House Snake Identification Help

[SerpentineDream]

I bought 1.2 captive hatched African house snakes that were sold as olive house snakes. They arrive tomorrow. The problem is that there are multiple subspecies that those could be, none of which interbreed so I want to be sure of what I've got. The seller said their parents were wild caught imports and he never could get a clear answer from the exporter when he asked what the Latin name was.

He had these pics so I'm posting them here (credit to Mike Schultz) to see if we can get a positive ID.

Hatchlings are nearly black and they lighten as they mature. The parents came from Ghana. I think that rules out South African olive house snakes (Lamprophis inornatus) and green phase common house snakes (Boaedon fuliginosus). And I *think* that these are "true olive house snakes," Boaedon olivaceus, formerly Lamprophis olivaceus. From my research it appears that their territories don't significantly overlap and B. olivaceus lives too far north to be either of the other subspecies.

Thoughts from those more experienced with house snakes?

Hatchling

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r669/Serpentine_Dream/Mobile%20Uploads/baby-house-snake-1_zpsrffstqwr.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/Serpentine_Dream/media/Mobile%20Uploads/baby-house-snake-1_zpsrffstqwr.jpg.html)

Adult

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r669/Serpentine_Dream/Mobile%20Uploads/olive%20house%20snake_zpsek38bx3u.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/Serpentine_Dream/media/Mobile%20Uploads/olive%20house%20snake_zpsek38bx3u.jpg.html)

[Charis]

I am not very good at I.Ding the different House snakes but I feel confident saying that they are not B. fuliginosus based on looks, for sure. I'm not familiar enough with either inornatus or olivaceus to comment on those.

[SerpentineDream]

That actually does help. B. fuliginosus is the only one whose range came even close, so that you were able to eliminate that as a possibility suggests that B. olivaceus is the only one left standing.

Additional clues are that B. olivaceus is almost unheard of in the US because it is so hard for collectors to get to them in the dense rain forest. Ghana, from which these guys hail, is mostly rain forest. L. inornatus appears to have a thicker head than these guys. And supposedly something unique to B. olivaceus is that it has a single caudal plate under the cloaca. I'll check when they arrive tomorrow.

But it looks like we have bona fide true olive house snakes! Jackpot! If I'm able to verify that tomorrow I'll have to let Mike know he's got some rare critters.

They don't look like much until the light hits them just right. Then they glow. The iridescence reminds me of a semi-precious gem called labradorite. Pic from Google Images.

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r669/Serpentine_Dream/Mobile%20Uploads/P1080562_zpsmcm4zg9k.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/Serpentine_Dream/media/Mobile%20Uploads/P1080562_zpsmcm4zg9k.jpg.html)

[Magdalen]

OOoooh wow they are lovely. I'm not any help on this, I just wanted to say they are lovely.


I'm becoming a house snake fan :)

[dannybgoode]

If they are B olivaceus then I'll be extremely jealous! One of the few snakes that if I saw one tomorrow I'd buy without hesitation.

[Aaron_S]

I want some in a few years when you produce them! Please put me on the list.

[SerpentineDream]

Hooray, a customer already! :)

Am anxiously waiting for a small box to arrive....

[jjhill001]

I love the jet black ones.

[SerpentineDream]

They are here and I still can't say for sure what they are. I know they aren't South African olives because these have elliptical pupils and South African olives have round pupils. Charis is certain they aren't B. fuliginosus. They were definitely collected in Ghana, ruling out Cape house snakes. Typically true olives have red or reddish brown eyes. These guys have dark brown eyes. The seller says sometimes their eyes do lighten in color and of the adults that come in, some have red eyes and some don't. They have one single subcaudal plate under the cloaca and the rest of the subcaudal scales are divided. I'm not sure if that is typical of true olives or if the single scales are supposed to go all the way down the tail.

The seller is supposed to get more adults in in a week or two and he's going to send me more photos of adults. He's also going to ask if they were collected from rain forest or grasslands. Ghana is largely rain forest but not entirely and knowing that will help.

They are dark gray, almost black but they have a greenish iridescent sheen. The seller said often they lighten up as they mature but that locality never gets super light like some of the olives I've seen.

I'm still inclined to say they are true olives. I wish someone could say for sure but neither he nor I know any experts on B. olivaceus.

Hmm, can B. olivaceus and B. fuliginosus intergrade? That would explain a lot.

Some pics showing the shape of the head, the eyes and the tail. The females are in shed. They are the size of nightcrawlers and very wriggly so pics aren't super sharp.

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r669/Serpentine_Dream/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_143249_zpsmyggg8ht.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/Serpentine_Dream/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_143249_zpsmyggg8ht.jpg.html)

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r669/Serpentine_Dream/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_143442_zpsafn1g8vm.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/Serpentine_Dream/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_143442_zpsafn1g8vm.jpg.html)

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r669/Serpentine_Dream/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_143610_zpsj8kipgyc.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/Serpentine_Dream/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_143610_zpsj8kipgyc.jpg.html)

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r669/Serpentine_Dream/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_144124_zpsabhwympx.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/Serpentine_Dream/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_144124_zpsabhwympx.jpg.html)

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r669/Serpentine_Dream/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_143957_zpsdglgtzq1.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/Serpentine_Dream/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_143957_zpsdglgtzq1.jpg.html)

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r669/Serpentine_Dream/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_161308_zpse8agktnq.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/Serpentine_Dream/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170606_161308_zpse8agktnq.jpg.html)

[SerpentineDream]

Double post.

[ThirteenRavens]

I'm of no help, but I love AHS!! Congrats on the gorgeous babies :)

[Magdalen]

Oooooh nice I might need one of your babies :D

[dannybgoode]

Not true olive I think with divided scales like that. They should be single all the way down but happy to stand corrected by someone more knowledgeable in house snakes.

Beautiful either way.

[SerpentineDream]

They really are beautiful. I love them no matter what they are.

The problem is that I need to know exactly what they are before selling any future babies. I don't want to advertise them as being one species or another and end up selling a false bill of goods.

Does anyone know a house snake expert / specialist who might be able to provide a positive ID on the little guys?

ETA: I have no idea why Photobucket suddenly decided that the tail of a snake is suddenly a violation of TOS. :lol

[Aaron_S]

They really are beautiful. I love them no matter what they are.

The problem is that I need to know exactly what they are before selling any future babies. I don't want to advertise them as being one species or another and end up selling a false bill of goods.

Does anyone know a house snake expert / specialist who might be able to provide a positive ID on the little guys?

ETA: I have no idea why Photobucket suddenly decided that the tail of a snake is suddenly a violation of TOS. :lol

Unfortunately I don't know any experts left on the forum. There used to be a guy but he hasn't been around in years. I'll try to find him when I have a bit more free time to look through the members list.

I thought subspecies couldn't interbreed? It would explain the dark colouration if B. Fug. and B. Oliveceaus (sp?) bred.

[SerpentineDream]

Most can't interbreed. They'll happily mate but no eggs will come of it. Apparently there are a couple of subspecies that can. I wonder if B. fuliginosis and B. olivaceus are two of the few that can actually produce offspring from a pairing.

There's a lot of variability among true olives though. Some are almost black, some are teal and some are the classic olive color. The eyes (if they do stay dark) and the subcaudal scales are what make me think "intergrade?"

[TLD]

I'm fairly certain fulis and olivaceus can interbreed. Otherwise I don't know where we would get all the hobby olives from. The African house snake FB group has some experienced people in there that you can post up pictures of your guys to get opinions on. I tried to give you a link to an example of a true boaedon olivaceus but apparently I cant post links. So if you google "the fate of serpents bruce G Marcot" you'll see one, its dead though.

Nice grab snatching up those black housies btw. I've got five house snakes, two black ones and I'll tell you that ad was really tempting.

[SerpentineDream]

Not sure if it helps with IDing them but these guys seem to be strongly arboreal. They have prehensile tails and when I took the sisters out of their deli cup they wrapped their tails together in an attempt to resist being removed. All 3 of them climb all over everything available to them. Despite their current dark coloration when the light hits them just so they have a distinctive green iridescent sheen.

I seem to recall recently reading that most of the "true olives" that people have are actually B. fuliginosus x B. olivaceus intergrades so there is agreement with you there that those two subspecies can interbreed. I found a defunct house snake forum that has been inactive since 2013 but it did have a lot of information.

Will check out that photo. Thank you!

I just joined Facebook for the sole purpose of finding the African house snake group after a decade of stubborn resistance. :P Assimilation was inevitable.

Welcome to 2017, self.

[TLD]

Sorry you had to join facebook. I only use it for the reptile groups honestly, and sometimes I even question how much benefit I get out of them. The AHS group is good though. Not super active but you can get input from knowledgeable people like Erik Paterson and such.

All of my capensis and fuliginosus have a good grip and like to grab onto things. I usually take out furnishings around where they're hiding before I remove the snake because otherwise I'm bringing out a stick or hide with the animal. Its funny how good of a grip they have because given a choice my females spend most of their time buried in aspen.

One fun thing you'll notice with your black housies (if they're black fulis, not sure about inornatus or olivaceus) is that they will have frequent slight color changes. Sometimes even over the course of a day. I haven't personally taken photos documenting it yet but Lilo Gentilcopain talks about it a little bit on his care sheet page about house snakes. I still cant link things but if you google his name and fuliginosus I think its like the third link.

[Magdalen]

I was just about to suggest the FB group :) they can get you in touch with some breeders in Africa ... hopefully.

[SerpentineDream]

TLD, those pics were very sad but also helpful.

For those that want a look, here is the link. The Fate of Serpents (http://www.plexuseco.com/EPOW/EPOW-Archive/archive_2013/EPOW-130121.htm)

I'm having issues with Facebook locking me out after I made updates to the new account so haven't reached the house snake group yet. I will still get in contact with them to see if I can get a positive ID from someone.

However Danny is right: True olive house snakes have single subcaudal scales all the way down the tail, not just one under the cloaca.

These guys have mostly divided subcaudals and dark eyes that may (or may not) get redder with age per the seller. Otherwise the coloration and shape of the head are dead on for B. olivaceus.

At this point I am *almost* certain that they are B. olivaceus x B. fuliginosus intergrades after all. These are commonly sold as "West African Olive House Snakes," though probably more commonly sold as "True Olive House Snakes." It would be easy enough to think they were exactly that.

If that is true, I will simply sell their future babies as West African Olive House snakes, natural B. olivaceus x B. fuliginosus intergrades from WC Ghanian grandparents. I think they're worth more than they were sold to me for, but not as much as a pure B. olivaceus. They are beautiful and unique.

We shall see! :)

[TLD]

These are my black fuliginosus.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/55c0eb436006a20546f13e9a44e43cf2/tumblr_oelonwXZUy1undlw1o1_1280.jpg

https://scontent.fsnc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/p720x720/17758437_10208805303830384_4005902625966767051_o.j pg?oh=9445100219068e59bb78b4aeb7d5ca06&oe=59A930B4

https://68.media.tumblr.com/bcf1bc2ec7319201516ced54a1dd489e/tumblr_ookfmyIZyj1undlw1o1_1280.jpg

https://68.media.tumblr.com/0826431389d47382e3cfa304ef2e1ae6/tumblr_ookfjh9ht81undlw1o1_1280.jpg

I would really like to show you a study from morocco about fuliginosus. It had specimens that look similar to yours.

[SerpentineDream]

Wow, I see the resemblance for sure. Those are some sharp-looking snakes.

Where they do differ is that the eyes protrude less in my specimens, the shape of the head is a bit different (more of a distinction between head and neck) and mine have rounder, smoother body scales.

I'd love to see the study. You should be able to post links very soon... IIRC after 10 posts?

[TLD]

10 posts. Dang. I know I have one post that I tried to reply here that is queued for a moderator approval already from this morning. Not sure what words I used that flagged it.

You'll see the study if you google "morocco fuliginosus" first link. Compare the faded head of the adult to the faded head of the adult you posted. Also the dark juvies to the juvies you have.

[Tsubaki]

You should be able to posts links already now :)

[TLD]

You should be able to posts links already now :)

I sen't you a message with the screenshot, but I really can't. Seems I can't even post photos now because they need a url. Not super important though I suppose.

[TLD]

Per moderator advice I'm trying again.

Here is the link to the page about boaedon fuliginosus in Morocco (http://www.moroccoherps.com/en/ficha/Boaedon_fuliginosus/). Its more of a species overview about fuliginosus living in that country.

When you're able to get on the African house snake group you should be able to get input from experienced folks.

[SerpentineDream]

Looking at that article I see more similarities. While they don't look exactly like my guys I think the influence of B. fuliginosus is irrefutable, especially considering the lightening of the eyes and body scales from juvenile to adult (though this is mostly limited to the head in the Ghanian locality). I'm pretty confident that they are intergrades between B. olivaceus and B. fuliginosus by this point.

I e-mailed Erik Paterson and asked him to take a look. In the meantime I'm waiting for Facebook to decide that I'm not a security threat to my own account. ;)

[SerpentineDream]

The verdict is in from Erik Paterson: There are actually 2 possibilities.

One is that they are indeed intergrades between B. olivaceus and B. fuliginosus. He thought that not only can they intergrade but that many olives in the pet trade appear to have characteristics of both as mine do and are possibly intergrades between them. These are the "hobby olives" in the UK.

The second possibility is that they are a previously undescribed subspecies. He suspects that when molecular taxonimists have time to deal with house snakes again, many new cryptic subspecies may emerge. So the little guys could be something totally new.