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JellyBean
09-14-16, 10:31 PM
According to our best guess, Bean will be one year old on October 22nd

Maybe his original birthdate is incorrect? He came from a facility that had dozens to choose from, and mistakes can happen.

More important than his age, is health.
Does his growth pattern look healthy?

We brought him home on January 22nd 2016

January 30th: 28g and approx 20 inches (14 wks old?)
April 13th: 35g and 20 inches (25 wks old?)
September 11th: 70g and 25 inches (46 wks old?)

We started feeding pinky mice every 5-7 days.
Switched to peach fuzzy mice once a week

The past 2 feeding we upped to two peach fuzzy mice every 7-10 days (since we have them)

Plan is to switch to either fuzzies or hoppers. (Open to suggestions)

He is extremely friendly, never stressed, and has a beautiful sheen.
We only want the best for him. Let the opinions fly! LOL

Andy_G
09-15-16, 07:16 AM
Your snake is ready for hoppers without a doubt. :)

JellyBean
09-15-16, 07:21 AM
Your snake is ready for hoppers without a doubt. :)

Thanks Andy!

I'm curious to see if this is a normal growth pattern, even if he is small? (Anyone?)

bigsnakegirl785
09-15-16, 08:23 PM
They are born large enough for mouse fuzzies. At 70 grams, he's large enough for hoppers. I bumped my oldest to hoppers when he was 60-65 grams, and about 5-6 months old, I'd had him about 4 months.

Also, wow that is a tiny baby! Most likely when you got him, he wasn't even a month old. All 4 of my BRBs were born over 30 grams, so at 28 grams either he was a very tiny newborn, or he was a little older but wasn't being fed properly and lost some weight.

The weight gain also seems a tad slow, but if you've been feeding pinkies that would explain a lot, pinkies are little more than milk, water, and skin.

I would feed a hopper every 7-10 days myself.

JellyBean
09-16-16, 12:11 AM
Thank you for the info and your honest opinion BigSnakeGirl ;)

So, is it possible for us to "stunt his growth"? :shocked:

Or is it more likely we have a slender, healthy snake, that's about to get bigger & fatter a little faster, once we up him to hoppers?

(Appreciate all the input)

P.S. We will be making a hopper order next week :D

bigsnakegirl785
09-16-16, 01:03 AM
It's certainly possible you've slowed his growth down, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (better slow than fast imo), and he'll eventually catch up. You should definitely see an increase in weight gain and length growth once you up him to hoppers. I would wait to go to small adult mice until hoppers don't leave any bulge and small adults leave a small, reasonable bulge.

I would caution to be slow and steady with how you feed him, even a baby a little behind in growth will be able to grow to normal size given time. If pushed to size too soon, it could seriously cut his life short, so feed him like normal and don't worry about giving him anything "extra."

Considering how tiny he was born, he's not too far behind all considering.

JellyBean
09-16-16, 01:11 AM
Yup & yup!

Obviously we are not fans of over feeding. Not gonna start now. :D

I just hope Bean will know what to do with a hopper when he sees one. :bouncy:

bigsnakegirl785
09-16-16, 01:20 AM
He should! With how long he's been on the smaller meals, it may take him a bit longer to get one down, but he should get one down easily enough, he's certainly large enough. In the meantime, offer him the biggest peach fuzzies you have left for a couple feedings before giving him a hopper, probably easiest to weigh them and separate the heaviest into a separate bag. Just to kinda help him along.

Snakesitter
09-16-16, 02:05 PM
A birth weight of 28 grams is well within the normal range. I believe my long-term window is 28-32, with a few outliers on either side.

As BSG noted, they can take larger prey from birth. In fact, I feed mine either rat pinks or mouse hoppers (in all cases frozen/thawed) right from the start. (Note I also wait until first shed to feed.) The diet so far probably slowed him down...but he will eventually grow to full size anyway.

I would try moving to rat pinks once per week. The reason is that as he grows, he will eventually need larger meals than a single mouse. By the time is an adult, you can either offer a single medium rat...or four to six adult mice (the sale total weight). I'd rather feed once and be done.

Good luck!

bigsnakegirl785
09-16-16, 03:12 PM
A birth weight of 28 grams is well within the normal range. I believe my long-term window is 28-32, with a few outliers on either side.

As BSG noted, they can take larger prey from birth. In fact, I feed mine either rat pinks or mouse hoppers (in all cases frozen/thawed) right from the start. (Note I also wait until first shed to feed.) The diet so far probably slowed him down...but he will eventually grow to full size anyway.

I would try moving to rat pinks once per week. The reason is that as he grows, he will eventually need larger meals than a single mouse. By the time is an adult, you can either offer a single medium rat...or four to six adult mice (the sale total weight). I'd rather feed once and be done.

Good luck!

I did figure it was within normal range, just on the smaller end. Most of the babies I see with their weight listed are 30-36 grams at birth, but I've seen teeny babies a lot - just not with their birth weights.

As long as it switches, starting out with mice would be better. A hopper mouse is more nutritious than a rat pink, and plus you have that milk belly to contend with, which is mostly fat and boas don't metabolize fat well. A mouse that's more developed will also have a higher calcium content, better for a growing snake.

Even if the snake is difficult to switch later, all you need is persistence and they will eventually switch. Switching a bit sooner than weaned rats may make the switch easier, like switched at rat pups (which are about the size of a small or medium adult mouse, or a small jumbo mouse, weaned rats are the size of a large jumbo mouse and get a little bigger than that). They generally have good appetites, so it's likely it shouldn't be hard to switch at all.

JellyBean
09-16-16, 06:23 PM
Gotta love a good debate ;)

Thanks for giving your input, I value your opinions.
I feel a lot better knowing that neither of you feel his growth will be inhibited in the long run. Pheww! :p

I find it interesting that you both speak about 28grams being ok for a birth weight, when we thought he was already 2 months old by then...

I think we'll split the difference.
His "new" birthday is now November 22nd, instead of October 22nd. :D

bigsnakegirl785
09-16-16, 06:41 PM
I'm not so sure I believe a snake can be permanently stunted, so long as the snake receives proper feeding before it dies. I've seen a lot of undersized snakes get up to average size for that species after a few years with a proper feeding regimen, even if they're the size of a hatchling at several years old. Just takes them extra time, if they stay small it's at most just barely short of average range. I do still see those owners still call them undersized just because they're not on the bigger size of average, like a 4'-4.5' bp rather than 5'-6'....(not that 6' is average). Some snakes do also just stay smaller. I have an adult male boa constrictor coming in, and his owners say he's 4'-4.5' and 6 years old. They feed him a lot more than I feed mine, too, he gets a small rat every 2-3 weeks, while I'd feed him every 4-5. My oldest is a year younger and 2'-2.5' longer, but we'll see how big he is when he gets here.

So, in short, I would feed him properly and make sure he's growing and maintaining a good body tone rather than worrying what size he may end up. As long as he's healthy, doesn't matter how fast he grows or how big he gets.

JellyBean
09-16-16, 07:04 PM
So, in short, I would feed him properly and make sure he's growing and maintaining a good body tone rather than worrying what size he may end up. As long as he's healthy, doesn't matter how fast he grows or how big he gets.

My sentiment exactly! :D

Good luck with your new Boa.

bigsnakegirl785
09-17-16, 01:33 AM
My sentiment exactly! :D

Good luck with your new Boa.

Thank you! Right now it's a waiting game as Texas has been in the upper-90's...

And good luck with your's! Watching these guys grow is one of the funnest parts of owning snakes.

Snakesitter
09-19-16, 02:33 PM
I *rarely* see babies at 36 grams. That's huge for a baby rainbow. I can look up my stats of you like, but I've tracked each and every birth weight for at least ten litters....

I agree with you they grow a bit faster on hoppers, and I do feed those every now and then, but I see getting them on rats pre-sale as a benefit to the customer.

And I've seen some *really* stubborn snakes. ;-)

bigsnakegirl785
09-19-16, 03:12 PM
I *rarely* see babies at 36 grams. That's huge for a baby rainbow. I can look up my stats of you like, but I've tracked each and every birth weight for at least ten litters....

I agree with you they grow a bit faster on hoppers, and I do feed those every now and then, but I see getting them on rats pre-sale as a benefit to the customer.

And I've seen some *really* stubborn snakes. ;-)

That would be cool! You don't have to go out of your way if it's too much trouble, though.

I think Sanji was born at 35 or 36 grams (don't have his card anymore and didn't record it on iHerp so he could have been lighter but was definitely over 30 grams), Homura was 32, Morzan was 31, and Guin was 36 grams. I could probably ask Dave to look up Sanji's records, I think he keeps all of them but not sure.

Dave sends cards with all recorded feedings, weights, and sheds since birth. I think it's really cool to know birth weights so I'm thinking of doing the same thing when I start breeding boa constrictors.

lol Me, too, believe me. I have a ball python! Took me 1.5 years to get him switch to f/t. Probably wouldn't have taken so long if I hadn't kept giving in and giving him live, though.

sattva
09-19-16, 05:18 PM
That would be cool! You don't have to go out of your way if it's too much trouble, though.

I think Sanji was born at 35 or 36 grams (don't have his card anymore and didn't record it on iHerp so he could have been lighter but was definitely over 30 grams), Homura was 32, Morzan was 31, and Guin was 36 grams. I could probably ask Dave to look up Sanji's records, I think he keeps all of them but not sure.

Dave sends cards with all recorded feedings, weights, and sheds since birth. I think it's really cool to know birth weights so I'm thinking of doing the same thing when I start breeding boa constrictors.

lol Me, too, believe me. I have a ball python! Took me 1.5 years to get him switch to f/t. Probably wouldn't have taken so long if I hadn't kept giving in and giving him live, though.
I'm going to show my ignorance on the subject here, but is a hopper a living mouse? When I went to the reptile store to get some meals for Crystal, I asked the guy when I should switch her from hoppers to rats... He said now! so I went with a f/t fuzzy rat which she is eating... I never did see a hopper... The word hopper suggest... well they hop? So alive or not?

JellyBean
09-19-16, 05:45 PM
I'm going to show my ignorance on the subject here, but is a hopper a living mouse? When I went to the reptile store to get some meals for Crystal, I asked the guy when I should switch her from hoppers to rats... He said now! so I went with a f/t fuzzy rat which she is eating... I never did see a hopper... The word hopper suggest... well they hop? So alive or not?

*I only feed frozen/thawed ;)

That is logical thinking, but no :o
A "hopper" is a stage (like pinky, fuzzy, hopper, small adult).

I order my mice on-line in bulk, and it is SO much cheaper, even after paying for shipping. Also, the boxes are huge for one price, so I share shipping with my local snake keeping friends.

Check out "rodentpro.com".
Here is an explanation of a hopper from rodentpro:

JellyBean
09-19-16, 05:47 PM
*moderators, how do I make a pic smaller when posting as an attachment? (See ridiculously sized pic above) LOL

Captain837
09-19-16, 05:59 PM
X2 what jellybean said. I have also used rodent pro. It is a savings of about 400.00%. Where I live, large rats are 10.00 each live or frozen. From rodent pro they are 2.00. As stated, to make the most of the savings be sure to fill the shipping box all the way. They even have a calculator to help with that.

bigsnakegirl785
09-19-16, 06:27 PM
I tend to avoid Rodent Pro because there have been at least two zoonotic outbreaks from their facility, killing snakes. They breed some of their stock, and some of their stock is outsourced from unknown places. They're one of the cheapest out there but I wouldn't trust their products in my animals.

I use Big Cheese mainly, but Perfect Prey and Layne Labs are my two back ups.

As JellyBean said, hopper is a stage of development. It's two sizes up from a pinkie mouse. So pinkie -> fuzzy -> hopper -> small/medium adult (some places blend the two together some separate them) -> jumbo adult mouse.

The online prices reaaaaally save you money. I went from spending $500/yr on 3 snake not including the gas for a one-way 45 minute drive, to spending $260-280/yr on 11. Not including any mishaps or increases in prey size. Once everybody are adults, assuming all of the rainbows are eating medium rats, all the boa constrictors eating large rats, the retic eating 1-2 colossal rats, and the garters eating pinkies, I should spend somewhere in the neighborhood of $300/yr on all of them. So not a phenomenal difference. In reality, the boa constrictors would be eating half as many rats and the retic eating nothing online, as I get rabbits for free from my father, so I could spend about the same or less of what I'm spending now, for as long as he gives me rabbits.

sattva
09-19-16, 06:50 PM
Oh i see... Is a size, not that it hops around... I must be luck... I can get small rats for a $1.50 a piece from my local reptile store... I can't do better then that with shipping...

bigsnakegirl785
09-19-16, 07:08 PM
Well, when they're alive they're hopping around, it's the stage right before they're weaned and right after they open their eyes. They literally hop around everywhere, it's adorable. haha But when it comes to snake food it's just a size.

$1.50 isn't bad, the pet store I was buying from was selling small rats at ~$4 a pop. $1.50 was what I was paying per mouse pinkie.

Snakesitter
09-20-16, 01:52 PM
Will do.

I send cards too -- it's a nice touch for sure.

LOL balls are notorious for that behavior. It literally is like trying to feed a pet rock. ;-)

Snakesitter
09-20-16, 01:54 PM
I agree on Rodent Pro...but I've also heard whispers about Big Cheese, so stopped using them. Perfect Prey and Layne Labs are better choices, but also pricier.

chairman
09-21-16, 07:24 AM
This thread had strayed a little off topic, but I want to add that I followed the Rodent Pro BOI thread when the outbreak occurred. At the time I had some feeders from their company in my freezer and young children at home so I was very concerned about the issue. I was not pleased with how they handled the situation. But there was never any mention of snakes dying, or non-employees getting infected, so if you have proof of then please post it on fauna. If not, spreading grossly exaggerated rumors without any shred of BOI quality evidence is just plain irresponsible, regardless of what you feel about the company or the quality of their product.

Snakesitter
09-21-16, 02:05 PM
Here are those stats:

My heaviest litter came in at a stunning 44 grams. My average litter was 31 grams. My lightest litter came in at 28 grams. Excluding the heavy one, the high was 35 and the average 30.

bigsnakegirl785
09-21-16, 05:28 PM
Wow, 44 grams! What a ginormous baby. You don't happen to have pictures of that monstrosity do you? lol

Also chairman, I'm only going off of articles I've read, and the fact they outsource any of their stock is reason enough for me to avoid them.

bigsnakegirl785
09-22-16, 02:12 PM
So I posted this situation on FB hoping to hit a wider audience of experienced keepers for his scale issues, but other than Dave, I've had two people comment and both were giving me advise on changing his feeding to prey items I know he can't keep down. So I'll just stick to this thread. lol I assume babies with regurge issues aren't a common thing overall otherwise they would realize that Morzan isn't 50 grams at 14 months for no reason. It's also so weird to me these two so adamantly pushing me to switch him to rats when mice are more nutritious at this stage, he's just eating abnormally small ones, even with the fact aside he couldn't get a rat pink down.

I'm also currently calling around for a vet, the one I had in mind wasn't in so they've referred me to other vets.

Andy_G
09-22-16, 02:23 PM
BSG...I have ALWAYS observed faster growth rates when starting off with rats or offering properly sized rats as soon as possible. Can I explain why? Not really because adult mice are more nutritious that rat pinkies, fuzzies or pups as you mentioned However, I have observed over the years with multiple species, both boids and colubrids, that snakes will grow much faster when eating rats in comparison to those on similar sized mice. The adults also tended to be larger overall. I am not alone in seeing this and many would state the same observation so don't be surprised to hear it from others in the future (as well as the proposal to switching to rats ASAP). I wish I had compiled data to show, but since I don't have that, my observations must be regarded as purely subjective and taken with a grain of salt. :)

bigsnakegirl785
09-22-16, 02:44 PM
Whoops wrong thread....clearly someone needs more sleep. -.- This was meant for my "BRB scales disappearing and has nothing to do with this thread.

bigsnakegirl785
09-22-16, 02:49 PM
Also, Andy, my experience has been the opposite. My rat-raised boa constrictor was 2'7" at a year. My mouse raised yearling was 3' at a year. She also has a lot more girth despite him being fed a rat fuzzy or pup every 5 days, and she's been fed every 14 days almost the entire time I've had her. I've never raised my BRBs on rats before so no comparison, but that comment was on people telling me to put my rainbow boa on rat pinks, who could barely take a fuzzy mouse. That's where my problems arise from here. He would regurge any rat pink I gave him, he can't even keep down (he can swallow it just regurges it a few days later) a large fuzzy mouse. Rat pinks are twice the size of what I'm feeding him and what he can keep down.

I do also want to point out, I switch to rats at the weaned stage. Once I start breeding, I'll have a wider array of individuals to test the rat vs mouse thing out on but for now I'm sticking to mice as it's easier to control the size, I can avoid the nursing stage sooner, and I can more easily breed mice where I live than rats (although once this litter is done I'll probably stop projects until I can get a breeder mouse rack system set up).

Snakesitter
09-22-16, 08:00 PM
The 44 was the average for the *entire litter*. ;-) Sadly, the three I kept back had issues, and the two girls passed away. I'm still fighting to save the male -- he has regurg issues, but otherwise seems solid.

bigsnakegirl785
09-23-16, 11:00 PM
Geez, sorry to hear that. :/

JellyBean
09-24-16, 10:29 AM
Well, I started this thread on 9-15, and happily, Bean has gained 3 grams and already shed again. Woohoo!! :D

73 grams and counting...