What happened to discussion/debate in the reptile community?

[jjhill001]

I don't know if its because I've been doing this too long or what and apologies for the mini-rant but why is it that every time someone does something differently or has a new idea do people feel the need to be rude and completely dismissive to any kind of idea or different way of doing things? Usually followed by someone regurgitating information from a caresheet.

Why is it that people believe that it's impossible to have an improvement or different method on <insert standard> with animals that are now more commonly kept?

Everyone used to do everything a little bit differently with varying levels of success. We exchanged ideas, theories, methodologies and I feel that has just completely stopped. Why is that?

[dannybgoode]

People are stuck in the past-myths have become fact, people don't want to learn, the reading of proper scientific papers is a lost art and people prefer anecdotes from their mates mum's uncle who's a breeder.

/rant mode off

[jjhill001]

People are stuck in the past-myths have become fact, people don't want to learn, the reading of proper scientific papers is a lost art and people prefer anecdotes from their mates mum's uncle who's a breeder.

/rant mode off

My biggest pet peeve is "every caresheet says it". Yeah well if you look at most caresheets 90% of them are paraphrased or outright copy pasted versions of 1 or 2 of them.

[dannybgoode]

My biggest pet peeve is "every caresheet says it". Yeah well if you look at most caresheets 90% of them are paraphrased or outright copy pasted versions of 1 or 2 of them.

Hence why myths turn into fact...

[dannybgoode]

My biggest pet peeve is "every caresheet says it". Yeah well if you look at most caresheets 90% of them are paraphrased or outright copy pasted versions of 1 or 2 of them.

Hence why myths turn into fact...

[dave himself]

I do most of my research from other keepers or breeder's. I don't think I've ever done a setup off a care sheet. I'd rather trust someone with experience. To many armchair experts out there, part of the reason I left fakebook :)

[Andy_G]

The following statement is NOT aimed at anyone in particular.

I've bred multiple species for the last 15 years or so in the hobby, and out of those species, I have raised babies I produced successfully who have then bred and produced as well. I am all for new ways of doing things and embrace legitimate information backed by scientific studies...but there are SO MANY people online who have been keeping for less than 5 years and think they know more than me because they read something in a book or on google and can't wait to regurgitate that information somehow because it aligns with their opinion. Reading something is different from experiencing or doing it, and it could easily be argued that a lot of new things coming into the hobby are to appeal to or pacify the keeper and not enhance the lives of the kept. Time and time again new people will ask for advice and either someone who is just regurgitating info will weigh in with something off base or unrelated, or even something that could cause harm... or the newbie asking for the advice won't listen to advice given because they don't like what they hear...which gets old and definitely contributes to what you're saying...why bother with someone who already knows it all? That's why debate is rare in the hobby lately. I still debate/share ideas in person with those familiar to me...but strangers on the internet is a different ball game.

[eminart]

The overwhelming amount of regurgitated "information" by relative newbies on the internet drives me insane. It's not just reptiles either. Any hobby you get into, it's the same. I think people just want to be experts. The easiest way to become an "expert" is to memorize a bunch of crap on the internet (right or wrong) and repeat it back to others.

[GyGbeetle]

I'm a newbie, and I also do medical research, so gathering data and evidence has been really fun. One thing I've noticed with even the older keepers is their unwillingness to change, even when new scientific discoveries have been presented to them. It's like when someone says "I've been doing this longer than you've been alive". It seems more prolific in this industry that old habits are not easily changed.

Tried to have an enlightened discussion with "experts" and "newbies" alike is challenging. Coupled with the fact that there isn't a whole lot of research or information to back up any new ideas makes it even more difficult to have intelligent repertoire with others in the industry.

Newbies want to share their newbie-ness. Experts want to push their long standing ideas. But no one is bridging the gap with all of the latest research available to them.

From my perspective, being a newbie means I have absolutely no say in my own experience, research, etc from so-called experts because I just haven't been at this long enough. Which has been frustrating for me, because I have a medical degree, do medical research for a living, have plenty of mammalian experience, and can take a scientific study from the reptile community and understand it and apply it pretty quickly given my background. But that hasn't really meant its weight in gold apparently in this community, because I have the label of "newbie".

And it's not just Facebook where I've faced these challenges with aggressive "opinions" either. There have been posts on forums like this website that have also had similar reactions, which is unfortunate, because me as a "newbie" come to these places for open, engaging discussion to figure out the best possible solution from those with more experience, not to have it shoved down my throat more often than not, and made to feel bad when I actually have data to back up my disagreement.

I think all we can do as individuals is to ensure that we disseminate our information in the most respectful way possible, and if there is no productive communication, to smile, nod our heads, and move on.

[eminart]

Personally, I would never discourage any "newbie" that has done her research and is actually thinking. The "newbie" stuff that I was referring to, and that frustrates me to no end, is like 10 years ago when someone somewhere said that mealworms cause impaction in leopard geckos, then it was spread all over the internet like gospel. You had 12 year olds telling professional breeders that feeding mealworms would kill their animals. This, despite the fact that many had fed mealworms exclusively for many years.

Or the hysterics about sand. OMG sand will kill everything! Get your lizard, tortoise, horse, children, whatever off of it!

It's the lack of logical, rational discussion that gets me. Everything seems to be black and white because someone read something somewhere. It's usually not that simple.

[GyGbeetle]

Agreed. I've had some 16 year olds tell me the what-for regarding snakes. I'm starting to work trade shows now, and I have a personality of a brown snake (shy and withdrawn, but will kill you when provoked), so I'm not entirely sure how I'll be able to handle it when some of these younger kids come over and spit out "did you know xyz? It's fact!". I may be banned from any and all trade shows after this next one.

[jjhill001]

Agreed. I've had some 16 year olds tell me the what-for regarding snakes. I'm starting to work trade shows now, and I have a personality of a brown snake (shy and withdrawn, but will kill you when provoked), so I'm not entirely sure how I'll be able to handle it when some of these younger kids come over and spit out "did you know xyz? It's fact!". I may be banned from any and all trade shows after this next one.

"Thats interesting but in my experience" practice that one in a mirror so you xon't get banned.

[Aaron_S]

I don't know if its because I've been doing this too long or what and apologies for the mini-rant but why is it that every time someone does something differently or has a new idea do people feel the need to be rude and completely dismissive to any kind of idea or different way of doing things? Usually followed by someone regurgitating information from a caresheet.

Why is it that people believe that it's impossible to have an improvement or different method on <insert standard> with animals that are now more commonly kept?

Everyone used to do everything a little bit differently with varying levels of success. We exchanged ideas, theories, methodologies and I feel that has just completely stopped. Why is that?

There is no quick and easy answer to your question. (It's a great one though!)

Some of it has been spoken about here already. To add, on the internet it gets difficult for reasons mentioned but in addition, it's fairly anonymous and you can say what you want and how you want it and not face any real consequences.

In addition I found there was far more exchange of information when the discussion was presented on very few general forum sites like this one. Then people started making species or geographical area specific forums. This went straight to facebook and making groups. This led to segregation. Where people who share similar views can talk to others with similar views and silence those opposing them or disagreeing with them.

Here you generally have to play nice.


I'll be the first to admit I can be a little harsh to new ideas from new people however I will listen and think on the idea for awhile. I don't believe in drastic changes when something is working but I'm open to listening and seeing and how the new idea works for a period of time before I jump on board and do it myself.

For example, I used to see the rack vs. tank debate in a black/white manner. I no longer do and haven't for years. My belief is I prefer racks for many reasons and if someone with a pet wants to modify a tank to suit/work for them then that's their choice. Is the animal well kept? If so then I don't care anymore. I'll point out pros and cons of both and then let them make the choice.

[Aaron_S]

I'll add an additional idea.

It's not just that "newbies" come in and buy 3 animals, produce some and call themselves a breeder then rattle out some care info like they know everything. It's partly the fault of the industry itself. It rotates FAST. If you've been here for 5 years then you're a veteran. Most people get in and out within 2 - 3 years. The passion fades during this time and either they stick to their own hobby or get out completely.

This leaves a lot of people to be "veterans" who don't have that much experience afterall.

My personal pet peeve is being quoted a "top breeder" who may have written a book (the dying medium that with enough dollars anyone can write one.) They can be wrong too and I've known many "top breeders" to suck or to give me differing experiences yet have same results. No one is infallible (except me of course).

[jjhill001]

I'll add an additional idea.

It's not just that "newbies" come in and buy 3 animals, produce some and call themselves a breeder then rattle out some care info like they know everything. It's partly the fault of the industry itself. It rotates FAST. If you've been here for 5 years then you're a veteran. Most people get in and out within 2 - 3 years. The passion fades during this time and either they stick to their own hobby or get out completely.

This leaves a lot of people to be "veterans" who don't have that much experience afterall.

My personal pet peeve is being quoted a "top breeder" who may have written a book (the dying medium that with enough dollars anyone can write one.) They can be wrong too and I've known many "top breeders" to suck or to give me differing experiences yet have same results. No one is infallible (except me of course).

Its the differing methods yielding the same results thing that doesn't bother me at all as long as someone can use a reasonable amount of logic to explain why they are doing it. If their animals are healthy who cares? It used to be every animal was kept on gravel or shavings. If we interviewed an average reptile keeper from 30-40 years ago that you could keep leopard geckos or snakes on paper they would have called you a nut (I'm sure some did keep them this way but I know most of them old *** books didn't recommend that.)

In reference to your other comment (no need to muddy up the thread more than I have by responding to everything lol). I think you may have hit the nail right on the head with the specific species forums/groups and people getting too ingrained into various hive minds.

It's very easy now to probably get into a group on facebook that would tell you that there are 0 cons to a naturalistic setup, just as easy as it is to get into a group that will tell you that if you don't keep your X on paper it will 100% die an immediate and horrible death and it will probably take the cat down with it. Probably could do this with every dang thing in the hobby.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[GyGbeetle]

"Thats interesting but in my experience" practice that one in a mirror so you xon't get banned.

Oh, it's sooooo hard to!!!!!!!!! My best get-away-quick is to smile, nod, and say I have something pressing over here. I've done "that's interesting but in my experience" bit before, and the responses have made my blood boil. So now I just smile, and nod. Smile and nod.

[trailblazer295]

With the internet it has largely become keyboard warriors and bringing out the worst in people. There are still places you can go to have a reasonable conversation about differing methods. From my experience on forums for a wide range of hobbies the global ones tend to be the most even keeled and best sources of information, local forums tend to be more aggressive with a 'my way or the highway' mentality. Seems the ones with members from all over the globe have a better balance with people willing to listen to new ideas instead of instantly saying NO YOU'RE WRONG. On any forum you'll have people that won't be open to new ideas, you'll have newbies or people that are asking questions but really only want answers validating what they already believe and you'll have people that will ask questions wanting help and insight from others.

Caresheets are largely a joke, read a dozen and half will contradict the other half with widely ranging info. Humidity is rarely mentioned in detail, temperatures range a lot and cage size is all over the map. Some will have a cage that easily fits inside another one. I turn to people who have already kept the animal as an adult and use that as a baseline. Due to my smaller collection and desire to give space I might upsize a specific cage because I can.

When you're on a specific forum for a period of time you begin to learn who you deem reliable information sources and who is stuck in their own ways no matter what.

[dannybgoode]

The internet is a double edged sword I think. Yes its all to easy to come across 'experts' who are anything but but by the same token you can get to hook up with genuine experts who are passionate about the hobby and who you would never have met pre-internet days.

When I was researching the scrubs I dropped a line to respected breeder and he was very happy to chew the cue and chat through all my questions and I received further help from another contact who has significant experience with them. Similarly with the olives I know perhaps one of the only other people in the uk who has a pair and he was able to verify what the store had told me about them. I trust the store entirely but when spending that amount of money and when considering breeding etc knowing I have someone on hand who can help is invaluable.

By the same token of one more person on a particular Facebook group tries to tell me that leopard geckos and bearded dragons should only be kept on vinyl tiles or paper towels then I'll scream...

[Aaron_S]

Its the differing methods yielding the same results thing that doesn't bother me at all as long as someone can use a reasonable amount of logic to explain why they are doing it. If their animals are healthy who cares? It used to be every animal was kept on gravel or shavings. If we interviewed an average reptile keeper from 30-40 years ago that you could keep leopard geckos or snakes on paper they would have called you a nut (I'm sure some did keep them this way but I know most of them old *** books didn't recommend that.)

In reference to your other comment (no need to muddy up the thread more than I have by responding to everything lol). I think you may have hit the nail right on the head with the specific species forums/groups and people getting too ingrained into various hive minds.

It's very easy now to probably get into a group on facebook that would tell you that there are 0 cons to a naturalistic setup, just as easy as it is to get into a group that will tell you that if you don't keep your X on paper it will 100% die an immediate and horrible death and it will probably take the cat down with it. Probably could do this with every dang thing in the hobby.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I'm okay if the cat is going down too! :rolleyes:

[regi375]

I've peeked in on several different forums, and generally what I've found is "It has to be done this way or the animal will die." I asked a question on a bearded dragon forum, and basically got bombed with responses telling me how to care for the animal. None of them even answering my question.
I've found it difficult to get reliable information most of the time. Resorting to writing down the different information I come across and comparing it. Then coming up with my own "care sheet" that I use as a guideline for keeping the species. Adding in my own observations of the animal and experience with time. Such as with my Jungle Carpet Python. She's been attempting to climb a lot, hence add in more branches/perch. Even though I'm still a bit green in keeping reptiles, I feel some of my experience is still valuable. I've found some individuals closed-minded to it however. It's just about finding the right group of people and going what works for you and the animal.

[GyGbeetle]

I've peeked in on several different forums, and generally what I've found is "It has to be done this way or the animal will die." I asked a question on a bearded dragon forum, and basically got bombed with responses telling me how to care for the animal. None of them even answering my question.
I've found it difficult to get reliable information most of the time. Resorting to writing down the different information I come across and comparing it. Then coming up with my own "care sheet" that I use as a guideline for keeping the species. Adding in my own observations of the animal and experience with time. Such as with my Jungle Carpet Python. She's been attempting to climb a lot, hence add in more branches/perch. Even though I'm still a bit green in keeping reptiles, I feel some of my experience is still valuable. I've found some individuals closed-minded to it however. It's just about finding the right group of people and going what works for you and the animal.

^^ all of this. Even irl, when I'm at a trade show, I get so much unsolicited advice when someone hears me ask a question about my xyz animal. Or when someone else is asking me a question about xyz animal. Most of the advice doesn't even address the question I initially had.

And I cannot tell you how many times I've heard a certain animal isn't arboreal, because all the care sheets say they aren't. While I take pictures of my non-arboreal animal climbing a tree. Hey, I'm not trying to argue with anyone, and maybe my particular species never got the memo that they were only supposed to be terrestrial, or only supposed to be 123.

[Tiny Boidae]

I don't really feel like I have much say in this, but I've noticed a lot of close-minded people not only in the hobby, but the world in general. No one's really willing to listen to the other half or admit that they're wrong. Debate is pointless because no one's willing to say "Okay maybe you're right" or change what they're doing no matter what you say. Vanity is a cultural norm nowadays, and it's driving away at the extinction of intelligent debate. After all, someone's feelings might get hurt!

[regi375]

I don't really feel like I have much say in this, but I've noticed a lot of close-minded people not only in the hobby, but the world in general. No one's really willing to listen to the other half or admit that they're wrong. Debate is pointless because no one's willing to say "Okay maybe you're right" or change what they're doing no matter what you say. Vanity is a cultural norm nowadays, and it's driving away at the extinction of intelligent debate. After all, someone's feelings might get hurt!

Lol, wouldn't want that. I absolutely love an intelligent debate though. Too many people let their emotions flare. It's unfortunate, because then it just turns into an argument.

[jjhill001]

^^ all of this. Even irl, when i'm at a trade show, i get so much unsolicited advice when someone hears me ask a question about my xyz animal. Or when someone else is asking me a question about xyz animal. Most of the advice doesn't even address the question i initially had.

And i cannot tell you how many times i've heard a certain animal isn't arboreal, because all the care sheets say they aren't. While i take pictures of my non-arboreal animal climbing a tree. Hey, i'm not trying to argue with anyone, and maybe my particular species never got the memo that they were only supposed to be terrestrial, or only supposed to be 123.

How dare you allow your terrestrial animal to climb higher than 12 inches!!!!!!!

Terrestrial snake: Gopher snake, there is literally an episode of planet earth where a gopher snake scales a shear cliff to try and get baby birds. Totally terrestrial.

[Andy_G]

How dare you allow your terrestrial animal to climb higher than 12 inches!!!!!!!

Terrestrial snake: Gopher snake, there is literally an episode of planet earth where a gopher snake scales a shear cliff to try and get baby birds. Totally terrestrial.

...terrestrial snakes will still climb to get food, but if course I get what you're saying and agree. ;)

[RAD House]

I am all for intelligent discussion and i tend to agree the old guard can be hard headed. Let's be honest often their methods are functional or they wouldn't have been in the hobby for so long. On the flip side I often see new recruits injecting some opinion that they have not tested themselves as fact. To be honest this is far more dangerous than the functional advice of the experienced members of the hobby. For example I am part of a facebook bioactive reptile group that is vehemently against racks for ball pythons, but from what I can tell the people that post this stuff either own a couple ball pythons or even none at all. They often use a study that found ball pythons can be found it trees, but if you read the the study even they admit this is a small subset if the population and really only includes juvenile males. I am all for pushing the hobby forward but be sure to introduce your information for what it is, untested ideas not fact. Also please provide the sources you used to form said ideas, so that it can properly be discussed.

[Andy_G]

I am all for intelligent discussion and i tend to agree the old guard can be hard headed. Let's be honest often their methods are functional or they wouldn't have been in the hobby for so long. On the flip side I often see new recruits injecting some opinion that they have not tested themselves as fact. To be honest this is far more dangerous than the functional advice of the experienced members of the hobby. For example I am part of a facebook bioactive reptile group that is vehemently against racks for ball pythons, but from what I can tell the people that post this stuff either own a couple ball pythons or even none at all. They often use a study that found ball pythons can be found it trees, but if you read the the study even they admit this is a small subset if the population and really only includes juvenile males. I am all for pushing the hobby forward but be sure to introduce your information for what it is, untested ideas not fact. Also please provide the sources you used to form said ideas, so that it can properly be discussed.

I agree with this! "I own 1 xx and I disagree with everything and everyone that came before me" is NOT enough to form a new or well informed method of keeping to pass on to others.

[jjhill001]

People can combine theories and methodologies of care. If you go with a slightly larger than standard tubs you can actually run bio-active in them. I've never done it personally but I remember reading about it. For example I keep my snakes a little cooler than some people. I think 90 is way too hot for many snakes for a hotspot. My ambients are much more important to me and my snakes.

Some people literally freak when I say I don't really have that hot of a hotspot. I've found that this produces fewer shed problems and less reliance on overly high humidity. Now I make this work for me personally based on my house temps and climate I live in. Some people need that high hot spot just to keep their ambient temps within reason.

[dannybgoode]

People can combine theories and methodologies of care. If you go with a slightly larger than standard tubs you can actually run bio-active in them. I've never done it personally but I remember reading about it. For example I keep my snakes a little cooler than some people. I think 90 is way too hot for many snakes for a hotspot. My ambients are much more important to me and my snakes.

Some people literally freak when I say I don't really have that hot of a hotspot. I've found that this produces fewer shed problems and less reliance on overly high humidity. Now I make this work for me personally based on my house temps and climate I live in. Some people need that high hot spot just to keep their ambient temps within reason.

A proper hot spot is essential to allow for proper digestion of food and is somewhat species specific. There's European species that require much cooler hot spots and ambient temperatures than say a sub Saharan or Australian snake.

Often times a snake will only use the hotspot whilst digesting preferring other areas of the enclosure the rest of the time so absolutely ambient temperatures and a proper temperature gradient are important but so is a proper hot basking area.

If corns are local to you and you see one in the wild basking in a nice warm spot, grab your temperature gun and measure the temp and that'll give you a good idea what to aim for.

Of course temperature fluctuates through the season and day to night and I cycle my temperatures accordingly also.

[Andy_G]

People can combine theories and methodologies of care. If you go with a slightly larger than standard tubs you can actually run bio-active in them. I've never done it personally but I remember reading about it. For example I keep my snakes a little cooler than some people. I think 90 is way too hot for many snakes for a hotspot. My ambients are much more important to me and my snakes.

Some people literally freak when I say I don't really have that hot of a hotspot. I've found that this produces fewer shed problems and less reliance on overly high humidity. Now I make this work for me personally based on my house temps and climate I live in. Some people need that high hot spot just to keep their ambient temps within reason.

I've actually found the opposite with a lot of species in regards to basking temps...but if it works for you then that's that!