Keep animal in cage = cruel?

[Justaguy]

I want to start of this post by saying that I'm not a member of any animal rights organization and simply want to discuss this with you.


I have been raised with both cats and dogs and even reptiles, lizards and turles. I'm not a man in my 30´s who have always been missing the time with my animals. I love animals but of course, most of all cats and dogs.

Lately I have gotten a bit of interest in snakes, I actually have been thinking a lot about getting one. I've done my research, bought some books about how to raise them. Maybe within the next 2 months or so I'm planning to get one.

However I read a debate were PETA talked about how cruel it is to keep reptiles in enclosure and that most of them feel very stressed.

I really want to know if it's moraly right to buy a snake as I don't want to buy a snake if it's such a crime, according to PETA

Please keep a civilized tone and be respectful to each other
Sorry for my english as it's just my 3rd language.

[Aaron_S]

PETA talks a lot about the cruelty of owning cats and dogs as well. Doesn't seem to bother you though so why should this?

[Andy_G]

It is very hard to answer this diplomatically, but I will do my best as your intentions seem to be to just look for an answer and look for opinions.

PETA is against the keeping of any animal as a pet, including cats and dogs. Their motives are to completely deconstruct the pet industry and give equal rights to animals as if they were human, meaning that you couldn't own one or keep one as a pet. They literally consider playing a game of fetch with your dog to be curel and confusing. There is a large difference between animal rights and animal welfare, and PETA is solely pushing animal rights while simultaneously killing more cats and dogs than any other establishment out there. I believe that everything they produce or publish or any entity that is backed by them or that they have association with is extremely biased and driven by their own motives, not fact based. They have no interest in animal wellfare or wellbeing. If you have any type of pet and you support PETA, you're really supporting the enemy.

A stressed reptile would have problems eating, breeding, and will have other ongoing health issues. This simply isn't the case with the majority of them being kept in captivity. Reptiles in captivity don't have to worry about inclimate weather, being afraid of predators, being afraid of open space, there's no competition, and there's a steady food and water supply. Keeping and breeding reptiles in captivity also reduces the impact of wild collecting due to another source as a supply for the pet trade...not to mention conservation of certain species at risk. Does that sound cruel to you?

[Jim Smith]

Justaguy, Fair enough question and while I suspect that you will get somewhat biased answers from any forum where the members are all reptile keepers, you will also get honest and sincere responses from people who love their animals. Using PETA'S logic would suggest that all animals should be allowed to roam free as if they were in nature. That includes fish from aquariums, cats, dogs, horses, cows, pigs, etc. Don;t forget that PETA is the group that started calling ocean fish Sea Kittens to get people to stop harvesting and eating fish.

You will find that the large majority of reptile lovers take excellent care of their animals, meticulously maintaining optimum temperatures and humidity and providing a balanced and consistent diet. I would suggest that the reptiles kept in captivity by most serious pet owners are probably much less stressed than if they were in the wild, hunting for their next meal and trying to not become the next meal for any of their predators. I suggest that you try to visit one of the reptile shows if they have them in your area. You will gain a better idea of how fanatical some reptile keepers are for keeping their animals, and get to see lots of different species of snakes to hopefully help you decide which species you'd like to keep. Good luck and please keep us posted as you go through your decision process.

[akane]

Most has been said so not as diplomatically; PETA is crazy. :rolleyes:

To throw an idea out there that is a bit of a compromise try looking into bio-active cages. It doesn't work for everyone. I fully understand the need for bins and racks in large collections and other situations and just the choice to do so but as many as I can I put in natural enclosures. It's a whole different system that you don't clean and sterilize everything consistently or sometimes even ever. They do take a lot of work to clean if you don't add a cleanup crew though so the inbetween with a natural cage before going fully bio-active is actually more difficult depending on the complexity of the setup. It will take a ton more research into substrates, layers, and cleanup crews. Many don't suggest it for beginners but it depends on the person. After watching my rosy boa on paper layers for awhile and not being satisfied with any bedding I found I launched into a desert tank within a couple weeks of my first snake and just keep getting more complicated. This is my dekayi's enclosure and then my bullsnake (why I took pics before I wiped the glass I don't know).

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Kakuru/DSCN3989_zpsbnj4dqwm.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Kakuru/DSCN3989_zpsbnj4dqwm.jpg.html)

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Kakuru/DSCN3997_zps9yvb0gzu.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Kakuru/DSCN3997_zps9yvb0gzu.jpg.html)

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Kakuru/DSCN4020_zpssv3j9mov.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Kakuru/DSCN4020_zpssv3j9mov.jpg.html)

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Koujin/DSCN3985_zpswx1byj0j.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Koujin/DSCN3985_zpswx1byj0j.jpg.html)

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Koujin/DSCN3979_zpswvytesof.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Koujin/DSCN3979_zpswvytesof.jpg.html)

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Koujin/DSCN4043_zpsjkpvherp.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Koujin/DSCN4043_zpsjkpvherp.jpg.html)

They are far more complex under the surface. You don't just throw some soil in. Under tank heat is difficult or impossible so you are relying on lamps for heating up rocks and similar items to still get that belly heat. Which goes with the theory that in the wild it gets warmer under the sun and cooler and damper as you go deeper into the ground. It's a different method if you can't get over the plain cage idea and can put in the research and setup effort along with they often take more space per size of snake to maintain your mini ecosystem and balance the snake's needs.

[MartinD]

Justaguy, take a look at how snakes live in the wild and you will see that snakes prefer small secure rodent burrows, small crevices in rocks, ball pythons have been found underneath termite mounds and the reason is that this makes them feel safe and secure and also reduces the chance of being attacked by predators and that is why we keep them in this way as it makes them feel secure.

Has as been said that 99% of reptile keepers take extremely good care of their animals and that includes some expensive vet fee's as well and you certainly would not spend that kind of money on something you didn't love and care for.

[akane]

One site said in the wild the northern pine snake I was looking at spends 85% of it's time sitting in a burrow and the rest mostly hunting gophers underground. My dekayi is most active because he eats a lot of small food he digs for or finds on the surface like slugs and worms so he's always looking but he still spends a lot of time sitting various places watching for movement. Otherwise I would say an active snake is one you see in more than two (sometimes 1 depending on species) places during a period of daylight or darkness.

[sirtalis]

PETA talks a lot about the cruelty of owning cats and dogs as well. Doesn't seem to bother you though so why should this?



This lol ^^ Also I doubt many snakes would fair well if they were allowed to roam free like a dog or cat

[sirtalis]

Most has been said so not as diplomatically; PETA is crazy. :rolleyes:

To throw an idea out there that is a bit of a compromise try looking into bio-active cages. It doesn't work for everyone. I fully understand the need for bins and racks in large collections and other situations and just the choice to do so but as many as I can I put in natural enclosures. It's a whole different system that you don't clean and sterilize everything consistently or sometimes even ever. They do take a lot of work to clean if you don't add a cleanup crew though so the inbetween with a natural cage before going fully bio-active is actually more difficult depending on the complexity of the setup. It will take a ton more research into substrates, layers, and cleanup crews. Many don't suggest it for beginners but it depends on the person. After watching my rosy boa on paper layers for awhile and not being satisfied with any bedding I found I launched into a desert tank within a couple weeks of my first snake and just keep getting more complicated. This is my dekayi's enclosure and then my bullsnake (why I took pics before I wiped the glass I don't know).

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Kakuru/DSCN3989_zpsbnj4dqwm.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Kakuru/DSCN3989_zpsbnj4dqwm.jpg.html)

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Kakuru/DSCN3997_zps9yvb0gzu.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Kakuru/DSCN3997_zps9yvb0gzu.jpg.html)

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Kakuru/DSCN4020_zpssv3j9mov.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Kakuru/DSCN4020_zpssv3j9mov.jpg.html)

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Koujin/DSCN3985_zpswx1byj0j.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Koujin/DSCN3985_zpswx1byj0j.jpg.html)

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Koujin/DSCN3979_zpswvytesof.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Koujin/DSCN3979_zpswvytesof.jpg.html)

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Koujin/DSCN4043_zpsjkpvherp.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Koujin/DSCN4043_zpsjkpvherp.jpg.html)

They are far more complex under the surface. You don't just throw some soil in. Under tank heat is difficult or impossible so you are relying on lamps for heating up rocks and similar items to still get that belly heat. Which goes with the theory that in the wild it gets warmer under the sun and cooler and damper as you go deeper into the ground. It's a different method if you can't get over the plain cage idea and can put in the research and setup effort along with they often take more space per size of snake to maintain your mini ecosystem and balance the snake's needs.

I've been trying to figure out how to do a bioactive desert enclosure, not trying to hijack the thread but how does that work? What insects did you use if any were used haha?

[Humble308]

Akane you have an intereting enclosure setup, it looks similiar to where I'd like to go with mine. How often is something like this needing a "refresh" or complete change. I could of swore I saw the same bull snake on the Pitouphis Enthusiasit group on FB the other day?

To topic, I wouldn't say caging a reptile = cruelty. As long as husbandry parameters are met or exceeded a reptile can have a very stress free life. Many wild reptiles are prone to parasites which can induce stress enough to kill, not to mention injuries that could get infected. My snakes never have to look for food and they're not in any danger as long as I do my part.

I would say don't worry about it, get the snake and enjoy it. Interesting topic.

[sattva]

I have a little long haired chihuahua who is classified as a service dog... He has been a god sent to me when I needed it most... He depends on me as much as I depend on him... I have had many dogs in my life but never one that loves me like this dog loves me...

Man started domesticating dogs and cats back when we were cave men... If we hadn't we would have driven them to extinction... Man destroys what he does not want...

I see my snakes as almost domesticated animals living in penthouses, with ever need meet, whether or not they realize it... In the wild they are subject to all kinds of problems; mites, parasites, and lets face it... their food for a lot of other animals out there... So Cruel??? Naaaaa!

[akane]

Some will keep a secondary culture of their main cleanup crew that is better fed so they can add more as needed. If setup right though you shouldn't need to change anything. Everything will just be broken down into basically more soil. Some add plants straight to the substrate if they can with their inhabitants and they feed off the broken down material.

In a desert you have to look more at beetles. Mealworms and superworms will eat anything and are easy to keep alive so most common. Dermestid beetles are also used and more meat eating. They are often used to cleanup dead insects in feeder insect cultures. There are a few hardy, low humidity isopods but they still need some moist sand/soil under leaves or wood. I did have a cleanup crew sales site that listed the humidity and temp each of their isopods and springtail species survived in best but they closed it down without warning and have no email so I can't even recover that useful info.

[Piggybuns]

Absolutely 100% of anything PETA says should never be taken seriously. Ever. Other people in the thread have already explained in detail why, so I won't bother to type out the same thing over again.

But I'll say this: if you were to actually free-roam a reptile according to what PETA says, they would die. Please keep your reptile in an actual terrarium with a heat source and where they won't crawl into unsafe spaces in your home. A reptile is not a cat or dog.

PETA is a walking hypocritical joke. Do not take their advice on ANYTHING, or in regards to ANY animal.

[pet_snake_78]

This is how concerned they are with animals PETA Reportedly Steals and Kills a Family Dog | The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-anthony-cooper/peta-steals-and-kills-lit_b_6156196.html)

They think animals are better of dead that being kept as pets, even cats and dogs.

[akane]

If you really want to present the anti-peta side there is an entire site devoted to their kill rate and sketchy animal collection but most sites don't allow posting that strongly against PETA. Plus it gets equally as graphic as many PETA sites and vids.

The real thing to keep in mind is to do your own research and take your own stance instead of following any 1 group. They all have agendas. Exception is if they match your opinion after you take the time to form one without them. I left a group that, among many things, would not allow any bad word against PETA because I said if you have to control what your members are exposed to in order to keep them on your side then you have to start questioning if you really are on the correct side. I have since seen many different ways including in different countries that various animals can be kept. Much goes against what is common in my country and on the popular forums but still results in a healthy, happy animal. I've tested a few of those methods on my own animals (if it looks like it can be done in a safe way) to see if they are superior. I've learned to pick what I think is right for myself even if it means I have to walk away from every forum and group and figure out keeping a species on my own. Usually in those situations it's because everyone is just following a small group who don't even want to allow me to post my view. I've gotten "hate mail" PMs on some sites without having insulted anyone or put down anyone's view. Places don't have to match my opinions. They only have to allow me to logically post my side and calmly say why they think it is wrong. I take everything, everyone says into account even when it doesn't look like it. So when a question like this comes up I try to present sides that aren't already well explained and then say what I have determined is the best solution for me at this time. I am constantly tweaking for the best husbandry methods I can find for me and each animal species so I can only give the info I have right now. If you ask me in 3years I might have different info to present.

[Justaguy]

I'm extremely happy for all replies.
I don't know if I should reply to each one of you but I read all of your posts.
I'm happy that you all agree on this one. I didn't expect that anyone on a reptile forum would actually be an extremist.

I wanted to hear you guys opinion on this and thanks so much to all who did bother to reply. After some more search it seems that you can find many questionable articles about PETA.

I will most likely keep my plans to actually get a snake.

[Thatjanelady]

Peta can be a little extreme. What I will say that border lines on agreeing with Peta, if there is an option to buying a snake that was bred and born in captivity versus a wild caught, go for the captive bred/born snake because most snakes, especially for beginners, are readily available on the market.
Also, consider where the snake's food comes from and that they are humanly killed for our pet's food.

[MartinD]

Apparently PETA stands for Please Excuse The A**holes

[sirtalis]

Apparently PETA stands for Please Excuse The A**holes


PETA-People Eating Tasty Animals ( I've seen this somewhere before but can't remember where haha)

[cat001]

I know this is an old thread now and has been answered very well but the subject of animals rights vs animal welfare is quite an interesting one.

I might be repeating what's already been said but in a nutshell, Animal Rightists hold the belief that humans and animals are both equally subjects of moral concern, humans do not possess a greater importance than animals as one animal is not more important than another. Animal Rights also believes that animals be granted the same rights as humans in order to gain this status of equality. Humans are afforded certain legal rights which allow for the protection of an individual’s basic interests. This requires understanding of such rights to know when one is entitled to compensation if ones rights are violated and to recognise that interference with another’s rights leaves the individual liable to punishment. Animals cannot be afforded the same rights as humans because animals cannot justly make claims to such rights nor understand the rights they may be given, nor recognise the rights of other animals. For this reason the Animal Rights philosophy simply does not work. I find Animal Rightists focus on fulfilling their ideology, their human made construct of an ideal animal-human relationship but do not pay much attention to the actual practical welfare of animals.

Although animals cannot be granted human rights, their life and well-being can be made secure by laws that confer on them certain moral rights such as the right to subsistence, i.e. sufficient food and shelter and other rights to physical necessities of biological survival. Animals are outside the community of rights, but welfarists still recognise that we have duties towards them. These moral rights are provided to our reptiles through the construction of habitats that provide appropriate heating, humidity and other environmental considerations and allows for the expression of the animals natural behavioural repertoires. Animal Rights views this as caging and imprisoning an animal, therefore it is cruel, while Animal Welfare decides if the action is cruel by how it actually effects the animal. A cruel action is one that harms the animals either physically or psychologically, if the animal is content with it's surroundings and is in no way suffering and the environment is supportive rather than suppressive (as it is in this instance with reptile habitations) than their is no cruelty, ergo it is not cruel.

Welfarism deems any sentient animal to be worthy of moral consideration, that is animals with the capacity to suffer or creatures that have a perspective or point of view of its own. They argue strongly for the welfare of the animal focussing specifically on the well-being of individuals.

The actions of Animal Rights protestors have damaged ecosystems through the release of invasive species (e.g. the release of Mink in Hampshire devastating native inhabitants), halted conservation efforts (e.g. halting the conservation of the Islands of Mauritius and its Endangered Reptiles by delaying the removal of invasive species for several years), not to mention the level of criminal activity committed by such groups, whose moral actions are similar to that of terrorist organisations. Animal Rights goes by the philosophy of achieving ends by any means (meaning they're willing to turn a blind eye to individual acts of terrorism in order to get their point across) while Animal Welfare believes in achieving ends by reasonable means.

At my University where I studied Animal Science we had a module in Ethics. The Ethics tutor would invite people from different ethical philosophies to tell us their point of view. He had to stop inviting the Animal Rights Activist because the students, who were initially sympathetic ended up being quite angry when he'd explain what Animal Rights was and show himself to be a hypocrite (e.g. believing all animals should be in the wild yet he'd own pets, not believing in animal research but taking medication derived from animal research, etc). My Ethics teacher was adamant we should keep open minds about all philosophies but even he couldn't help but to cringe at the Animal Rights philosophy.

On a trip to South Africa we went to Pilanesberg National Park and one of the keepers started saying how the Animal Rights group that 'helped' them to care for injured elephants from a fire some years ago did more harm than good, he seemed pretty angry and the Animal Rights groups, so in my experience those dedicated to the actual welfare of animals do not like the Animal Rights philosophy.

[MartinD]

I have met vegetarian's and vegan's who wear leather shoes and had leather sofa's and chairs, so they all seem to pick and choose what rules/ethics they think will suit them