Newcomer Looking For Advice

[Ambaryerno]

Hello!

I live in a small apartment, and because my current space and schedule make a cat, dog, or ferrets impractical, have recently been considering getting a snake again. I've had a snake before (ribbon snake), but it's been quite a while and while I'm thinking about it I wanted to get some advice.

First of all, the type of snake I'd be looking at would be a garter, particularly a California Red-sided. I'd really like to do something special for the enclosure, and was recently looking at an article on NEHERP about planted terrariums.

What I'd be looking to do was build something simulating the bank of a stream or creek. I was thinking of using a 55gal that was 2/3 terrestrial, 1/3 water, and I was of two minds of how to arrange it: The first would be to put the water on one end, with the rest being continuous land. Alternately, I was considering having the water roughly in the middle, with land on either side so I could have the warm area on one side of the water, and the cool area on the other. Regardless of which approach I take, I want to give the water a mild current to simulate the stream or creek (there would also be a filter to keep the water clean).

I'd like to make it a planted vivarium with microfauna (springtails, isopods, etc.) to help maintain the enclosure and clean up waste. Really, the idea is to reproduce (within limits and reason) the snake's natural environment, as some of the reading I've done on the subject suggests that a naturalistic environment has a number of health and behavioral benefits for the snake.

The ribbon I had when I was younger had a pretty simple setup. He had his water bowl, a driftwood tree he could climb on and hide under, and a heat rock, so I've never done something of this complexity before. I've got an idea of some of the basics from the NEHERP article but I'm looking for advice that would apply specifically to keeping a garter snake. I'd particularly be looking for advice on how to create the stream/creek in a manner that wouldn't saturate the substrate.

Mice would probably be the main food source since that seems to be how most breeders raise their snakes, but I'd like to periodically offer some variety for engagement. One thing I'd love to be able to do is get a breeding population of rosy reds or another appropriate type of fish in the water part of the enclosure (note that they would be quarantined in a separate tank to weed out illness and parasites before actually being added to the habitat) both to liven it up that end of the tank, and to offer the snake a bit of variety in its diet between mice. At first I considered a crayfish or two for population control and to help keep the water clean, however I was concerned how this would affect the snake since wild garters will eat crayfish, and the claws could be a potential hazard.

Also, has anyone heard of someone successfully captive-breeding frogs as a safe source of snake chow? Some of the reading I've done as preparation for this has suggested that frogs would be the ideal over mice since that's the garter's main prey, if it weren't for the risk of parasites in wild-caught frogs. Captive-bred frogs would solve that problem.

So yeah, this is what I've been thinking about setting up, and could really use some advice on what would work, what wouldn't, and particularly how to go about construction and choice of plants.

Thanks in advance, and any guidance would be much appreciated!

[Ambaryerno]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Aaron_S]

Wow. Quite the undertaking. Interesting and very cool idea though.

Here are my thoughts, ( I haven't done a tank remotely close to this in a decade so take my thoughts with a grain of salt)

1. For the water, if you don't want to saturate the substrate then build in dividers. Plenty of people glue in plexiglass or real glass dividers. Just make them a few inches tall and voila, built in water area with the ability to keep your substrate dry.

2. Most filters will give off a current as they pump the water back out so you should be fine. Fluval has some nice ones for this.

3. Prey items - for a garter, you'd be fine with a variety of prey items like earthworms, mice and fish.

4. Frogs are not the easiest to breed so most people stay away from it but if you can do it it would be fine. I would recommend firebelly toads.

5. You can also look into rough or smooth green snakes. Insectivores, great colour and great display animals.

[Ambaryerno]

Wow. Quite the undertaking. Interesting and very cool idea though.

Here are my thoughts, ( I haven't done a tank remotely close to this in a decade so take my thoughts with a grain of salt)

1. For the water, if you don't want to saturate the substrate then build in dividers. Plenty of people glue in plexiglass or real glass dividers. Just make them a few inches tall and voila, built in water area with the ability to keep your substrate dry.

2. Most filters will give off a current as they pump the water back out so you should be fine. Fluval has some nice ones for this.

3. Prey items - for a garter, you'd be fine with a variety of prey items like earthworms, mice and fish.

4. Frogs are not the easiest to breed so most people stay away from it but if you can do it it would be fine. I would recommend firebelly toads.

5. You can also look into rough or smooth green snakes. Insectivores, great colour and great display animals.

1. I'd thought about putting a divider in, maybe at a slight angle to help give it a sloped bank, so sounds like my idea there was on the right track. The downside I can think of is that the divider would likely be visible where it meets the edge of the tank.

2) I'm guessing the best way to do it would be to run the tubing under the substrate at the bottom of the tank, with the collector at the front, and the powerhead at the back.

3) Any thoughts about setting up a breeding population of minnows in-situ? What about the idea of using a crayfish or two to help keep whatever the snake doesn't eat itself from overpopulating the tank? My concern is the snake trying to eat THEM, as well, and potential injuries from the claws.

4) Aren't firebelly toads toxic?

[bigsnakegirl785]

I don't know anything about bioactive myself, but I would do dividers as Aaron said for the water area.

I would not have the fish living inside the garter's tank, as there would not be enough water to reasonably accommodate them while keeping it appropriate for the garter. Just throw a few in there during feeding time, but keep them in their own dedicated tank if you breed them.

Rosy reds are not an appropriate fish to feed garters, so I'd look into another fish. Guppies are thiaminase-free, and breed readily, so those may be a good option.

For the filter I would make sure however you set it up it causes the least disturbance to the snake. A very sight current in the water is fine, but I would avoid constant vibrations throughout the tank. So make sure if you run tubing under the substrate it doesn't vibrate when you grip it. Vibrations can seriously stress snakes out.

I believe firebelly toads are toxic, yes. Not all garters are equipped to deal with it.

As far as feeding, rodents are a prevalent diet in captivity but not the most appropriate. If your snake will let you, I'd feed a mixture of earthworms (no red wrigglers), fish, and the occasional rodent. As long as you feed a rodent every second or third feeding, you shouldn't need to add any supplements to its diet.

[JellyBean]

Wow! All I have to add is, "pictures please"! (Once it's done, of course)
Good luck with this. You must have a decent size apartment :D

[toddnbecka]

There's a group on facebook dedicated to bioactive setups for various reptiles and amphibians. I'd recommend check them out for helpful ideas, but that sort of setup should be great for a garter snake.
As for the water, it would be much easier to use a large container. Much easier to take out and clean when necessary. You're not really going to be able to keep a breedig population of fish in a snake's enclosure, they'll simply get eaten faster than they can reproduce and grow out.
I've never heard of anyone breeding frogs for feeders, but it should certainly be possible. The pacman frogs seem to breed easily enough and produce large numbers of offspring, I see plenty of those available on reptile and aquarium groups.

[Aaron_S]

2) I'm guessing the best way to do it would be to run the tubing under the substrate at the bottom of the tank, with the collector at the front, and the powerhead at the back.

There's no tubing with a cannister filter. Try that.

3) Any thoughts about setting up a breeding population of minnows in-situ? What about the idea of using a crayfish or two to help keep whatever the snake doesn't eat itself from overpopulating the tank? My concern is the snake trying to eat THEM, as well, and potential injuries from the claws.

It's possible. In the size of enclosure you are thinking about, less likely to occur. You'd need more water space. My friend has a turtle tub and it's mostly water and his guppies breed in there. He has natural plants and the turtles just weren't really fast enough to catch them so the population exploded.

4) Aren't firebelly toads toxic?[/QUOTE] I guess so. I did not know. I only know firebelly toads are easy to keep and breed.

[Ambaryerno]

How much water space do you suspect would be necessary for it to work? I'm pretty limited in how much space I have available so can't go too big on the enclosure. And of course cost is also a factor. I could MAYBE swing a 75 gallon, though that wouldn't increase the amount of water by very much.

I suppose making the enclosure myself could be an alternative for reducing cost, but that's a bit out of my area of expertise.

[Aaron_S]

How much water space do you suspect would be necessary for it to work? I'm pretty limited in how much space I have available so can't go too big on the enclosure. And of course cost is also a factor. I could MAYBE swing a 75 gallon, though that wouldn't increase the amount of water by very much.

I suppose making the enclosure myself could be an alternative for reducing cost, but that's a bit out of my area of expertise.

Personally, I'd suggest guppies and I wouldn't go less than 20 gallons.

I guess you could make the divider taller to the top of the enclosure and then use branches,plants to give the snake the ability to get up there. Essentially a fish tank within a terrarium.

I know you really want a water feature but they aren't easy to design in a stock tank while being practical. Virtually all water features are minimal, for display purposes only or custom made enclosures. For use with an animal it becomes a huge undertaking.

[Ambaryerno]

Heh, never said I was one to take the easy way out. ;-)

Where do you see being the main bottleneck? Water depth or surface area? Was thinking I could squeeze in more water by making a custom tank where the part containing the water feature would actually be deeper than the floor of the rest of the tank.

Maybe use a sheet of clear acrylic in front, with another material for the sides, back, and bottom. I'd kinda have to draw what I'm thinking, tho.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Heh, never said I was one to take the easy way out. ;-)

Where do you see being the main bottleneck? Water depth or surface area? Was thinking I could squeeze in more water by making a custom tank where the part containing the water feature would actually be deeper than the floor of the rest of the tank.

Maybe use a sheet of clear acrylic in front, with another material for the sides, back, and bottom. I'd kinda have to draw what I'm thinking, tho.

You have to make sure you have adequate total volume, it's not just depth or surface area. Not enough water, and the fish will cause the ammonia level to rise to dangerous levels. A filter and conditioners can only do so much.

If you make the fish's tank below the snake's tank, make sure that it's easy for the snake to get in and out of, and not too tiring to navigate. I'm not sure how deep garters are willing to dive, so if the fish are the snake's only source of food, if you make it too deep they may not be able to catch enough fish (assuming they don't dive more than a few inches to a foot). Vary the diet and that should fix that problem, if they will dive all the way to the bottom then it doesn't matter so much. I would still vary the diet, though, variety for these guys are best.

The snake drowning is the main worry I see here, since you'll have to make the pool area much taller than it is wide to provide the breeding fish adequate water volume without taking up too much of the snake's floor space.

A couple fish in the water just long enough to eat won't pose these problems, but you sure do have your work cut out for you trying to actually breed them inside the snake's enclosure. lol

[Ambaryerno]

You have to make sure you have adequate total volume, it's not just depth or surface area. Not enough water, and the fish will cause the ammonia level to rise to dangerous levels. A filter and conditioners can only do so much.

Yeah, I know. Mainly trying to establish which would be the better approach: Go for a larger footprint and shallower water, or make the water deeper. If I make something myself I've got more flexibility. Based on Aaron's post I'd want to be able to allow for at least 20 gallons of water. With a 75 gallon footprint I could do it with a water area measuring some combination of 16 x 18 x 18. Maybe 18" long, 18" wide, and 16" deep. Start with the 21" height of a 75 gallon, allow 12" between the top of the tank and the surface of the water and I'd need to extend the water area about 7" below the bottom. So make a custom tank with a total height of 30". Use a false bottom for the "land" side (supported by, say, PVC tubing supporting the actual bottom) to make up the difference in height.

I really need to sketch this out...

If you make the fish's tank below the snake's tank, make sure that it's easy for the snake to get in and out of, and not too tiring to navigate. I'm not sure how deep garters are willing to dive, so if the fish are the snake's only source of food, if you make it too deep they may not be able to catch enough fish (assuming they don't dive more than a few inches to a foot). Vary the diet and that should fix that problem, if they will dive all the way to the bottom then it doesn't matter so much. I would still vary the diet, though, variety for these guys are best.


The idea would be to simulate the bank of a creek or stream, so the "shoreline" would slope down into the water. Maybe a combination of gravel and larger stones to shape it. That should make it accessible for the snake to get in and out for feeding and soaking.

And I do already intend to vary the diet. Say a mouse once a week or every other week (or better yet frogs if I can find a way to provide them), supplemented by fish, or maybe include some nightcrawlers as part of the microfauna.

The snake drowning is the main worry I see here, since you'll have to make the pool area much taller than it is wide to provide the breeding fish adequate water volume without taking up too much of the snake's floor space.

The thought I'd had was to put a driftwood branch or something in the water both for the snake to use as a perch if it goes into the water to hunt or soak, while doubling as cover for the fish.

[bigsnakegirl785]

You definitely want some depth, so if the 16" is all water, that should be sufficient I'd assume. If you add the shoreline, I assume that the shoreline will be divided from the main bedding by the dividers? The shoreline is definitely a good idea, though, just make sure it doesn't take up too much of the fishs' water volume.

I also wouldn't put the driftwood directly in the water, but if you could find a way to stretch it just above the water and clean out debris as needed, that should work as well. (And possibly water proof the side facing the water so it doesn't mold.)

[chairman]

I've seen a couple of these on aquatics forums. They almost universally involve using pvc pipe (disguised to look natural) to support a plastic grid (like used for 2'x4' fluorescent lights) so the water area can be the whole bottom. Filtration is either external cannisters with overflows or internal cannisters. They usually use foam/concrete to cover the plastic grid and back wall to create a natural looking background. Pothos plants can go on the ground area but dip into the water, they suck a lot of ammonia out of the water. Floating plants like hyacinths also help with bioloads while giving a snake something sturdy to rest on while its in the water. The water volume and hyacinth roots make guppy breeding likely to be successful. The biggest obstacles will be sealing the lid and having a good strategy for weekly or twice weekly water changes, snake poop that ends up in the water will overwhelm the filtration.

You can also get away with adding in a separator and filling the bottom of the entire land area with hyrdo balls (special clay balls). Then you build you land above that. It does reduce water volume and swimming area but can help harbor beneficial bacteria for filtration. I'd still add hyacinths and/or pothos.

Some custom aquaria sites do sell kits for this kind of thing.

[Ambaryerno]

I was definitely considering aquatic plants, and will definitely consider things like those hyacinths (ideally I'd like to use as much as possible that would be native to the environment). I was also thinking about aquatic microfauna as well (like those little freshwater snails). Would the crayfish idea in the OP be too risky IE (snake eating the crayfish, crayfish injuring the snake)?

There was definitely going to be some sort of separator between the land and water area.

[Ambaryerno]

Was just looking at glasscages.com and they have a tank that's 48x24x24. It would be a little shallower than the 16" I was thinking, but I could do 18x24x12 for the water and end up a hair over 22 gallons.

[chairman]

Here's a sample tank of what I've seen. It is way too big for your space but I find it quite inspirational. 1700 gallon stingray river | MonsterFishKeepers.com (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/1700-gallon-stingray-river.399152/)

The only predator in the tank should be the snake. Everything else should be prey. I wouldn't trust a crayfish. Snails would be fine.

[Ambaryerno]

Ok, I think I've got a good idea on how to start (and thanks for the validation that much of what I've planned will work, if be a bit of a challenge). The trickiest part of the setup I think is going to be the filtration for the water feature, and creating the slope into the water from the land area. Ideally I'd do a rather shallow one, but I'm presuming I need to keep as much of the water area the maximum depth as I can.

Still trying to decide what would be the best tank to use for this, whether a wide tank like that 48x24x24 would be sufficient, or if I'd be better off going with something longer like a 135 (with a longer tank I could presumably make the water area shallower, and use a gentler slope into it from the "bank"). I don't have a LOT of floorspace, especially in my living room, though I could probably fit a 135 in my bedroom.

[Ambaryerno]

The longer tank would also better let me use my original plan of having the water area divide the land area in two, so I can use one side of the tank for a warm end, and the other side for the cool end.

*SIGH* Decisions decisions.

[Ambaryerno]

Ok, here's what I'm thinking:

Start with a 135 Wide tank (I'm considering getting glass sheets and assembling it myself to cut the cost of the finished tank in half). 23" from each end I'll put a divider about 9" tall. This would separate out a space with an area of 26x24 for the water feature, which will be filled to 8" deep, and after adding gravel and "shoreline" should make for about 20 gallons of water. There will be 1" between the top of the water and the top of the divider so the water doesn't severely overflow into the substrate when the snake crawls in.

I just need to figure out how to actually construct slope into the water.

[Ambaryerno]

Still in the planning stages. I've actually started writing down materials and cost estimates, and YEESH, this is going to be a FINANCIALLY formidable build, as much as it will be one creatively (looking at over $1000 so far, and bound to climb).

Anyway, I've been looking into the matter of substrate. Most of the references I've found specify about 2-3" for each of the two main layers (Water Table and actual substrate. I'm thinking of using NEHERP v.2 for the latter since that is appropriate for temperate climates). Well, the problem is that brings me up to about 6" deep for the terrestrial areas, however I need the terrain to be at LEAST 9" to be at the appropriate level for the water feature.

I can't make the water much shallower. Anyone have any recommendations? The way I see it I have three options with the configuration I currently have planned:

1) Make the substrate layer deeper to make up the difference.
2) Make the water table layer deeper.
3) Raise the bottom of the tank below the water table somehow.

As an alternative, I wonder if it might be better to reconsider my configuration. As of right now, the water feature is planned to run across the width of the tank, but I wonder if it might be better instead to have it flow along the LENGTH instead (say, have the terrain in back, with the water up front), which could help me shave off a little more depth. It may look better aesthetically, as well.

Thoughts?

[daisymaisy]

Are you still planning on keeping fish in the water part? There are a lot of reasons not to, but I wasn't sure if you were going to stick to that. :) I will just say that maintaining water quality is a real challenge in a viv and I would worry about the snake being affected by poor water quality. But I'm sure there are people who manage it successfully.

If you want ideas on vivs/paludariums, the dart frog people have a lot of great ideas. (Check out the dendroboard forum). The habitats won't be the same, but you can get a lot of ideas on false bottoms and how to construct things. Be advised a piece of glass siliconed in place as a divider very often leaks eventually. You can make some really cool backgrounds out of cork and expanding spray foam though!

Speaking of frogs, African Reed Frogs are really easy to breed. You can get CB ones, and they breed! I've actually been thinking about a frog eating snake (shhhh...don't tell the frog people!) since my original four are at least 15 or so now. They do require a whole set up of their own and might not be very practical but just throwing that out there.

If you want to really do the water part right, you could drill the tank for a drain and a return line and use a canister filter. I would be a bit concerned with a snake and a canister filter though...most of the tubes are big enough for a snake to get stuck in. The intake would need to be REALLY snake proof.

It sounds like a really great build idea and I like how the tank keeps getting bigger!

[Ambaryerno]

Yeah, I'm still planning to keep the fish in the tank with the snake. I was actually considering having a hole drilled in the bottom of the tank at one end for the filter intake, with a hose leading to a canister filter, then another hole drilled in the back of the tank for a return line. I would include a valve on the intake line which I could use for draining water during water changes with less hassle. And yeah, I'd make sure the intake pipe was secured. probably a mesh screen secured over the end.

I originally considered glass dividers, but was wondering if I might be better off using something like the liners you often see for outdoor ponds, though there's a question of whether it can be secured at the front and back ends of the glass.

[Ambaryerno]

Got to talking about this project yesterday with my sister, who does a lot of work with aquariums, and she came up with another option of a smaller tank for the enclosure to keep the footprint manageable, (say a 75 gallon) with a sump tank to provide sufficient water volume for the guppies.

She's actually almost more excited about the possibilities than I am.

[cbgarner2002]

You've got me in a whirling daze of future planning for something like this. :wacky: the creative possibilities are endless, though the same cannot be said for the funds for this guy I'm afraid...

I can't wait to see you begin undertaking this project and do hope you document your journey via photos and updates.