Jag neuro issues?

[trailblazer295]

Hey all

So as some of you know I have a baby jag (among other things) carpet. Her laundry list of blood is in my other thread. I don't know much of anything on the Jag neuro issues. When she eats she strikes on target and hits. Which is more then I could say for my king. When I try to pick up her up she flees in a direct diliberate way. When I'm holding her she moves through my hands head level or pointed in the direction she is going. Only very rarely in the time I've had herhave I seen her head twist off axis and sort of flopped. I'm not sure if it's neuro related or just a very young snake learning to move as she was climbing her cage at the time and in a deli cup from the expo. My question is does a jags neuro issue change with age or if she is pretty okay now she'll be ok as an adult?

[EL Ziggy]

I don't keep jags Blaze but my understanding is the neuro issues can manifest at any time during the animal's lifetime. It's a shame too because they're among the most beautiful of all the carpets imo. Some jags have it pretty bad and others may never show any outward signs. I hope yours is in the latter group. ;)

[aaron_cg]

What Ziggy said. I have had 4 jags, and only 1 ever exhibited any neurological signs. It's not a common occurance and usually not near as noticeable as like the Spider balls.

With the biggest tip with them would be to never use chemicals in there enclosures. I use a solution of 4 parts water to 1 part white vinegar and .5 part lemon juice

[trailblazer295]

Thanks guys, she is in a planted tank at the moment and I plan to have her adult cage be bio active to aid in cleaning and humidity levels. Only the branches will need to be cleaned periodically. This will help cut down on cleaning and chemical exposure.

[Captain837]

What Ziggy said. I have had 4 jags, and only 1 ever exhibited any neurological signs. It's not a common occurance and usually not near as noticeable as like the Spider balls.

With the biggest tip with them would be to never use chemicals in there enclosures. I use a solution of 4 parts water to 1 part white vinegar and .5 part lemon juice

I have a spider that has never exhibited any serious "wobble". At most she has missed a very small percentage of strikes but so have my other snakes. Most of the spider owners I have spoken to have similar animals.
I don't know much about the jag Gene but I think the spider Gene gets a bad rap even though the serious cases are few and far between.

[Andy_G]

The trait has a rather broad spectrum as to how it's exhibited. In both spider ball pythons and jaguar carpet pythons, we are speaking of the exact same gene in how it acts, how it is reproduced, what it creates, as well as the neurological condition that is associated with it. The issue has not proven to be seperable from the gene itself through outcrossing as it wasn't created by a lack of genetic diversity. Sometimes the neuro issues manifest themselves later, and in some animals it's only under extreme stress that it's exhibited, while others corkscrew and have problems righting themselves from the beginning.

Please don't interpret the following to be an attack on anyone, but having been in the hobby for a...little while...I think the following is worth noting whether it offends or not...just my perhaps jaded/biased opinion on the whole thing...
The really bad cases are not as few and far between as you may think and the "bad rap" is actually not a bad rap at all but a reality. In this thread alone we have one member saying that jags aren't as bad as spiders and another member stating that spiders have a bad rap...How's that for confusing? It is a thought that can be extended throughout the reptile keeping community, to be sure. In my opinion it isn't okay to propogate a trait that's "only a little bit messed up" for lack of a better term, but that's just my opinion and a prime example of how greed has snuck into the hobby and taken prescendent over ethics especially over the past few decades...and by that in regards to this situation I mean that the originators and first few who worked with it, knew that it had issues but got their asking price of multiple thousands of dollars for a genetically imperfect animal that looks really neat but has known issues...and now it's regarded as okay and not a big deal. I wouldn't breed jags or spiders no matter how beautiful and striking they may be.

I'm sure others would disagree and that's fine too. They aren't inherently wrong and people can agree to disagree. :)

[Minkness]

I agree alot with what Andy said. My 1st BP was a spider and his nuro got so bad I rehomed him and have no idea how he is doing. I will never own another spider gene ANYTHING again because of this personal experience.

That being said, I do still want a jag carpet in the future.

I think Spider BPs give the worst name to Nuro because they exibit it the most strongly. I know that I may end up with a jag carpet with the same issue, though I really hope I don't. And for me, it's not greed, but vanity. I know it's wrong, I understand the genetic flaw behind it, but they are just SO DANG PRETTY!

It doesn't make it right, but werher I do or don't own one isn't going to stop the breedere. So....might as well....right? >_>

[aaron_cg]

The trait has a rather broad spectrum as to how it's exhibited. In both spider ball pythons and jaguar carpet pythons, we are speaking of the exact same gene in how it acts, how it is reproduced, what it creates, as well as the neurological condition that is associated with it. The issue has not proven to be seperable from the gene itself through outcrossing as it wasn't created by a lack of genetic diversity. Sometimes the neuro issues manifest themselves later, and in some animals it's only under extreme stress that it's exhibited, while others corkscrew and have problems righting themselves from the beginning.

Please don't interpret the following to be an attack on anyone, but having been in the hobby for a...little while...I think the following is worth noting whether it offends or not...just my perhaps jaded/biased opinion on the whole thing...
The really bad cases are not as few and far between as you may think and the "bad rap" is actually not a bad rap at all but a reality. In this thread alone we have one member saying that jags aren't as bad as spiders and another member stating that spiders have a bad rap...How's that for confusing? It is a thought that can be extended throughout the reptile keeping community, to be sure. In my opinion it isn't okay to propogate a trait that's "only a little bit messed up" for lack of a better term, but that's just my opinion and a prime example of how greed has snuck into the hobby and taken prescendent over ethics especially over the past few decades...and by that in regards to this situation I mean that the originators and first few who worked with it, knew that it had issues but got their asking price of multiple thousands of dollars for a genetically imperfect animal that looks really neat but has known issues...and now it's regarded as okay and not a big deal. I wouldn't breed jags or spiders no matter how beautiful and striking they may be.

I'm sure others would disagree and that's fine too. They aren't inherently wrong and people can agree to disagree. :)


Couldn't of said it better myself!

[NeverLift]

I have a 6 year old 75%irian jaya jag. The main thing that makes them show their neurological issues is stress.

[sockSnek]

It doesn't make it right, but werher I do or don't own one isn't going to stop the breedere. So....might as well....right? >_>

Actually I think it does make a difference. It's the same reason buying from pet stores that don't take care of their animals makes a difference. As long as you keep something profitable, people will keep doing it.

[Minkness]

The difference is, is that an individual pet store will go out of business if people boycot it. The act of breeding things will not change because one store or one breeder go out of business.

[sockSnek]

Not breeding as a whole. Just animals with neuro issues. If people aren't willing to buy a jag or spider anymore, no one would breed those.

[Minkness]

Perhaps it's the sinic in me, but I don't ever see that happening.

[Andy_G]

Not breeding as a whole. Just animals with neuro issues. If people aren't willing to buy a jag or spider anymore, no one would breed those.

If only a few were around and everybody had the same mindsight i'd agree sockSnek...but now almost all the carpets you find for sale are jag crosses of some kind these days...it's practically inescapable. A very nice thought but not one that'll trigger any mass epiphany with so many people owning and breeding so many beautiful jag and spider gene animals. I'd rescue a jag gene animal if someone couldn't take care of it anymore or something along those lines...even if it were 7 or 8 feet of sheer nastiness...but I wouldn't buy one personally from a breeder. Can't really blame those that would, though!

[Minkness]

Well said Andy =)

[sockSnek]

Ok, let me roll back what I said a bit. I didn't mean we can get everyone to stop buying jags/spiders. I meant for that sentence to just illustrate the concept of supply and demand. The lower the demand, the lower the supply.

[trailblazer295]

Hmmm this was not the outcome I expected my question to create lol

[DennisM]

Hmmm this was not the outcome I expected my question to create lol
so, let's get back to your question. it's possible that the issue may become worse. I think it is more unlikely than likely.

I currently have 8 jags in my collection ranging in age from 1 yr to 11 yr. I've also had a four others in the past. every one of them has exhibited the neuro issue to some degree. only one of the 12 has had anything other than a very mild case. a male DCI-jag who is now 10 years old had a good case of the wobble at birth. he was difficult to feed for his first year or two. the meal usually had to be offered 4-6 times before he could either hit it or find it once he was done constricting. the snake did and still does have an obvious equilibrium problem. I believe the issue worsened when he hit about 6 yrs. however, the feeding difficulties ceased after about 2 years. today he's usually successful on the first strike. he spends as much time upside down as he does right side up these days.

it sounds as though your snake has minimum "wobble". I would expect it to stay that way.