When can I start feeding rats

[bored]

I have a Central American Boa.
It likes to eat two mice at a time and would probably eat more if I offered it.
How soon can I start feeding small rats?

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Its about 30 or so inches long.

https://postimg.org/image/pdeha17nv/

https://postimg.org/image/gb69jgd3x/

[Serpent guru]

A guide to kinda figure out when he needs one size bigger mouse or rat is when u ant seeing a bulge in his or her stomach.so that being stated u want something basically as thick as the thickest part of its body if not a tad bit bigger to where u can see a bulge.i would stick to one mouse thats a perfect size for him once every 5-7days if he's a yearling after a year I would stick to every 7-10days

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I've been feeding one mouse every 7 days, but made a feeding video yesterday so I fed both my Corn and Boa two mice each as a treat, and so I had more content to show on Facebook.

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Even two mice didn't really leave a lump. I've had the boa about 4 months or so, but it was pretty decently sized when I got it. Its about 30 inches or so now.

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My account is too new to post pic's.

[Serpent guru]

Well I mean it will just leave a longer lump if anything.and u don't really want a massive bulge in him when offering a size bigger mouse.but if u can barely see it then u might wanna go up a size.kinda hard to explain how big of a meal u want something noticeable in his stomach but not nothing that looks like a huge freaking lump.

[Serpent guru]

And I think u have to verify stuff with ur email if I'm not mistaking I'm not completely sure if a moderator sees this I'm sure he will tell u how to fix it because when I first got on here I was able to post pictures instantly

[bored]

It think it has something to do with my post count, so at least talking to you I'm getting my post count up haha.

[bored]

I don't know what the magic number is though, as far as how many text post I need to make before I can post pic's.

[Serpent guru]

Um I truly have no idea.i can't really help u with that.ig just wait till a certain time or a moderator See's this

[bigsnakegirl785]

Small rats generally are best for 4'+ boas, if your boa is only 30" it's probably not quite yet ready for rats. Give it another half a foot and I'd start it on weaned rats.

When a boa is 1-1.5+ years you want to start seeing zero bulge. So you want something roughly the girth without being able to tell the snake has eaten right after swallowing. Juices and gas does build up after about 6-8 hours, so at that time you'll probably see a bulge.

No rodent eating snake should be eating more often than every 7 days, and especially not boas.

Birth-1 year: 7-14 days, I personally save 7 days for hatchlings taking their first 2-3 meals, after that I'd move them to 10-14 days

1-3 years: 10-21 days

3+ years: 4-6 weeks, but for a dwarf you should be good going 4 weeks

For your reference, my sunglow is 36"-37" and 300 grams eating a jumbo mouse but should be able to take weaned rats once she puts on a little more size. My ghost is 3.5'-4' and 500 grams and eating weaned rats, and should be going on smalls soon.

Both snakes can easily take the next size up, but just because they can doesn't mean they should. You want to see a small or nonexistent bulge in older snakes, the older they are the more important it is there shouldn't be any bulge.

[Serpent guru]

I'm curious why u only feed 4-6weeks per rat?when over a 3+ year old boa?I feed mine every 7-14days and he is 5-6years old.im not saying ur wrong the way u bring up ur animals just curious

[Minkness]

-bites tongue-

Feeding is always an argument here. =/

[Serpent guru]

Im honestly not trying to make an argument lol just wanna know her point of view on feeding schedule I mean if it works for her then great!!

[dannybgoode]

Boas have very slow metabolisms big also very rarely refuse a meal even if they're not particularly hungry or in need of food. This greed is often mistaken for hunger and consequently boas tend to be overfed. They are ludicrously easy to overfeed as a consequence.

Trouble is they store fat initially around their organs so it's hard to tell they're in potentially poor health. Once they're visibly fat then they're really overweight and it's a lot of work to get them back into shape.

I feed my 16mo CA imperator every 16 days currently-1 large mouse. She's growing great. Slowly but that's the Boa way but she's got that lovely squared off look to her top and sides that a healthy boa should have.

Of course each snake is an individual and yours might prefer a smaller meal more often but certainly an adult boa 4 weeks between feed is the minimum really-maybe three weeks in specific circumstances.

[Serpent guru]

I understand the whole opertunistic hunter deal and all but I don't understand why u slow down as they get older.what because there starting to slow down on growing or?I've fed mine 7-14days all his life and never noticed him being obese.maybe a couple times I missed the 14 day mark by a couple of days with being extremely busy and vacation.i got up to date pictures of him.a close way to see his girth is the"albino boa" post,but he is thicker in person.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I'm curious why u only feed 4-6weeks per rat?when over a 3+ year old boa?I feed mine every 7-14days and he is 5-6years old.im not saying ur wrong the way u bring up ur animals just curious

Because anything more than that is drastically overfeeding. According to Stephen Secor's research, it can take a snake a minimum of 7-18 days to digest a meal, and snakes require additional time in between meals to allow their bodies to return to a resting ("fasting" as he words it) state. An adult boa constrictor does not metabolically need to be eating every 14 days, and it puts great strain on their systems to be doing so.

His research was on pythons, but boas have proved to have far slower metabolisms and a lower threshold for fat metabolizing, so it's even more pertinent here.

I can tell you as an owner who has been feeding their 6.5' boa a large rat every 4-5 weeks and fasting him for 90 days a winter for a good 2.5 years, it is not underfeeding. I also have had many experienced keepers/breeders give me that same advise, which is why I began feeding him in this way in the first place.

Once a boa turns 2 years, its metabolism harshly drops, and continues to drop marginally over the next several years.

[Serpent guru]

Well I honestly have never seen any signs of obesity the past 5-6years with feeding the way.i honestly feel like he's just right and I've had people who owned boa's and ball pythons for 10 and 18years seen him in person and said he's good the way he is.it isn't like he's a breeder male etheir because ik feeding them 2-3weeks does something to there testosterone.

[Serpent guru]

Doctors who think being scrawny say the same thing about not eating at night and eating smaller meals but more.but I eat the way I want and I got friends who do the same.me and them aren't over weight

[bigsnakegirl785]

You're also a mammal, and snakes are reptiles, you cannot compare the two.

You cannot look at a snake and tell it's overweight until it's obese, as danny said, the majority of their fat is stored around their organs, and also in structures called fatty deposits, which are inside a body cavity. It takes a lot of mass for fat to push muscle, bone, and other tissues out enough for you to be able to tell the snake is overweight. (This is why I usually look to the state of the snake's tail after a bowel movement to determine possible body tone.)

Feeding doesn't do anything to their testosterone, cycling their temps and humidity for breeding does. As well as barometric pressure and seasonal lighting, possibly.

Constrictors do not digest in a way any other vertebrate we've discovered yet digests their food.

The snake eats the prey, their body begins ramping up the strength of their stomach acids.

Within a few hours, the snake literally begins making layers and layers of new intestinal tissue, expanding the density by 2-3x its original mass.

Over the course of the next week or two, depending on size of meal and temperatures provided, the meal is digested and moved along the body.

As the food exits the body, the tissues have already begun to literally die and wither away. This process continues for long after the snake has defecated.

It is best to allow them to digest their meal, and let their organs return to a normal state. This isn't happening if you're feeding your boa every 2 weeks, and you are drastically shortening his lifespan, even if he isn't overweight.

[dannybgoode]

And this is why I never feed during the shed cycle as it gives a natural break to feeding and allows the snake's body to reset.

Note I'm not saying feeding during shed is wrong or bad but I see it as an opportunity to rest the digestive system.

Also remember just because x number of people do or say something does not mean it is right. Husbandry moves on and it is up to us as keepers to be aware of the latest research and methods to give our reptiles the best possible care.

For example a few years ago the concept of bioactive vivs would have been dismissed out of hand and there are still those with go with the whole misconception about loose substrates being bad for lizards and who insist bioactive keepers are harming their lizards. Utter rubbish of course but they refuse to research study and learn.

Overfeeding is the same. Yes a few years ago most people would think 4-6 weeks for a boa was way too long between feeds, harmful even but new research etc has proved the opposite. You can choose to learn and even study the research first hand to make a fully informed decision or you can choose to dismiss it completely and stick with the old ways just because that's what you've always done.

[Serpent guru]

Well I'm sure 5-6 years would definitely show signs of him be obese because let's face it that's alot of of mouse's and rats.ill shoot a video of him if u would like to see his structure of his body I got proof so that's what I'm sticking to.so now it's going from obese to shortening the life span even if he isn't obese it just doesn't make any sense to me.i totally understand obesity kills reptiles I get it but I would have noticed it by now I may only have had one snake but i ant new to the reptile world.and it isn't like he's regurtating to where his insides are ripped up because of the lack of tissue.because ik that's a big factor when u have a snake that can't hold food down.look at my pictures theres no sign of obesity so it speaks for itself.

[bored]

Bad camera and a dirty bed I know, but here it is.

https://postimg.org/image/ma9ohfwtn/

https://postimg.org/image/4hkndu5lx/

[Serpent guru]

Ur boa still looks amazing I couldn't imagine how he looks in person sense u don't have the greatest camera :)!

[bigsnakegirl785]

Well I'm sure 5-6 years would definitely show signs of him be obese because let's face it that's alot of of mouse's and rats.ill shoot a video of him if u would like to see his structure of his body I got proof so that's what I'm sticking to.so now it's going from obese to shortening the life span even if he isn't obese it just doesn't make any sense to me.i totally understand obesity kills reptiles I get it but I would have noticed it by now I may only have had one snake but i ant new to the reptile world.and it isn't like he's regurtating to where his insides are ripped up because of the lack of tissue.because ik that's a big factor when u have a snake that can't hold food down.look at my pictures theres no sign of obesity so it speaks for itself.

Idk how many times I can say this but: you cannot always tell visually if a snake is overweight. You would have to get an x-ray of his fat deposits if he looks fit on the outside.

Whether or not he's obese, you're still forcing him to continually build tissue without ever giving his body a break and return to a normal, fasting state. Building so much tissue is very taxing and requires a lot of energy. This is how it's causing strain to his body, and how it's taking years off his life. He doesn't even have to regurge for it to be doing damage. If he starts regurging, it's too late to prevent any damage, or lessen it.

Bad camera and a dirty bed I know, but here it is.

https://postimg.org/image/ma9ohfwtn/

https://postimg.org/image/4hkndu5lx/

Nice boa! Definitely looks a tad heavy in the back, I'd cut down on feeding multiple mice, but he should be fine so long as you take the advice given in this thread.

[Serpent guru]

Well I already called a couple of big time breeders and they feed there boa's about every two weeks on rats now rabbits are 3-4weeks.ig they are more filling or something.i would of noticed it by now5-6years is a long time it's a quarter of his life that's like us saying 20years is nothing us to humans.

[Serpent guru]

Which I am about to start feeding rabbits what's equivalent to around a 360 gram rat some are less I get.he did say with rats it won't hurt to wait a couple days over to weeks here and there.i honestly been feeding him around every 11-12 days but imma just go strictly to every 14 maybe 15-16 if I'm really busy with rats.but i would really like to get rabbits sense there higher protein

[bigsnakegirl785]

Well I already called a couple of big time breeders and they feed there boa's about every two weeks on rats now rabbits are 3-4weeks.ig they are more filling or something.i would of noticed it by now5-6years is a long time it's a quarter of his life that's like us saying 20years is nothing us to humans.so imma just stay doing the way I have sense his whole life there never was any signs.

Ok well you don't have to listen to me, if you think 6 years is a long time for a boa to live then be my guest. Many overfed snakes barely even make it into their teens, if they live even that long, and if 1/3-1/2 of its average potential lifespan is ok to you then it's your snakes. Just don't be suggesting for new owners to do the same as you, as some may want their's to live 20-30+ years. Heard of quite a few snakes living into their 40's or 50's but hey. 6-10 years is pretty good. Sure, many other things like accidents or illness could take them away but at least overfeeding is preventable.

[Serpent guru]

I'm done arguing there's honestly no point because hes healthy in every way and there's never been a sign of obesity and it definitely would of shown by now.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I'm done arguing there's honestly no point because hes healthy in every way and there's never been a sign of obesity and it definitely would of shown by now.

You can keep saying that and continue to ignore the fact you can't look at him and know, but that doesn't change it's irresponsible feeding. As far as arguing, I'm done as well, we've both said our piece.

[Serpent guru]

Whatever makes u sleep better at night. I contacted breeders that have 15+ and 20+ year experience with em

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Where do you recommend taking snakes to get x rayed and how often do you suggest taking them?

[Andy_G]

Whatever makes u sleep better at night. I contacted breeders that have 15+ and 20+ year experience with em

Coming from someone having been in this hobby for all of my life and breeding for all but the first decade of it...minus a year here or there (but i'm only 29 so take my experience as you will) surely one of those well seasoned breeders told you that a male boa...even most females actually...don't ever need to be fed rabbits. It costs you more and it's an unneccessary amount of food for them. That's all I have to add because it looks other aspects of the subject were already discussed here and although I agree that overfeeding adds up and takes years off of an animal's life and I will also agree that overfeeding is RAMPANT in our hobby...I don't want to beat a dead horse here.


Where do you recommend taking snakes to get x rayed and how often do you suggest taking them?

It's completely unnecessary unless you suspect a problem.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Where do you recommend taking snakes to get x rayed and how often do you suggest taking them?

As Andy said, not necessary unless there's a problem. I was just suggesting it to Serpent Guru because of their overfeeding and their belief their feeding habits weren't taking a toll on their snake's health.

They can say all they want about contacting breeders, but I've had just as experienced breeders tell me exactly what I'm telling them now. Experience means little if you've been doing it wrong all those years, so I'm not really impressed with their contacts' assurances.

[Serpent guru]

Ahh ight yeah just curious because of nutritional content sense of bigger rats have more fat on them and would be same weight meal.and I saw a post of urs bsg a while back that u feed urs every two weeks to sense I was looking into the forum alot.i would obviously cut back on the amount of meals being feed if I did to 3-4weeks if rabbits are offered.and I always wondered are rabbits just longer or something that's why when people feed them they give it longer digestion period

[Serpent guru]

Like I don't know what to believe tbh anymore although he has never shown signs which I have pictures proving I have 2 different group of people telling me something different

[Andy_G]

To keep it short and sweet...the bigger the meal, the more work it takes for the body to break down and process that food, and the longer you should allow it to remain at rest after it has done so. When a snake eats, most of it's internal organs actually swell in order to metabolize that food, and the heart does as well to keep up with everything, so it is a more complex process than one might think. Rest from digestion is good. ;)

I can tell you that for males of the same size and age as yours...I would be feeding a medium every 3 weeks or so. I can definitely appreciate that you're looking into things a bit further. Do what works for you.

[Serpent guru]

hes about 6.5-7feet and it really doesn't leave a lump into him I mean it's kinda noticeable but nothing that looks ridiculous.and I mean he does poop every 6-8days 8 being kinda late.and that does give him about 5days sometimes a week between a meal

[bigsnakegirl785]

Ahh ight yeah just curious because of nutritional content sense of bigger rats have more fat on them and would be same weight meal.and I saw a post of urs bsg a while back that u feed urs every two weeks to sense I was looking into the forum alot.i would obviously cut back on the amount of meals being feed if I did to 3-4weeks if rabbits are offered.and I always wondered are rabbits just longer or something that's why when people feed them they give it longer digestion period

I feed my yearlings every 2 weeks, but I feed my 5 year old adult every 4-5 weeks and I fast him 90 days every winter, and my 6 month old is fed every 10 days. Whether the adult gets a rat or a rabbit makes no difference in the amount of time I wait to give him another meal, but I do offer food more often the first couple of meals coming out of a fast. He's been eating every 4-5 weeks for 2.5 years now, so half his life at this time.

If he gets a bigger than average meal, I give him an extra week or two, but since he's hardly growing any it's pretty easy to avoid giving him something too large. I can measure the inches in years rather than weeks. Should still get a good half a foot to a foot longer, too, he grew half a foot in about a year's time, and I haven't measured him recently. He's still growing pretty well considered how overfed he was when he was younger, and how old he is now.

[Serpent guru]

Aye if that's working for you and he's healthy then good job. I did notice ur big boy that's 6.5feet I think u stated before he's pretty and what's been the biggests bci or bcc I think is the redtail abbreviation lol.that actually has been proven not the ones where people be like omg I seen a 40 foot retic lol.and yeah u know what the say snakes never stop growing there whole life so I can't wait in 10years to see my boy and ur boy then to see some of the differences

[bigsnakegirl785]

Aye if that's working for you and he's healthy then good job. I did notice ur big boy that's 6.5feet I think u stated before he's pretty and what's been the biggests bci or bcc I think is the redtail abbreviation lol.that actually has been proven not the ones where people be like omg I seen a 40 foot retic lol.and yeah u know what the say snakes never stop growing there whole life so I can't wait in 10years to see my boy and ur boy then to see some of the differences

Oh there are verified boas much larger than him, but I don't tend to believe any claims of boas over 9', BI or BC. An 8'-9' boa is bigger than most people give them credit for, and I see 8' boas claimed as 12' all the time, heck sometimes even 7' boas. Cloud is only a little over "average" male size, I'm guessing he'll top out at 7'-7.5', I'd be really surprised if he got any bigger than that.

[Andy_G]

I've seen a monster 20(ish) year old female guyanan BCC whose owner claimed it to be 11' years ago. I believed that one...but nothing since! I'd agree that they pretty much all top out at 9'.

[Serpent guru]

Yeah alot I tend to see alot of people exaggerating the length of there boa's like people say they have a 13footer which is a no brainer that's fake lmao..holy crap 11foot that's massive!!!!! yeah i seen about 8footer before at a reptile show was curious on what yen's ever saw.heck I'm fine with the length my boa is now I mean if he gets bigger then so be it haha

[bored]

I tried to look at just how big a small rat is at my local Petco on Friday.
It turns out my local store doesn't even have rat's anymore. They said they haven't had rats since last year.
I dug around on Facebook and found some pics from when I first got my Boa.
https://postimg.org/image/5rc19roj7/
https://postimg.org/image/cdynsd04t/
https://postimg.org/image/9h44uk61f/