Delerious at Work - Tiger Rat & Black Racer Discussion

[eminart]

*Edit* I spelled "Delirious" wrong.

I'm a bit dizzy and feverish, so not concentrating on work very well.

For quite a while, I've been planning to get a pair of Spilotes Pullatus. I'm hoping to get hatchlings this summer.

However (bear with me here), last Dec. my wife's 14 year old mini schnauzer had to be put down. Of course, my wife took it very hard. A few weeks later, we went into Petco because I'd heard they were having one of their $1 per gallon tank sales. They weren't. But, a shelter was there with some kittens for adoption. My wife has always loved cats, but has allergies. Long story short, we got a 5 month old kitten. This past week, he started showing signs of sickness, so I took him to the vet. Apparently, there's a very good chance he has a fatal viral condition (FIP). So, we may have to put the cat down too, just over a year after the dog.

I mention that because, if we do, I've already planned that I'm going to put my Spilotes money toward a new cat for my wife. There are some cool breeds, like Egyptian Mau's that I like a lot. And, I figure, I might be able to lower the chances of another disaster by getting one from a breeder where it has been tested for most of the more common cat problems. If another of my wife's furry pets has to be put down, I'm not sure she can take it.

Soooooo, that brings me to black racers. I've always wanted to get a young pair, raise them up in captivity, and try to start a breeding program. Racers are such cool snakes, and are almost never available as CBB. I think they could be very interesting display snakes.

That's all.

TLDR version: Dizzy. Want tiger rats. Cat may die. Might breed racers.

[RAD House]

I am sorry to hear that you two have been hit with the loss of two pets so close together. Rescuing can be a really fulfilling but risky undertaking, but I am sure you made the cats short life much better than it was on path to be.

My wife had to get rid of her cat when we first got together due to my allergies and the cat hated my dog. Luckily her parents were able to take it, but I have always felt a bit guilty about it. Last November I picked up a Bengal cat for her, and it has been great even though I am not particularly a cat person. It does not bother my allergies one bit and they are supposedly immune to feline leukemia. She is certainly growing on me with her inquisitive nature and is a gorgeous cat. She even peeks my wild animal interest a bit as she is part Asian leopard cat. The downside is she pretty energetic and a bit on the expensive side.

I have always thought that buttermilk racers were some of the most interesting looking snakes and have often pondered getting a wild caught pair and trying them in captivity. I am not sure I am ready for this kind of undertaking yet, and this is only compounded by the fact that I live no where near where they exist. I wish you good luck with whatever direction you decide to go.

[GyGbeetle]

Cats are evil. I've rescued cats for like 20 years; they are evil. With that aside, be very wary when approaching a breeder, any breeder of any animal. There are some good ones, and then there are those infamous mills that you hear so much about. With the furries, to get the breed the way most want, requires a fair amount of inbreeding, which causes shortened life spans, diminished quality of life, amongst a multitude of other issues. Viruses being one of those other issues, including FIP. I've seen it all too often in my rescue work.

You're a good man for taking your snake money to give your wife a cat. I hope that this little one doesn't have FIP, but if she does, she had a good life in her furever home regardless, and that's more than most people can say.

If you do get another cat, please speak to the vet about isolation period first, and sanitizing your house from the FIP virus, before bringing another one in.

[whistlepig]

I hope your cat ends up being alright and doesn't have the fatal condition.

As far as breeding black racer's, I think it would be a great idea because they are awesome snakes (though I don't have other snakes to compare them to). I've only had mine for 6 months but I've found it to be attractive, curious and active. I do wonder how much of a market there is for them though, it seems they have a difficult reputation. I personally think the reputation is undeserved. I certainly had a little difficulty and frustration getting it to eat frozen mice in the beginning, but after reading through this forum, it doesn't seem like it was a whole lot different than other people have had with other species and I haven't had any trouble since he started to eat. The only other thing I've observed is that a lot of people like to hold their snakes, and that is something that only seems to stress out my racer. The more I leave him alone, the happier and more normal he behaves. But as someone who just likes to watch their animal, racer's seem to fit the bill pretty well.

[eminart]

Thanks for the cat well wishes, everyone. He actually seems to be showing some small signs of improvement last night and today. He's going back to the vet this weekend. Hopefully good news.

Last November I picked up a Bengal cat for her,

Very cool. I've looked into those a lot. If it were for me, I'd probably be looking at Bengals or Savannah cats. But, it's my wife's cat, and she's a bit more on the tame side - and opposed to spending thousands.

As far as the racers, if I do end up spending my S. pullatus money on a cat, they're going to be my backup plan. It's something I've always wanted to do anyway, and if I go with native black racers, I can do it for just the cost of enclosures. The blues and buttermilks are definitely interesting too though... and coachwhips... hmmm...

[whistlepig]

Glad to hear the*cat is*doing better, hopefully he continues to improve.

Keep us updated if you do attempt to breed racers. I'd be interested to know how it*goes.

[Kathryntheclean]

I love cats. We rescued so many over the years. Scotch, our 18 year old son's cat is our favorite. He's 19 years old this year. We're trying for the Guinness Book of World Records on him! He still goes out and hunts for us at night, bringing us rabbits, snakes (sadly. Although we had a talk about that once.), flying squirrels, mudskippers, and some crazy unidentifiable things. Some of em come to us still alive and well. Like, he finds his own "pets" and brings them home for show and tell. You're a good husband to your lady, giving her your pet money. But, doesn't she love snakes too? Maybe you could get her her very own. Then she wouldn't be allergic. I thought I could never handle a snake. But when my daughter begged for one and we got him, I fell in love! And he's kinda like mine anyway. I mean, who's going through the process of de-miting the little guy? Who thaws his mice? Who cleans up after him? We all know who! He's my baby and I adore him. He's better than a cat, if you ask me!

[akane]

Well around 90% of the time FIP does not turn into symptoms and is actually commonly carried in some breeds. Any situation with a concentrated large population is more likely to have FIP carrying individuals than a more dispersed population. Active FIP aka FIPV is often brought on by another health issue weakening the immune response suppressing the virus. Since FIP is not very contagious except during an active infection it doesn't spread easily when you don't keep a lot of cats in one area and practice good sanitation. If you think you will avoid it by using a breeder though you may be very very wrong depending what breed and what breeder you choose. I would suggest more research.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15994104

[eminart]

Well around 90% of the time FIP does not turn into symptoms and is actually commonly carried in some breeds. Any situation with a concentrated large population is more likely to have FIP carrying individuals than a more dispersed population. Active FIP aka FIPV is often brought on by another health issue weakening the immune response suppressing the virus. Since FIP is not very contagious except during an active infection it doesn't spread easily when you don't keep a lot of cats in one area and practice good sanitation. If you think you will avoid it by using a breeder though you may be very very wrong depending what breed and what breeder you choose. I would suggest more research.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15994104


You're assuming I haven't done research.

Actually, it's the feline coronavirus that usually doesn't turn into FIP. Once it has morphed into FIP, it's fatal. It's just very difficult to diagnose in it's "dry form" which is what my vet suspects our cat has.

And Kathryntheclean, I don't want to lecture, but you should really consider not letting your cats outdoors. They're terrible for the ecosystem.

[Scubadiver59]

Not to mention, hazardous to their health!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/animalia/wp/2017/02/23/this-hunter-waged-a-war-on-feral-cats-now-he-says-he-has-become-the-target-of-attacks/?utm_term=.2053aa5dd6e4


You're assuming I haven't done research.

Actually, it's the feline coronavirus that usually doesn't turn into FIP. Once it has morphed into FIP, it's fatal. It's just very difficult to diagnose in it's "dry form" which is what my vet suspects our cat has.

And Kathryntheclean, I don't want to lecture, but you should really consider not letting your cats outdoors. They're terrible for the ecosystem.

[RAD House]

I agree about cats, they are indoor pets only.

[Kathryntheclean]

Yeah, I can see how cats could be bad on the ecosystem. I agree. We have two indoor only cats. Scotch is the only guy we let out. He's just so old we figured he's earned his right to roam. And usually what he brings home is alive. We rehabilitate what we can and release further from our home so he can't re capture the critters. We live in a semi-country area. It's growing quickly and lots of animals are being run out of their natural habitats. I always think (hope anyway) that Scotch brings the animals home to get them help. The flying squirrels he brought home, he carried gently in his mouth as though they were his babies. When I heard him meowing ferociously outside and I opened the door, I found three of them. They were babies, covered in bugs! I bathed and fed them and then rehomed them. I figured someone stupidly let them loose and Scotch brought them home to be taken care of. I could be wrong. I like to think animals have good hearts, even if some can be jerks. I'm silly, I know. I guess I was just brought up that way, though.

[akane]

One of mine killed several song birds and so they kept leaving to nest elsewhere. Then with claw covers on she caught a bat. The only cause for FIP listed anywhere with science behind it is the coronavirus. Any carrier can have it mutate or the immune system become too weak. It is not clear what triggers it.

But anyway I was looking at blue racers when wanting something blue just because I like the color. I wasn't sure the difficulty of getting Coluber constrictor foxii and didn't go looking since I kind of want something smaller for my current plans. I'm looking for some garter snakes that show more blue or a the blue stripe ribbon snake right now.

[whistlepig]

But anyway I was looking at blue racers when wanting something blue just because I like the color. I wasn't sure the difficulty of getting Coluber constrictor foxii and didn't go looking since I kind of want something smaller for my current plans.

I've only ever seen black racers for sale online (they didn't say if they were northern or southern subspecies). In fact, when I first got mine and was searching for "pet blue racer" for information, most of the top search results were something along the lines of "Blue racer good pet or death wish...". *So I'm guessing they're not easily available or seen as desirable. Again, I'll point out that from my perspective that overly aggressive reputation is undeserved. *From my experience so far, I'd describe them more as nervous than aggressive, but maybe it will change as he gets older.

[akane]

They don't live well near humans, it seems to be their only downfall, and I don't think it's officially listed as an endangered species but they are in Canada. There are still populations in 9 states but I'm not sure it's legal to collect anywhere with them placed on lists of concerned species. Iowa does not allow collection of anything native, Michigan, and Wisconsin they are at least a concerned species and I thought there were some collection laws in IL too. That eliminates my easily accessed corner of the world. South Dakota has a good population and I'm not sure the Washington to Oregon population. I don't know what their captive status is. If they aren't popular they may not have enough captive population held by individuals if the IUCN Red List status gets decided and made officially illegal everywhere. I'm not sure what happens to an existing captive population if they are declared endangered in the wild. It would seem counter productive to stop people breeding and selling the remaining individuals but Iowa does similar. You can't bring a western hognose in the state because they are endangered in Iowa. The same for a fish species I want that is doing great across large portions of the US in the wild and captivity but endangered in Iowa so you can't keep them from any source legally. I think there's a hole in the logic there. It's not like every other species of native can't be impacted by snakes brought from out of state (I have a texas x minnesota bull snake) and there is nothing special about the local population so they aren't really preserving anything. They are just waiting something into extinction that could be repopulated. I wonder if it goes extinct that means it's no longer native and no longer restricted. Then what if some get released or found, they wouldn't know which happened, and are now in the state again. Given the hognose popularity they would be everywhere fast if they became legal. Do we now put them back on the endangered natives list? I'm sure someone someday will get to find these things out. Just like the herpetologists here had to figure out how the current laws work to explain what can and cannot be kept or done with species in Iowa. I've found pretty much every Iowa animal law leaves a loophole for authorities so the only thing truly safe from seizure under any conditions is maybe the domestic cat. They just don't interfere unless you annoy too many or the wrong neighbors.

[eminart]

Well, thankfully, it looks like the vet jumped to conclusions and made my wife and daughter cry for a week for no reason. The cat seems to be recovering just fine. We have recently moved, so the vet we used was a new one. We took him for a follow up visit to our old vet, and they didn't think there was any reason to think it was FIP. Looks like they were right.

Anyway, whistlepig's racer thread is tempting me to try to breed a pair of racers anyway. Not only is it something I've always wanted to do, but it will also allow me to put my savings toward a new camera that I've been lusting after.

I'm not going to make any hasty decisions. I plan to think about it while the spilotes people are making and hatching eggs.

[EL Ziggy]

I'm glad your kitty is going to be ok Em. The racer or spilotes projects would both be awesome. You can't lose either way. :)

[whistlepig]

Glad to hear the cat is going to be ok. I can also relate to the vet making your family upset for a week for no reason comment.

I'm with EL Ziggy, I think both projects would be cool. Those tiger rat snakes look awesome, racer's are awesome, and new camera's are awesome. Decisions...at least it sounds like you've got some time before you have to make them.

[RAD House]

I am glad the cat will be ok. I vote spilotes as they are so impressive and come in a broad range of impressive patterns. Do you have any idea if there is a market for black racers? I am sure there is, I just haven't heard much want for them.

[eminart]

I am glad the cat will be ok. I vote spilotes as they are so impressive and come in a broad range of impressive patterns. Do you have any idea if there is a market for black racers? I am sure there is, I just haven't heard much want for them.


I'm sure when the spilotes start hatching I won't be able to say "no." Maybe I'll just do both. ;) As far as a market for racers, I think I'd have to tell everyone they wanted one. They're so rarely kept, I don't think anyone ever considers them.

[RAD House]

Haha, Jedi mind tricks. I can dig it. Just create an awesome enclosure like Loki's and I am sure you will drum up interest.