Small collection of balls.

[valkea]

Ended up picking up a few ball pythons over the last month or so. Started with a big normal who was fed live and kept in a way too big enclosure. They wanted 300$ for all of it (it was a crazy tall exo terra) and I offered to take just the snake and give him a good home. Poor guy has some scarring on his belly. He took frozen / thawed for me immediately with no hesitation.

https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/14961530_10211077397309806_1761994876_n.jpg?oh=02f d4f50a8a4165f0a2e793af26d1e13&oe=58372D3C

Next I picked up a proven breeder pastel calico male at an expo.

https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/15033663_10211145097362265_153056100_n.jpg?oh=0228 30d5749dc30e630cdc6cd8f3a6f5&oe=5837735E

And a special pastel lesser from an individual who was moving. Stuck shed is now gone.

https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/14954379_10211116939338332_1155563567_o.jpg?oh=de8 db12415153b400a22a048cb799bca&oe=583714BA

Then a pair of double het pied and orange ghost 2016s I won through an auction on another forum.

https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/15049591_10211157897602263_316724404_n.png?oh=f115 7107a2994eb4585102f297b08388&oe=58373BBF

I reached out to the breeder who produced the lucy and we ended up chatting a bunch. I explained I was really new to balls and slowly (ha) growing up a small collection. He ended up giving me a pair of het clown hatchlings.

Pastel het clown
https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/15151179_10211255043270844_1872538730_n.jpg?oh=69f 86a2445982fe720c6fc6586699248&oe=58370EEE

Lesser het clown
https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/15128570_10211255034230618_2067110833_n.jpg?oh=9e5 af81468c4edf236375a2a63d999d7&oe=58376F35

Finally, a person nearby was looking to find a good home for his Mystic Potion male and Lesser female pair. We chatted a bit, I explained I had a rack set up and didn't need enclosures and he agreed to give them to me. I've promised to give him a couple babies once he's ready to have snakes again.

https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/15146698_10211269384869375_1117345729_o.jpg?oh=e36 3aca7479844d2d6b388010bbab3c6&oe=58374D59

https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/15146771_10211269384789373_766105976_o.jpg?oh=8a15 a2e2d04df9c40100e5b6f06e1dda&oe=5836F6CE

And those are my balls haha. Most of the photos were as I unpacked so they're not great. Pretty excited about all of them!

[sattva]

Nice additions! Fun,Fun,Fun...

[dannybgoode]

Nothing wrong with a big viv for a ball - height is good too. They are semi-arboreal in the wild, particularly males.

Of course a big viv needs plenty of hidey spots but size itself is not in any way an issue for a small snake whatsoever.

Clearly if the snake shows signs of injury then the previous care was poor in general so good job in giving it a new home but don't skimp on space for him.

I have the plans for what a very experienced herpetologist (30+ years research in to snakes and lizards) considers to be the ideal ball enclosure - I'll grab a copy of it and post it up.

[sirtalis]

Nothing wrong with a big viv for a ball - height is good too. They are semi-arboreal in the wild, particularly males.

Of course a big viv needs plenty of hidey spots but size itself is not in any way an issue for a small snake whatsoever.

Clearly if the snake shows signs of injury then the previous care was poor in general so good job in giving it a new home but don't skimp on space for him.

I have the plans for what a very experienced herpetologist (30+ years research in to snakes and lizards) considers to be the ideal ball enclosure - I'll grab a copy of it and post it up.


Beat me to it haha, great minds think alike?

Those are some stunning ball pythons, the calico is really impressive!

[dave himself]

Very nice pick ups the het clowns are my favourites ;)

[RAD House]

To Danny and sirtalis, do either of you keep ball pythons?

[dannybgoode]

I don't but I've been speaking to some hugely experienced scientists/herpetologists who do and who have studied then extensively in the wild.

I have been looking into their requirements as I'm almost tempted by one. Why do you ask?

[RAD House]

I would just be hesitant to give advice on a species I have no experience with. There is a huge difference between how an animal acts in the wild to how they can be successfully kept in captivity. The reason most breeders keep them in racks is secondarily about space and more that they do better in this setup. In my experience in a rack system where they are nice and snug they are insatiable eaters. For a species that is a notoriously an unreliable eater, this seems telling. Finding an animal in a tree every now and again does not make it semi-arboreal, if you have any evidence otherwise I would love to see this. Anytime I have heard something similar it is anecdotal. Even if they were would it matter, in captivity, if the animal is an unreliable eater? I just think you may want to lay off some certainties until you have some experience yourself.

[dannybgoode]

I would just be hesitant to give advice on a species I have no experience with. There is a huge difference between how an animal acts in the wild to how they can be successfully kept in captivity. The reason most breeders keep them in racks is seconda

The reason breeders keep them in racks is convenience and profit IMO. I appreciate I am courting controversy here but I firmly believe all reptiles should be kept in as close to a naturalistic environment as possible and the more papers I read on the subject the more I am of this view.

As I say - I have researched this a lot recently and have spoken to internationally recognised herpetologists on the matter and all of them agree on this.

There is mounting evidence (and I mean peer reviewed scientific evidence) that snakes hugely benefit from enrichment and a proper environment. I am just waiting for a word doc summarising the main papers on this subject and I will share it on here.

[dannybgoode]

And yes - I appreciate your point about not owning one and it is entirely valid but I would not comment on something I do not have good knowledge of.#

For example I am happy to explain the principles of flight and yet cannot pilot a plane.

[RAD House]

But should someone take your advice over an actual pilot? Sorry about the big edit of my post, but I prematurely posted by accident.

[dannybgoode]

It depends - the principles of flight are the principles of flight. One does not need to know how to fly an aircraft to thoroughly and properly understand how it stays in the air and stays safe.

A plane designer may not be able to fly it but would you take the advice of someone who had researched the matter thoroughly over someone who just knew how to drive it so to speak?

[dannybgoode]

As to the semi-arboreal bit there have been several studies that show an unusually high amount of avian prey in their diet for a supposedly terrestrial animal - yes I can find papers if you are interested.

[dannybgoode]

I should note I am not simply being argumentative - for me this hobby is about learning and evolving ones understanding of reptiles and pushing ideas, discussing and debating them.

This is a hugely important and significant area that should be robustly explored from both sides.

[RAD House]

Papers you have read on keeping ball pythons in captivity? Have you ventured to talk to any breeders before forming such a damming opinion of them? I have had the pleasure of interacting with a good amount and have yet to meet one whose biggest concern is not the well being of the animal.

[RAD House]

Just because they eat birds does not in itself mean they are arboreal.

[dannybgoode]

Papers you have read on keeping ball pythons in captivity? Have you ventured to talk to any breeders before forming such a damming opinion of them? I have had the pleasure of interacting with a good amount and have yet to meet one whose biggest concern is not the well being of the animal.

So playing devils advocate here - if a paper were to be produced that demonstrated that keeping balls in racks was detrimental to the well being of the animal how many breeder s would move them out of racks and in to good sized vivs?

As I say - I am willing to push boundaries and explore both sides of the argument. One does not learn without debate and discussion and sometimes that means taking a contrary stance.

I am not out to denigrate or insult...

[RAD House]

For example a large part of a foxes diet is birds as well, but I would not consider them semi-arboreal. Also correct if I am wrong but isn't most of the data collected from a small population of animals that are found in ajungle habitat? It is my understanding that most if not all the morphs were exported out the Savannah habitat in or near Ghana.

[RAD House]

I can only say for certain that I would definitely change my ways, but honestly I highly doubt that will ever happen. Ball pythons have been kept in captivity for more than 50 years, and at no other time have they been bred so prolificly. To be honest most breeders consider the unreliable feeder tag as bull. Both of these advances are largely due to the introduction of rack systems in the hobby.

[Albert Clark]

The reason breeders keep them in racks is convenience and profit IMO. I appreciate I am courting controversy here but I firmly believe all reptiles should be kept in as close to a naturalistic environment as possible and the more papers I read on the subject the more I am of this view.

As I say - I have researched this a lot recently and have spoken to internationally recognised herpetologists on the matter and all of them agree on this.

There is mounting evidence (and I mean peer reviewed scientific evidence) that snakes hugely benefit from enrichment and a proper environment. I am just waiting for a word doc summarising the main papers on this subject and I will share it on here.. Well, actually the reason breeders keep ball pythons in racks is bc it most closely resembles their living conditions and also where they thrive. They reside in termite mounds and rodent burrows essentially a underground existence. It's purely coincidental that it turns out to be convenient whereas it's easy to keep multiple animals in a rack setup. A rack is certainly naturalistic for a ball python. It may not be for a retic or a boa constrictor. Ball pythons get enrichment in a rack system when you give them the proper temperatures and humidity and most definitely the darkness that they prefer. So, I feel that the snakes these herpetologists are referring to are not the ball python.

[dannybgoode]

. Well, actually the reason breeders keep ball pythons in racks is bc it most closely resembles their living conditions and also where they thrive. They reside in termite mounds and rodent burrows essentially a underground existence. It's purely coincidental that it turns out to be convenient whereas it's easy to keep multiple animals in a rack setup. A rack is certainly naturalistic for a ball python. It may not be for a retic or a boa constrictor. Ball pythons get enrichment in a rack system when you give them the proper temperatures and humidity and most definitely the darkness that they prefer. So, I feel that the snakes these herpetologists are referring to are not the ball python.

They most certainly are referring to BP's and the whole living in termite mounds is a myth. They do spend some time in them-absolutely-but they do not live in them all the time.

They have also been shown to thrive on and seek out UV and it is far from natural for them to be in darkness/semi darkness all the time. I can find a paper specifically on uv and it's benefits to bp's.

Unfortunately this hobby has a lot of long standing and ingrained practices that are slowly being proved to be outdated and this, in my opinion, is one of them.

Enrichment is more than heat and humidity-it's having things to explore and investigate and to stimulate. As I say I am just waiting for a synopsis of papers on enrichment for reptiles and I will share it when I have it.

But no-a rack system in no way whatsoever mimics a BP's natural lifestyle. Bear in mind or understanding of reptiles is evolving all the time and husbandry etc will evolve with it.

Apologies to the op for taking this so far off topic. However I do think this is a subject worth exploring and debating so perhaps I'll start a new thread on the matter when I have details of the papers I've mentioned.

[Albert Clark]

They most certainly are referring to BP's and the whole living in termite mounds is a myth. They do spend some time in them-absolutely-but they do not live in them all the time.

They have also been shown to thrive on and seek out UV and it is far from natural for them to be in darkness/semi darkness all the time. I can find a paper specifically on uv and it's benefits to bp's.

Unfortunately this hobby has a lot of long standing and ingrained practices that are slowly being proved to be outdated and this, in my opinion, is one of them.

Enrichment is more than heat and humidity-it's having things to explore and investigate and to stimulate. As I say I am just waiting for a synopsis of papers on enrichment for reptiles and I will share it when I have it.

But no-a rack system in no way whatsoever mimics a BP's natural lifestyle. Bear in mind or understanding of reptiles is evolving all the time and husbandry etc will evolve with it.

Apologies to the op for taking this so far off topic. However I do think this is a subject worth exploring and debating so perhaps I'll start a new thread on the matter when I have details of the papers I've mentioned. 1. It is not a myth that they live in termite mounds , rodent burrows and tight underground areas lying in ambush.. Just read Justin Kobylka's account of the ball python and its existence in his travels to Benin , Ghana , to study the reptile. They are out in the open only when they are leaving one burrow or mound and searching for another to set up camp.
2. When they are in transit and have either defecated in the area they have occupied or shed their skins and feel they may be detected by their prey.
3. The ball python is a ground dwelling species that is at home in the darkness and in tight fitting spaces underground where they can lie in wait for weeks at a time for prey.
4.Enrichment as far as ball pythons is concerned is providing the requirements that mimics and compliments their behavior. Some keepers want to enrich their eyeballing of a snake in the wild but ball pythons are secretive and don't require this. Par for the course for people who think the ball python is a "pet rock".
5. A rack system absolutely mimics a ball python's behavior and existence.
6. Thanks to the OP for bringing up the ball python and stimulating this discussion so keepers can voice their concerns and be heard.

[Albert Clark]

As to the semi-arboreal bit there have been several studies that show an unusually high amount of avian prey in their diet for a supposedly terrestrial animal - yes I can find papers if you are interested. There are birds that dwell on the ground and make their nests on the ground and underground as well. Most birds forage on the ground also and i would think its at that point they can become a target for a ball python.

[Andy_G]

..so a species that curls up into a ball in order to protect it's head and neck when threatened is considered by some to be semi arboreal...interesting.

[RAD House]

They most certainly are referring to BP's and the whole living in termite mounds is a myth. They do spend some time in them-absolutely-but they do not live in them all the time.

They have also been shown to thrive on and seek out UV and it is far from natural for them to be in darkness/semi darkness all the time. I can find a paper specifically on uv and it's benefits to bp's.

Unfortunately this hobby has a lot of long standing and ingrained practices that are slowly being proved to be outdated and this, in my opinion, is one of them.

Enrichment is more than heat and humidity-it's having things to explore and investigate and to stimulate. As I say I am just waiting for a synopsis of papers on enrichment for reptiles and I will share it when I have it.

But no-a rack system in no way whatsoever mimics a BP's natural lifestyle. Bear in mind or understanding of reptiles is evolving all the time and husbandry etc will evolve with it.

Apologies to the op for taking this so far off topic. However I do think this is a subject worth exploring and debating so perhaps I'll start a new thread on the matter when I have details of the papers I've mentioned.

The fact remains that even though you feel you have done your research , it is highly irresponsible to advise someone else test your theories. To change the status quo you need to test them yourself, hopefully not to the detriment of your animals, before suggesting others attempt something different than what is currently proven to work.

[dannybgoode]

The fact remains that even though you feel you have done your research , it is highly irresponsible to advise someone else test your theories. To change the status quo you need to test them yourself, hopefully not to the detriment of your animals, before suggesting others attempt something different than what is currently proven to work.

I'm not asking anyone to test my theories. I like most people are following what others who have significant experience and success with this species have suggested works for it.

You also begun working with this species by following the recommendations and work done by others but on a different tangent to me.

Anyway, as I say I think I've taken this post a long way of topic and for that I apologise.

I will collect some papers together and post them accordingly. People are then free to read these, to listen to what experienced people such as you and Albert have to say and make their minds up accordingly.

I might, having considered all the information chance my stance and you yours, but equally if we continue to agree to differ then that is equally fine as far as I am concerned.

[valkea]

..so a species that curls up into a ball in order to protect it's head and neck when threatened is considered by some to be semi arboreal...interesting.

Hah! Love this comment.

And no worries about going off topic ;) Discussion is always interesting.

Mine are kept in racks. Interestingly enough the male that would refuse live feeders has not missed a single, f/t meal since I acquired him. The cage he was in (arboreal exo) had no branches or anything to encourage climbing. Just a lot of empty space.

Thanks for the comments everyone! Currently drugged up on cold medicine (Why do I always seem to be sick?!) so not much comment on the discussion haha

[valkea]

Also. I bought another one :X

http://imgur.com/a/kTGnC
Banana bumblebee mojave male :D