will be similar is an exothermic animal. Any heat they produce themselves is more due to muscle movement, is a waste of energy, and fairly minimal.

After eating, their body temp can rise by several degrees, this is why many times a snake will avoid the heat right after eating. I wouldn't call that minimal. (If you've ever picked up a freshly-fed snake, you'll find their belly where the bulge is will feel quite a lot warmer than the rest of their body.)

[Scubadiver59]

The same thing happens to me when I eat...would you like to feel my belly too? :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea7XIUuj7ag

After eating, their body temp can rise by several degrees, this is why many times a snake will avoid the heat right after eating. I wouldn't call that minimal. (If you've ever picked up a freshly-fed snake, you'll find their belly where the bulge is will feel quite a lot warmer than the rest of their body.)

[RAD House]

After eating, their body temp can rise by several degrees, this is why many times a snake will avoid the heat right after eating. I wouldn't call that minimal. (If you've ever picked up a freshly-fed snake, you'll find their belly where the bulge is will feel quite a lot warmer than the rest of their body.)

That would suggest they are endothermic, which goes against everything I know about reptiles. I would like to see where you read about that.

[bigsnakegirl785]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14718501

[Scubadiver59]

Some light reading for you...just an abstract of a full paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14718501), but interesting nonetheless:

"...We assessed heat production, at a constant environmental temperature, by taking infrared (IR) images of snakes during fasting and after being fed meals varying from 10% to 50% of their own body masses. Our results show clearly that digesting rattlesnakes have significantly increased body temperatures, even when precluded from adjusting their thermoregulatory behavior. The feeding-derived thermogenesis caused the surface body temperature of rattlesnakes to increase by 0.9-1.2 degrees C, a temperature change that will significantly affect digestive performance. The alterations in body temperature following feeding correlated closely with the temporal profile of changes in post-prandial metabolism. Moreover, the magnitude of the thermogenesis was greater for snakes fed large meals, as was the corresponding metabolic response. Since IR imaging only assesses surface temperatures, the magnitude of the thermogenesis and the changes in deep core temperature could be even more pronounced than is reported here."

The temperature increase may seem minuscule, but for a snake, it is probably significant, and it adds credence to some of the sites that state that snakes will forego heading for the hot hide for a time just after eating, but will eventually head there later.

That would suggest they are endothermic, which goes against everything I know about reptiles. I would like to see where you read about that.

[Scubadiver59]

Darn you BSG...you "scooped" me by a mere 0.00000000001 seconds!!!!! :P

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14718501

[Doug 351]

.00000000003 seconds later.... YOU GUYS ARE HILARIOUS!!!!!

[jjhill001]

That would suggest they are endothermic, which goes against everything I know about reptiles. I would like to see where you read about that.

I mean, I posted the article on the crocodiles, I think we all know about the ball python thing when they are incubating their eggs.

Here is a study done on black and white Argentinian tegu.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2074982-first-warm-blooded-lizards-switch-on-mystery-heat-source-at-will/

"Surprise rise
The team studied the Argentinian black and white tegu (Salvator merianae), a 60-90-centimetre-long lizard that lives across much of South America.

As expected, for much of the year it cooled down when the sun set, reaching a low similar to that of its burrow between about 4 and 6am.

The surprise came when the lizards reached the reproductive time of the year, from September to December. During the cold early hours of the morning in that season, their breathing and heart rates rose and their temperatures reached as much as 10 °C above those of their burrows.

The discovery was so unexpected that the scientists took a further three years to confirm it, says Tattersall. “We would expect them to be as cold as they possibly could be at that time,” he says." - From the tegu article.


I would imagine that many other reptiles have similar adaptations that have simply just gone unstudied.

However, outside of the random one off instances that we've mentioned here in general they can’t fuel sustained muscular activity by aerobic means, but they have a fallback, as anaerobic metabolism usually can keep them going long enough to find the food item or shelter that they require. This is likely the extra umph they need to push themselves into hibernation chambers in the wild or out on cold days in the early spring as we see with garter snakes and others.

When a snake digests food there is extra energy and that generates heat on its own, now that's not to say that energy is enough to maintain proper body functions over a long period at extremely sub optimal temperatures. But it does lend itself to explaining why hotspots (in snakes) may not be necessary for proper digestion if kept at either the correct single ambient temperature or even with a gradient minus the hotspot, so say 75-85 with no little spot that's 90 degrees or whatever.

I do think, in particular the biochemical hypothesis with the alligator study I mentioned is interesting. A highly debated subject in regards to dinosaurs is whether they were endo or ectothermic. Crocodilians as we know are considered to be one of the most ancient of the living reptiles, having many relatives from back when dinosaurs still roamed the land. Perhaps dinosaurs had similar functions in regards to temperature, maybe some were fully endothermic and maybe those species evolved into birds and mammals while the ectothermic dinos evolved into the reptiles, amphibians we see today.

But, fish who all of those species evolved from, would endothermic fish have evolved into the warm blooded dinos and cold blooded fish into the cold blooded dinosaurs. Honestly, probably something entirely different, I'm not an archaeologist, I know more than probably most of the population about dinosaurs but considering the majority of the population doesn't care about dinosaurs that doesn't say much.

But in the tegu article there is a link to another surprising discovery in regards to fish generating their own heat.

Whole-body endothermy in a mesopelagic fish, the opah, Lampris guttatus | Science (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/348/6236/786)

The opah species of fish has a few adaptations that generate and spread heat throughout its body in order to dive into extremely cold waters to feed and such. Is this or the dinosaur thing related to our discussions, no, not really. But I think it's interesting.

But while we're on the topic of fish, in particular captive aquarium fish. These animals are ectotherms just like our reptiles. We know for a fact that fish thermoregulate in the wild to avoid too warm of water or too cool temperature water, yet in captivity we don't offer multiple temperature levels (at least intentionally). The aquarium hobby decided that in general 76-80 is the best area to be in and they've essentially stuck to that. This is because it's not possible or realistic to have any sort of real gradient in all but the largest aquariums which I imagine could be done with creatively placed heaters. We know that fish thermoregulate, we know they don't need to. So we don't make it an important aspect of that hobby.

I pose the question, if for whatever reason any of the keepers here were unable to provide thermoregulation opportunities, would they suddenly stop keeping snakes? Or would we as a hobby just adapt to the ambient temperature method because we know the snakes don't need it and others have found success with the method?

In my opinion offering snakes something they don't need is adding another variable that can cause problems. A snake NEEDS a reasonably sized tub, a certain temperature a water bowl and some hides.

I choose to provide natural decor, many hides, burrowing opportunity. I feel as if I'm doing that more for my enjoyment than anything the snake needs. I want my snakes to have more room to stretch out, move around and to have the decor to climb and display on. Does the snake NEED it? No. Does the snake WANT it? Eh, that's arguable. Do I want my snakes to have those opportunities? Yes. In regards to my snakes I don't want them to have access to hotspots or a huge gradient. This is because of the problems that I've found to be associated with those aspects of care, it's in the interest of my snake's health more than anything. I think that snakes in the wild chase the temperatures I'm offering my snakes making it natural without all of the extremes they are forced to face in the wild which in my mind is the benefit I offer my snakes from being in captivity.

Well that got wordy with a tangent here and there and I don't have a conclusion so I won't put one lol.

[chairman]

Once again from the world of tortoises, but tortoises "generate heat" after eating too. However, it is my understanding that it is not the tortoise that creates the heat but the gut flora and fermentation process that accompanies digestion in hind-gut fermenters. Something similar could be true for the crocodilians, tegus, and rattlesnakes... they are not producing heat like exotherms but if their gut flora is given fuel then the microorganisms may generate heat or initiate chemical processes that create heat. It would also make sense that larger meals result in more heat, the microorganisms have more fuel to work with.

I'm afraid that I don't have a citation for the tortoise heat generation, it has been a couple years since I read about it.

[jjhill001]

Once again from the world of tortoises, but tortoises "generate heat" after eating too. However, it is my understanding that it is not the tortoise that creates the heat but the gut flora and fermentation process that accompanies digestion in hind-gut fermenters. Something similar could be true for the crocodilians, tegus, and rattlesnakes... they are not producing heat like exotherms but if their gut flora is given fuel then the microorganisms may generate heat or initiate chemical processes that create heat. It would also make sense that larger meals result in more heat, the microorganisms have more fuel to work with.

I'm afraid that I don't have a citation for the tortoise heat generation, it has been a couple years since I read about it.

I'm not a scientist but your explanation for the snakes and tortoises is probably sound. I was just pointing out that they get warmer, I think with the crocs and tegus if feeding was causing it the people studying them would have seen that and I believe the tegus were on their way right out of hibernation so wouldn't have any food in them.

The whole subject is really interesting in general especially when you get down to the science-y parts of it. I'm not really defending the no hotspot or ambient temperature thing anymore, I just think the discussion is really interesting especially when people start whipping scientific papers around.

I wish that these journal study sites weren't so dang expensive, that's where the juicy stuff that doesn't make it into random reptile books is hidden lol. Can we get a forum wide account?

Reptiles are just so interesting in general.

Even the definitions of Ectotherms and Endotherms both start off with "so-called cold blooded" and "so-called warm blooded" and I'm not trying to get into a semantics argument here... but ectotherms do rely on external temperatures and endotherms do maintain their own temperature independent of the environment. But even endotherms rely on external temperatures to a certain extent and maybe even ectotherms can't be 100% reliant on external temperatures otherwise any random cold spell during springtime could wipe them out.

Even a mammal has a similar adaptation to the woodfrog:

From Business Insider: The link is to the sourced study

Repeated changes of dendritic morphology in the hippocampus of ground squirrels in the course of hibernation - ScienceDirect (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/030645229290336Z)

Arctic ground squirrels are the only mammal on this list, and for good reason. Although many mammals can handle the cold with downy coats of fur, and by hibernating away the cold months, none shut down for the winter like the arctic ground squirrel. Like the other contenders, these squirrels can also super-cool their bodies below its freezing point, down to -2.9° C (26.78° F), a record amongst mammals.

But the real impressive adaptation happens in the squirrels' brains — they can sever neural connections, synapses, for hibernation, and reconnect them as soon as they wake (and warm) up, roughly once every two or three weeks during the winter.

Dendrites are the branchlike portion of neurons that receive chemical messages from other neurons, and hibernation causes them to wither. A Russian study in the early 1990s found that dissected brains of squirrels mid-hibernation contained far fewer dendrites than the brains from squirrels that were woken up and allowed to acclimate.

And only two hours after waking from its slumber, the synapse connections are restored, with even more dendrite branches than before. But 12 to 15 hours later, the brain begins culling the connections again as the squirrel returns to hibernation.

-----------

https://youtu.be/wbxKy_D6v-k

Back in regards to turtles, here is a video that is regarding captive turtles kept outdoors at Garden State Tortoise and the keeper has seen his Blanding's turtles are active in the 20F range. Towards the end of the video the keeper Chris Leone mentions that the Gulf Coast box turtles winter outside in New Jersey as well. It's kind of interesting the statement Kenan makes in regards to the genetics being decided long ago in regards to the conditions that box turtles can endure. Now, does this mean that we can drop a snake neck turtle from South America in a pond in Ohio where I live and expect good things to happen? No, absolutely not but I wonder how the ideal captive temperatures of various species of aquatic turtles measure up to one another and then furthermore what the keepers of multiple species are actually doing in practice that is working for them and their turtles.

[Doug 351]

Since mention was made of ratlesnakes, I thought I'd throw this out there. Scientists were trying to figure out how a certain species of rattlesnake could survive in sub-freezing temperatures and digest it's food.

They basically force fed one of these rattlesnakes and studied it under conditions mimicking it's habitat. After a period of time, they had to take emergency action to save the snake.

Well, they missed ONE thing! In the wild, rattlesnakes invenomate their prey which initiates and assists the digestive processes. They injected prey with venom and repeated the experiment with much success.

[jjhill001]

Since mention was made of ratlesnakes, I thought I'd throw this out there. Scientists were trying to figure out how a certain species of rattlesnake could survive in sub-freezing temperatures and digest it's food.

They basically force fed one of these rattlesnakes and studied it under conditions mimicking it's habitat. After a period of time, they had to take emergency action to save the snake.

Well, they missed ONE thing! In the wild, rattlesnakes invenomate their prey which initiates and assists the digestive processes. They injected prey with venom and repeated the experiment with much success.

Do we know whether they are actively feeding in sub-freezing temperatures in the wild? I'm no rattlesnake expert but I think that's really cool. Not just a, can they but do they kind of question.

If we think about the places these snakes are found, in North America at least (or even just North American Snakes in general) in regards to when the last ice age ended, 11,700 years ago is what google craps out from livescience. Potentially with a catastrophic meteor related event 13,000 years ago that might have wiped out the mega mammals and some prehistoric civilizations.

My question is this. Could the snakes have been alive in some of the areas very close to the ice sheets during this time period? Were these adaptations with the rattlesnakes, the crocodiles etc, a way for them to survive the colder climates brought on by the ice age? How much can a population REALLY change, genetically speaking, in the span of only a few 10's of thousands of years? The only source I can find on the ice sheets is estimated maps and generalized estimates of what temperatures were doing back then. The average accepted number I keep seeing is that overall average temperatures were lower by 10 - 40 degrees depending on area and what climate cycle was happening at the time.

Here's an forum conversation with some guy who wrote a book on pre-historic Georgia. Apparently weather hobbyists are a thing as well, he even has articles on reptile and amphibian fossils from that era.

Southeastern North America wasn't Very Cold During the Ice Age - AccuWeather.com Forums (http://forums.accuweather.com/index.php?showtopic=19067)

https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/tag/giant-tortoise/

How far north did reptiles, snakes in particular live during this time? Particularly out west? I'm gonna try and do some more research and see what I come back with as I think it is certainly interesting in better understanding more in general.

[Doug 351]

This information came from a TV show I watched. The whole point of the research was to figure out how these rattlesnakes could survive in the climate they were in..

I wish I could offer more, but it's been a few years.

[jjhill001]

This information came from a TV show I watched. The whole point of the research was to figure out how these rattlesnakes could survive in the climate they were in..

I wish I could offer more, but it's been a few years.

Hehe, I always hate that. Sucks that a lot of the older sites with interesting reptile information is gone, old books aren't at the library anymore etc. Random one off tips from actual breeders at shows and such.

[Louv44]

Not offering a hot spot makes no sense at all honestly I have no idea why that's even a thing? They need to thermo-regulate. That's like saying I spoke to a well respected doctor who has survived on heroin. Sorry I don't get it but to each there own.

[Scubadiver59]

Not offering a hot spot makes no sense at all honestly I have no idea why that's even a thing? They need to thermo-regulate. That's like saying I spoke to a well respected doctor who has survived on heroin. Sorry I don't get it but to each there own.

:confused: what??? :confused:

[Louv44]

:confused: what??? :confused:

Guy said he spoke to a well respected snake breeder who said snakes don't need a hotspot? My point was simply that totally stupid, cold blooded animals need heat!! That's not really a debate topic lol ok the analogy I used wasn't the best but I was so blown away i could of went on for days. If your going to get an animal any animal get everything it needs or just simply don't get it.

I'm sure the guys whole argument was they eat and breed so they are fine that's where the heroin analogy came in some people do it an live don't mean everyone who does it will live or that it's a good idea, he is lucky his snakes lived or didn't get sick at the very least.

[Scubadiver59]

Quite a few acerbic comments in there.

And what is your experience...how many years have you been keeping reptiles? How many snakes do you have...how many different species? How can you call someone "stupid" when you don't back up your statements with nothing other than that strange analogy about heroin and a doctor? You've heard the phrase, "comparing apples to oranges?" I don't see where an opoid abusing medical professional has anything to do with herpeculturists and reptile husbandry.

Guy said he spoke to a well respected snake breeder who said snakes don't need a hotspot? My point was simply that totally stupid, cold blooded animals need heat!! That's not really a debate topic lol ok the analogy I used wasn't the best but I was so blown away i could of went on for days. If your going to get an animal any animal get everything it needs or just simply don't get it.

I'm sure the guys whole argument was they eat and breed so they are fine that's where the heroin analogy came in some people do it an live don't mean everyone who does it will live or that it's a good idea, he is lucky his snakes lived or didn't get sick at the very least.

[Andy_G]

What about the idea of incubation temps being the "ideal" for a species? Would this make sense to anyone else? Just a thought that I figured I would randomly throw that thought into the hat.


Guy said he spoke to a well respected snake breeder who said snakes don't need a hotspot? My point was simply that totally stupid, cold blooded animals need heat!! That's not really a debate topic lol ok the analogy I used wasn't the best but I was so blown away i could of went on for days. If your going to get an animal any animal get everything it needs or just simply don't get it.

I'm sure the guys whole argument was they eat and breed so they are fine that's where the heroin analogy came in some people do it an live don't mean everyone who does it will live or that it's a good idea, he is lucky his snakes lived or didn't get sick at the very least.

Lou...have you read the entire thread, including all of the evidence that this may not necessarily be a bad idea? Up until your post it's for the most part been very intriguing and thought provoking. From your comments, I am assuming that you most likely haven't...for example you mention lack of heat, but that isn't even remotely what is being presented here, nor is anyone outrightly saying or arguing that it's indeed correct. I'd suggest actually reading and processing the information and conversation presented here by the insightful and intelligent members we have before dismissing it and regarding it as stupid. I can tell you, flat out, there are multiple species (asian rats, some central american milks, geckos of new caledonia) that thrive at room temp, don't really need to thermoregulate (or when given the opportunity to do so they just don't do it), and some species can actually be harmed or perish when kept at warmer temps or given a hot spot that's too hot...so although I get where you're coming from...it's not entirely correct either and your statement really adds nothing but insult to the discussion.

[Louv44]

Scubadiver - first I certainly wasn't calling anyone stupid I would never do that and if I came off that way I apologize to everyone and I certainly don't consider myself a top 10,000 expert on the subject. I was calling that specific idea stupid. I don't think you need a lot of experience to know that in the wild cold blooded animals use heat to thermo-regulate and wouldn't it be fair to say we should provide any animal with what it would have in the wild? To answer your question I started keeping snakes when I was 11 but was around them before that cause my older brothers always had a bunch. I bred carpet pythons from 1994 to 2001, then wasout of the hobby until my kids wanted some 5 years ago. I've owned rat snakes, Corns, Kings, Ball pythons ( of course ) Argentine Boas, Columbian boas, Dominican red mountains but my main animal like I said was carpets. Again all we need to know that cold blooded animals need to thermo-regulate is any introductory science book? That's not debatable they are in fact cold blooded. So the win of not allowing them to do that is what? I saved a little money on a heat mat and thermostat and I can tell people look they lived! I just feel it's our duty if we choose to keep any animal we provide them with what they need they are helpless it's the correct thing to do. Again I agree I could written a much better post and again I apologize that's something I need to work on. It's just one mans opinion that it's wrong and really don't make sense, like why do that? What's the victory?

[Louv44]

AndyG - your 100 percent right I did not read the whole threat and should of before posting, can't argue a good point like that. I just apologized for some mistakes I made in a post to scubadiver as well.

[Louv44]

Last thing I wanted to add why I didn't agree. Also in general I was just talking about day to day living for a cold blooded animal. Take the health thing out of the picture. All of us who keep snakes see 95 percent of our snakes throughout the day or week, sometimes on the hot side sometimes on the cooler side. Being cold blooded they feel that few degree difference. Keeping the tank one temp we are removing the ability for that animal to cool off if it chooses. I would think we all got into this hobby cause we care about reptiles so we should provide them with the best environment we can, if an individual doesn't care about reptiles for any reason that's totally ok but don't get any ever.

I think the biggest thing is why do it? What is the victory in it?

Anyway those are the reasons I didn't agree and just my opinion. No big deal not the end of the world. Scuba and Andy were right my posts were not done correctly and I should of read it all. That's on me, I apologized for that part of it.

I almost didn't even reply the real reason I joined is when my kids wanted snakes it reminded me of How much I enjoyed this hobby and love these animals. Wanted to join this community and talk with people who feel the same and help people if possible and also get help and learn, we can all always learn more. Anyway have a good weekend all!

[jjhill001]

Quite a few acerbic comments in there.

And what is your experience...how many years have you been keeping reptiles? How many snakes do you have...how many different species? How can you call someone "stupid" when you don't back up your statements with nothing other than that strange analogy about heroin and a doctor? You've heard the phrase, "comparing apples to oranges?" I don't see where an opoid abusing medical professional has anything to do with herpeculturists and reptile husbandry.

Doctor House was a pretty good doctor despite being on pills all the time lol.

[jjhill001]

Last thing I wanted to add why I didn't agree. Also in general I was just talking about day to day living for a cold blooded animal. Take the health thing out of the picture. All of us who keep snakes see 95 percent of our snakes throughout the day or week, sometimes on the hot side sometimes on the cooler side. Being cold blooded they feel that few degree difference. Keeping the tank one temp we are removing the ability for that animal to cool off if it chooses. I would think we all got into this hobby cause we care about reptiles so we should provide them with the best environment we can, if an individual doesn't care about reptiles for any reason that's totally ok but don't get any ever.

I think the biggest thing is why do it? What is the victory in it?

Anyway those are the reasons I didn't agree and just my opinion. No big deal not the end of the world. Scuba and Andy were right my posts were not done correctly and I should of read it all. That's on me, I apologized for that part of it.

I almost didn't even reply the real reason I joined is when my kids wanted snakes it reminded me of How much I enjoyed this hobby and love these animals. Wanted to join this community and talk with people who feel the same and help people if possible and also get help and learn, we can all always learn more. Anyway have a good weekend all!

It's not ridiculous to have that first knee jerk reaction so I don't think anyone will blame you for it. I had the same reaction when I heard of it. The problem is when at least with the keeper I was speaking to who also manages the reptile collection in a well respected zoo, he's kept just about any species you could possibly keep. All at that same temp. He was a pioneer in Chondros (green tree pythons), Carpets and keeping those the same way he was keeping his Prairie Rattlesnakes that are from North Dakota.

If your interested at all in reptiles in general the entire thread has great information people on all sides of the debate and examples involving wild reptiles that aren't entirely reliant on the temperatures we may have once thought.

I'm gonna break down your questions point by point but please do read through the thread because I'm not just gonna rehash things I've already said:

-Why keep a tank at one temp: Well it's very difficult to keep a tank at one consistent temp throughout the day, if you go balls to the wall with the strategy you have to essentially have a dedicated room for your snakes which is much easier to keep at a set temperature via either home heating or by thermostat controlled space heater (a nice semi-industrial one not the house fire kind). What I've mentioned that I do personally to do this on a tank by tank level is I've essentially tightened up my gradient. My cool side is warmer, my warm side is cooler. My snakes can access anywhere between 78-83F, as a result I have to worry about humidity very little.

-We care about reptiles: Absolutely, its why people are always trying to improve their care and husbandry. Even the best of the best aren't perfect. I believe that this is an improvement on the way people have been keeping their snakes. I'm not shouting from the hilltops for everyone to change what they are doing especially when it's working for them. But I've seen the animals people who keep their snakes this way and my animals are extraordinary in my opinion. I haven't been using this method long, 2 years or so. But if I'm sitting here 5 years from now with just as perfect animals I'm at least proving that there isn't any harm done by the method.

-What is the victory in it?: I haven't had a shedding issue or any other issue since I've started adopting some of the strategies of this theory while at the same time essentially being able to ignore humidity. I know people have issues with humidity, temperature control, everything, people can do things by the book and still have issues. I'm not seeing those issues, if my snakes are shedding well, eating ferociously, and are thriving then that is my measure of success as a keeper and that is my victory. I think in general it is easier to keep a tighter gradient in the smaller confines of an enclosure if the method proves true it could solve issues for other keepers as well and that would be an even bigger victory.

Either way, you're heart is in the right place but I do encourage you go back and read through everything that was posted here. Otherwise, welcome to the forum and what kind of snakes are you keeping?

[dannybgoode]

By coincidence we were having the same debate on a Facebook group. The following is from Fran Baines.

For those that don't know of Fran she is a world leading scientist on reptile heating and lighting. Zoos around the world consult her and she has published hundreds of papers on the subject.

She is hunting out some papers from her library on the need for snakes to thermoregulate and as soon I have then I'll post a link.

If Fran says they need to thermoregulate I'll take her word over that over any number of breeders and hobbiests to be honest - she's done the research.

---
All reptiles need to thermoregulate for optimum health; they need to be able to adjust their internal body temperature according to their current physiological need. This includes an increase in body temperature when digesting food, for example. And a night drop is important (along with darkness) to regulate circadian rhythms.
Ideally, you're looking to create a thermal gradient that's above the average preferred body temperature at one end of the vivarium, as a heat source, and cooler than the preferred body temperature at the other end, as a "heat sink" (technical term for cooling-off place)...
Unfortunately if you keep the whole environment at the same temperature, the reptile can't change its body temperature at all. This is chronic stress, and can lead to poor health and poor growth.
---

This from Francis Cosqueiri - a herpetologist who's spent decades observing snakes.

---
You may not know this but Fran is a world renowned vet whose advice is sought by zoos and institutions worldwide, that has published reams of peer reviewed papers, especially on the topic she is advising on - she doesn't give "opinions" she changes the way these animals are viewed with her work. The wise would do well to sit up, shut up and pay heed when she givrs advice.

Also, yes - keeping a reptile at one temperature is absolutely terrible advice, bordering on cruelty in my opinion, regardless of the "loads of people" that say otherwise. Simply because the preferred temperature (Tp) of these animals has been shown to vary depending on age, season, gender... In fact some of my own research was on preferred temperature in reptiles and I can even name cryptic species that have been separated due to their preference for different temperatures!

Providing a thermal gradient is ALWAYS to be recommended, even for hardy Royal Pythons, because that is how these animals thermoregulate. It is essentially the basic building block of ethical reptile care.
---

As I say when Fran gives me the papers I'll post them up.

[jjhill001]

By coincidence we were having the same debate on a Facebook group. The following is from Fran Baines.

For those that don't know of Fran she is a world leading scientist on reptile heating and lighting. Zoos around the world consult her and she has published hundreds of papers on the subject.

She is hunting out some papers from her library on the need for snakes to thermoregulate and as soon I have then I'll post a link.

If Fran says they need to thermoregulate I'll take her word over that over any number of breeders and hobbiests to be honest - she's done the research.

---
All reptiles need to thermoregulate for optimum health; they need to be able to adjust their internal body temperature according to their current physiological need. This includes an increase in body temperature when digesting food, for example. And a night drop is important (along with darkness) to regulate circadian rhythms.
Ideally, you're looking to create a thermal gradient that's above the average preferred body temperature at one end of the vivarium, as a heat source, and cooler than the preferred body temperature at the other end, as a "heat sink" (technical term for cooling-off place)...
Unfortunately if you keep the whole environment at the same temperature, the reptile can't change its body temperature at all. This is chronic stress, and can lead to poor health and poor growth.
---

This from Francis Cosqueiri - a herpetologist who's spent decades observing snakes.

---
You may not know this but Fran is a world renowned vet whose advice is sought by zoos and institutions worldwide, that has published reams of peer reviewed papers, especially on the topic she is advising on - she doesn't give "opinions" she changes the way these animals are viewed with her work. The wise would do well to sit up, shut up and pay heed when she givrs advice.

Also, yes - keeping a reptile at one temperature is absolutely terrible advice, bordering on cruelty in my opinion, regardless of the "loads of people" that say otherwise. Simply because the preferred temperature (Tp) of these animals has been shown to vary depending on age, season, gender... In fact some of my own research was on preferred temperature in reptiles and I can even name cryptic species that have been separated due to their preference for different temperatures!

Providing a thermal gradient is ALWAYS to be recommended, even for hardy Royal Pythons, because that is how these animals thermoregulate. It is essentially the basic building block of ethical reptile care.
---

As I say when Fran gives me the papers I'll post them up.

My source is the curator of the Reptile Gardens and has just as much experience. I have to say once again that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[dannybgoode]

My source is the curator of the Reptile Gardens and has just as much experience. I have to say once again that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Have they had peer reviewed papers published on the subject?

If the science shows they need to thermoregulate that is it as far as I'm concerned regardless of anecdotes.

[RAD House]

Danny, from both those quotes it sounds as if they are sharing opinions. Neither reference any work that shows their opinion holds validity. I will concede their opinion comes from a ton of experience, but that doesn't mean they have any experience keeping snakes at a stable temperature.

[dannybgoode]

Danny, from both those quotes it sounds as if they are sharing opinions. Neither reference any work that shows their opinion holds validity. I will concede their opinion comes from a ton of experience, but that doesn't mean they have any experience keeping snakes at a stable temperature.

Fran has spent decades researching reptile heating and lighting - much of it in lab conditions. She is a world renowned reptile vet who consults with the world's top zoos. She has published hundreds of scientific peer reviewed papers. I would say hers, whilst possibly just 'opinion', is far more informed than any of ours. And note as a scientist - if the evidence suggested that a single stable temperature as optimum that is what she would promote.

Francis' research is interesting as he has had to separate snakes of the same species as they had different temperature preferences the suggesting that if we find a single temperature on every multiple snakes of the same species, never mind separate species, some of these snakes may be at a sub optimal temperature.

I think aside from whether a single temperature of thermoregulation is any better than one another the fact is we simply do not know what (if there even is one) this magic temperature is for an individual snake - nevermind multiple snakes.

In humans if the core temperature deviates by more than a couple of c either way the body shuts down. So a degree of two difference in a snake temperature may be biologically very significant. How do we know therefore that it should be 26, 27, 28c - whatever. We simply don't. By keeping snakes at a single temperature you are picking an arbitrary temperature and knowing that on your snakes giving them no choice in the matter. How can this be justifiable?

Further how do we know that even if through thermoregulation a snake only changes its internal temperature by 0.5c each way this isn't significant? Again to remove this choice - to me at least - seems unnecessary. In in lieu of knowing for certain - given its a relatively trivial thing to do why not provide a basking spot and the chance to thermoregulate.

I have been given 6 or so papers on the subject of thermoregulation in snakes which I am currently saying through and then I'll post them up - hopefully with a coherent brief summary of each one.

I would of the challenge out there to find papers in support of single temperature keeping.

[dannybgoode]

And as well as papers my other request is to tell me at what single temperature ensures should be kept and on what days and other research this figure is based on.

[jjhill001]

For being the world leading scientist on reptiles I can't find a single result on google, typing her name in. You don't need someone to publish it in a journal to see results.

I would challenge that she probably never kept a snake at a single temperature in order to see if there is any measurable difference. I also maintain that the majority of studies are done with the goal of understanding wild aninals more meaning that they obviously would try and replicate those conditions.

[dannybgoode]

So essentially you're advising people it's fine to deny a snake the ability to perform one of its fundamental behaviours with no scientific understanding of the importance of that behaviour and with no research or data to back up or prove what this magic temperature is or even be able tell me what it is?

You have no proof either that different species are all ok at the same temperature (and I can categorically say this is not the case).

But hey some snakes haven't died yet and some have even bred so it must be ok. The default position of people who follow breeder methodology (and I am not making just on here but in the hobby in general) is to demand papers from those advocating an alternate position.

As I say I have 6 or so papers on the subject, one of which does indeed compare snakes being allowed thermoregulate against those kept at a single temperature.

I am simply asking for the same. What scientific proof do you have that your method is not harmful - what proof do you have that denying a fundamental behaviour is ok?

[TRD]

For being the world leading scientist on reptiles I can't find a single result on google, typing her name in. You don't need someone to publish it in a journal to see results.

Type the right name: Frances M Baines

And it's not on reptiles, it on lighting requirements for reptiles.

[jjhill001]

Type the right name: Frances M Baines

And it's not on reptiles, it on lighting requirements for reptiles.

Who the heck is "Francis Cosqueiri" then? Lol.

[jjhill001]

So essentially you're advising people it's fine to deny a snake the ability to perform one of its fundamental behaviours with no scientific understanding of the importance of that behaviour and with no research or data to back up or prove what this magic temperature is or even be able tell me what it is?

You have no proof either that different species are all ok at the same temperature (and I can categorically say this is not the case).

But hey some snakes haven't died yet and some have even bred so it must be ok. The default position of people who follow breeder methodology (and I am not making just on here but in the hobby in general) is to demand papers from those advocating an alternate position.

As I say I have 6 or so papers on the subject, one of which does indeed compare snakes being allowed thermoregulate against those kept at a single temperature.

I am simply asking for the same. What scientific proof do you have that your method is not harmful - what proof do you have that denying a fundamental behaviour is ok?

First off, I'm not advising anyone to do anything. If something is working for them then why would they change it?

I also don't like the implication that I don't understand that some snakes bask in the wild or why they do it.

I've said that the temperature is in the 80 degrees F +/- a degree or two.

Some snakes? There are probably upwards of tens of thousands of snakes being kept in this manner with no ill effects. So many snakes have been kept this way and many different species.

You say you have 6 papers on the subject, you haven't posted any of them. This is you saying "I have a source and its a better source than yours just because I said so." There aren't many papers on the subject because very few people in the scientific community care about captive husbandry. Who would I go to in order to gain funding for such a long term and potentially costly study? Reptile care product companies wouldn't fund such a study at the risk of losing customers for their heating products and the scientific community probably just doesn't care. I only have my experiences with this method and the evidence that others have produced who do something similar.

I won't be encouraged to do something that adds an unnecessary variable to my enclosures that isn't offering any measurable benefit but has the risk to cause issues. If my snakes were listless or experiencing any kind of issues I would change it immediately but that's just flat out not the case. This method works as well as any other method does when done correctly for the same reason those methods work.

In regards to taking away their behaviors, I don't feel as if I'm stopping my snake from exploring it's enclosure, the many tunnels through the substrate prove that they remain as active as ever.

Anyways I've given my reasoning behind why I do what I do already, have a good evening.

[TRD]

Who the heck is "Francis Cosqueiri" then? Lol.

Just a very knowledgeable dude from the UK that has brought many colubrid snakes into Europe back in the days and is still working on establishing new species in captivity. He keeps quite a lot of snakes people don't usually keep in very nice setups and maintains a whole bunch of articles related to husbandry. Nice guy as well. And no, you won't find him all over internet :)

[Aaron_S]

So essentially you're advising people it's fine to deny a snake the ability to perform one of its fundamental behaviours with no scientific understanding of the importance of that behaviour and with no research or data to back up or prove what this magic temperature is or even be able tell me what it is?

You have no proof either that different species are all ok at the same temperature (and I can categorically say this is not the case).

But hey some snakes haven't died yet and some have even bred so it must be ok. The default position of people who follow breeder methodology (and I am not making just on here but in the hobby in general) is to demand papers from those advocating an alternate position.

As I say I have 6 or so papers on the subject, one of which does indeed compare snakes being allowed thermoregulate against those kept at a single temperature.

I am simply asking for the same. What scientific proof do you have that your method is not harmful - what proof do you have that denying a fundamental behaviour is ok?

I definitely think she has merit and I appreciate you posting her words here for us. I personally prefer the gradient because I don't like the idea of the ideal temp. I think it takes more work, a more dedicated room and if a rack isn't full of snakes I can just pull the plug on the heat tape whereas with the room I have to keep the heat constant.

First off, I'm not advising anyone to do anything. If something is working for them then why would they change it?

I also don't like the implication that I don't understand that some snakes bask in the wild or why they do it.

I've said that the temperature is in the 80 degrees F +/- a degree or two.

Some snakes? There are probably upwards of tens of thousands of snakes being kept in this manner with no ill effects. So many snakes have been kept this way and many different species.

You say you have 6 papers on the subject, you haven't posted any of them. This is you saying "I have a source and its a better source than yours just because I said so." There aren't many papers on the subject because very few people in the scientific community care about captive husbandry. Who would I go to in order to gain funding for such a long term and potentially costly study? Reptile care product companies wouldn't fund such a study at the risk of losing customers for their heating products and the scientific community probably just doesn't care. I only have my experiences with this method and the evidence that others have produced who do something similar.

I won't be encouraged to do something that adds an unnecessary variable to my enclosures that isn't offering any measurable benefit but has the risk to cause issues. If my snakes were listless or experiencing any kind of issues I would change it immediately but that's just flat out not the case. This method works as well as any other method does when done correctly for the same reason those methods work.

In regards to taking away their behaviors, I don't feel as if I'm stopping my snake from exploring it's enclosure, the many tunnels through the substrate prove that they remain as active as ever.

Anyways I've given my reasoning behind why I do what I do already, have a good evening.

Now, if you haven't seen it, Danny mentioned she's a world renowned vet. She's a "for profit" person so she could fund her own studies. However, someone who has a business in some respect has an agenda for their own gain in my opinion but it doesn't mean we can't dig further into the conversation because she could easily be right and her papers, when they're posted, could be very insightful.

[jjhill001]

Now, if you haven't seen it, Danny mentioned she's a world renowned vet. She's a "for profit" person so she could fund her own studies. However, someone who has a business in some respect has an agenda for their own gain in my opinion but it doesn't mean we can't dig further into the conversation because she could easily be right and her papers, when they're posted, could be very insightful.

I misread where he said Fran Baines and only saw the Francis Cosqueiri name, so that's my bad. I get on here pretty late some times and the similarity of the first name must have done it.

Terry Phillip is a world renowned snake keeper and zoo curator. Looking at how much he's been involved in conservation, documentaries and research he's just as much of an authority as anyone else who's referenced in regards to snake care as far as I'm concerned.

"Because of my experience and reputation among the worldwide venomous community, I also train both private and professional venomous snake keepers on handling techniques, captive management, and husbandry protocol - I have had the opportunity to train keepers and curators from San Diego, the St. Louis, Henry Doorly Zoo in Omaha, the Denver Zoo, the zoos in Dallas and Ft. Worth, the Woodland Park Zoo in Seattle, Miami MetroZoo, and the Tampa Zoo."

The link to his site is below included in his about me section.

About Me | Black Hills Pythons | Rapid City, South Dakota (http://www.blackhillspythons.com/about.php)

The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not just pulling stuff out of my butt to defend the way I'm doing things. The same way that Danny isn't pulling anything out of his butt. I don't feel he's wrong however I don't think that I am either. Which goes back to my statement about there being more than one way to take care of snakes.