Champagne pricing?

[Eragon3]

I've owned various lizards and snakes but never a BP. I have, however, done extensive research and feel like I really want to get one! So as I'm scrolling through Craigslist I come across a gorgeous snake listed as a Champagne. I'm vaguely familiar with this morph but I was wondering if someone could confirm it as well as tell me what they typically go for. He's listed for 85$

[Minkness]

85$ is a pretty sweet deal on that morph. =)

[Eragon3]

He originally wanted 100$ but came down to 85$. I'm so excited, this guy is stunning

[JellyBean]

Looks like you found yourself a new snake!
Just make sure not to pay in advance... There are many decent folks on Craigslist, but a few shady ones as well :3eyes:

[macandchz]

that is a great price, i'd take the chance and hope you get what you paid for. anxious to see a picture.

[macandchz]

sorry about that! i mis-understood. is that a picture of the one you are getting? did you already get him? he looks real nice!

[Eragon3]

That's the one I'm getting. I've already met with the guy and seen the snake, so I know it's legit. I put down a deposit while I finish setting up for him

[JellyBean]

Congratulations!
Be sure to post new pics when you get him.

[Albert Clark]

Champagnes are a very nice morph but beware they are a morph that has issues. Neurological issues as in a "wobble". Make sure you discuss this with the seller. Many times a wobble can be almost unnoticeable and other times the snake can be a train wreck! He may be trying to unload a problem snake on you. Be careful.

[Minkness]

I had never heard that about champagnes. =(

[Albert Clark]

I had never heard that about champagnes. =(

Yeah Mink, champagnes are problematic! Beautiful morph but like the spider gene is known to suffer with a wobble. Which can be definitely dealt with and usually won't affect the thriving ability of the animal. Certain triggering factors are associated with the presentation.

[Eragon3]

Sorry if it's a stupid question but what is 'wobble' and how will it affect my snake? I've heard it used when talking about the spider gene as you mentioned but never champagnes. Is it a health issue?

[Albert Clark]

Hey Era! Sure, wobble is a term used in the hobby about certain morphs that display shaking, tremors, and or abnormal positioning and muscular contractions as they navigate around the enclosure. They can crawl upside down, sway back and forth, and even corkscrew. It's a neurological issue that is genetic and various individuals have different degrees of severity. Stress and feeding times have been cited as some of the triggering factors.

[Aaron_S]

Champagnes are a very nice morph but beware they are a morph that has issues. Neurological issues as in a "wobble". Make sure you discuss this with the seller. Many times a wobble can be almost unnoticeable and other times the snake can be a train wreck! He may be trying to unload a problem snake on you. Be careful.

Yeah Mink, champagnes are problematic! Beautiful morph but like the spider gene is known to suffer with a wobble. Which can be definitely dealt with and usually won't affect the thriving ability of the animal. Certain triggering factors are associated with the presentation.

I believe this to be misinformation. I am friends with the largest breeder of champagnes in Canada and I've never seen it in one of his animals or has he mentioned it while I've been over.

[Eragon3]

Thank you guys! I pick him up tomorrow with a complete health guarantee. I'll be sure to post pictures

[Albert Clark]

I believe this to be misinformation. I am friends with the largest breeder of champagnes in Canada and I've never seen it in one of his animals or has he mentioned it while I've been over.

This is absolutely true and not misinformation. The facts are taken from OWAL reptiles genetic web page. One that is reputable and known worldwide. You can peruse the info @ www.owalreptiles.com>issues

[Albert Clark]

As a matter of fact champagne X champagne breeding is known to be a lethal combo. Super Champagne is considered lethal. As is Champagne X spider.

[Albert Clark]

Issue
Spider Wobble
Woma Wobble
Hidden Gene Woma Wobble
Champagne Wobble
Super Sable Wobble
Powerball Wobble
Sable x Spider Difficult to hatch, severe wobble
Champagne x Hidden Gene Woma Severe wobble
Champagne x Spider Lethal
Pearl Normally Lethal
Super Champagne Lethal
Desert Female fertility issues
Caramel Albino Kinking and female sub-fertility
Super Cinnamon/Super Black Pastel Duckbill & rare kinking
Super Lesser Platinum/Super Butter Bug eyes
Lesser Platinum x Piedbald Small Eyes
Banana/Coral Glow Males produce weird sex ratios
Homozygous Spider Mysteriously non-existent

Wobble/Neuro: owalreptiles/issues... This info taken from the OWALREPTILES genetic issues page.

[Albert Clark]

Thank you guys! I pick him up tomorrow with a complete health guarantee. I'll be sure to post pictures

That's great Er! I was only putting it out there so you can be forewarned and armed with information that is credible and documented by ball python genetic experts. I hope your guy is fine and you enjoy him for many years to come. Good luck.

[Albert Clark]

This. www.owalreptiles.com>issues

[RAD House]

I am under the impression that while the other genes you listed have been reported to have a wobble it is not nearly as prevalent as in spiders, with the exception of woma. Meaning there are fewer offspring displaying symptoms and to a much lesser degree. That being said you should avoid breeding two morphs connected to the wobble because the offspring are more likely to have a severe wobble not because it lethal, at least in my opinion.

[JellyBean]

Did you get him home yet??
Don't forget the pics :D

[Aaron_S]

This is absolutely true and not misinformation. The facts are taken from OWAL reptiles genetic web page. One that is reputable and known worldwide. You can peruse the info @ www.owalreptiles.com>issues

I stand slightly corrected. I spoke with my friend again he mentioned he's had 2 in his collection with a mild wobble. He's still has bred dozens and dozens of champagnes.

Other people report other things.

As a matter of fact champagne X champagne breeding is known to be a lethal combo. Super Champagne is considered lethal. As is Champagne X spider.

In fact, this came up after one person tried to produce one. My friend again did the breeding and produced a thriving baby. I believe the male has bred too.

I can't find a picture though at this time on the forums. However, since it's one or two babies at this time I wouldn't consider it more than worth looking into further breedings.

I simply don't like that website, or people in general, label genetic defects with only one or two breedings.

[dannybgoode]

I stand slightly corrected...

Is this a first?! ;)

[Minkness]

Lol probably

[Albert Clark]

I simply don't like that website, or people in general, label genetic defects with only one or two breedings.
_______

Reply: There are many more than a just a couple of reported cases of champagne X champagne eggs either never hatching and dying in the egg. It's always better to pair a champagne with a completely different morph. The champagne is a codom gene that goes very well with almost anything besides itself, spider, hgw, woma, sable and super sable and also powerball.

[Albert Clark]

I have NOT done it because I think I know better and i think it is a FAIL. The Champagne does not combo well with several morphs such as HG Woma, Woma, Spider... I think Sable...... I have a bad feeling about it and I am going to avoid it.

I have made enough gimpy HG Woma x HG Woma to know better!!! Excerpted.from Kevin McCurley from NERD...In response to the question of breeding Champagne x champagne...

[Aaron_S]

Is this a first?! ;)

Shh, don't tell anyone. I've got a reputation to uphold.

I simply don't like that website, or people in general, label genetic defects with only one or two breedings.
_______

Reply: There are many more than a just a couple of reported cases of champagne X champagne eggs either never hatching and dying in the egg. It's always better to pair a champagne with a completely different morph. The champagne is a codom gene that goes very well with almost anything besides itself, spider, hgw, woma, sable and super sable and also powerball.

1. It's an incomplete dominant gene, it is not co-dominant.

2. Show me all these breedings. I've followed the ball python world pretty extensively over the past 2 decades. In particular, I've seen many morphs and the documentation of first time breedings. I know super champ was tried a few years ago by one breeder and as soon as it didn't live everyone made up their mind.
Corey Woods then did it (probably the second biggest producer of Champagnes in the world) and he got 1 out of 2 to thrive from only a couple clutches. So it wasn't like he bred everything together.
As I stated, it's not enough to say one way or other, it simply means more information is needed.

I have NOT done it because I think I know better and i think it is a FAIL. The Champagne does not combo well with several morphs such as HG Woma, Woma, Spider... I think Sable...... I have a bad feeling about it and I am going to avoid it.

I have made enough gimpy HG Woma x HG Woma to know better!!! Excerpted.from Kevin McCurley from NERD...In response to the question of breeding Champagne x champagne...

McCurley is a theif, a hack, a liar and not to be very bright. He's been shown to not understand genetics or what he's really doing by actual scientists who deal with genetics as a day job.
I'll given Kevin credit for what he built and some of his business decisions but otherwise he's simply not very bright when it comes to the actual genetics.

He has claimed that two genes got "stuck" together from one breeding. That's not how genetics work.

For record of a liar, he's also the guy that said the only way to make soul suckers is to use HIS "hidden gene lessers" (which were 3 times as much as any regular lesser) which in reality people proved a hidden gene woma bred to any lesser produces soulsuckers. (he also stated it wouldn't reproduce itself but it in fact does)

[Albert Clark]

18 out of 18
DESCRIPTION
We haven't got any description for Champagne

Do you want to write a text? Contact us for more information.
MUTATION
Basic morph
GENETICS
CO-DOMINANT
Champagne
FIRST PRODUCED
2005
EB Noah
Is this information incorrect?
AKA
Puma
RELATED MORPHS
CHAMPAGNE ENCHI GHOST
PASTEL CHAMPAGNE BANANA
CHAMPAGNE MOJAVE HET RED AX...
CHAMPAGNE ENCHI SUPER PASTEL
ACE BALL
GENETIC WIZARD
Use this morph as:

Male
Female
Ball pythons morphs for sale
Alu Racks
Dynasty Reptiles
Xclusive Snakes
Kickballs
RepStylin

[RAD House]

Co dominant is an inaccurate hobby term that is synonymous with incomplete dominant, a genetic term that much better describes the gene behavior. Some say co dominant is short hand for incomplete dominant but that doesn't make much sense.

[Albert Clark]

Codominant traits are described in the science of genetics, which is not a exact science. A example of codominance is the trait of hypomelanism. As when you cross a hypo to a normal you will get 50% hypomelanistic hets and the others will be normals. So we do see it outside of just the hobby. Also it is not inaccurate.

[RAD House]

Co dominance is a genetic term but it is defined as two genes that are both expressed in the offspring. Meaning the offspring have qualities from both parents but do not look the same as either parent. Hence why it is inaccurate as a banana always looks like a banana, not a mix between a normal and a banana. Incomplete dominance is when the dominant allele is only partially expressed in heterozygous form and fully expressed in homozygous form, i.e. the super form. In ball pythons hypo is a recessive gene and not dominant in anyway. I would urge you to do some research on genetics outside of the reptile world.

[Albert Clark]

Your basically not comprehending.....hypomelanism is codominant. I used hypo in its short form for hypomelanism. Please keep your urgings to yourself, thank you.

[RAD House]

I am not understanding because you are not explaining your view well. Hypomelanism, as in Albinism? Albino in ball pythons is also recessive and humans as well I believe. Hypomelanism in what species is codominant? What form of hypomelanism are you referring to? Albanism, luecistic, hypo/ghost? You often seem to struggle with genetics so I offered some good advice. If you can't take a friendly suggestion, all I can say is the internet is no place for you.

[Albert Clark]

This is getting off topic. Thanks for your help in the Champagne morph. Friendly? Haha. Take care.

[Andy_G]

Codominant traits are described in the science of genetics, which is not a exact science. A example of codominance is the trait of hypomelanism. As when you cross a hypo to a normal you will get 50% hypomelanistic hets and the others will be normals. So we do see it outside of just the hobby. Also it is not inaccurate.

...I thought hypo was recessive (but I don't know when it comes to balls) and if that were the case, in the pairing mentioned, all offspring would be 100% het. You don't have hets when it comes to incomplete/co-dominant traits...to truly be a het the trait is carried but not expressed. Those cases where "het" is used in regards to anything that isn't recessive is definitely not scientific but hobbyist nomenclature as far as I know.

[Albert Clark]

...I thought hypo was recessive (but I don't know when it comes to balls) and if that were the case, in the pairing mentioned, all offspring would be 100% het. You don't have hets when it comes to incomplete/co-dominant traits...to truly be a het the trait is carried but not expressed. Those cases where "het" is used in regards to anything that isn't recessive is definitely not scientific but hobbyist nomenclature as far as I know.

Male's
alleles:
H' H
Female's
alleles: H H'H HH
H H'H HH
Figure 1: a male Hypomelanistic Boa Constrictor is crossed with a normal female.
A well-known example of co-dominance is the trait of hypomelanism in the Colombian Boa Constrictor. In the Punnett Square at left (Fig. 1) we cross a male 'Hypo' to a normal female.

Statistically, this cross will produce 50% hypomelanistic specimens. As always, each of the resulting offspring received one allele from each parent. Thus half are heterozygous for hypomelanism (Hypomelanistic, H'H), and half of the offspring are normal (HH). Excerpted from a study guide of mine.

[Andy_G]

Hypomelanism in boa constrictors is actually an incomplete dominant trait, Albert. No such thing as het hypo in boas. In regards to most other species, including ball pythons as far asnI am aware, hypo in those cases would be recessive.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks Andy. NP. I appreciate your courtesy.