Not a big fan of wc

[Xetox]

I think that there is plenty of heps alreay that can be breed, I mean that is the purpose of field collecting is to introduce new blood and I don't have a problem with that!

But I think as hobbiest we should stop and think before we go collecting.........

[BWSmith]

Good topic.

I will probably see a hundred snakes this year and may only keep 2 or 3. But that dpends on what I find too. I have a list of species that I need ofr educational programs. Oddly enough a Corn Snake is on the list. "Why not just buy one?" Because in the woods of the south, you are hardpressed to comeaccross a wild Caramel X Albino X Creamsicle X Melanistic X het for legs Corn Snake. The only way i can truly represent what is around here is to find a wild one. But I think that i am more a unique situation.

But as you mentioned, WC bring in new bloodlines. The average person going out herping nd keeping a few odds and ends are not going to hurt the environment. But you have to be logical and you have to be ethical. if you find a Rainbow Snake, let it go unless you have a healthy supplyof feeder eels! One of my deals is that I don't really sell anything I catch, they are for me. Or I may catch them for someone elses collection if they tell me to keep an eye out for a particular species.

[Xetox]

I agree....for personal use I think its fine my big issue is all the imports that are coming in for one, I mean they ship 10's of 1000's of pythons into the country every year!! why because u can buy them wholesale for 10$ a piece and resale them for more.

I dont agree with this, yes we need imports and field finds for some things but we need to get a grip on it and try to learn how to controll it!

Here is a good article that puts it into content http://www.arbreptiles.com/cc.html

[crimsonking]

I think a great majority here "collect" only pics and memories!! (at least buy into the notion) Rarely will you find an animal that is as good as the c.b. equivalent anyway.
:Mark

[marisa]

Xetox...I agree with you. Too many of certain species are imported. While more Blood Pythons (EXAMPLE! I have no clue if to many or none have been imported lol) may need to be imported because not enough localities/blood lines around, Ball Pythons on the other hand are ridiculous, as well as Green Iguanas and many types of Parrots (birds but hey)

If people would stop buying these overly imported animals as WC then eventually it would stop. But considering that 1000's of pet stores, and 10,000's of stupid people won't stop because they can either make an easy buck or save a few bucks, I doubt the importation of these species will ever end.

Marisa

[BWSmith]

Now we have changed topics from herpers keeping their finds to imorting WC. Most herpers int he US (and I would think Canada) do not do massive amounts of collecting for profit or exportation. While these topics are related, they are not the same.

[marisa]

Well thank you for explaining that. I had no idea? lol

Dude its obivous they are not the same. We aren't all children here, you don't have to break everything down :) *L* But in Canada there aren't many people collecting wild caught snakes, and the WC we are normally speaking of are imports.

But as I look now, I notice the thread starter is from Kansas, so I did in fact take it in the wrong direction, as I assumed he was from Canada since the forum is based here.

:)

Marisa

[paul_le_snake]

personally i believe that wc and ranched are very outdated, with all the technolgy we have at our disposle why do we need to import thousands of ball pythons or other snake and lizards?
cheers
paul

[BWSmith]

Well thank you for explaining that. I had no idea?
Your welcome.

Dude its obivous they are not the same. We aren't all children here, you don't have to break everything down
Most of the time it is best to have it perfectly clear. It is amazin how vocal and opinionated people get when they do not understand the question. Clarification needed to be added so that people dont argue till they are blue in the face and then realize it was on 2 separate issues.

so I did in fact take it in the wrong direction
It is understandable, but an excellent example of why a direction needed to be clearly defined. And from the verbage set forth by the original poster, the subject was field collecting.

I think as hobbiest we should stop and think before we go collecting
As HOBBIESTS. It was not regarding imports. However, both are important issues with heated beliefs and feelings on both sides of the fence. It would make for a good debate as to when and how importing WC animals is wrong. But it should probably be a thread in the General forum unless we get much deeper into the subject of native people collecting for export and the social and economic factors involved there.

Just my 3 cents. ;)

[marisa]

Man chill out I was actually joking.

You don't always have to be so serious. Especially on a forum like this. You know, a friendly forum.

Marisa

[marisa]

.

[Xetox]

Sorry to start just a uproar :) Yes they are two different subject and I should have probally started a seperate thread....living in missouri and having access to just drive around and drive to texas/mexico and see how much of the wc is really going on kinda gets to me......I know some is good, if u run across a spieces that would be good help with new blood I am all for it....but I know alot of catchers thare are collecting and selling for just profit and I dont like that!

There are enough of us like me out there that are breeding that we dont need as much wc as we used to!

As for imports I just dont like that at all, yes like I said again we do need new blood lines coming in but those new blood lines should be going to breeders like us not to pet stores to be sold to just any new hobbiest out there!

Just my 2 cents!

[BWSmith]

You don't always have to be so serious. Especially on a forum like this. You know, a friendly forum.
On any forum, clarity is imperative. You cannot easily convey small manurisms and gestures through text.

But just FYI: This is me VERY calm. wait till we get a topic i am addament about :D

[Xetox]

I am very addament about this subject! Well at least the import part......I hate to see it going on knowing that all I can do is just what I am doing now. I am a breeder and sell to most the local pet stores around, thats bout all I know to do, and when I go to a show I make sure I know what I am buying before I buy! I just try to do my research and try to keep from buying anything that I know I could by cb!

[Lisa]

one thing to remember alot of the wc herps (like blood pythons)aren't destined for the pet trade. they are destined for skins or food. personal field collecting has hardly an impact compared to the comercial aspect of the herp trade. like crimson king, when i go out in the field i usually bring only pictures and memories back

[Steph/NY]

using the excuse of bringing "new blood" to justify wc is so disingenuous
Dogs have been bred for 100s or 1000s of years and most of the breds are completly inbreds but they seem to do just fine.
Please, don't try to use "science" to justify wc!!!

Steph

[1Vipera]

Hello,
Sorry but the aquiration of WC herps is partly inevitable.
Many species could not be established in captivity if one wasn't able to aquire wildcaught animals.
For example:captivebred Atheris hispida?very very rare.
If no A.hispida would have been caught,there wouldn't have been the first captive breeding in 2000(Snakes of the World,Costa Rica [Meidinger, R. (2000): Erfolgreiche Haltung und Erstnachzucht von Atheris hispidus, der Rauhschuppigen Buschviper. - elaphe, Rheinbach, 8(4): 5-10.])

The list goes on and and includes virtually every herp in captivity today.
Are you trying to suggest we should inbreed or maybe crossbreed certain species?
If you think that crossbreeding doesn't do any harm,than please
explain the high ratios of deadborn and deformed offspring of Vipera ursinii rakosiensis(Hungarian meadow viper) in Hungary at present (I know negative effect of inbreeding is scientifically controversial).
Populations there are 85-100% genetically identical.
If one would have taken more care to establish and breed captive populations,those specimens could maybe have been used to bring more genetic variability into those isolated populations.
(Read up about the present situation in [Ujvari, B., T. Madsen, T. Kotenko, M. Olsson, R. Shine, and H. Witzell. 2002. Low genetic diversity threatens imminent extinction for the Hungarian meadow viper (Vipera ursinii rakosiensis). Biological Conservation 105:127-130; read it up at :www.bio.usyd.edu.au/Shinelab/shine/reprints/310.pdf ].

Genetic variability is no doubt important, as also suggested by Madsen et. al about Vipera berus (f.E.:Madsen, Thomas, B. Stille, and R. Shine. 1995. Inbreeding depression in an isolated population of adders Vipera berus. Biological Conservation 75: 113 - 118.)
The cause of inbreeding depression is often inflicted by man(habitat fragmentation).
Of course I agree the use of WC ball pythons should be avoided.

Best Regards, Dennis

[Xetox]

I don't agree that field collecting is wrong all in all, for new blood on a professianal basis I see no wrong....what I have a problem with is the large imports that happen every year!


I dont believe as steph does that we should imbreed, it does not matter what kinda of spiecies we are talking about that should always try to be avoided!

I mean look at arkansas ;) J/K

[Jeff Hathaway]

I think Steph was referring to species which are common in the pet trade, not Atheris hispida or various other things which are certainly NOT common or well established. Her example, dogs, is only one species. We could select MANY herp species for which new blood is hardly required. For example, it bothers me when I hear about people deciding to collect a wild corn snake for "new blood". There are limited circumstances where this is justified (to me, anyway), and most pet trade species would not fall into this category.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Vanan]

BTW, one of the most inbred pets out there are dogs! Why do you think almost all purebred dogs have tendencies to a list of health problems? Inbreeding is not ok. We (me and Katt) take a very strong stand in that matter. Some species of snakes are more tolerable to being inbred than others.

As for bringing more WC's, I agree with Xetox. Best left in the hands of pros seeking out new species and new bloodlines. Not to be brought in wholesale and sit at a store for months and either rot away there or be picked up by a newbie.

Sorry Steph but most things boil down to a science. Importing rare and endangered species may be vital to their existence.

[Burmies]

I just love being a spectator.

Burmies

[Xetox]

Originally posted by Burmies
I just love being a spectator.

Burmies


I agree! There is nothing better than seeing a species you love in the wild, and even interacting with it on a limited basis!

[Jeff Hathaway]

I will agree that there are times when removing additional animals from the wild to provide genetic diversity is a good idea. I also agree that it should be done by people who no what they're doing, not someone on a recreational field trip, and certainly not in large numbers for resale.

Also, for those species which are rare or threatened, removal of wild specimens should be done in the manner that is least damaging to the wild population as possible. For example, with turtles, removing hatchlings, as most of them would die anyway. Even better, remove eggs, and then you can make them whatever sex you need if the species is TSD.

Purebred dogs are definitely quite inbred. Isn't that essentially what the concept of 'purebred' guarantees? When you continually try to breed things so that they look exactly alike, this is bound to happen. Dogs, as a species, are not all that inbred. All you have to do is start breeding shepherds with retrievers and huskies, etc. and things are okay. You don't need to go breeding them 'wild specimens'.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[BWSmith]

Boy, this thread has grown since I last checked it. I am just going to go off in a thousand different directions here so bear with me and see if it makes sense. :D

First, let's define the different types of field collecting. We have personal "herping". Generally this is someone experienced that is looking for a particular species generally gor their personal collection. This may be to get a new bloodline, for personal enjoyment, or for educational purposes. We also have scientific collection. These are species captured for the purpose of ecological, environmental or biological research. Most of these animals will be killed. For behavior studies, they will not. But snakes are a great indicator species for chemical levels int he environment. Then we have "harvesting" wild snakes. This includes those that keep everything they catch for the purpose of resale no matter the species, condition, or health (I have seen Queen Snakes for sale!! Who the hell is going to get freshly molted crayfish for feeders?). Harvested snakes are also pretty much all imports. It is amazing how many mambas, cobras, Gaboons and other venomous come in with noose marks around their necks. African and Asian snakes, particularly, are harvested by the thousands. We have probably tens of thousands of Ball Pythons alone come in each year.

The Personal Collector: I fall into this catagory. Someone mentioned Corn Snakes earlier. I have every intention of catching and keeping a Corn Snake this year. In the stateof GA, an Educational Permit is required for any nonvenomous snake, this includes Corn Snakes. Why doesn't he just buy one? For Educational Purposes, I try to represent what people may find in their yard. I doubt very much that a farmer in Georgia is going to run across a Creamsickle X Candycane X Snow X Licorice het for Alligator Corn Snake. I make it a point to use primarily WC animals for education as they are indicitive of the animals in the area. I will submit that often times a snake is originally collected for a personal collection, but over time, it finds itself in the trade. Happens quite a bit. Those of us that deal in large numbers of animals are often trading and so forth.

Collection for Scientific Purposes: Ther is no doubt as to the validity of this collection, as long as it is done with scruples.

Harvesting Snakes: I don't care for this practice, but that makes me a hipocrit. Basically, no matter how anyone feels about it, it is here to stay. Where there is demand, there will be supply. It is generally not the average herper that buys most of these animals, at least not knowingly. One of the largest importers in the US is Strictly Reptiles. Due to the volume, they can Low Ball about anyone on price. What are pet shops looking for? The cheapest price and the greatest profit. So if they can get a Ball Python CB for $30 and sell it for $60 or get a WC for $6 and sell it for $60, no mystery what they are going to do. Many will even tell you that the animals are CB. Bottom line is that 90% of all animals in pet shops are WC. Whether you or I buy a WC or Import here and there is actually fairly inconcequencial in the scheme of things. I would venture to say that most experienced herpers do not by animals from "Pet Shops", Herp Shop maybe, but not the traditional chain Pet Store. Even in Herp Shops a large percentage of the animals will be wc. Little tip: If it has ticks, chances are that it is NOT CB. If all the sudden, there are 30 adults of about any species, chances are they are not CB. Hell, they still mport WC Columbian Red Tails!

If we break it down to simplicity, then we are all in the wrong. We are ALL keeping animals that are wild animals. If I were a Purist, I would not keep venomous, I would not keep snakes at all, basically, I would be the Humane Society (but enemies of the herp world is another rant). We are all hipocrits. We all have our own ideas of what is ethical and what is not. We want to keep our animals, but now that we have them, we don't want to see any taken from the wild. Even though that is where they all originally came from. I am probably the biggest hipocrit of all. I dont care for imports, but if it something I have been unable to find CB, I may get it. I may keep a specimen or 5 each year from the field. I am an advocate of the right to keep venomous, yet I will fight to my dying breath condemning venomoids. I have no idea where this post was going, I guess it is just a bunch of random thoughts to ponder. I need more coffee.

[Xetox]

I am not saying it don't happen or that I have not done it myself or that I won't collect a speciman in the future for personal reasons and at that I know AI am a hipocrit. But I still don't like the large scale collecting and there is small things we can do to help stop it.

Here is a great article that I may have already posted but I thought it was good info about this subject....check it out and let me know what you think!@

http://www.arbreptiles.com/cc.html

[J_Riley]

Like BW said, the only way to stop imports is to remove the demand. The only way to remove the demand is education. However, trying to educate a parent about snakes b/c thier current 2 year old child might decide they want a [insert herp species here] when the family ventures into a pet store 6 years down the road is just not feasible. The only other option is to sell CB specimens cheaper than the cost of an import.

So let me ask the tough question. All you people that breed and sell to pet stores, why don't you GIVE your CB offspring to the petstores and help alleviate the demand for imports?? Same reason imports will continue - M O N E Y...

[Xetox]

I do sell to the local pet stores around my area and I do sell for the same price that they would pay for imports or wc. And in turn they promote CB animals and allow me to leave handouts at the store to try to educate about it!

I try to do my part as best that I can!