sand substrate

[akane]

I thought I'd put this here rather than enclosures since it seems particular to these species. I have a rosy and would like anther rosy and a sand boa. Is sand suitable for these species? Any particulars? I saw the various reptile options, there's crushed coral aquarium sand that is calcium carbonate based for cheaper, and I can get fine grain quartz sand for dollars per 50lbs. I use the last one in my fish tanks all the time because it is smoother than some other options making it safer for bottom dwellers and burrowing loaches.

[bigsnakegirl785]

No, sand is not suitable for any reptile commonly kept in captivity. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but they are not commonly kept by any means. There is a sand boa species (the Arabian sand boa) that does live in loose rolling sand, but most species are not built for loose sand, but more of a sandy dirt habitat.

Best substrate to use would be aspen. It holds burrows fairly well without the health risks of sand.

Calcium sand is especially bad for reptiles, as the chemicals used in it can cause them to overdose and become ill or die when ingested and is overly dusty, posing a respiratory risk as well.

[sirtalis]

@bigsnakegirl, really? Natural play sand is an awesome substrate for many snakes and lizards, provided the humidity and temperatures are kept up to par. Now petstore sand is a whole different story haha

[SnoopySnake]

@bigsnakegirl, really? Natural play sand is an awesome substrate for many snakes and lizards, provided the humidity and temperatures are kept up to par. Now petstore sand is a whole different story haha

Play sand alone is not generally a good substrate. Mixed with soil and other substrates its good, but no way would it be acceptable to use alone (for a majority of reptiles-few exceptions) It's still sand.

[dannybgoode]

Pure sand is not a good substrates but not due to the risk of impaction as commonly stated but simply that very few reptiles live on pure sand in the wild so does not particularly mimic any natural environment.

Further it does not hold moisture in and of itself so to keep the humidity up the sand is moistened but this moisture isn't retained in the sand line it is with say orchid bark or ecoearth but rather between the sand granules. If it is overly dampened it becomes wet which is not particularly good for most reptiles.

Finally when dry it does not retain a tunnel or burrow so is not great for most lizards etc that line to burrow and hide.

Many reptiles do however live in environments where sand forms a good proportion of the soil/substrates so if mixed as SS suggests, with other matter then it can make an excellent base to a naturalistic substrate.

And yes, calci-sand is bad...

[bigsnakegirl785]

Actually, impaction is a huge worry, mostly for lizards....many lizards lick things to inspect them, and a lizard licking up sand all day can have it build up over months or even years and die from it. There are a lot of pictures out there with lizards' stomachs full of sand at the time of death. This isn't fake.

Sand also is really bad for causing infections, because it holds in the moisture it's a breeding ground for bacteria, so when a sand grain gets stuck in soft tissue it can irritate the tissue and cause infections. Which can often be deadly.

[sirtalis]

Ok, I may be wrong but I've used plain sand for 5 years with my leopard geckos without fail. If you keep the humidity higher than suggested impaction will not be am issue, the pictures are usually calcium sand impactions just for future reference, yes adding soil is recomended but play sand coupled with a 130 f basking spot and 60% humidity works great for me at least, I pour about 1 liter of water into their enclosure once a week, once it dries out the top layer is virtually a rock, ill post a thread about leopard geckos and sand once I can take some pictures, talk to any experienced reptile keeper and they will tell you that play sand is perfectly fine. If you follow 19 year old caresheets they will tell you otherwise though

[dannybgoode]

Actually, impaction is a huge worry, mostly for lizards....many lizards lick things to inspect them, and a lizard licking up sand all day can have it build up over months or even years and die from it. There are a lot of pictures out there with lizards' stomachs full of sand at the time of death. This isn't fake.

Sand also is really bad for causing infections, because it holds in the moisture it's a breeding ground for bacteria, so when a sand grain gets stuck in soft tissue it can irritate the tissue and cause infections. Which can often be deadly.

No really it isn't.

Loose substrates in and of themselves do not cause impaction-fact. Indeed many wild and captive lizards have been observed purposefully ingesting soil and sand for mineral intake.

Poor husbandry causes impaction when coupled with loose substrates-incorrect temperatures and humidity etc-as this causes issues with digestion. The animals you see have been kept incorrectly in other ways other than the substrate.

I have recently spoken with very experienced keepers on this matter and not one has ever seen impaction caused by the ingestion of substrate alone.

I am not disputing that sand on its own is a good substrate for other reasons but impaction-assuming correct husbandry-is not one of them.

[sirtalis]

Its still being spread around that sand is bad for alot of herps? I thought those days were gone. A healthy and well hydrated animal will pass sand with no problem. Though my substrate for a leo would be much deaper and able to hold burrows for moister. I also agree with offering higher basking temps with the option to use lower if the animal chooses.

I think poison's previous response to one of my other threads is a good explanation, @dannybgoode good points

[dannybgoode]

I think poison's previous response to one of my other threads is a good explanation, @dannybgoode good points

Indeed. I have recently seen photos of a geckos feces that is entirely sand proving they can pass it all other things being equal.

Of course there are questions as to why it felt the need to ingest so much sand but it passed it no issues.

I think it's important to note I don't think anyone is saying that impaction does not occur and/or that if it does happen it's not serious or indeed life threatening-it is.

But, impaction is the symptom and not the cause of wider issues.

[Minkness]

Well said Danny!

[Andy_G]

Impaction is always the secondary cause of death. The initial cause for either the behaviour that caused the excess ingestion of substrate OR caused the hinderance of an animal's ability to pass a normal amount of ingested substrate/roughage is usually parasitic or husbandry related...impaction is the scapegoat of keeper error. Like Danny said. :)

[dannybgoode]

Impaction is always the secondary cause of death. The initial cause for either the behaviour that caused the excess ingestion of substrate OR caused the hinderance of an animal's ability to pass a normal amount of ingested substrate/roughage is usually parasitic or husbandry related...impaction is the scapegoat of keeper error. Like Danny said. :)

/pedant mode engaged/

Actually I'd argue that impaction is the primary cause of death but ingestion of the substrate is a secondary cause of the impaction.

/pedant mode off/

:)

[Minkness]

Lol good point....yet again....lol

[Andy_G]

/pedant mode engaged/

Actually I'd argue that impaction is the primary cause of death but ingestion of the substrate is a secondary cause of the impaction.

/pedant mode off/

:)

That is a bit more clear yet more unclear at the same time...but correct I have to say. :)

[Minkness]

I'm sorry Andy, I don't think you were being clear enough. ;)

[bigsnakegirl785]

Ok, I may be wrong but I've used plain sand for 5 years with my leopard geckos without fail. If you keep the humidity higher than suggested impaction will not be am issue, the pictures are usually calcium sand impactions just for future reference, yes adding soil is recomended but play sand coupled with a 130 f basking spot and 60% humidity works great for me at least, I pour about 1 liter of water into their enclosure once a week, once it dries out the top layer is virtually a rock, ill post a thread about leopard geckos and sand once I can take some pictures, talk to any experienced reptile keeper and they will tell you that play sand is perfectly fine. If you follow 19 year old caresheets they will tell you otherwise though

It can take longer than that for the sand to build up. You're in denial and putting a keepers' reptiles at risk if you think it isn't a problem.

Sand naturally sticks together when wet, sure the chances of impaction are increased with improper care, but that doesn't stop it completely.

Proper husbandry also doesn't stop life-threatening infections when sand gets stuck in their tissues.

No really it isn't.

Loose substrates in and of themselves do not cause impaction-fact. Indeed many wild and captive lizards have been observed purposefully ingesting soil and sand for mineral intake.

Poor husbandry causes impaction when coupled with loose substrates-incorrect temperatures and humidity etc-as this causes issues with digestion. The animals you see have been kept incorrectly in other ways other than the substrate.

I have recently spoken with very experienced keepers on this matter and not one has ever seen impaction caused by the ingestion of substrate alone.

I am not disputing that sand on its own is a good substrate for other reasons but impaction-assuming correct husbandry-is not one of them.

See above.

Why use an expensive, dangerous substrate like sand when:

1) it's easier to maintain that higher humidity on a different substrate

2) there's not only a danger of impaction but of infections from physical damages due to the sand

3) it's extremely unhygienic, especially since a lot of people trying "cleaning" the sand to reuse it

[dannybgoode]

Absolutely 100% categorically not the case BSG. End of.

There is no way I would do anything to put my reptiles health at risk hence why I have investigated this thoroughly and again-sand in and of itself is not dangerous. I am 100% happy that there is zero risk of impaction. 100%. As are many many other keepers.

Poor husbandry when coupled with sand or indeed any loose substrate is a significant issue however and people's animals still suffer from it because they don't do the research and/our do not invest in the proper set up.

Yes there is an argument that because people decide not to provide the right set up then we'd should not encourage them to use such substrates but I'd argue there's an equally strong argument that such people shouldn't keep reptiles full stop.

In the past such substrates were a major issue but simply because the equipment needed to properly support a healthy environment (high powered uv, effective heating etc) was beyond the reach of hobby keepers.

Consequently when loose substrates were used impaction did occur frequently and the blame apportioned on them.

Now decent equipment is available to all and the other husbandry requirements attainable (and much more widely understood) loose substrates do not present any danger and indeed in most cases is preferable to the alternatives.

Wood chips, lino, reptile carpet, tiles, loose slate etc are all appalling substrates for most lizards.

Sand harbours no more bacteria than any other substrates assuming it is properly maintained. The only area where I think it falls down is the way it doesn't hold moisture but I have already addressed that.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Absolutely 100% categorically not the case BSG. End of.

There is no way I would do anything to put my reptiles health at risk hence why I have investigated this thoroughly and again-sand in and of itself is not dangerous. I am 100% happy that there is zero risk of impaction. 100%. As are many many other keepers.

Poor husbandry when coupled with sand or indeed any loose substrate is a significant issue however and people's animals still suffer from it because they don't do the research and/our do not invest in the proper set up.

Yes there is an argument that because people decide not to provide the right set up then we'd should not encourage them to use such substrates but I'd argue there's an equally strong argument that such people shouldn't keep reptiles full stop.

In the past such substrates were a major issue but simply because the equipment needed to properly support a healthy environment (high powered uv, effective heating etc) was beyond the reach of hobby keepers.

Consequently when loose substrates were used impaction did occur frequently and the blame apportioned on them.

Now decent equipment is available to all and the other husbandry requirements attainable (and much more widely understood) loose substrates do not present any danger and indeed in most cases is preferable to the alternatives.

Wood chips, lino, reptile carpet, tiles, loose slate etc are all appalling substrates for most lizards.

Sand harbours no more bacteria than any other substrates assuming it is properly maintained. The only area where I think it falls down is the way it doesn't hold moisture but I have already addressed that.

Seeing as this is a snake we're talking about, that is not my main worry here. If you want to wave your reptile's life then so be it. My main issue being addressed here is it can still cause physical damage, regardless of husbandry. Proper humidity and temperatures doesn't change the fact that tissue has been damaged. Reptiles with stronger immune systems may or may not be able to fight back against bacteria in the wounds, but it's a game of chance.

Sand holds water, water is a breeding ground for bacteria. This is also why it's not so good for humidity, it holds the water without releasing it until goes stagnant.

Again, a sandy mixture with 1/3 or less of sand is best if you insist on using sand. Pure sand, not so good. Very few reptiles live in rolling sand dunes, and are not equipped to deal with ingesting pure sand over a length of time.

[sirtalis]

It can take longer than that for the sand to build up. You're in denial and putting a keepers' reptiles at risk if you think it isn't a problem.

Sand naturally sticks together when wet, sure the chances of impaction are increased with improper care, but that doesn't stop it completely.

Proper husbandry also doesn't stop life-threatening infections when sand gets stuck in their tissues.



See above.

Why use an expensive, dangerous substrate like sand when:

1) it's easier to maintain that higher humidity on a different substrate

2) there's not only a danger of impaction but of infections from physical damages due to the sand

3) it's extremely unhygienic, especially since a lot of people trying "cleaning" the sand to reuse it

actually not at all, the reason being is that a good friend of mine has a 21 year old leopard gecko "spotty" that has lived on sand its entire life, it has a full tail and is almost 12 inches long, I'll have a chance to photograph it on Thursday, it's lived in a semi natural enclosure complete with high basking and plenty of mice in its diet, 1 fuzzy per week, please remind me to share it if I forget :) and I buy play sand for $3.45/50 lbs, one complete substrate change per month so I pay less than $1.50/month on substrate

[bigsnakegirl785]

actually not at all, the reason being is that a good friend of mine has a 21 year old leopard gecko "spotty" that has lived on sand its entire life, it has a full tail and is almost 12 inches long, I'll have a chance to photograph it on Thursday, it's lived in a semi natural enclosure complete with high basking and plenty of mice in its diet, 1 fuzzy per week, please remind me to share it if I forget :) and I buy play sand for $3.45/50 lbs, one complete substrate change per month so I pay less than $1.50/month on substrate

Why is a leopard gecko eating mice? I thought they were insectivorous...

If by seminatural you mean they're in a bioactive that may explain why. Bioactives usually use sand mixtures, and the bedding is a little more compact, so less likely to cause impaction.

[dannybgoode]

I'm talking about a lizard BSG. And you're wrong on this.

I'm not going to repeat everything I've said but to say I'm waving goodbye to my reptiles life is so utterly far from the mark as to almost be offensive when you have no sound basis to do so.

A 30% mix is an arbitrary number that again has no basis on anything I have read. I know many keepers who use 50%+ sand mixes with no adverse affects at all. Further-why is soil OK. Soil has many similar properties and if anything has a greater propensity to clump than sand and can have fine particles that could lodge in a wound and yet is absolutely fine

I also don't see your argument regarding bioactive and the compactness of the substrate. Lizards tunnel and burrow and come across plenty of fine substrate whether the bulk of it is compact or not.

Find me one paper that sand or other loose substrates cause the issues you mention-that is a scientific paper not some photo of a poor impacted animal where we don't know the background story-and I'll happily read it and consider the evidence.

Otherwise perhaps accept sometimes that your wrong on this occasion. As I say a few years ago yes impaction was an issue due to the reasons I have already mentioned but these days it should not be a concern.

[bigsnakegirl785]

You may be talking about lizards, but the topic of this thread and the main object of my worry is not. Lizards were brought up in a response to one of my responses and apparently is the only thing people want to focus on. I'm not paying hundreds of dollars to get access to scientific papers, so you can continue on with your sand defense. I'm done with this debate, as I have already addressed the extent of my knowledge in this thread and it's off topic.

Whether or not it's a husbandry issue I still believe sand is not worth the trouble, because maybe you'll be on vacation for a week or two one time, or the winter weather makes it difficult to maintain those proper humidity levels. If I'm owning a lizard I'm probably not going to be putting it on particulate bedding at all unless I have it on a bioactive substrate that can take care of itself, and I'm not going to have my snakes on sand because all that's doing is tripling or quadrupling my efforts vs. using my usual EcoEarth or aspen.

[akane]

Like I feared this thread blew up into other species. I am talking about rosy and maybe a sand boa in the future. The humidity needs to be low. I'm in Iowa. The humidity of our air before adding a water dish or substrate with any moisture is plenty. I might pull the water dish and only give periodically like some do but that is another set of research. I am also not talking about filling up a tank with a ton of sand and letting it sit for months or for the snake to build tunnels. I mean maybe 2" with a lot of rock structure, someone did mention pvc pipe partially buried, for hiding and crawling on instead of making self burrows. Then strip it out frequently, disinfect, and replace with new. I also am no longer talking about reptile sand due to the clumping but fine grain quartz or "play sand". Play sand here tends to be dirty, nasty stuff I have to rinse and rinse and rinse though. I rarely use it for anything. I use the small grain quartz for my aquariums because it is smaller, more uniform, cleaner, less dusty, and softer against the scaleless bottom feeder fish or inverts than other options. I have not determined yet if calcium based sand is an increase in problems or if it's just the clumping nature again of the versions sold for reptiles. There are other sterile sources for a calcium based sand.

I have read articles and posts by people who have used only sand for a decade or more trying to find what they might be doing differently from those who quote problems. I have also talked to some doing bioactive and will likely go to that in the future. I was just looking for something simple and natural looking to fill in around the rock structures and water dish instead of plain newspaper layers which allow no digging at all or aspen. I also looked into moss and coir blocks but there were complaints of them being dusty and the snakes having to be wiped off when handled because of the low humidity of a rosy or sand boa enclosure. I also came across someone saying it works fine for them so long as they remove the snake for feeding. The prospect of a feeding bin has been brought up to me before.

I thought about just laying natural stone tile and being able to wipe it down and disinfect but the constant mention of their desire to dig is why I wanted to put enough in for her to nose around while I continue researching.

[chairman]

There's no such thing as an idiot-proof substrate. Some substrates are less forgiving than others and sand can present difficulties. The cause of harm/death is always going to be the husbandry as a whole, not one tiny piece. Any experienced keeper that understands the needs and behavior of their captives can successfully raise an animal in any one of a dozen different setups. Some of those setups require much more effort to maintain than others and some can be quite precarious but they can all produce positive outcomes.

My experience with sand is that not all sands are created equal. Most sand must be washed prior to use, the same way you have to wash sand prior to using it for fish in an aquarium. If you don't wash it then the dust can cause respiratory problems, the same respiratory problems that you can have with aspen, overly dry orchid bark, eco earth, etc. Once again, it isn't the substrate that is bad, it is your preparation of the substrate, your maintenance schedule, your monitoring of humidity.

If I wished to keep a Rosie on sand then I'd use a coarse sand for concrete. The particles won't be consistent in size and there will even be tiny pebbles. This kind of sand will more closely match the natural habitat and, most importantly, it isn't loose so it provides good traction for a snake. Snakes hate the lack of body control that they have on loose sand substrates and similar smooth surfaces. The sand also holds humidity and burrows reasonably well though adding soil or eco earth would help.

My understanding of Rosies is that they like to hang out in crevices so placing light weight stacking "stones," maybe even made of foam, would be good. The whole thing would look pretty good too, a coarse natural looking sand with a rock pile on top. Fit in a natural looking water dish and you're good to go.

On the case of the mouse eating leopard gecko on sand, that keeper (if he's who I think he is) is very knowledgeable and has an enclosure/habitat system that is remarkably versatile. He could cohab leopard geckos, crested geckos, and maybe even a frog species or two in one of his enclosures because he offers a ton of space and a huge variety of temperature and humidity ranges for his captives. We're talking a much larger range than normal, the cool sides are much cooler and the hot spots are much hotter. The strategy focuses on giving the animals the options and opportunities to exhibit a full range of their natural behavior. The approach is not for all but it can produce great results.

[akane]

How smooth do particles need to be including differences in sizes?

[Minkness]

To sum it up, sand isn't the best, bit if you put the work and husbandry behind its fine.

Also, a pinky a week for a leo? I am surprised it's not dead from fatty liver disease.

[sirtalis]

@minkness, this gecko is big enough to eat fuzzy mice and once again, fatty liver disease is usually a result of improper care, not what the animal eats. For years people fed savannah monitors only insects because they thought the rodent based diet was the cause of gout/fatty liver disease but it turned out that to monitors were being kept in sup par enclosure, not enough heat and not enough humidity, they could live for quite some time in the desert cages but would eventually die due to improper care, same with many leopard geckos to this day, people keep their temperatures below the optimal temps and humidity much lower than it should, I mean heck they live in burrows in the wild and often humidity underground is over 80%. I talked to my friend and I'm going to try to go to his house to take a few pictures of his gecko if time permits me today. But yes, for a first time reptile keeper I would suggest a "safer" substrate tile or paper towels because keeping the humidity and temps correct may be a bit daunting at first. :)

[sirtalis]

36275

36276Why is a leopard gecko eating mice? I thought they were insectivorous...

If by seminatural you mean they're in a bioactive that may explain why. Bioactives usually use sand mixtures, and the bedding is a little more compact, so less likely to cause impaction.

ok so I got the pictures, this gecko is 21 years old and has lived on sand its entire life. Now that it is a senior it is kept on black sand so help him catch his food easier, note that he has a full tail.

[Minkness]

I can't argue it's age, but getting 1 pinky a WEEK plus how many insects? Looks a bit thin to me. I feed insects twice a week only and my 7 year old is thicker. And what does having a full tail have to do with anything? Just means he hasn't dropped it.

[sirtalis]

I can't argue it's age, but getting 1 pinky a WEEK plus how many insects? Looks a bit thin to me. I feed insects twice a week only and my 7 year old is thicker. And what does having a full tail have to do with anything? Just means he hasn't dropped it.


He's 21, virtually blind and has stopped eating as much now, 3 years ago he was much thicker, and better built, and eatinh regularly. Fuzzy mice are not pinkies haha.
I've been told that stressed geckos drop their tails and I feel if sand was so bad it would have dropped its tail from stress? Please correct me if i'm wrong. And yes, my 5-8 year old female is much more toned than this guy but if you look at a healthy 90 year old human vs a healthy 26 year old human you'll see a big difference.

[Minkness]

You have a point on the age and tone, and I'm sorry, I don't know why I kept saying pinky instead of fuzzy. Still, from the research I did on leo diets, those shouldn't be offered more than once a month. But who am I to argue with a 21 year old leo? Lol

Also, you are kinda wrong on the dropped tail. It's not just 'stress' it is 'immediately impactful stress' such as being grabbed, jerked, pulled by the tail, feeling trapped in an 'omg I'm gunna get eaten!' Kind of panic.

A low level impact stress like poor husbandry will not affect the dropping of a tail in the slightest. So the fact he's 21 and still has a tail just means he's laid back and probably handled correctly. =)

[bigsnakegirl785]

Like I feared this thread blew up into other species. I am talking about rosy and maybe a sand boa in the future. The humidity needs to be low. I'm in Iowa. The humidity of our air before adding a water dish or substrate with any moisture is plenty. I might pull the water dish and only give periodically like some do but that is another set of research. I am also not talking about filling up a tank with a ton of sand and letting it sit for months or for the snake to build tunnels. I mean maybe 2" with a lot of rock structure, someone did mention pvc pipe partially buried, for hiding and crawling on instead of making self burrows. Then strip it out frequently, disinfect, and replace with new. I also am no longer talking about reptile sand due to the clumping but fine grain quartz or "play sand". Play sand here tends to be dirty, nasty stuff I have to rinse and rinse and rinse though. I rarely use it for anything. I use the small grain quartz for my aquariums because it is smaller, more uniform, cleaner, less dusty, and softer against the scaleless bottom feeder fish or inverts than other options. I have not determined yet if calcium based sand is an increase in problems or if it's just the clumping nature again of the versions sold for reptiles. There are other sterile sources for a calcium based sand.

I have read articles and posts by people who have used only sand for a decade or more trying to find what they might be doing differently from those who quote problems. I have also talked to some doing bioactive and will likely go to that in the future. I was just looking for something simple and natural looking to fill in around the rock structures and water dish instead of plain newspaper layers which allow no digging at all or aspen. I also looked into moss and coir blocks but there were complaints of them being dusty and the snakes having to be wiped off when handled because of the low humidity of a rosy or sand boa enclosure. I also came across someone saying it works fine for them so long as they remove the snake for feeding. The prospect of a feeding bin has been brought up to me before.

I thought about just laying natural stone tile and being able to wipe it down and disinfect but the constant mention of their desire to dig is why I wanted to put enough in for her to nose around while I continue researching.

If you're using sand, any and all sources of water need to remain in the enclosure. Even sand boas and rosy boas can become severely dehydrated on sand if you aren't careful. All animals should have constant access to drinking water. It's part of their basic needs, and shouldn't harm them. A water dish really doesn't add all that much humidity. Just be sure to get an untippable dish (splayed at the bottom or heavy enough they can't tip it).

Calcium is toxic. The calcium carbonate used to make it can be deadly when ingested and a respiratory irritant.

I can't argue it's age, but getting 1 pinky a WEEK plus how many insects? Looks a bit thin to me. I feed insects twice a week only and my 7 year old is thicker. And what does having a full tail have to do with anything? Just means he hasn't dropped it.

Yes it's definitely thin but at 21 years it's probably at the end of its life, explaining its less than adequate body tone.

I've also seen plenty of leopard geckos kept in terrible conditions on the verge of death that have not dropped their tails, so I also have little faith in that being a sign of being fine on sand (in and of itself).



Further on my points on sand, is that when sand is advertised in pet stores as this great substrate. "Just get this tank, some sand, a water dish, and this heat lamp and you're set!" 99.99% of keepers will be keeping their reptiles in this way. The margin for error on sand is much greater than it is with aspen, EcoEarth, or cypress mulch (again, this topic is on snakes not lizards so this is where my points are addressed at).

I can wet my EcoEarth and leave for an entire week and not have any danger of my snakes becoming dehydrated or even of their water coming anywhere close to drying out. I've done it several times. At most, I'd have someone double check temps and thermostats to make sure their temps are up to par, but beyond one weekly or twice monthly maintenance I don't have to do anything.

In my aspen set ups, I literally don't do anything. Give them fresh water every other day, and that's it. No spraying, no overly large bowls. My garters are well hydrated and shed perfect every time.

Imo, when a substrate requires extensive knowledge to get right, that substrate is a husbandry error. You "experts" can keep to the sand, but I'd really hesitate advocating it or encouraging it for someone not experienced. The margin for error is very large with sand, and very small with the most common substrates. The most you're looking at is some bad sheds and dehydration with aspen/EE/mulch, that takes very little knowledge to correct. That's all I'm going to say on the subject now. You can keep your sand but be mindful of new keepers and stress all the extra steps they'll need to take. I'm not really convinced it's a husbandry issue but I'll leave it at that.

[sirtalis]

Ok well I think we've both raised good points, for now I'm gonna drop this argument, to the op definitely sorry about the major thread highjack

[sirtalis]

You have a point on the age and tone, and I'm sorry, I don't know why I kept saying pinky instead of fuzzy. Still, from the research I did on leo diets, those shouldn't be offered more than once a month. But who am I to argue with a 21 year old leo? Lol

Also, you are kinda wrong on the dropped tail. It's not just 'stress' it is 'immediately impactful stress' such as being grabbed, jerked, pulled by the tail, feeling trapped in an 'omg I'm gunna get eaten!' Kind of panic.

A low level impact stress like poor husbandry will not affect the dropping of a tail in the slightest. So the fact he's 21 and still has a tail just means he's laid back and probably handled correctly. =)

Well that clears a few things up haha and with the mice, I feed one every other month, so Im not condoning it but if it worked for my friend who am I to argue

[Minkness]

Yeah. He may have had a special case in that his leo had a higher metabolism than most. A small rodent once every month or two isn't bad, and in some cases suggested (if your leos will take them. I have tried, and none of mine are remotely interested). One of those things that are best in moderation. Like wax worms! Super fatty, no nutritional value, and addictive. But not 'bad' wjen used as a treat. =)

[sirtalis]

Yeah. He may have had a special case in that his leo had a higher metabolism than most. A small rodent once every month or two isn't bad, and in some cases suggested (if your leos will take them. I have tried, and none of mine are remotely interested). One of those things that are best in moderation. Like wax worms! Super fatty, no nutritional value, and addictive. But not 'bad' when used as a treat. =)

exactly, and even then, only one of my geckos will eat mice. My other two rarely show interest and honestly there isn't really a point in feeding rodents unless you want bigger geckos. Usually I stick to a 50% roach/crickets, 25% various worms (mealworms/superworms) 12.5% waxworms, earth worms, hornworms, and 12.5% (other) what I have noticed is that after one of my females lays eggs they usually need to put on a bit of weight and mice are good to really boost their weight

[chairman]

How smooth do particles need to be including differences in sizes?

I believe that this is the sand that I have used:

Quikrete 50 lb. All-Purpose Sand 115251 at The Home Depot - Mobile (http://m.homedepot.com/p/Quikrete-50-lb-All-Purpose-Sand-115251/100318450)

The particles don't have to be smooth, being rough is what provides the structure and traction. Size-wise, really the only things to worry about are dust (which is why you wash the sand before using it) and rocks small enough to be swallowed but too large to pass. If you are more tempted to call it gravel than sand then the pieces are too big.

[sirtalis]

I believe that this is the sand that I have used:

Quikrete 50 lb. All-Purpose Sand 115251 at The Home Depot - Mobile (http://m.homedepot.com/p/Quikrete-50-lb-All-Purpose-Sand-115251/100318450)

The particles don't have to be smooth, being rough is what provides the structure and traction. Size-wise, really the only things to worry about are dust (which is why you wash the sand before using it) and rocks small enough to be swallowed but too large to pass. If you are more tempted to call it gravel than sand then the pieces are too big.


That's what I use, on geckos currently and my Kenyan sand boa years back

[akane]

After talking to the bioactive group and reading some desert bioactive enclosures I used 1 part fully composted palm, 2 parts quartz sand, and .25 part crushed coral for larger particles. This is intended to be only a top layer. If I turn it into bioactive it looks like the lower layers need to be richer and moister to keep the insects and microbes alive. I have plans for that if I attempt it. I'm sure some will not agree but this is my opinion based on what my research turned up. I saw recipes up to 70% sand but these did not hold tunnels and some went to adding clay so mine is closer to 60% sand.

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Barairo/DSCN3862_zpslixunitn.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Barairo/DSCN3862_zpslixunitn.jpg.html)

There's a heat lamp pointed at the rock, a UTH still under the right front corner but dunno how much it will help and hides are not finished.
http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u548/takakageri/snake/Barairo/DSCN3867_zpsuhjra2b0.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/takakageri/media/snake/Barairo/DSCN3867_zpsuhjra2b0.jpg.html)

[bigsnakegirl785]

Sounds like a good bedding to me! Good luck with your full bio if/when you go that route. :) Bioactive is something I want to eventually try, but I'm not sure how easy it is.

[chairman]

That looks like a nice sandy soil. Allow the bottom 1/4" to stay moist, not wet, and you should be fine.

[sirtalis]

Looks great man, im sure your boa will enjoy that enclosure

[dannybgoode]

Sounds like a good bedding to me! Good luck with your full bio if/when you go that route. :) Bioactive is something I want to eventually try, but I'm not sure how easy it is.

Bioactive in ams of itself is dead easy. Substrates plus clean up crew and plants = bioactive.

The trickier bit is getting the mix right for a specific species.

I'm going to try it with my boa and carpet but I think I'd struggle on the scale of say a retic.

That said worse case scenario is you have to continue spot cleaning and your plants die. It's very difficult to do ham to your animal so long as you're aware of the basic husbandry requirements which you are.

To the op-looks great. Smashing set up!

[akane]

Bioactive is a bit extra challenging in a desert tank because there aren't many critters that survive being dry. In a desert it also gets cooler and moister the deeper you go so top watering and UTH are the opposite of a natural ecosystem. Maintaining a full bioactive desert gets a little more complicated. I debated if I could just add mealworms to the current setup because you can keep mealworms in totally dry bedding if you just give them something moist like a slice of potato on thin plastic against the substrate and a snake is unlikely to go for a cold, damp potato chunk. I don't have to worry about lizard trying to eat various things. A container of mealworms is about what's left of this month's animal budget already lol

[dannybgoode]

Bioactive is a bit extra challenging in a desert tank because there aren't many critters that survive being dry. In a desert it also gets cooler and moister the deeper you go so top watering and UTH are the opposite of a natural ecosystem. Maintaining a full bioactive desert gets a little more complicated. I debated if I could just add mealworms to the current setup because you can keep mealworms in totally dry bedding if you just give them something moist like a slice of potato on thin plastic against the substrate and a snake is unlikely to go for a cold, damp potato chunk. I don't have to worry about lizard trying to eat various things. A container of mealworms is about what's left of this month's animal budget already lol

That is very true.

What a number of keepers I know do for desert environments is not to go bio but to go naturalistic in terms of substrate and plants where appropriate and then just spot clean.

As for desert tolerant critters yes mealworms are a great choice as are a species of woodlouse but I can't remember which one.

I think for some perverse reason it's the European one but will have to check.

I don't use uth's on any of my setups at the moment. I will for the very small initial viv I put my C. Paulsoni in but she will when fully grown and in her adult viv get some form of radiant heat also.

The top watering is something I'll work on when I get my new vivs. I have seen various articles on how to achieve bottom watering of varying complexities which I may experiment with.

In the meantime I moisten at night so the moisture has chance to permeate down instead of evaporate.

I look forward to seeing how your set up progresses and evolves. I've had great fun doing my T lepidus viv and until I get him his new and final viv I'm entirely happy with what I've achieved. Easier I know as it's not desert but for a first attempt I'm pleased.

I'll be posting photos of it in his thread in the general lizard thread.

[akane]

I thought about just burying a regular small clay pot past a drainage layer so the water would go into the pot and out the bottom hole to the bottom of the tank without spreading in the layer above. It could be left empty or filled with a richer, damper substrate for the insects or a plant. I might start a tiny aloe plant cutting. If 1 hole is too small I could break out the bottom of the pot or plastic pots specifically for orchids have a lot of bottom drainage slits that would spread water even better but potentially too high.

If I put in more layers I was thinking of sandwiching the UTH between 2 slate tiles under the hide to avoid burying it so deep it's useless and prevent digging beyond a certain depth there. Otherwise I have to really increase my heating bulbs. I finally got a heat gun and registered 69F in the coolest spot, 85F under the heat lamp, and 87F in the hide right next to the heat lamp and over the UTH. 75-90F is what I've seen suggested so the heat could expand some as is.