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regi375
03-18-17, 09:10 PM
Oh boy... after my ball python Fiona just didn't take her first mouse right away I didn't feed her the second one (Discussed this in a different thread). So that left one mouse in the feeder cage. no big deal, right? Well I look in there today when I added in some new feeders and I discover that she looks really, really bloated. She's almost to golf ball size now. Please tell me she isn't pregnant, and just ate too much or something?... If she is, then can I feed the babies to my kingsnake and spotted python? My only concern for that is I'm not sure if they'd go back onto f/t afterwards... Any advice would be a blessing, thanks. (Sorry if it seems like I'm over posting lately ;-; This live feeding stuff new to me man.)

REM955
03-18-17, 10:18 PM
Is it alive? If not I would suppose that is just decomposition.
As for the other responsibility someone else is going to have to speak on this.
Pictures might help.

regi375
03-18-17, 11:02 PM
Yes, it's live. Here's a pic, she's about twice as big as the other mice x.x

Grizla
03-19-17, 12:24 AM
that is one pregnant mouse. one live meal probably isn't going to ruin your snakes' training, but if you're worried about it- fresh baby mice are so tiny and naked i think they'd freeze to death very, very quickly and then you could just use them as you normally would. not a great situation, but sometimes these things happen.

Tsubaki
03-19-17, 08:30 AM
Don't EVER put live animals in a freezer! Horrendous thing to do. If you wish to freeze pinkies, this might sound cruel.. but simply throw them against the ground first. Instant death, freeze them without pain.

regi375
03-19-17, 06:08 PM
Don't EVER put live animals in a freezer! Horrendous thing to do. If you wish to freeze pinkies, this might sound cruel.. but simply throw them against the ground first. Instant death, freeze them without pain.

Didn't plan on putting anything live in the freezer. If there's any leftover young then I'll probably just wait until they're big enough for Fiona to eat. Didn't realize I was getting a six for one deal when I got the mouse, lol.

TRD
03-19-17, 07:45 PM
Don't EVER put live animals in a freezer! Horrendous thing to do. If you wish to freeze pinkies, this might sound cruel.. but simply throw them against the ground first. Instant death, freeze them without pain.

I once bought some feeders from a store I usually won't go. I had to because my usual pickup point ran out for some reason of the size I needed (never happened before). They gave me a small plastic tub and I was in a rush so I basically didn't look inside... it was pinkies and hoppers and some sizes in between.

Once I got home and opened the box because wanted to sort them out I realized this shop simply put the mice in the box alive, and froze them. They were clumped together I suppose in an attempt to stay alive, defecated everywhere due to fear, and overall looked like a horror movie shot just missing the claw marks on the wall.

I seriously considered going back with molotov cocktails to that shop. Once I spoke to my regular breeder where I get my mice he told me he knows about that practice in that shop and he also told me they previously used some gas to kill the mice. That gas was not CO2 and they killed off someone's snake collection as the mice became poisonous, hence now they live freeze them.

Some proper regulation would be in order here.. :\

PS. that wasn't in NL.

---

As for the pregnant mouse, congrats :D if that stuff would happen to me my girlfriend wouldn't allow me to use them as food and we would gain a bunch more pets, haha

Macropodus
03-19-17, 08:44 PM
... first mouse right away I didn't feed her the second one ... So that left one mouse ... I added in some new feeders... If she is [pregnant], then can I feed the babies to my kingsnake and spotted python? ...

So you want her to give birth, right? And you want the pups to live, rather than get eaten by mother and/or the new feeders recently added in, right? Ideally you'd have left her together with the other mouse that you had purchased her with, especially if it was also a female.

If you isolate her she most likely will eat her pups. If you keep her in mixed with the other, unfamiliar mice her pups also will likely get eaten. Your best bet is to pull the largest female mouse from the new recently acquired feeders and put her together with the pregnant mouse in a very dark, warm, quiet place with little to no disturbance. Toss in a roll of toilet paper, and of course food + water. With a little luck you will soon have a nest of nursing pups.

Good luck and keep us updated.

regi375
03-19-17, 09:43 PM
I did isolate her, but both of the new feeders I got are male. Gonna use an adjustable heat pad I got to put under her cage. Probably cover it with a towel as well to keep the light out. Hopefully she decides to mother the pups instead of eating them. Anymore suggestions?

regi375
03-19-17, 09:47 PM
Ah crap... The males are fighting... Anything I can do about that? I've got no other container to separate them XD

Tsubaki
03-19-17, 11:32 PM
Mice eats their young due to extreme stress or a serious protein deficiency, if simply being alone or with unfamiliar mice got them to eat their young they woulndt be as effective as a species. 99/100 times young get eaten, wrong type of feed. My source for this? I bred fancy mice for years, and only had accidents the first few months untill I figured out pregnant mice needed supplements. Aka animal protein, insects (dried or not) or dried meat.. or even high quality (high protein low sodium) cat food works. Without supplements there's always a chance of the mother culling the litter because she can't spare the protein the babies are made out of, they aren't vegetarians after all. Rats do the same. I could even sort of, count, and sex the newborns without losing any. They did sometimes clean out the weak ones though. Only other problem is if you put a nursing mom with a non nursing possesive female, that would steal babies and blocks the mothers acces causing the babies to lack nursing. Males fighting isn't anything you can do about, it takes a long time and serious dedication to breed friendly males that can live together. If store bought mice fight, they will not very likely stop.

regi375
03-20-17, 12:00 AM
Thanks Tsubaki :) as always, your advice is invaluable. I have a cat so I'll just use some of her food. Just out of curiosity, what should I be feeding the mice? Currently I've had seed available to them along with various fruits and veggies (Apple, carrot, potato, even some strawberry and orange).

Tsubaki
03-20-17, 12:44 AM
A good mix of seeds meats and vegetables is the best, I bought high quality mice feed and supplemented the prenant/nursing females with a mix of dried meats and bugs. Sometimes even a few live mealworms (not advisable if they're not used to it, those things bite!)

Tsubaki
03-20-17, 12:45 AM
Be careful with fruits especially dried, too much sugar is bad. I dried vegetables as well to easier regulate fluid intake.

regi375
03-20-17, 06:48 PM
She has given birth! It looks like she might have abandoned some of the babies though. Would it be ok if I took a look in there to see how many are alive?

Macropodus
03-20-17, 07:55 PM
Abandoned. Really? Hmmm, that's strange... I thought our invaluable advice was that if simply being alone or with unfamiliar mice got them to neglect their young they woulndt be as effective as a species. Supposed to be just wrong type of feed. 99/100 times it's wrong type of feed, so I guess this time is the 1/100 of a time that's it something else?

This, therefore, has become quite a perplexing issue. Could this be the 1 out of a hundred times that she didn't fulfill her motherly duties because she was isolated or mixed with the other, unfamiliar mice, instead of pulling the largest female mouse from the new recently acquired feeders and put her together with the pregnant mouse in a very dark, warm, quiet place with little to no disturbance?

regi375
03-20-17, 08:36 PM
Update: upon further inspection, it just appears that the baby was a bit further from the others. I think she's caring for the young, but it's difficult to tell through the mess of toilet paper.

Macropodus
03-20-17, 08:44 PM
That's cool. Let's help the mod save face. And good on ya for tossing in the roll of toilet paper.

Tsubaki
03-20-17, 10:41 PM
Sometimes babies get culled, I quite clearly said that. Weak ones get culled, she might not want that pinky for whatever reason.. She could even actually just be a bad mother. Other things are possible too... It might've accidentally been dragged out of the nest by holding on while nursing, mom might not have the wits to put it back. The Eating of the young is either extreme stress, or a lack of protein, small chance of it being anything else. Which is indeed 99/100 times the problem with starting breeders, wrong feed. A single pinky outside of the nest could have had multiple things happen to it (which all have nothing to do with the eating of the nest that you and I spoke about) I'm not a mouse psychiatrist, and I do not see why I would have to "save face" and can't say your reply is a very kind one with the best interest in the topic. But I'm not too petty to admit a mistake, please ensure I make one before pointing fingers next time though.

Anyway, if they had a full belly I usually gently tossed them back into the nest if something happened because my mice knew me and didn't mind me touching things, or I just used them as feeder, if they get too cold or ignored by mom they're done. Anyway, you can check how many she has, however stress is a risk, and you don't really know this animal she might find it stressful.

TRD
03-21-17, 03:35 PM
I bred fancy mice for years

Same here :) Now Japanese dancing mice... we have around 25 or so right now who are off limit to the snakes (much to their disappointment I could add) :D

Scubadiver59
03-21-17, 05:04 PM
Same here :) Now Japanese dancing mice... we have around 25 or so right now who are off limit to the snakes (much to their disappointment I could add) :D

Did you put them in clear cages next to each other to see the disappointment??? :rolleyes:

TRD
03-21-17, 07:06 PM
Opposite sides of the room now, at least can clearly see when they are hungry :D

regi375
03-21-17, 07:20 PM
Did you put them in clear cages next to each other to see the disappointment??? :rolleyes:

The cage I have my feeder mice in is in plain view of my cat. I've seen her sitting on the floor, staring at them. Even if they escape to avoid becoming nourishment for my snake, my cat will get them. Talk about being screwed, lol.

Macropodus
03-23-17, 11:59 AM
The cage I have my feeder mice in is in plain view of my cat. I've seen her sitting on the floor, staring at them. ...

So whether or not the mice can see her they can still smell her? Are they breeding for you or are they just kept there as in a holding cage until they're fed off?

We have a long-haired cat (Norwegian Forest) which requires regular grooming. Our African Soft Furred Rats are on another level of the house where the cat is not permitted. There have been a few times over the years when I inadvertently groomed the cat and then shortly afterwards went to the ASF's. They are almost always very active when we enter, even happy to see us. But on days when we smell like cat they freeze, motionless. I'd immediately leave, change clothes, wash my hands & forearms with soap/water, and then re-enter to see them back to normal.

I imagine regular exposure to cat scent could cause a decrease in reproduction rates for any small mammal from mice up to rabbits.

sattva
03-23-17, 01:01 PM
She has given birth! It looks like she might have abandoned some of the babies though. Would it be ok if I took a look in there to see how many are alive?
When I was a kid in like 5th grade or something I was taking my turn to baby sit two rats in a cage... Took them home and my mom made me keep them in the garage... I went out to check on them the next morning and the female had given birth and either male or the female through all the babies out of the cage onto the cold cement... They were all still alive... I brought home 2 and took back 13... Shock the whole class... Nobody knew she was pregnant...

So yea! I would check to make sure everybody is behaving...

Ps... Sorry! I saw the last post on the first page and thought it was the last post... Daaaaa

Macropodus
03-23-17, 02:20 PM
... two rats in a cage... Took them home and my mom made me keep them in the garage... the female had given birth and either male or the female threw all the babies out of the cage onto the cold cement... So yea! I would check to make sure everybody is behaving...

Lots of possible causes for that:
1) the male present was not the father of the pups
2) too much change in the environment, and too fast
3) temperature extremes

You said "garage... cold cement." She may have become impregnated at room temperature (e.g. 70F) and then all of sudden thrust into <50F. Not good, slows metabolism down to the point where she can't lactate.

Checking "to make sure everybody is behaving" is futile. What ya gonna do call in the Rodent Whisperer to lecture her on mother duties? IME of 40yrs of breeding Mus musculus and Rattus norvegicus females which become pregnant and then remain under the same settings/conditions thru gestation nearly always successfully raise their young. Mastomys natalensis are an exception. They will breed on low protein, high fat lab block, which is insufficient for milk production. Then as their pups starve they will eat them. Number 1 beginner mistake.

sattva
03-23-17, 02:52 PM
Lots of possible causes for that:
1) the male present was not the father of the pups
2) too much change in the environment, and too fast
3) temperature extremes

You said "garage... cold cement." She may have become impregnated at room temperature (e.g. 70F) and then all of sudden thrust into <50F. Not good, slows metabolism down to the point where she can't lactate.

Checking "to make sure everybody is behaving" is futile. What ya gonna do call in the Rodent Whisperer to lecture her on mother duties? IME of 40yrs of breeding Mus musculus and Rattus norvegicus females which become pregnant and then remain under the same settings/conditions thru gestation nearly always successfully raise their young. Mastomys natalensis are an exception. They will breed on low protein, high fat lab block, which is insufficient for milk production. Then as their pups starve they will eat them. Number 1 beginner mistake.
The Rodent Whisperer! :yes: Now that was funny... I don't remember the temps... I was 10 years old, about 56 years ago... The only real thing I know about rodents is that my snakes eat them...:)

regi375
03-23-17, 03:48 PM
I was able to bribe her with sunflower seed to gain access to the babies. All of them seemed alive, but she covered them up before I could get a pic.

regi375
03-23-17, 08:31 PM
I was able to get a pic of the babies. Bribing the mother with sunflower seeds finally paid off :D

Macropodus
03-24-17, 11:53 AM
I was able to get a pic of the babies. ...

Great to hear you lucked out! Now the less disturbance the better. They'll be weaned in ~1month then if you want more litters leave a male, preferably the biggest (fastest growing), in with the mom. Divi up the others into trios and more than likely that'll leave you with a few males to feed off. Some breeders just keep one big colony in a large enclosure.

If you play your cards right you'll never again have to invest in mice, you'll always have a food source (including pinkies for your hatchlings) at hand, and you can feed your mice with the best ingredients instead of the cheapest lab block. (What you put into your feeders is ultimately what you put into your reptiles.)

Then, when you get tired of their stinky stench (especially the males'), feed 'em all off and use your cages for ASF's. :yes:

Magdalen
03-24-17, 01:42 PM
I imagine regular exposure to cat scent could cause a decrease in reproduction rates for any small mammal from mice up to rabbits.

I'm not so sure about the rabbit part (I've never bred rabbits) but rabbits (not wild rabbits) tend to get along with cats fairly well. Haha my rabbit is actually kind of an a**hole to my cats. He likes chasing them. Or going for their faces. Actually before he got fixed.... he reeallllly like my cats if you get my drift. Anyway I'm off topic.

Macropodus
03-24-17, 01:49 PM
... My rabbit ... Before he got fixed.... He reeallllly like my cats if you get my drift. Anyway i'm off topic.

....lol...

sattva
03-24-17, 02:17 PM
I don't think I could breed rats for my guys... I can barely take the smell when I heat them up for their dinner... Not to mention I'd have to kill them... I seem to have a problem killing anything... :no:

TRD
03-24-17, 02:45 PM
I don't think I could breed rats for my guys... I can barely take the smell when I heat them up for their dinner... Not to mention I'd have to kill them... I seem to have a problem killing anything... :no:

When my youngest gained some sort of understanding of live she started to cry when I feed my snakes telling that I'm doing "very ugly things". She's still running to mommy when I feed the snakes with tears in her eyes...

So cute but she hates me when I feed the carnivores in the house. We already have a bunch of Dubia roaches with names that I'm not allowed to feed to the gecko's and they play with them when they are running up and down their arms.

The challenges of kids, and the ever expanding group of permanent residents in the house from all animal orders... :D

Magdalen
03-24-17, 04:18 PM
....lol...

Yeaaaah it was straight up ridiculous :rolleyes: He had a special fondness for my Siamese.

regi375
03-26-17, 06:20 PM
Update: I was able to feed the babies to my snakes. There was four babies in total, and the snakes certainly appreciated the live treat. Their feeding responses were never so voracious! It was really interesting to see them eat with such enthusiasm. :)

Macropodus
03-27-17, 07:31 PM
The 1st page of this thread, 3rd post, has an uploaded photo of your mouse that was pregnant.

Only 4 babies out of her? I'd have thought at least twice that.