Pet Store Balls

[Scubadiver59]

Petco near me has a Ball that's been there for a bit...in a tiny 10gal aquarium. Well, I have this soft spot for strays, stopping to move turtles out of the road (even snappers!), so I'm thinking about bringing it home.

It isn't a small snake, about 1.5-2.0in girth, a bit larger than what I've seen in the pet stores so I'm guessing that's why it's still there. It has normal patterning, doesn't look underfed, can't tell about mites yet, but I have a 20gal I can put together rather quick w/UTH & light(s)--until I get another 40gal--and quarantine it in another room if need be.

I know the store managers so I'll have a talk with them and see if I can handle the snake to get a gauge of its demeanor. I'm not worried about coloration, I'm not that picky, but I guess I need either encouragement to make the move or someone to pull me back from the precipice and say let it go.

Any comments?

[trailblazer295]

What does the snake look like health wise? Generally the common thread is to not support poor care of reptiles in stores. I know about soft spot for animals though.

[Scubadiver59]

No sagging skin that I can see, no leftover shed clinging to the snake. Looks healthy enough, but I'll ask for a hands on and see what a closer looks turns up.

And I get the, "don't reward poor husbandry" shtick, but I'd be getting a Ball sooner or later anyway and this one has made it this far in the store, so...

Of course they have cats up front, not that I'd ever own one, again, but I'm leaning away from high maintenance pets as I get older--the cleaning and feeding schedules are more to my liking. :)

What does the snake look like health wise? Generally the common thread is to not support poor care of reptiles in stores. I know about soft spot for animals though.

[trailblazer295]

If the snake appears healthy and is eating properly then go for it. Ask how often/what is it eating as well.

[sattva]

It all boils down to room with me right now... I went to my local reptile store a while back and they had three full size normal balls for a $20.oo adoption fee... I felt sorry for them, but I can take them all home...

If you have the room to take it on, go for it... :yes:

[Scubadiver59]

I have a whole room full of room, a spare 20gal for for this Ball until I get a larger one, and even more room if I start stacking w/PVC enclosures.

I also have four upstairs bedrooms worth of space if I so desire to go overboard/expand. Me and the boys sleep on the futon downstairs, so who needs beds upstairs when you can have more snakes!! :rolleyes:

Besides, it keeps the relatives at bay, away...far away!!

...If you have the room to take it on, go for it... :yes:

[uhhlise_nacole]

I was in the same position also with a BP.. he had been there for a year and I would always check to see if he had sold. I'd beat myself up after every visit for torturing myself with temptation. finally I saw a kid holding him while screaming in terror for no apparent reason, that's when I decided this dude was coming home with me! I will admit it was an extremely rewarding feeling, especially if you're in the market for one and have the extra room/supplies.

[GyGbeetle]

I'd err on the side of caution when it comes to Petco purchases of animals. their reptiles, unlike their cats, are not adoptions, so you're feeding into their profit margin. They also have a reputation for poor care of reptiles; inexperienced staff, poor mandates from corporate, no vet budget for reptiles, etc. If you do purchase the ball you've had your eye on, quarantine that animal, and as a back-up, schedule a vet appointment immediately.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't purchase a reptile from Petco. Just know that they have just gotten into the exotic pet trade. They don't usually sell proper equipment or feed in the store on average to support these animals they have for purchase. Our local Petco has some beautiful balls, and they get a mite infestation nearly every quarter (due to not properly quarantining animals, or sterilizing their enclosures).

I think if you have a vet that the ball can see immediately, even if it's just a once over and a baseline blood panel, I'd go for it. The animal could look healthy from the glass enclosure it sits in, but you never know what may be lurking

[Aaron_S]

I'd err on the side of caution when it comes to Petco purchases of animals. their reptiles, unlike their cats, are not adoptions, so you're feeding into their profit margin. They also have a reputation for poor care of reptiles; inexperienced staff, poor mandates from corporate, no vet budget for reptiles, etc. If you do purchase the ball you've had your eye on, quarantine that animal, and as a back-up, schedule a vet appointment immediately.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't purchase a reptile from Petco. Just know that they have just gotten into the exotic pet trade. They don't usually sell proper equipment or feed in the store on average to support these animals they have for purchase. Our local Petco has some beautiful balls, and they get a mite infestation nearly every quarter (due to not properly quarantining animals, or sterilizing their enclosures).

I think if you have a vet that the ball can see immediately, even if it's just a once over and a baseline blood panel, I'd go for it. The animal could look healthy from the glass enclosure it sits in, but you never know what may be lurking

What may be lurking? I think vet visits and blood panels are overboard for a new snake (real rescues aside.)

Quarantine is a must but what are we really quarantining for?

1. Mites - Nix/PAM spray and treat the animal as if it has it when you receive it. Option B would be buy predator mites and release them in the enclosure with the new snake.

2. RI - These generally have symptoms already seen in the snake at purchase so I wouldn't worry about this beyond the first 3 - 5 days.

3. Internal parasites - Feed the snake. See it's poop. Is it solid with nothing in it? We're good. These are EXTREMELY rare these days.


Anything else is something generally out of our controls. Cancer or an internal organ problem? Nothing we can do after purchasing it and it's natural. It won't spread to your other snakes.


I get the not supporting PetCo thing and that's a fair statement but the OP doesn't have this moral issue for this case and that's fine. For the most part PetCo is now buying their reptiles from large scale breeders looking to move large volume at wholesale dollars.

Here in Canada I know for a fact some of my animals have ended up in large chain pet stores. I sell to a wholesaler who holds the contract for all the PetSmarts in Canada. So in reality I can walk into a PetSmart and know the ball pythons there come from quality stock. (I also know other breeders who sell to the same guy)

[Andy_G]

quarantine that animal, and as a back-up, schedule a vet appointment

I think if you have a vet that the ball can see immediately, even if it's just a once over and a baseline blood panel, I'd go for it. The animal could look healthy from the glass enclosure it sits in, but you never know what may be lurking

Total complete overkill and unnecessary, especially when so many vets out there will treat preventatively/unnecessarily.

[Scubadiver59]

Gonna commit to that one BP this weekend, after I put together that other tank. I'm glad that I bought a few larger hides and "swimming" pool, they're going to take up a lot of room in that 20gal, but I guess that's okay in the interim while I watch for mites.

Manager also offered 50% off the $89 snake, so I can live with the $45 (+tax) price and get that snake out of the small cage. Talking with the Manager and another employee, it's been there for a while, and I'm told it's never tried to bite...a good sign.

[akane]

Even if you ignore any moral standing Petco and Petsmart along with a few other major chains tend to only buy from very large breeding companies that often have a bad track record for their husbandry and health. Stores often will not take animals from local breeders due to being under contracts and may even require the person turning over an animal to pay them to take it and then "adopt" it out for a fee to end up with basically free money so it's pretty certain nothing in their standard displays are from a local or specialized breeder. I will buy from the chain pet stores sometimes because I lack sources but I would not assume anything with it's health except that there's a good chance it's been exposed to things and possibly stressed in it's life. I'd basically treat it as a rescue or wild caught when it comes to potential parasites, infections, poor feeding periods at points in it's life, and past shedding issues even if that's been sorted out now.

[Aaron_S]

Even if you ignore any moral standing Petco and Petsmart along with a few other major chains tend to only buy from very large breeding companies that often have a bad track record for their husbandry and health. Stores often will not take animals from local breeders due to being under contracts and may even require the person turning over an animal to pay them to take it and then "adopt" it out for a fee to end up with basically free money so it's pretty certain nothing in their standard displays are from a local or specialized breeder. I will buy from the chain pet stores sometimes because I lack sources but I would not assume anything with it's health except that there's a good chance it's been exposed to things and possibly stressed in it's life. I'd basically treat it as a rescue or wild caught when it comes to potential parasites, infections, poor feeding periods at points in it's life, and past shedding issues even if that's been sorted out now.


You clearly missed my post where I explained, in detail, how large chains acquire their animals. It's a feeder system and it certainly starts at the "small breeder".

I know it's true in Canada and in the US. The only difference is I don't know the major players in the US as well as I know them here.

[Scubadiver59]

The new addition is at home.

Didn't get a weight yet, but length is about 30in, the full length of the 20gal tank I have it in.

Here are some preliminary (substandard) pics..

http://i.imgur.com/GKdKiBS.jpg
Quarantine Rack

http://i.imgur.com/4tKIoHp.jpg
Layed out investigating

http://i.imgur.com/p7W3xmc.jpg
Looking for the (fire) escape route...

They were still feeding it pinkies, multiple pinkies, but I bought some mice more to the correct size. I'll try feeding it in a few days, it was due to eat today, after it settles in.

A really docile snake...I like that already! :)

[GyGbeetle]

Even if you ignore any moral standing Petco and Petsmart along with a few other major chains tend to only buy from very large breeding companies that often have a bad track record for their husbandry and health. Stores often will not take animals from local breeders due to being under contracts and may even require the person turning over an animal to pay them to take it and then "adopt" it out for a fee to end up with basically free money so it's pretty certain nothing in their standard displays are from a local or specialized breeder. I will buy from the chain pet stores sometimes because I lack sources but I would not assume anything with it's health except that there's a good chance it's been exposed to things and possibly stressed in it's life. I'd basically treat it as a rescue or wild caught when it comes to potential parasites, infections, poor feeding periods at points in it's life, and past shedding issues even if that's been sorted out now.

this has been my experience with these large chains. Even when the chain stores purchase from large breeders, the breeders are often not reputable, and have poor husbandry, which is why I always stress, especially here in the states, to have a vet appointment for all new reptiles purchased from places like Petco and Petsmart. Been around this bend too many times to see it not end well.

I'm glad your purchase went well, Scuba, and she looks breathtaking. Just keep a close watch on her over the coming weeks, and make sure you lengthen your quarantine to what your normal protocol may be. I'd recommend 90 days, but the decision ultimately is up to you.

[Aaron_S]

this has been my experience with these large chains. Even when the chain stores purchase from large breeders, the breeders are often not reputable, and have poor husbandry, which is why I always stress, especially here in the states, to have a vet appointment for all new reptiles purchased from places like Petco and Petsmart. Been around this bend too many times to see it not end well.

I'm glad your purchase went well, Scuba, and she looks breathtaking. Just keep a close watch on her over the coming weeks, and make sure you lengthen your quarantine to what your normal protocol may be. I'd recommend 90 days, but the decision ultimately is up to you.

Which large scale breeders do you know producing enough to supply the chain pet stores? I know most of the large breeders in the States of ball pythons so I'm curious so I can compare notes.

EDIT: Actually, you never answered on WHY you recommend these vet appointments and what "may be lurking" as per your own words. Sounds like you're instilling fear without knowing exactly what you should be afraid of.

[GyGbeetle]

Not entirely sure of the specifics about balls, but here is an article I had recently found regarding these "reputable large reptile breeders" that have contracts with Petco and Petsmart alike:

https://www.thedodo.com/petsmart-supplier-lizards-1633352619.html

There are other countless articles and petitions and other materials relating directly to the treatment of ill reptiles after being received as sick from breeders as well, because corporate standards for these chain stores are to provide minimal care to increase profit margin:

Petco Issues Official Statement Regarding Iguana Found in Dumpster Behind Wichita Falls Store (http://newstalk1290.com/petco-issues-official-statement-regarding-iguana-found-in-dumpster-behind-wichita-falls-store/)

There are a multitude of other articles online regarding their treatment of these animals, but the bottom line isn't that they don't know how to handle the animals. Most of these animals are coming in sick from the breeders, not getting sick after staying in the store for "x" amount of weeks. I think that's the biggest issue with the chain stores here in the US. It's not a regional issue; it's a nationwide issue.

Petco has been scrutinized in the past for their maltreatment of their mammals as well, being cited at particular localities in the 80s for animal cruelty. I'm not as familiar with Petsmart, but it stands to reason, given they are for-profit, their corporate policies are similar.

The argument that these large chain stores will first purchase from local breeders is a fallacy. There is no profit for purchasing from a local breeder, when the prices often times are not within their margins. they have contracts with large scale breeders, where they can purchase up-front, or they can provide stipends for sale (not typical). Keep in mind, chain pet stores are NOT franchises, therefore, regardless of location, corporate policies need to be adhered to for the sake of business.

I'm not saying there aren't exceptions. and perhaps Canada operates separately from the US. Or perhaps the standards in Canada regarding animal welfare are different than in the states. I've been an animal rescuer for over 20 years, and I've seen too many stores coming directly from big chain pet stores to change my mind, both reptiles and mammals alike.

[Scubadiver59]

Don't know if they'll give me that answer but I can always ask.

Which large scale breeders do you know producing enough to supply the chain pet stores? I know most of the large breeders in the States of ball pythons so I'm curious so I can compare notes.

Well, the initial examination revealed some signs of excess rubbing on the back along one or two spots on the spine, but nothing too serious that will probably disappear after the first shed. The snake, sex unknown, was very placid when being handled, and following her initial foray in the new surroundings, settled in for the night atop the cold hide.

The second evening, I decided to see if it would eat, so I warmed up the (medium) mouse and dangled it in front of the hot hide. At first, the snake pulled back inside the opening, but after two tries of setting the mouse on the paper, and pulling it away from the opening, the snake struck, strangled the poor dead mouse to death, and then I left it alone to ingest. When I went back later, it was back in the hot hide, looking out at me, the mouse nowhere to be found. Mission success, I guess.

I'll try to get a handling session in later this week. I added some sphagnum to it's enclosure to get the humidity above 50%, which it did, and it was interesting to watch the snake check out the new "thing" in its domain. My Herpstat-2 is due in mid-week so I'm running off a Zilla rheostat controller which I hate due to the up/down temperature changes...never again.

this has been my experience with these large chains. Even when the chain stores purchase from large breeders, the breeders are often not reputable, and have poor husbandry, which is why I always stress, especially here in the states, to have a vet appointment for all new reptiles purchased from places like Petco and Petsmart. Been around this bend too many times to see it not end well.

I'm glad your purchase went well, Scuba, and she looks breathtaking. Just keep a close watch on her over the coming weeks, and make sure you lengthen your quarantine to what your normal protocol may be. I'd recommend 90 days, but the decision ultimately is up to you.

[Aaron_S]

Not entirely sure of the specifics about balls, but here is an article I had recently found regarding these "reputable large reptile breeders" that have contracts with Petco and Petsmart alike:

https://www.thedodo.com/petsmart-supplier-lizards-1633352619.html

So you just take a simple video by PETA no less as pure fact without follow up research? You might want to considering this video has been circulating for awhile and PETA is known for staging videos. In this case they got someone hired as a employee and they staged shots for this specific video. Might want to look into.

Also you need to stop using the term "large breeder" for everyone. Reptiles by Mack may breed some animals but they also are a wholesaler. They would buy from someone like me or my other breeder friends for the quantity they need and turn around sell it to the pet stores. You can say what you want but I know this is fact. I know enough people in the States to know they WHOLESALE most of their lower end animals either directly to pet stores/chain stores or someone who holds the contract.

You can say what you want about corporations but I don't think you understand how they actually work/profit from this. It's all a chain. Wholesalers can't breed enough/don't have enough space so they source from smaller breeders with good standards for a fair wholesale price (I sell normals for $10 - $15) and then the pet store takes them for $15 - $25) and the price goes up depending on the morph.



Petco Issues Official Statement Regarding Iguana Found in Dumpster Behind Wichita Falls Store (http://newstalk1290.com/petco-issues-official-statement-regarding-iguana-found-in-dumpster-behind-wichita-falls-store/)

I cannot or will not defend this story. It's cruel and inhumane and I hope it was an isolated incidence.

There are a multitude of other articles online regarding their treatment of these animals, but the bottom line isn't that they don't know how to handle the animals. Most of these animals are coming in sick from the breeders, not getting sick after staying in the store for "x" amount of weeks. I think that's the biggest issue with the chain stores here in the US. It's not a regional issue; it's a nationwide issue.

Petco has been scrutinized in the past for their maltreatment of their mammals as well, being cited at particular localities in the 80s for animal cruelty. I'm not as familiar with Petsmart, but it stands to reason, given they are for-profit, their corporate policies are similar.

As you say, "particular localities", which means they are isolated to those places. Animals suffer in some cases, absolutely and I'll acknowledge and shun each case of it but we can't paint everyone with a single brush. Especially when you're quoting information from the EIGHTIES! Nearly 3 decades ago...THIRTY YEARS AGO! Things have come a long way.

The argument that these large chain stores will first purchase from local breeders is a fallacy. There is no profit for purchasing from a local breeder, when the prices often times are not within their margins. they have contracts with large scale breeders....[/QUOTE]

It clearly isn't a fallacy considering I do it and others do as well. There certainly is profit. Know how? When animals are sick and dying and in poor health a few things happen.

1. They die in transit or whatever. They don't even make it for sale so because it's instantly dead so the company loses tons of money on these.
2. Sick and dying don't look good to the customer and they sit forever so they lose money by having space taken up by an animal that isn't moving so they have to steeply discount in hopes to recoup some cost but the profit is already gone.
3. The animal dies at the new home fairly quickly. Guess who gets store credit, replacement or refund? I don't know all stores that do this but it'll hurt the bottom line.

You would be correct closer to the 80's and 90's. I worked in pet stores in the early 2000's and there were some issues but they have come a long way and a lot has to do with the captive breeding of basic species like the ball python.

Why would a company spend $10 on importing gross, mite infested, tick infested babies when they can spend $20 on an animal that they can almost guarantee profit out of it?

My last point is, you still haven't told me what may be lurking and what needs to be uncovered at a vet visit.

Don't know if they'll give me that answer but I can always ask.



Well, the initial examination revealed some signs of excess rubbing on the back along one or two spots on the spine, but nothing too serious that will probably disappear after the first shed. The snake, sex unknown, was very placid when being handled, and following her initial foray in the new surroundings, settled in for the night atop the cold hide.

The second evening, I decided to see if it would eat, so I warmed up the (medium) mouse and dangled it in front of the hot hide. At first, the snake pulled back inside the opening, but after two tries of setting the mouse on the paper, and pulling it away from the opening, the snake struck, strangled the poor dead mouse to death, and then I left it alone to ingest. When I went back later, it was back in the hot hide, looking out at me, the mouse nowhere to be found. Mission success, I guess.

I'll try to get a handling session in later this week. I added some sphagnum to it's enclosure to get the humidity above 50%, which it did, and it was interesting to watch the snake check out the new "thing" in its domain. My Herpstat-2 is due in mid-week so I'm running off a Zilla rheostat controller which I hate due to the up/down temperature changes...never again.

A feeding snake so soon from getting it home is a fantastic sign! Ball pythons are timid feeders when in a new place and for it to eat should tell you that you've done a good job ensuring it feels secure. Well done.

[sattva]

Wow! There's a lot of reading in this thread... I have Petco and Petsmart in my area I but I try to stay away from the big chains... If I need something, I'll go to my local reptile store the Serpentarium... Don't know if I'd ever buy an animal from them only because I never see anything I would want... Their selection usually isn't much... I think they take in a lot of unwanted animals... I see a lot of Beardies, Normal balls for $20.oo, Turtles and some Chameleon... Every once in a while I'll see a hognose, king snake or something... I will say that all the employees are knowledgeable; Probably because they all have their own collection...

I have only bought two snakes through the mail... George and Crystal... George was 9 months old at the time so he made the trip pretty well, but Crystal was only 4 weeks old and she was a little weak when she got here... I really worried about her for the first few days... She shakes her head still, but not near as bad as she use to...
It's seems that most of the small breeders in my area sell their snakes on Craigslist...

[harlequinnz]

I say go for it. Especially with your soft spot! It'll be satisfying when you get to make sure it's taken care of correctly because pet store reptiles.. Poor fellas :hmm:

[dannybgoode]

We have the same issues and debates here in the uk. I actually have more of an issue with irresponsible selling of inappropriate animals to people with little or no experience than the ethics of where the animals are sourced although that is a concern too.

There are 3 stores so far in the UK I'll support and by livestock from (all independent) and one more that will get my money for equipment etc. There may be others but I'll only buy from stores I've visited and vetted myself.

Luckily I am building quite a network of breeders who have similar keeping philosophies as I do and they generally breed the more unusual stuff I am getting a taste for.

Would I ever buy an animal from Pets at Home (our Petco) equivalent? No...

[Scubadiver59]

Well, I actually am a person of little to no experience since I've only had my Corn and King for about a month now; however, I did do a lot of reading, I have the funds to provide the correct equipment and habitats, and I joined this forum to get more direct insight into the husbandry of said aforementioned snakes and my newly acquired BP. I have a lot to learn.

That being said, I got the BP to save it from such a fate, as presented below, plus it's such a beautiful animal that I couldn't resist. It may have mites, but doesn't look like it, and I don't hear/see any signs of RI, or anything else thus far. If it dies, then it's not due to any oversight on my part, and we have some good reptile doctors up north in Alexandria (VA), but at least it has more room to move and I'm feeding it better than they were.

Meh...I have it now, I like having it, and I hope it sticks around for a few years. I spent almost $30k trying to save my female Dobie, and I gave her three more years (12 human years equivalency) of life with me and the two boys through that care--some days were rough, but most were good. The BP will get no less love or care no matter where it came from.

The soapbox is free for use...


"...We have the same issues and debates here in the uk. I actually have more of an issue with irresponsible selling of inappropriate animals to people with little or no experience than the ethics of where the animals are sourced although that is a concern too."

[dannybgoode]

Well, I actually am a person of little to no experience since I've only had my Corn and King for about a month now; however, I did do a lot of reading, I have the funds to provide the correct equipment and habitats, and I joined this forum to get more direct insight into the husbandry of said aforementioned snakes and my newly acquired BP. I have a lot to learn.

That being said, I got the BP to save it from such a fate, as presented below, plus it's such a beautiful animal that I couldn't resist. It may have mites, but doesn't look like it, and I don't hear/see any signs of RI, or anything else thus far. If it dies, then it's not due to any oversight on my part, and we have some good reptile doctors up north in Alexandria (VA), but at least it has more room to move and I'm feeding it better than they were.

Meh...I have it now, I like having it, and I hope it sticks around for a few years. I spent almost $30k trying to save my female Dobie, and I gave her three more years (12 human years equivalency) of life with me and the two boys through that care--some days were rough, but most were good. The BP will get no less love or care no matter where it came from.

The soapbox is free for use...

Apologies - the experience comment was not aimed at you.

I was meaning shop's that sell Retics to anyone who walks through the door, anacondas to 10 yo's - that kind of thing.

That bothers me more than however Petco et al stock their stores.

I absolutely understand why you bought your snake and it sounds like you'll do brilliantly with it.

For me personally though I'd rather support a good independent than a big chain. Heck i even drive across town for crickets and mice when I could just walk across the road and buy them from a chain retailer but I want my little independent to survive.

Equally there are a couple of independents in my town I hope close an - back to anacondas to 10 yo's-seriously...