heat panel question

[GyGbeetle]

I have a question that I hope won't make people face palm when they read it. Ok, so all of our tanks have been all glass with UTH, no therm to regulate (not really needed). We are going to be upgrading the entire collection with Animal Plastics cages over the next year. In an effort to expedite this process, my husband fell upon a sale of a boaphile 6 foot enclosure (not really the same thing as AP, but it serves a similar purpose).

I know nothing about these types of cages, and know nothing about heating. Before we start populating this particular cage with a snake, I would like to hear some expert advise on heating.

We purchased a really nice, never-been-used heating panel along with the cage (it was $25, can't beat that deal). The guy we bought it from said the snakes can sit *on* the heat panel, but we were told otherwise from some trusted keepers. So if the snake can't sit on the heating panel, where does it go in the tank? I know our snakes all like belly heat, so should I also include some other belly heat in the cage? It seems like it would be a lot of heat to do 2 sources, but this is a 6 foot cage. We were thinking about putting our burmese python in it, as she is getting bigger and girthier than our retics at this stage; retics can wait another 6 months to get into their own AP cages, or longer at their current growth rates.

Also bought a 3' x 18" x 20" boaphile cage at the same time. We currently have a UTH as the heating source, and the hot side gets around 88 F, cold gets around 75 F. We have our columbian rainbow in that one. it doesn't seem like it's heating well though. Any advice on that would be greatly appreciated.

please note, humidity is poor right now, because everything is on paper towels. Everyone always asks about humidity, and to be honest, it usually isn't a problem when we put our substrate in. We mist at least once a day; we have tropical snakes that require that extra humidity. But until we are sure our mites are completely 100% gone, which will be probably another 2 weeks, they will stay on those stupid paper towels.

Please ask questions because I don't really know what else to say about this, and I really could use the advice.

Thanks in advance!

[jay's reptiles]

wait, you don't use thermostats? how are you managing?

[trailblazer295]

The heat panels should be mounted on the top of the cage. They will provide IR heat like basking in the sun. They will warm the ground and objects which in turn warm the air. The advantage of an RHP vs a CHE is the surface does not get nearly as hot so the risk of a snake burning itself is eliminated. I have an RHP in my PVCs for my BP and boa, my king only has a UTH but that's all she needs.

A UTH won't provide any heat outside of the surface area it covers. The thermoconductivity of PVC is terrible vs glass as well. If you wanted a belly heat basking spot you could try placing a flat smooth rock under the RHP, I've tried it personally my snakes didn't use it much but did on occasion.

I'd recommend going with RHPs in the PVC cages for your retics. I bought mine from pro products. They'll ask size of cage, material, animal being kept in it, ambient room temp etc to advise the right panel for each cage.

[GyGbeetle]

Tanks aren't that tall, ambient temps in the room and enclosures are 75-78, with the heat side around 85-95, depending on the enclosure. Very simple setups, but the husbandry has been fine, since it's already pretty warm ambient and the enclosures aren't too large. But with the boaphile and AP cages, they are much larger, and the requirements are very different. We're going to a trade show this weekend, and hopefully will find a good thermostat for the heat panel, or whatever heat source we want to use in the boaphiles. I'm just really inexperienced with these larger tanks. And with the babies no longer being babies, will need to upgrade within the next year.

I'd like to note that all but 2 of our snakes are small/babies still. They are not cramped in their tanks, and have quite a bit of room, so we're not squishing anyone. Also, we live in the desert. our biggest challenge isn't getting things warm, it's keeping them cool. All year round, except maybe 6 weeks out of the year.

[trailblazer295]

You can get panels to heat any size of large enclosure. Just a matter of selecting the right one. From what I've read RHPs won't dry the air out as much as a CHE will.

[chairman]

Could you post more information about the heat mat that you purchased? MOST heat mats are not designed to be placed on the floor of an enclosure, but SOME, including these, are:

https://www.kanemfg.com/product/poly-pet-heat-mat/
Stanfield Heat Pads Archives - Osborne Pet Supply (http://www.osbornepetsupply.com/product-category/heat-pads/stanfield-heat-pads/)
Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc. (http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=357&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=1&SearchContext=YTo1OntzOjQ6IlBhZ2UiO3M6MToiMSI7czo4 OiJTZWFyY2hJRCI7czoxOiIxIjtzOjEwOiJEYXRhYmFzZUlEIj tzOjE6IjIiO3M6NzoiSGVhZGluZyI7czo5OiJUZXJyYXJpdW0i O3M6MTU6IlByb2R1Y3RDYXRlZ29yeSI7czo3OiJIZWF0aW5nIj t9)

They all still need to be controlled by thermostats.

[GyGbeetle]

ok, so what is RHP and what is CHE? and how do I know which one we purchased? the one we have we were told retails for like $180. I don't know if that's accurate, but it's really big and bulky.

Do the boas and pythons need belly heat to digest? or will the heat panel be sufficient enough for their needs?

[GyGbeetle]

Could you post more information about the heat mat that you purchased? MOST heat mats are not designed to be placed on the floor of an enclosure, but SOME, including these, are:

https://www.kanemfg.com/product/poly-pet-heat-mat/
Stanfield Heat Pads Archives - Osborne Pet Supply (http://www.osbornepetsupply.com/product-category/heat-pads/stanfield-heat-pads/)
Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc. (http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=357&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=1&SearchContext=YTo1OntzOjQ6IlBhZ2UiO3M6MToiMSI7czo4 OiJTZWFyY2hJRCI7czoxOiIxIjtzOjEwOiJEYXRhYmFzZUlEIj tzOjE6IjIiO3M6NzoiSGVhZGluZyI7czo5OiJUZXJyYXJpdW0i O3M6MTU6IlByb2R1Y3RDYXRlZ29yeSI7czo3OiJIZWF0aW5nIj t9)

They all still need to be controlled by thermostats.

to me, UTH means Under-the-Tank, which is exactly that; underneath the tank, on the outside. I do not trust having these mats inside the tanks, even the ones that specify being safe inside tanks.

[trailblazer295]

ok, so what is RHP and what is CHE? and how do I know which one we purchased? the one we have we were told retails for like $180. I don't know if that's accurate, but it's really big and bulky.

Do the boas and pythons need belly heat to digest? or will the heat panel be sufficient enough for their needs?

RHP radiant heat panel big and flat heating surface most common manufacturers are RBI and Pro Products.

CHE cermaic heat emitter, screws into a light socket, emits no light

Both are infared heat sources, zero light. With a CHE you will need a screen to protect the snake from coming in direct contact with it because the surface temperatures get very hot.

My boa and BP have had RHPs bascially as long as I've owned them. No issues with digestion, the ground is warmed by the panels, you will have to tweak the setpoint on the panel to achieve the ground temperature. IE I have one panel set for 92f to get 90f on the ground. You can use an infrared gun to measure the temperature on the ground on your hot side.

[Aaron_S]

A few points,

Trailblazer REALLY knows his heating stuff so trust his word. He's pretty up on this stuff. So I won't add anything to his advice.

Secondly, thermostats aren't just for keeping temps up, it can help bring them down too. You set them to what you need and it monitors it for you and will turn the heating element on/off. Better yet a proportional thermostat will put out just enough power to maintain the chosen temps. You can even set night drops if need be.

Last, you mention your retics not being squished and not needing an upgrade over the burm right now. While this holds true currently I'd caution it as even though their mass isn't quite there they tend to nose rub a LOT when inside smaller enclosures. Keep an eye out for this.

[GyGbeetle]

RHP radiant heat panel big and flat heating surface most common manufacturers are RBI and Pro Products.

CHE cermaic heat emitter, screws into a light socket, emits no light

Both are infared heat sources, zero light.

My boa and BP have had RHPs bascially as long as I've owned them. No issues with digestion, the ground is warmed by the panels, you will have to tweak the setpoint on the panel to achieve the ground temperature. IE I have one panel set for 92f to get 90f on the ground. You can use an infrared gun to measure the temperature on the ground on your hot side.

Ok, then we got an RHP, because it's not ceramic. It's big and bulky.

Do you have a pic of your setup please, so I can get a visual? I think if we can get a good thermostat (shooting for herpstat) at the trade show this weekend, we'll set it up and see how the temps perform overnight. I kinda don't want to put the snake in there until everyone is back on bedding, which is another 1-2 weeks. That should be plenty of time to dial this in.

for the smaller one, the UTH appears to be heating it ok, but I'm not comfortable with the ambient temps. so I wanted to know if we should get another RHP, or maybe use heat tape, which you can cut and size to what's needed? Do you have smaller tanks that you use your RHP for?

[trailblazer295]

HAHA thanks for the endorsement Aaron. Yeah I'm a heating and AC mechanic by trade so pretty good grasp on heating and humidity.

Ok, then we got an RHP, because it's not ceramic. It's big and bulky.

Do you have a pic of your setup please, so I can get a visual? I think if we can get a good thermostat (shooting for herpstat) at the trade show this weekend, we'll set it up and see how the temps perform overnight. I kinda don't want to put the snake in there until everyone is back on bedding, which is another 1-2 weeks. That should be plenty of time to dial this in.

for the smaller one, the UTH appears to be heating it ok, but I'm not comfortable with the ambient temps. so I wanted to know if we should get another RHP, or maybe use heat tape, which you can cut and size to what's needed? Do you have smaller tanks that you use your RHP for?

I have a 2x2x1 with RHP, a 4x2x1 and 48x24x16. Each one has a different size to maintain 90f. In my 2x2x1 with an RHP I had a perfect 90f hot 80f cold gradient. A UTH isn't needed in a cage like that.

I'll snap some pics of my setup and snake room later today. I'll dig up a thread that outlines probe placement in the cage that I used.

[GyGbeetle]

A few points,

Trailblazer REALLY knows his heating stuff so trust his word. He's pretty up on this stuff. So I won't add anything to his advice.

Secondly, thermostats aren't just for keeping temps up, it can help bring them down too. You set them to what you need and it monitors it for you and will turn the heating element on/off. Better yet a proportional thermostat will put out just enough power to maintain the chosen temps. You can even set night drops if need be.

Last, you mention your retics not being squished and not needing an upgrade over the burm right now. While this holds true currently I'd caution it as even though their mass isn't quite there they tend to nose rub a LOT when inside smaller enclosures. Keep an eye out for this.

Thanks Trailblazer. That's why I posted it here, in order to get the expertise from folks like you guys.

for the retics, we are aware through research of the nose rubbing. Right now, they haven't exhibited any stress. But we are planning to transition them to 6' AP cages over the next 6 months. They can wait 6 months. they are each currently around 6 feet in length, just not as girthy. If they need it earlier, we get it earlier. the burm, she's not as long, but getting pretty girthy, and she explores much more than the retics do, so I'm more concerned over the size of her tank at the moment. She may not need the 6 foot right now, but we will give it a go and hopefully she won't get too stressed. It'll also give us some experience as to how we want to decorate the tanks; she'll be our test subject. I want to make it look like one of those plant filled terrariums, but with fake instead of real plants. I just do NOT feel comfortable experimenting with heat. I've been to pet shops that have visible burns on their snakes and it makes my heart sink. I don't want to be that person.

[sattva]

Excuse me for butting in here... Hey Trailblazer... You seem to like Pro heat panels over Reptile Basics Radiant Heat Panels, which is what I was planning on buying for George... Do you think these are better? I can't find any prices on them... Their web site is awful!

[trailblazer295]

Excuse me for butting in here... Hey Trailblazer... You seem to like Pro heat panels over Reptile Basics Radiant Heat Panels, which is what I was planning on buying for George... Do you think these are better? I can't find any prices on them... Their web site is awful!

I prefer pro product panels because they are safety tested UL ULC CE listed. Which means they have to meet industry standards of safety. Up here the law requires that all products be tested. The USA does not have such a law as a result most US based companies might not test their products for the small Canadian market. That being said in the pet trade up here it's still easy to buy untested equipment locally in chain stores. BUT lets say in the terrible case something shorts and burns your house to the ground and the cause is what is essentially an illegal product your insurance company will be giving a wave goodbye (you can fill in the rest). There was a news story out west years ago about an aquarium heater that shorted and caught fire. Luckily the person was home at the time. It was purchased at a Big Als I believe which is a popular aquarium store chain.

So for my personal piece of mind and insurance reasons I stick with tested equipment. I know many members have used RBI for years without an issue.


As for their website that is done on purpose to prevent people ordering the wrong panels. Bob told me people kept ordering the wrong panels. They make such a range of sizes and wattage. Bob has told me this himself. I've talked to him many times. Email or call him, he'll ask you questions on what cage, material, animal it's for, ambient room temp etc and recommend the model number of the right panel and give you the cost no problem.

[SnoopySnake]

Also bought a 3' x 18" x 20" boaphile cage at the same time. We currently have a UTH as the heating source, and the hot side gets around 88 F, cold gets around 75 F. We have our columbian rainbow in that one. it doesn't seem like it's heating well though. Any advice on that would be greatly appreciated.!

Are you using a thermostat for this? UTH can get very hot, 88 is even pushing it for a rainbow boa....I keep mine with a hot spot of 84 and the rest of the cage is ambient temp (around 75). Don't have anything to add about the heat panels, just don't want to see anything happen to your snake :)

[Skipper7]

Gybeetle-

I believe you mentioned that keeping cool is your issue. Not sure if you're talking about cages or yourself. If cages, a thermostat will help with this.

[GyGbeetle]

Gybeetle-

I believe you mentioned that keeping cool is your issue. Not sure if you're talking about cages or yourself. If cages, a thermostat will help with this.

Myself. the snakes that aren't in quarantine stay in our bedroom. I overheat and get sick from heat, but the snake's temps all stay on par. I don't really care about my own needs if the animals are ok. I might have to change that sentiment sooner though. We're looking into building a snake room over the next 2 years, after we do everything else we need to do.

We are going to upgrade everything and it will all have thermostats.

[GyGbeetle]

I prefer pro product panels because they are safety tested UL ULC CE listed. Which means they have to meet industry standards of safety. Up here the law requires that all products be tested. The USA does not have such a law as a result most US based companies might not test their products for the small Canadian market. That being said in the pet trade up here it's still easy to buy untested equipment locally in chain stores. BUT lets say in the terrible case something shorts and burns your house to the ground and the cause is what is essentially an illegal product your insurance company will be giving a wave goodbye (you can fill in the rest). There was a news story out west years ago about an aquarium heater that shorted and caught fire. Luckily the person was home at the time. It was purchased at a Big Als I believe which is a popular aquarium store chain.

So for my personal piece of mind and insurance reasons I stick with tested equipment. I know many members have used RBI for years without an issue.


As for their website that is done on purpose to prevent people ordering the wrong panels. Bob told me people kept ordering the wrong panels. They make such a range of sizes and wattage. Bob has told me this himself. I've talked to him many times. Email or call him, he'll ask you questions on what cage, material, animal it's for, ambient room temp etc and recommend the model number of the right panel and give you the cost no problem.

Is there any sort of sensor or power strip or plug in device that can prevent a short, and turn the product off if there's any arching or electrical issues? I'd care less about the insurance (yes, it would suck to have to rebuild a burnt down house), and more about the pets I'd be losing.

[trailblazer295]

Is there any sort of sensor or power strip or plug in device that can prevent a short, and turn the product off if there's any arching or electrical issues? I'd care less about the insurance (yes, it would suck to have to rebuild a burnt down house), and more about the pets I'd be losing.

Most power bars are designed to protect devices from power surges coming from the outside in not shorts in circuits. That's what the breakers/fuses in your power panel do. But circuit breakers aren't designed to save appliances they protect the wiring from overheating. Even a single arc could light something on fire in theory so even shutting power off after that it's like blowing out the match after your campfire is going. A good surge bar that will trip if over amped is the only product I'm aware of. That's really all you can do outside of not overloading circuits, too many plugs in one bar etc.

[Big_V]

Pro Products (promist@comcast.net) That is Bobs contact, he will talk your ear off but is the man when it comes to these products. He came up with these after losing a cabin in a large fire years ago. Ive been using these since I a teenager and my first unit still looks brand new 15 years later.

There is no comparison in having peace of mind your investments are safe and secured with tested products. I do also believe Bob ramps up the power to extremely high levels to test each unit before it leaves his place.

Most good thermostats have fuses on them and you can by replacements.

Dont mess around with inferior products that use flexwatt, here in BC Canada there was a very large law suit against them.

Ryan

[chairman]

to me, UTH means Under-the-Tank, which is exactly that; underneath the tank, on the outside. I do not trust having these mats inside the tanks, even the ones that specify being safe inside tanks.

None of the heat mats that I posted are UTH. (Although all of Zoo Med's repti therm products are UTH except for the one I linked.) The top two products were originally designed as heat sources for pigs/other livestock so they're tough and very water/filth resistant.

That said, I only use the mats for tortoises. They could be used within wood or PVC enclosures for larger snakes, but I'd go with the majority here recommending the use of RHP mounted on the ceiling of an enclosure. I've got a cage upgrade coming in the near future and I'll be going with UL (or similar) listed RHP.

[GyGbeetle]

What do people think about the belly heat that you can get with AP cages? I was thinking of going with those when we're ready to upgrade. But I'm now completely freaking out about a fire.

[trailblazer295]

Sorry for the delay.

This is my snake pit, well really most of my basement. The exo terra far left is empty waiting to be sold and small PVC top right is empty awaiting new inhabitant.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd120/scottwaslenko/20170313_150603.jpg (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/scottwaslenko/media/20170313_150603.jpg.html)

This is my setup with probe and temp sensor. Now keep in mind this probe placement was when I had a smaller panel but found it couldn't heat my cage properly so I had to upgrade unfortunately the new panel was almost exactly 2' long and the cage is just under 2' with the PVC edges so I had no choice but mount it the other way. I will most likely need to remount the probes and play around with it.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd120/scottwaslenko/20170313_150845.jpg (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/scottwaslenko/media/20170313_150845.jpg.html)

This is the link I used to set my probes up. In my smaller cage it was perfect but the panel is this cage couldn't heat up enough so some playing around will be needed. Assuming your heater is powerful enough to achieve the temperatures you need this should work.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-enclosure-discussion/111433-how-properly-place-thermostat-probe-snake-viv.html

[GyGbeetle]

Sorry for the delay.

This is my snake pit, well really most of my basement. The exo terra far left is empty waiting to be sold and small PVC top right is empty awaiting new inhabitant.



This is my setup with probe and temp sensor. Now keep in mind this probe placement was when I had a smaller panel but found it couldn't heat my cage properly so I had to upgrade unfortunately the new panel was almost exactly 2' long and the cage is just under 2' with the PVC edges so I had no choice but mount it the other way. I will most likely need to remount the probes and play around with it.



This is the link I used to set my probes up. In my smaller cage it was perfect but the panel is this cage couldn't heat up enough so some playing around will be needed. Assuming your heater is powerful enough to achieve the temperatures you need this should work.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-enclosure-discussion/111433-how-properly-place-thermostat-probe-snake-viv.html

thank you Trail for the info! this is greatly appreciated.

So, are you Canadian? Hahaha. just kidding. that's a really great setup you have. Wish I had the space to have a room dedicated to the animals, but I have kids :(

[trailblazer295]

I have a needy cat that will moan and whine until she gets what she wants. Does that count? :p

[GyGbeetle]

I have a needy cat that will moan and whine until she gets what she wants. Does that count? :p

It doesn't unless you've given her an entire room all to herself because she moans and whines and complained until you gave it to her. Then shame on you for caving into the cat overlord; this is why they are evil!

[Scubadiver59]

I had to look up your second flag...the England Flag...due to my lack of knowledge. Learn something new every day

Sorry for the delay.

This is my snake pit, well really most of my basement. The exo terra far left is empty waiting to be sold and small PVC top right is empty awaiting new inhabitant.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd120/scottwaslenko/20170313_150603.jpg (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/scottwaslenko/media/20170313_150603.jpg.html)