Young Boa regurgitated

[lonewolf1253]

I've owned many snakes when I was younger. meaning in the early 80's and never had a problem other than mites which I easily took care of with very careful use of No-Pest, Vapona strips. But I won't get into mites as that's not my issue now. I bought a baby red-tail on 3-5-17 and everything was fine at first. Ate well. No mites. I have state of the art equipment now. Back in the day, I never paid much attention to humidity or temps and all my adult snakes thrived. Boa's, Burmese, Retics, even a Rock python. I don't recommend those btw. So now I buy a seemingly health baby red-tail and do everything by the book and its not shedding properly and regurgitated its last mouse. It did eat it tail first but that's not uncommon. So I'm wondering if I just bought an unhealthy snake or am I just being too impatient?
If I could do it over, I would have gotten an adult. Anyone have any experience with regurgitation? Prey was same as usual. Warm and not too big. He regurgitated it over 24 hours later but it seemed hardly digested. Just wet.

[TRD]

What exactly are your temps and humidity, also type enclosure (glass, plastic, wood, ...). I don't keep any large constrictors, but, illnesses aside, it can also simply be too cold or the animal is slightly stressed.

[Andy_G]

Also, how often are you feeding the boa?

[lonewolf1253]

I have him in a 20 gallon glass terrarium for now. Heat and humidity seem O.K. I have an under tank heat pad and a small overhead 60 watt ceramic emitter. I mist about twice a day. This is temporary until it gets larger. If it gets larger. I was feeding every 4 or 5 days which may have been too often. I did gently move him to the other side of the cage to clean some feces so that may have stressed him out. I'm thinking I should just leave him alone for awhile other than changing his water. He's a baby so probably easily stressed. I'm used to larger adults so maybe I should back off from the little guy and let him chill out and then try feeding him a small fuzzy in a week or so. I appreciate your replies. I've never had a baby snake before so I'm in the learning process.

[riddick07]

Are the heating elements being regulated? Get a temp gun to measure the temperatures and an acurite or something comparable to measure humidity. You can find both on Amazon.

Every 4-5 days is way too often. Try every 10-14 days instead if he is as young as he sounds. I would wait 2-3 weeks to try feeding again and smaller than average meal.

Temps should be hot 86-88, cold 75-80, ambient around 78-80. Humidity I aim for 70-80% but little lower or higher isn't too bad. Sounds like he is in a bigger cage for a young boa make sure it has a decent amount of hides and cover.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I'd give the snake 2-3 weeks like riddick said before offering a fuzzy, and like they said I'd feed it every 10-14 days. Most people start them out on 7-10 days, but I have much luck feeding my neos/juveniles every 10-14 days from the get-go. This is especially true if it is a BCC, which often have issues with regurgitation when overfed. BCI can regurge as well when pushed too far, but generally they have pretty tough stomachs. They still benefit from the same conservative feeding schedule you'd give a BCC though.

Make sure all heating elements are on a thermostat. I do not recommend dimmers or rheostats because they will not automatically control the temperatures.

[lonewolf1253]

Thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it and will follow it.

[lonewolf1253]

Just a follow up on my Boa. I disregarded advise and fed him three days after he regurgitated. No problems. I read a scientific study which stated that snakes only secrete gastric juices when they have eaten. It does not need a 2 or 3 week waiting period to replenish gut flora. Also I do not agree with the feeding schedule I was advised to follow. He's a baby and from what I've read they can eat every 5 to 7 days and not be considered "Powerfed". I did take the advice on getting a thermostat and a temperature gauge though. Just my experience. I don't profess to be an expert.

[Andy_G]

Just because you did it and it worked, doesn't mean you should have...glad it did work out for you, however. Would love a link to that study supporting that it's okay to feed right after they regurgitate...

[lonewolf1253]

Hmm, I can't find it now. It was from the U.K. I know that. Seems to be quite a large percentage of snake lovers there. I never really have gone by the book when it comes to snakes or my wolfdogs because I believe they are all different. Take mites for instance. I would never buy any topical remedy. I've cured all my snakes in the past with small sections of "No-pest" strips placed in small containers and placed in their cages for 2 or 3 hrs. at a time until they are eradicated. Unlike topical solutions, it permeates every nook and cranny including under the snakes scales. With careful use, it is 100% effective. Brand name, Vapona Strips. Can be bought on Amazon for 4 or 5 dollars. Best to remove the water when using this method. And it can kill if used too long.
But he's doing great. I appreciate any advice I receive. Doesn't mean I'll follow it, but I keep an open mind.

[Tsubaki]

The poison in Vapona strips (2,2-dichloorvinyldimethylfosfate (dichlorvos pesticide)) can build up in the fatty tissues, so if you treat a few times too often or if the animal uses its reserves they might start to experience severe issues. (In some cases even a short time exposure was fatal, depending on species/age etc) There are several documented deaths from the use of this pesticide. Don't you think if it was risk-free (Or very low risk) that everyone would do it, as it is a quick way to get rid of mites? The fact is, it's not risk-free. It used to be an immensely popular way to treat for mites, but people didn't think the risk was worth it and I agree on that. You don't have to do anything by the book, but you're more than welcome to believe the many people who have lost animals because of dichlorvos poisoning.

I did not write the following, but it is useful.
Vapona is an organophosphate poison used as an insecticide and also in human and veterinary medicine. Accurate dosage is essential, as the safety margin is very small indeed. This means, in practice, giving a precisely measured amount to each individual patient whose body mass is known exactly - something quite impossible to achieve simply by putting a bit of Vapona strip in a cage of unknown volume containing an animal whose mass has not been very precisely determined.
Vapona is absorbed by all routes, such as skin, lungs and gut.
It is what is called an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. Acetylcholine is a chemical that allows a nerve impulse to pass from the end plate of a motor nerve into a muscle fibre, thus causing a contraction. As soon as the message has been transmitted, the acetylcholine must be destroyed by an enzyme, acetylcholinesterase, to allow the nerve to resume its resting state in readiness for the next message. If it is not destroyed, neuromuscular function grinds to a halt - and so does the whole animal! Vapona acts by preventing the enzyme from destroying the acetylcholine.
Acetylcholine is found not only in the junctions between nerves and muscles throughout the body, but also in neural synapses in the brain, and in red blood cells. Too much Vapona is really not a good thing at all ...
Non-lethal overdoses of Vapona are treated in the same way as poisoning by organophosphates in general, but this is something that must be done by a vet. The outlook for Vapona poisoning in reptiles is not great.
One other thing - Vapona is fat-soluble, and can be stored in the fat bodies of reptiles for quite a long time. When the animal starts using up its fat reserves, Vapona can be liberated and cause signs of poisoning long after exposure.


Follow it, don't follow it. But using a method that has been proven over and over to have great risk attached to it, just because it's 'fast and easy'. Does not sit well with me.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Sure they CAN be fed every 5-7 days, but it takes a minimum of 7-18 days to digest their meal (as per the study by Stephen Secor for PYTHONS - which have a faster metabolism than boas and metabolize fat much more efficiently), plus time for their digestive tissues to return to normal size. Feeding every 5-7 days IS power feeding, regardless of what you read. Baby boas do best on a 10-14 day schedule, and adults should eat every 1-2 months.

If you feed your boa every 5-7 days, he is going to grow extremely quickly, get obese, and have a shortened lifespan. Snakes are built for famine, and hold onto extra fat extremely well. It could take several years of constant dieting to get him to lose weight in the future, and you will run a high risk of running into fatty liver disease, which is fatal. You could cut his life expectancy from 20-30+ years to 6-10 years feeding him in that way.

As far as the regurgitation, feeding them so soon after a regurge could lead to chronic regurgitation syndrome, which can kill them. A regurge is extremely damaging to them and they need time to recover, not only the gut flora (which is bacteria that live in the stomach not digestive enzymes) but also from the physical damage of pushing out a whole prey item.

[Aaron_S]

Just a follow up on my Boa. I disregarded advise and fed him three days after he regurgitated. No problems. I read a scientific study which stated that snakes only secrete gastric juices when they have eaten. It does not need a 2 or 3 week waiting period to replenish gut flora. Also I do not agree with the feeding schedule I was advised to follow. He's a baby and from what I've read they can eat every 5 to 7 days and not be considered "Powerfed". I did take the advice on getting a thermostat and a temperature gauge though. Just my experience. I don't profess to be an expert.

I've owned many snakes when I was younger. meaning in the early 80's and never had a problem other than mites which I easily took care of with very careful use of No-Pest, Vapona strips. But I won't get into mites as that's not my issue now. I bought a baby red-tail on 3-5-17 and everything was fine at first. Ate well. No mites. I have state of the art equipment now. Back in the day, I never paid much attention to humidity or temps and all my adult snakes thrived. Boa's, Burmese, Retics, even a Rock python. I don't recommend those btw. So now I buy a seemingly health baby red-tail and do everything by the book and its not shedding properly and regurgitated its last mouse. It did eat it tail first but that's not uncommon. So I'm wondering if I just bought an unhealthy snake or am I just being too impatient?
If I could do it over, I would have gotten an adult. Anyone have any experience with regurgitation? Prey was same as usual. Warm and not too big. He regurgitated it over 24 hours later but it seemed hardly digested. Just wet.

Hmm, I can't find it now. It was from the U.K. I know that. Seems to be quite a large percentage of snake lovers there. I never really have gone by the book when it comes to snakes or my wolfdogs because I believe they are all different. Take mites for instance. I would never buy any topical remedy. I've cured all my snakes in the past with small sections of "No-pest" strips placed in small containers and placed in their cages for 2 or 3 hrs. at a time until they are eradicated. Unlike topical solutions, it permeates every nook and cranny including under the snakes scales. With careful use, it is 100% effective. Brand name, Vapona Strips. Can be bought on Amazon for 4 or 5 dollars. Best to remove the water when using this method. And it can kill if used too long.
But he's doing great. I appreciate any advice I receive. Doesn't mean I'll follow it, but I keep an open mind.

You kept snakes in the 1980's. Almost 40 plus years ago. A lot has changed since then in the reptile world. I'm sure you've noticed when you went to buy housing supplies and what not.

I want to restate that vapona is no longer looked at as a mite treatment due to it's poison amount. Reason I mention this is to hopefully open you up that things change and there's better ways to do things than we did before.
Yes your animals lived in the 80's with vapona but you didn't mention the 90s. The species you kept were long lived so do you know how long until they died? Maybe they had lasting effects from the poison without you knowing.

Anyway I'm off topic. I think you were fine in offering food to your animal shortly after regurge. That knowledge has been around for a little bit but there's a lot of push back on it. I personally wouldn't attempt until next feeding day because I'm not going out of my way for one animal to eat but it's fine.

As for feeding frequency. You definitely are powerfeeding at every 4 days for a boa. Yup there's lots of people who say it isn't but it is. My recommendation is every 7 - 10 days with a smaller meal than you would have offered in the 80s.

[lonewolf1253]

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate the time you all took to respond. He's never had mites but I will think twice about using Vapona if he ever gets them. As for feeding I will cut him back to a small fuzzy every 7 to 10 days. I haven't been feeding him too large a prey and he certainly doesn't look fat but I don't want him to be so I'll make it a point to wait.
My problem is that after 4 or 5 days he gets into that feeding position and I have this tendency to think, Well, O.K. he's hungry. So I have to remember he's a snake and not a dog. Self-restraint on my part is in order. I want him to live a long healthy life. I'm not sure what became of the snakes I once had. I had to sell them all when I joined the military. Once again, thank you all for the good advice.

[TRD]

haha, yea that's a known feeling... when I feed one snake and the one next to it is bouncing off the sides of his viv because he sees/smells mouse... yet he just ate a few days back :) They'll have to wait. Feeding them too much is not healthy. Snakes are not effective predators in the wild (like for example cats). Their whole system is build in being successful once in a while, their whole lifestyle is adjusted to it. However they will eat until they are completely and utterly filled given the chance because they normally do not know when the next feeding will arrive, could be months, but this is not the case in captivity.

[lonewolf1253]

Yup, snakes are feast or famine feeders. They'll eat till they puke because they may not get another for months. Like I said, I'm going to cut him way back.
It does seem be growing slower than I expected and the snakes I purchased previously were large animals to begin with. So having a juvenile is new to me.
But, its good to get them that way I think. He's totally docile and I'm sure he'll be a big boy in due time. Still skittish, buy he's young. The big snakes I had before were docile too and I'd get them out for hours and it didn't stress them at all. Except for the Rock Python. I could get him out O.K. Only got bit twice. But he'd defecate when handled. High strung and aggressive. I actually sold him for 200 dollars and this was back in 1981. Hopefully, whoever bought him was an expert in aggressive snakes.
But, you all have given me good advice and I thank you for it!

[Andy_G]

I'll be honest...it's really good to see an old timer be receptive to new info. Good on you! ;)

[TRD]

Rock pythons are a special case :D I never seen a calm and docile one. All hiss loudly and strike.

Boa's grow slow, metabolize slow...

Most regurgitation problems are related to temperature (too cold) and feeding too much at once, so you may want to start there.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I agree, it's nice to see you so receptive to new information. :)

As far as the growth, when fed properly boas grow quite slow. I have a 2 year old female that just got to about 4' on small rats and another 2 year old female that's 3.5' on weaned rats. My 16 month old male isn't even 3' yet, he eats large adult mice. I don't expect any of them to reach adult sizes before 5-6 years old.

[lonewolf1253]

You guys have mistaken me for an old man! I'm 57 and look about 42. And I think like a 25 year old. You wouldn't want me to refer to you as kids would you? LOL, I'm kidding! No offence taken and none given. I like this forum, some very knowledgeable reptile enthusiasts and I appreciate all the advice I can get. Dogs are my preference but they tie me down too much. I'll be owning reptiles from now on. Say, I posted a few pics of my little Boa. It was sold to me as a Red-Tail. Can anyone tell by the pics if its a BCC or BCI? Also, Is there any way to tell if it's male or female without being probed? My little buddy needs a name! Its tail does seem to taper abruptly so I'm guessing it's a male. I could post better and clearer pics if needed. Even some of us, "Old Timers" know a bit about computers. I program them for a living. Industrial CNC. Thanks

[bigsnakegirl785]

I can't find the pictures, so I can't weigh in on the ID, but "normally" females are the ones with the short tails that stop abruptly. When they're babies it's really hard to tell how their tails really are, idk if it's an illusion or not, but their tails seem to change appearance in length/girth as they grow so you might not be able to tell early on.

Plus, males can have stumpy tails and females can have long thin ones so it's not reliable in the least.

It's not 100% (more reliable than visually telling), but a good way to sex baby boas is by palpating. You put your thumb on the bottom of their tail and your forefinger on top and gently run your fingers down their tail with gentle pressure. You need to go at least 50-60% down the tail, but if you feel something like little b.b.s or a rubber band snapping that's the end of the hemipenes and it's male. You do still have to exercise some caution when doing this because you can damage male's hemipenes and female's scent glands if you squeeze too hard. Just the gentlest pressure, enough you can feel.