Would you consider a Wester hognose a HOT?

[homebrewed]

I've been trying to gather alot of info on these guys and there has been alot of talk about rear fanged sp. being considered HOT's.

Here's what I read "Although hognose snakes are not poisonous to humans, they do have a venom that is released through hollow back teeth into their prey."

on hognose.com, there isn't anything about this under their description, but I've read it on otherpages.

Can someone send me in the right direction?

thanks

Tim

[homebrewed]

I guess I answered my question with that quote... but would still like to hear some opinions.

Anyone ever get bit, if so did you experience anything?

[Matt]

ive been bit by my hognoses a number of times and nothing has ever happened.

this is what i know, someone please correct me on any info that may be incorrect.
hognoses are not considered to be venomous, as i understand it, they secrete a digestive juice in their mounths that act as a digestive aid. This can be an irritant in humans, and if you are allergic, can cause some problems

rear fanged are HOT, as far as i am concerned that is not a debate, BUT i dont think hagnoses are considered rear fanged.

confusing issue, im still not 100% on it, so maybe someone else wants to jump in!

[LdyDrgn]

I guess the best term would be mildly HOT (except for the Boomslang, of course!). The Hognosed may not have very large rear fangs and they do have to chew quite a bit to inject enough venom to really cause problems, but they are still considered "rear-fanged"

Everything you want to know about Hognosed snakes (http://www.hognose.com/)

:zi:

[homebrewed]

here we go (still don't think I've completely covered this site yet)

http://www.hognose.com/pages/venomous.htm

[Matt]

so they are rear fanged?
i always thought heterodon was not able to inject venom, but lioheterodon and lystrophis were able to envenomate
hmm, i guess i stand corrected!

[sparkon16]

I thought that the were considered venomous but their venom is not like others.
I have no idea if this is right but I think it can make things sleepy what ever the word
for that is.

Deuce(a little of what i've heard)

[BWSmith]

I have not heard of any symptoms from most hognoses. I have heard scattered reports of mild reactions from Malagasy Hogs but no documentation I can put my hands on at the moment.

[homebrewed]

This is what I've been looking for, for the last week. I saw these pictures about a year ago.

Hognose Bite (http://www.herpnet.net/bite/)

I'm sure this may be an extreme, but I hope that doesn't happen to me when and if I get tagged

[BWSmith]

First time I have seen that. Funny how he got so many pics of it actually biting him

[LdyDrgn]

LOL if I remember correctly, he enticed it to bite him using a mouse then ALLOWED it to chew extensively on his arm. All in the name of research, of course! :rolleyes:

[Feed'em All]

hehe, Is the debate I tried to post! are rear fanged hots? I guess the bottom line would be "depends on which one..."
Just my opinion, Martin.

[Gregg M]

Hognosed snakes are not venomous...... The bigger rear fangs are used to pop holes in its prey....... In the wild they eat mostly frogs....... And we all know what frogs do when the feel threatend...... They blow them selves up to appear bigger than they are....... The hognose uses the fangs to punture the frog so it can swallow it....... And here is some food for thought...... Even human salyva has an LD50......

[eyespy]

Well, they do have Duvernoy's gland, and are classed as a "mild" hot because of that. So are garter snakes, for that matter.

[reverendsterlin]

I think the scientists are even still debating this one, mild venom or caustic saliva? Which ever way it finally goes, the results are still going to be some folks reacting to it and most not.

[J_Riley]

perhaps the hognose is evolution in progress? I'm sure vipers didn't go from no venom to potent venom in 50 years...

[ETET]

I saw those pictures too, don't know is the saliva itself or may be effect of infective agents get into the guy's body after such a extensive bite. I think a formal study to extract hognose's saliva for a LD50 test will know if this snake is consider venomous or not. In the mean time, form different people's experience mostly towards hognose is a potential venomous snake. I think keep away from a bite is better than like that guy try to test how poisonous is the snake.


ETET

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

... Think of it like a bee sting.

Not many people consider them venomous(locals) and and laugh everytime I mention I was envenomated by a bee..
Anyhow,
The thing I'm getting at is that Hognoses technically are venomous, even though it's bite doesnt effect many people; Like bees..

By the way, there are pics on ************** fourms and phot gallery of hog noses gaping and yawning. They have decent sized fangs.

I hear wc hogs, especially easterns are more potent because of the high quanity of toads they eat.. Lets also not forget that when you are bit by a hog, that most of the times they dont have their fangs sunken into you. I've also noticed that they had to move a toad furtherdown their throats to even penatrate a toad with it's fangs..

Um..

Xain

[eyespy]

Interesting discussion, which brings up a question. Define "venom".

Is a venomous snake any snake which can deliver hemotoxins and/or neurotoxins? If so, almost all snakes can fall into those categories. Or is it only when a certain amount of toxin is delivered? Is LD50 the only true measure of when something is or is not a venom? Or do you go by the physiological effects of a toxin?

I know that there's been enough work done with garter snakes to say that they are definitely mildly venomous. There is a hemotoxic quality to the Duvernoy's gland secretions which causes angioedema even in the absence of a true allergic reaction. It's fairly easy to tell the difference. If the bite area swells and bruises but there are not elevated levels of histamine, trypase and igE in the bloodstream it is a true toxin rather than an allergic reaction. There are documented cases both of true envenomation and also of allergic reactions caused by garter snake bites. Thus doctors of human medicine class garters as mildly venomous even though most herpetologists don't. I've never read whether that is also true of hogs or not.

Here's a little bibliography I found of colubrid envenomations and/or studies in case anyone is interested:

http://www.herper.com/snakearticles/rfvenbiblio.html

[Mustangrde1]

I can possibly be way off on this but i have kept hognose and have been bitten unfortunately but with no effects other than a few foul words and a little blood.However I have heard of some sever reactions to the bite. In most cases these were from wild animals captured in the field .These Hognose were collected and the bites occurred in a area know to have Buffos Toads. The Buffos does have a toxin and this could be the reason and account for the bad bites.. Anyone got a opinion ?

[nahish2001]

I guess they're just not considered "hot" ENOUGH. Their "venom" is too mild maybe to be considered dangerous. I recently bought a hognose snake from a reputable dealer here in California, and it's illegal to keep hots without a license (or maybe it's always illegal, I'm so confused about this issue) Either way, if it was considered venomous enough by the people that declare what is venomous enough to sell, then it must not be venomous enough... if that made any sense.