View Full Version : Woma python is corkscrewing
GyGbeetle
12-28-16, 12:05 PM
I had a question for anyone that has experience either with womas or any Python in general. Starting Christmas Eve day, my woma Charlotte started corkscrewing. Now I know what everyone is going to jump to; IBD. However, the symptoms don't match. Here's a brief history of Charlotte: we bought her at a trade show a little over a month ago from a vendor who we've bought 5 other boas from over the course of 6 months. Charlotte was there on every visit, and I spent time with her on a couple of these visits. So I'm confident she was healthy when I brought her home.
so the incident: about 2 weeks ago we bought a temp/humidity gauge from the store, that has a velcro adhesive component on the back. Well, day 2 of having said product, Charlotte managed to wrap her whole body over it, and remove the adhesive from the side of her tank (60 gallon glass tank). This was about 3 weeks post purchase. And then she slithered over it. The adhesive stuck to her chin. It stuck pretty good. So good in fact that we brought her back to the store to have them help get it off. With a q-tip and olive oil and some pulling, we all finally got it off. As a precaution, we removed substrate from her tank and didn't feed her for 2 weeks. Replaced forest floor with a towel. She seemed happy. Very energetic. Crazy Charlotte!
second incident: I fed her the usual size rat (small) the day before xmas eve and put the saved substrate back into tank. She ate. She was happy. Crazy but full Charlotte. The next day, we noticed corkscrewing on the head portion of her. No other symptoms. Just the head. She resolves out of it very quickly, but she can't pull herself all the way to the top of her tank since this started. Her head just droops to the side. So we removed (and tossed) her substrate thinking it absorbed some unknown poison. We've quarantined her, and we have been giving her fresh water daily. She's getting better, but not sure what happened and how to get her head motion restored.
any help or ideas on what this might be? If it's a chemical toxin, how do I determine what it was in order to avoid this in the future?
Hello.
Not sure if you meant a full corkscrew or just rubbing face into the side of the ground.
Hopefully it is similar or the same as my Woma in the first picture: Cuddles (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-python-forum/112507-cuddles-woma-python.html#post996528)
GyGbeetle
12-28-16, 02:34 PM
Hi there. Thank you for sharing your post. This is not what Charlotte is doing. She is corkscrewing her neck. If I can figure out how to share videos,
I'll try and post a video.
Albert Clark
12-29-16, 05:07 AM
Sorry to hear about the corkscrewing. Is there some way you can post a video of it bc the description you are giving doesn't sound like true corkscrewing however womas are prone to wobbles and neurological presentations at times.. Woma and Hgw (hidden gene woma) both are affected. True corkscrewing has various degrees of severity but is usually a very involved neuro episode. Usually brought on by some type of stressful situation. Controlling stress is a doable remedy by keeping husbandry on point, regular feeding of appropriate sized prey. Limiting handling also is a stress reducer for snakes in general.
Hi there. Thank you for sharing your post. This is not what Charlotte is doing. She is corkscrewing her neck. If I can figure out how to share videos,
I'll try and post a video.
Oh well. Was hoping.
You can post to YouTube and copy paste the link into chat. That might be easiest.
Captain837
12-29-16, 12:09 PM
Sorry to hear about the corkscrewing. Is there some way you can post a video of it bc the description you are giving doesn't sound like true corkscrewing however womas are prone to wobbles and neurological presentations at times.. Woma and Hgw (hidden gene woma) both are affected. True corkscrewing has various degrees of severity but is usually a very involved neuro episode. Usually brought on by some type of stressful situation. Controlling stress is a doable remedy by keeping husbandry on point, regular feeding of appropriate sized prey. Limiting handling also is a stress reducer for snakes in general.
Is the op asking about a woma python or a woma morph ball python? I have never heard of neuro issues in normal woma pythons.
GyGbeetle
12-29-16, 05:57 PM
This is a Woma Python, not a BP morph. I hope this YouTube link works:
https://youtu.be/RtqOBBzJkts
That looks very odd to me. I have very little experience, but comparing it to some other youtube videos, it looks similar to IBD.
In any event, my thoughts would be to quarantine her from the other animals you mentioned and get a vet to look at her and the video.
I hope others have better advice than what I said.
I saw at the end she appeared to continue as normal. Is that what happened?
GyGbeetle
12-29-16, 09:49 PM
REM955: I already had a vet look at the video and his first assessment was some sort of toxic exposure. To what I have no idea. The second she became symptomatic she was put into quarantine, and no other boid in the collection is showing signs of anything.
And yes, she will resolve to normal movement. In fact, she's been steadily improving since this all started. IBD cases typically decline quickly once the corkscrewing begins, although I've heard some cases of boas lasting over a year with this symptom.
I'd like to mention that she has had 2 very nice looking bowel movements since she ate on Friday, all while this has be going on. She's lucid, she's active, and she has no other symptoms. Her mouth is clean. Her tank is well heated. I don't get it at all
Well, from what I understand is that:
IBD may come from a virus or other pathogen.
IBD causes death by starvation.
This is only from superficial reading, but honestly I'd just keep her quarantined. It is not something I would consider risking the other animals that you have. I know I also read something a ways back that suggested that pythons, not boids, could live on with it. But I am reaching out of my depths here. These are only things that I would consider doing now until better advice comes along.
Well, from what I understand is that:
IBD may come from a virus or other pathogen.
IBD causes death by starvation.
This is only from superficial reading, but honestly I'd just keep her quarantined. It is not something I would consider risking the other animals that you have. I know I also read something a ways back that suggested that pythons, not boids, could live on with it. But I am reaching out of my depths here. These are only things that I would consider doing now until better advice comes along.
-IBD is a retrovirus
-Both boas and pythons are boids
-IBD is most commonly found in boa constrictors and the onset of symptoms in boas can be lengthy, while in pythons the snakes die quickly with it
-Snakes with IBD often begin with mild stargazing and chronic regurgitation,
MANY other things can cause this corkscrewing. Some of the more common ones are: exposure to a toxic substance (bleach, vapona, some other concentrate used for cleaning or mite treatment), incorrect dosage/administration of prescribed antibiotics, trauma, exposure to heat without an escape causing heat stroke, as well as congenital/genetic defects. The fact that the OP's snake can right itself otherwise and doesn't appear contorted would suggest to me that IBD is not the cause of this behaviour. As far as identifying the cause...have there been any changes to how you clean or keep him? When did you notice it? What are you using to clean and what is your method?
-IBD is a retrovirus
-Both boas and pythons are boids
-IBD is most commonly found in boa constrictors and the onset of symptoms in boas can be lengthy, while in pythons the snakes die quickly with it
-Snakes with IBD often begin with mild stargazing and chronic regurgitation,
Thank you for correcting me.
GyGbeetle
12-30-16, 01:13 PM
Andy: Charlotte had trauma to her neck while we tried to get adhesive off of her. She didn't have any corkscrewing until I first fed her after 2 weeks of keeping her off feed. My first inclination was that the rat she ate exacerbated some bruising in her neck that hadn't quite healed yet. Nothing else seems to fit. She hasn't been exposed to any toxins (we have all the snakes housed in the same room, separate enclosures. So any new toxin I would think would cause a similar reaction to at least one more snake). Husbandry hasn't changed. In fact she was thriving previous to her corkscrewing; she's equally still thriving and can now pull herself up to the top of the tank again without flopping her head over.
The reason I'm asking about the toxin exposure is because I don't know where the source is, so I can't prevent it from happening again, or keep her away from exposure now to allow her to improve. Is it possible then if this is just that neck trauma? Upon advice from a vet, we're going to feed her on her proper schedule, which would be today (Friday) on a small rat (her usual size). We'll see what happens
GyGbeetle
12-30-16, 01:27 PM
-IBD is a retrovirus
As far as identifying the cause...have there been any changes to how you clean or keep him? When did you notice it? What are you using to clean and what is your method?
ok, we haven't changed anything. here's the series of events prior to the corkscrewing:
We had a temp/humidity gauge in her tank, with a velcro adhesive backing. She managed to wrap her body around the gauge, and remove the velcro from the glass it was adhered to on the tank. and then slithered over the adhesive side, causing it to get stuck underneath her chin.
We tried mineral oil and rubbing the oil into the adhesive to remove it. We had no luck. So we brought her back to the store where we purchased her from (we've become friends with most of the folks there, including the owner and the store manager). They put some olive oil and used a q-tip with some pressure, and finally removed the adhesive tape after about 30 minutes of gently pulling. some of her scales came off, and it's a bit abrasive around that area.
As a precaution, we removed all of her substrate (forest floor), put in a bathing towel, and took her off feed for about 2 weeks. Just 2 days shy of those 2 weeks, we put the saved forest floor substrate back into her tank, and fed her the usual small rat. We saved the forest floor substrate in a storage bin we sometimes use to house snakes during transport, or feed on rare occasions. so we wash the tub down with soapy water, and sometimes use a paper towel with hand sanitizer on it.
Once the substrate was replaced back in the tank, we watered down the substrate, and then fed her the small rat. That was in the evening of Friday.
Saturday around 2 is when my husband noticed the weird movements. We immediately removed her from the snake room, in case it was IBD or any other contagion. We have 2 retics, 2 burmese, and 6 columbian red tails in the same room with our woma, so all boids.
After removing her from the room, and consulting more with the store manager, who felt it might also be a toxin exposure, we removed (and tossed) the substrate, put in another clean bathing towel, and have literally been on snake watch ever since.
Every day, her movements improve. At the beginning of all of this, she would try and lift her head and corkscrew back. Then she would pull her body up a little, and her head would flop and she would corkscrew back. today, she managed to pull herself to the top of the tank, and just sit there, before slowly coming down to the bottom, with no corkscrewing at all. But then she tries to navigate her way around the water dish, flops upside down, and rotates her body, before straightening it.
Right now, she is periscoping while we defrost her rat just above her tank. Like normal. so, I don't know. If it's a toxin, how in the world can we determine what toxin it was so we can prevent her from ever getting sick like this?
We have a vet appointment with a really good vet, pretty well-known in the state we live in. Only problem is that he's only in the hospital about 2-3 times/month. but with her improving, I don't think it's terrible to wait for a good vet. He works directly with the pet store we purchased her from as well.
Ok, sorry for the dissertation. I'm just really worried about my baby. she was my birthday purchase, and even though she's aloof, I still love her.
It could even be some kind of reaction to the adhesive that may have been absorbed through her skin...which I doubt...but very hard to know. The kind of trauma that causes this usually has to affect the nervous system in some way, and adhesion as you describe would be superficial with perhaps some peripheral localized bruising.
I had one snake do this, a boa constrictor (one of my first) in the late 90's...she ended up having leukemia and was euthanized. I am sure it's very hard for you, but be patient, keep her in quarantine in a simple cage with paper towel as substrate, and keep an eye out. Keep handling to a minimum, and feed as normal. It's really all you can do until a professional can intervene with further advice.
Just making doubly sure here...you don't have no-pest strips/vapona around them at all, do you?
Never apologize for going into detail...it's what we need in order to try and help!
GyGbeetle
12-30-16, 03:19 PM
No pest control is used inside the house for any reason. So I don't know what that is you're asking, but we definitely aren't using it. I have fur babies and I have really horrible asthma so we try and keep chemicals to a minimum. Only the regular house cleaning stuff. For cleaning out her tanks (and all their tanks), we use primarily water, sometimes we'll put a little hand soap on it if it's bad, and then rinse off so there's no soap residue.
Another thought we had was whether there was some house cleaner in the bathtub when we gave her a bath. We gave her 2 wash downs before she was fed because she pooped all over me and a little on herself while I was handling her. It was a lot of poop, so she got a bath. We usually sanitize the bath with disinfectant between snakes to avoid cross contamination and I don't recall if we had done that between her 2 baths. I'm hoping we weren't that careless, but it was the day before Xmas with 3 kids screaming throughout the house. Either way, I'm hoping the vet will tell us more.
I have a general mistrust of vets. I lost another snake about a month ago where I'm sure the vet possibly steered us wrong and wanted a huge amount of money to maybe figure out what was wrong with her. Turns out it was congenital. But in all my years of cat rescue I've had vets misdiagnose the animals then prey on the emotional to extort money.
I'm glad you don't even know what it is, because it's just awful stuff. A LOT of people have messed up their animals by using vapona strips over years as a "preventative" for mites and it's something that people still often overlook even though it's been known in the hobby for 20 years or so to have some nasty effects, and an even longer track record for harmful effects outside of the hobby. The stuff shouldn't even be sold in my opinion. If you google Vapona, something will surely come up.
The household cleaner residue in the bath could be the culprit but it's tough to call.
There are many competent and trustworthy vets. The key to finding one is to ask others around in your area. You really must find one that is a true specialist and not just familiar with snakes. Hopefully that's what has happened and you've found a good one that will not take advantage of the situation.
GyGbeetle
12-30-16, 10:26 PM
The pet store where we adopted Charlotte and 5 more snakes highly recommended this vet. As have a bunch of people in the area. And the owner of the pet store said this guy won't gouge us on vetting. So I'm hopeful.
We are now several hours after feeding and she's doing great. I'm hopeful she won't regurg; she hasn't up to this point.
Will update this post after her apt. Hopefully it's just me being a dumb human, and will resolve over time. She really is beautiful when she lifts her whole body up to try and get out of the tank. I hope to see her do that again
snip
Yes, and just to make it clear;
IBD has been found in other species as well; Bothriechis marchi, Lampropeltis Getula spp., from what I read. Likely there are many more species affected but not tested for IBD at all and snake died due to "some RI" or w.e.
It's pretty safe to assume IBD can infect any snake, clinical signs, onset, and severity vary by case. Some snakes die from IBD without showing any signs at all.
GyGbeetle
01-07-17, 03:49 PM
Just took Charlotte to the vet today and the vet believes this may be IBD, even though it presents only with the upper body issue. I'm devastated, but my husband keeps reminding me not to jump to conclusions until the test comes back, which may not be for 2 weeks. The thought of losing my entire collection is freaking me out
PsychoSnake
01-07-17, 04:38 PM
I'm sorry. I really do hope it's not IBD.
Could it be toxic exposure from the substrate?
GyGbeetle
01-07-17, 05:29 PM
I'm sorry. I really do hope it's not IBD.
Could it be toxic exposure from the substrate?
I hope so. But all the other snakes used the same substrate so I don't know why only 1 snake would have symptoms and no one else. The vet, after seeing Charlotte and hearing about the other snakes, did not believe it was toxin exposure.
We get CBC results Friday. IBD PCR could be up to 2 weeks. I probably won't be sleeping for 2 weeks.
MartinD
01-07-17, 05:37 PM
..........But in all my years of cat rescue I've had vets misdiagnose the animals then prey on the emotional to extort money.
I'm keeping everything crossed for you and Charlotte.
When I book an appointment with my vet here in the UK I pay the consultation fee, but if they ask me to take the snake back in say 5, 7 or 10 days, I don't have to pay any fee only for extra medication if needed.
PsychoSnake
01-07-17, 09:01 PM
When I book an appointment with my vet here in the UK I pay the consultation fee, but if they ask me to take the snake back in say 5, 7 or 10 days, I don't have to pay any fee only for extra medication if needed.
It's the same with my vet. My vet has actually given me the better half of the deal considering how much I pester him.
GyGbeetle
01-08-17, 01:55 AM
It's the same with my vet. My vet has actually given me the better half of the deal considering how much I pester him.
Hah! I don't know about this vet's policy. I do know that I primed the staff with the expectation that when I get lab results I will probably need roughly 30 mins of phone time to ask all the questions I'll have saved up between now and then. They said they'll be fine with it. We'll see how fine they'll be after they have to be on the receiving end of it.
SerpentineDream
01-08-17, 01:20 PM
I hope so. But all the other snakes used the same substrate so I don't know why only 1 snake would have symptoms and no one else. The vet, after seeing Charlotte and hearing about the other snakes, did not believe it was toxin exposure.
We get CBC results Friday. IBD PCR could be up to 2 weeks. I probably won't be sleeping for 2 weeks.
The hand sanitizer you used in the container that held the used/reused substrate... is it possible some residue from that could have permeated the substrate? What's in it?
Also, what kind of soap do you use? It can be hard to get every single trace of it, even with rinsing. Any dyes, fragrances, chemicals?
I'm also suspicious of the bathtub cleanser. Lysol in particular is something I've been warned against using anywhere near snakes.
Those 3 things all popped out at me as possibilities for chemical exposure.
GyGbeetle
01-08-17, 05:40 PM
The hand sanitizer is this generic aloe stuff that we use before handling all the snakes. You know, that's kinda what I thought too. On the hands it evaporates quickly. But if it's residue on the sides of the plastic tub, it can absorb into the substrate. Doesn't evaporate before touching the skin.
We use Scrubbing Bubbles in the tub. We usually clean between snakes. My husband does a better job than me because he's got longer arms. That's also another possibility.
She ate yesterday again (3rd rat since this started) with no issues. And she gave me a beautiful full body shed when I woke up this morning. Yesterday at the vet she kept pulling her whole body up the side of the carrier we brought her in. This time not even using the side of the tub like she normally does. She peaked up, said hello, put her chin on the edge, waited for someone to stop her, then pulled herself out. I bring this up because it's the first time I've seen her do this since it all started. She was then holding her head up like she used to do.
GyGbeetle
01-08-17, 05:46 PM
Oh yeah, the vet kept trying to flip her on her back, to see how she'd resolve. She wasn't cooperating, and kept slithering away. He kept doing it, she kept flipping over and slithering away. He did it once, where she laid on her back, looked up at him, waited, and then flipped and tried to get under the door. I know I'm grasping at straws with this, but nothing about her symptoms seem to fit IBD. I may reach out to Dr Jacobson, who helped develop the IBD PCR test, just to see. Or maybe I should just stop being frantic about it and wait for th results.
Oh yeah, the vet kept trying to flip her on her back, to see how she'd resolve. She wasn't cooperating, and kept slithering away. He kept doing it, she kept flipping over and slithering away. He did it once, where she laid on her back, looked up at him, waited, and then flipped and tried to get under the door. I know I'm grasping at straws with this, but nothing about her symptoms seem to fit IBD. I may reach out to Dr Jacobson, who helped develop the IBD PCR test, just to see. Or maybe I should just stop being frantic about it and wait for th results.
Yup, and actually the righting reflex that's not really a test for IBD... seeing how a snake resolves being put on the back can be indicative of several causes... just to name a few; neurological damage, spinal damage, weak muscle tone, problem with the vestibular system, and so on.. It's just a general health check.
The problem comes that the reflex itself is heavily dependent on the temperature the animal is at, and its state (f.e- in brumation). I haven't ever found any data as in how this reflex should work under different conditions, I guess a good vet should know by experience as there seems to be no medical research in this area.
I currently have a MBK that doesn't right himself and needs a vet inspection to rule out some of the nasty causes it may have.
A healthy snake should right himself, head first, and almost instantly when at good temperature.
GyGbeetle
01-08-17, 08:15 PM
I'm feeling more and more optimistic about her prognosis. One thing the vet said was she could've hit her head on the water dish while doing some of her acrobatics, which would be a pretty bad head trauma. If you've ever watched a video of a healthy Woma, they are insanely active. Charlotte is no different. So I kinda hope it was some sort of toxicity, or maybe she hit her head. The fact that she can right herself and even started playing with the vet I thought was a good sign
GyGbeetle
01-13-17, 04:23 PM
Blood work came back negative! A fecal sample showed that she was riddled with parasites, so we're giving her some parasite medicine (10 day cycle). She doesn't like the parasite medicine. Her movements are about 98% back to normal. I'm so thrilled!!!!! We're still waiting for the IBD test results, but at this point, the vet does not feel that IBD is the cause for this.
And I found a new way of volunteering my background to help enhance further research into exotics with this vet!
A much better situation. Glad it is the case and hope it gets resolved quickly.
MartinD
01-13-17, 06:08 PM
That is great news. Here's to a quick recovery
PsychoSnake
01-13-17, 07:22 PM
Blood work came back negative! A fecal sample showed that she was riddled with parasites, so we're giving her some parasite medicine (10 day cycle). She doesn't like the parasite medicine. Her movements are about 98% back to normal. I'm so thrilled!!!!! We're still waiting for the IBD test results, but at this point, the vet does not feel that IBD is the cause for this.
And I found a new way of volunteering my background to help enhance further research into exotics with this vet!
Oh congrats! Fingers crossed!
GyGbeetle
01-13-17, 09:11 PM
Thank you! I'm so relieved. These guys are like my kids. And after losing the baby boa in November, which I still feel so guilty for, I've been crying off and on since this all started. Thank you for being such a supportive community.
MartinD
01-14-17, 03:52 AM
Thank you! I'm so relieved. These guys are like my kids. And after losing the baby boa in November, which I still feel so guilty for, I've been crying off and on since this all started. Thank you for being such a supportive community.
I finally started keeping snakes after my wife died in Nov 2015 and I get so much comfort from them and I can honestly say if I hadn't got them when I did I wouldn't be writing this now, unless heaven has got wifi lol.
GyGbeetle
01-15-17, 04:03 PM
I finally started keeping snakes after my wife died in Nov 2015 and I get so much comfort from them and I can honestly say if I hadn't got them when I did I wouldn't be writing this now, unless heaven has got wifi lol.
I'm glad you did. And thankful you're here. I'm sure the snakes are plenty grateful too
PsychoSnake
01-15-17, 09:09 PM
I finally started keeping snakes after my wife died in Nov 2015 and I get so much comfort from them and I can honestly say if I hadn't got them when I did I wouldn't be writing this now, unless heaven has got wifi lol.
Wow... it's amazing what these animals.can do. My Rosy Boa Daisy saved me.
dave himself
01-16-17, 02:44 AM
Glad to hear everything is starting to work out for you :)
GyGbeetle
03-05-17, 11:27 AM
Woke up this morning to Charlotte corkscrewing. Very mild case. I'll premise this with the fact that last night, paper towels for everyone's tanks were treated with PAM after 5+ weeks of treating with Nix. Just the paper towels. Her and all the other snakes sat in warm soapy water in plastic bins for about 6 hours (it was supposed to be overnight, but one of our retics escaped from her locked bin. Locked. Bin. I mean seriously? This at least answers the question of whether we will get AP cages or a rack system for the big guys).
And I'll mention no other snakes reacted to the PAM. So we took the paper towels out, sterilized her tank twice, put her towel back in, and I've been watching her resolving since we woke up.
Are womas just more sensitive to chemicals than other pythons? That's what I'm thinking; she just has ultra sensitivity to non-household chemicals. So, we will not ever, EVER, treat her tank with PAM ever again.
And then my son woke up with pink eye. I swear, we can't just get one issue at a time. It's hard being a grown up with all these kids, scaley and otherwise.
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