calling all herpetoligists~

[ballpython5000]

ok, we all come here becuase we have a big interest in reptiles right? well is anyone here an actual herpetoligist? just wondering if anyone is. that would be great if there were a few.

[BILLP]

I don't know how many herpetoligist there are but there are a ton of people here that have been keeping snakes forever.

[RachelS.]

it's Herpetologist, btw :)

[ballpython5000]

yeah i was questioning that i, oh well, any herpetologists?

[Lizzy001]

lol.....i just keep 1 cornsnake.....lol....NOT ME!

[BWSmith]

First you have to define Herpetologist.
Her`pe*tol"o*gist\, n. One versed in herpetology, or the natural history of reptiles
By that definition, I consider myself a herpetologist.

[ballpython5000]

good call bwsmith. i mean someone who does it for an occupation. actually as a job. im gonna throw out an example we all know. someone like steve erwin. i guess a reptile expert would be a good term also.

[katev17]

Also maybe you could fine tune your question (definitions are so hard to analyze) to has anybody here actually gone to school for a course on Herpetology?

That might be a more specific question.
:D Kate

[BWSmith]

Herpetology degrees are few and far between. Not many schools offer them. Generally i have found that you get a degree in Biology or Zoology and get Herpetology credits through independant study. But there are a few school around that offer a herpetology degree.

[katev17]

Yup that's what I meant, I haven't actually heard of a school that offers a degree in Herpetology, except I know of one in Australia (go figure). I think it's Guelph that has a herpetology course in Ontario... I haven't found any others so far that offer it. You don't have to do it through independent study, though, they offer an actual in-school course with half the year spent on labs I think ... I haven't checked out the course description in a while lol..

Kate

[corr]

Interesting. I always thought herpetology was a recognized field, like being a physician, a plumber, or a mechanic. Either you are one or you're not. Hmmm.

[BWSmith]

Most of the time, it is more of an honorary title.

[LdyDrgn]

Steve Irwin does not have a degree in herpetology, however, Jeff Corwin does. I believe Mark O'Shea also holds a degree, but I am not sure about that.

[Matt]

kate,
ya it is guelph that has the herp course.
I did my degree in zoology there and took the herp course and completed my thesis in herpetology.
As far as i know that is the closest you can get to a herp degree in ontario (there is no specific degree)

[katev17]

Awesome, thanks Matt! I was looking into that... I think my guidance councellor has me planned out for the Wildlife and Habitat Ecology degree, and to take the herp course. How did you find it?

Steve doesn't have the degree, he went to school for herpetology though in western Australia, I think... I don't think it was at the same school that offers the degree though.

Kate

[J_Riley]

There are about 1/2 a dozen or so universities in the US that offer herpetology degrees, you can find a list of them at the center for north american herpetology

http://www.cnah.org/index.asp

Sounds like Matt fits the bill as a herpetologist ;)

[katev17]

Sweet, thanks JRiley!! I'll have to check those out.

Kate

[The_Omen]

Steve Erwin..an expert?!?!?!

Thanks for the great laugh!

[katev17]

:rolleyes: Let's NOT start this debate again.

Kate

[Ritus_Reptile]

hey










<------------------

[paul_le_snake]

from what i know, herpetologists have a scientific background, whereas herpetocultrists keep and breed herps. so if u have a scientific degree and can routinely open up snakes to see what theyve eaten ur an ologist, if uve kept the for 100 years and bred them a million times ur a culturist
cheers
paul

[BWSmith]

But by the same token, scientific background is another vague term. I keep careful nots on activity patters of certain species, I mark where each species is located with exact GPS coordinates, I perform Herpetological Surveys for a government agency, But i dont have my degree.

BTW: I missed the Steve Irwin debate?!?!! Oh well, I got most of it out my system in about a 4 page article on another forum. I still yell at the TV when I see him ;)

[katev17]

There was a huge 4 page debate about it, and I think it's safe to say that the members are 50/50 on this subject, so we don't need to get into it again lol!! It just became annoying. Oh well

Maybe we need to make a >new< definition of a Herpetologist, but I think even doing that would be hard... Oh well!! Cool stuff on the things you do BW, very interesting.

Kate

[J_Riley]

Originally posted by BWSmith
But by the same token, scientific background is another vague term.

If you have a post secondary education and earned a degree in one of the sciences, I (meaning my opinion) consider you to have a scientific background. i.e. you took college level courses from 'experts' in their field, learned some principles and applied them using the scientific method.

There's an organization here in North Carolina called CCARI, the Central Carolina Amphibian and Reptile Initiative (conservation of herps). It's co-ordinated by a biology professor at Davidson College who teaches herpetology classes. He obviously has a scientific background. Any joe blow can call in species sightings if they can answer the questions on the species submission form (details as to location, specifically etc). The Joe Blow in question doesn't have to have a scientific background to do "scientific things".

I'm not trying to take anything away from you Brian, just stating my opinion.

[BWSmith]

No offense taken J. But I have also met many "experts" that didn't know their butt from a hole in the ground. I find it ironic that in a college full of "experts" I was asked to teach a class on venomous species. Granted i have had alot of college, but did not complete my degree due to financial problems. Does that make me less knowledgable? Perhaps. But by the same token, acadamia is a world all to its own which rarely has bearing on real life (I know, Bold statement). I was asked to aid in a study of Northern Water Snakes a couple years ago. The study was to prove that Mercury levels were getting to a critical level in the area. They captured and disected hundreds of the snakes to find no mercury. Not really impressed with the "experts" so far. But of course there are exceptions such as Wolfgang Huster and Dr Bryan Greg Fry to name only 2. I have a great deal of respect for them and what they do. I guess my point is that just because someone has a degree does not qualify them to be called something like a Herpetologist. In my mind, it is a title you earn by contributing vital information in a logical and sound fashion. I do think that we use scientific methods more often than we think though. One example is when I began testing the LaCrosse Snake Proof Boots, I had to look at it very logically. I created a controlled environment, used several species and multiple strike locations. The methods and notes would make any "expert" proud. So much knowledge has been gained from "Joe Blows" making precise observations and taking careful notes. As far as captive husbandry is concerned, probably 90% of information is from "Joe Blows". These people who contribute are the ones i consider herpetologists because they have studied the animal to come up with viable solutions for various situations. Again, historically, the term Herpetologist has been more of an honorary title and there are a couple different definitions. I think that both definitions are viable and i have no more respect for someone with a degree than someone with practical knowledge and non-lab research or observations.

Again just my 3 cents.

This is turning into a good debate. :D

[J_Riley]

Sadly, this is true. There are many, many that are book smart and common sense stupid, I have to work with several every day ;)

And the debate isn't about knowledge, it was scientific background ;) But I agree with most of your comments, except the bold one. The problem is, there's no 'middle men' capable of taking highly focused research (sugar synthesis in cells of E. Obsoleta) and applying it at a 'more general' level, to say that snakes cannot digest the milk in the guts of pinkie rats they eat, or something similar.

I have a biology degree, but by no means do I consider myself to be a biologist or a scientist. Nor do I consider myself to be smarter than those without a degree, unless proven otherwise ;)

I just balk at your last statement. Unless you have a complete control environment set up, someone can always shoot holes in your theory, saying you didn't account for this variable or that one. Lord knows I got ripped by my profs lots of times for stuff like that. Much like the debate Brett and I had on feeding mice versus rats. I don't think anyone currently has the definitive answer on that. There's a big difference in a layman saying I dropped a 50 gallon drum filled with gasoline on a little campfire and it went out, therefore gas puts out fires, know what I mean?

[BWSmith]

You are right, even the most controlled environment, people try to shoot down anything.

Actually, I dont think this debate HAS a definate direction. It started out as a simple question, then went on to symantics, now I have no idea where it is headed. But it an interesting ride:D

[J_Riley]

LOL, I'll agree with that! Science is just wierd - truth = cannot be disproved...

[ballpython5000]

cool looks like i have a very interesting and informative forum going on. bwsmith i suppose by my standards you are a herpetologist. well what i think we need to do is set a definition of a herpetologist. a reference we can use from now on. i did miss that whole steve erwin forum, darn! well i think he is a pretty weird herper, but a good one. after all, he does have a zoo. im not looking for a steve erwin debate. so lets work together to set the definiton for herpetologist! any ideas guys?

[katev17]

lol I'm not going to try to set a definition... it's like trying to define "family" , everybody's situation is different and it's impossible to find one that suits everyone. It's not like defining "table"...!

Yea, I'm going to his zoo in a year, I'll let you know what it's like! :D

Kate

[norman]

what kind of future are you looking at with a herpetology degree? is there lots of stuff out there or is it pretty limited?

pete

[ETET]

Very interesting forum and debate. It looks like herpetologist has two definitions, one is base on academic training vs another base on extensive experience. Personally, I believe both can be herpetologists; its depends on where they are. If you put one in a scientific journal, one with a degree will be mostly referred as a herpetologist; on the other hand in herp community and general public, one with extensive experience should be the one and the one with a degree may be not. My thought is that herpetologist have two streams: one is more academic and another is more on real hands on experience. It really depends on what focus of their work, oh another debate again......


ETET

[marisa]

My thoughts:

If you don't have the degree, you aren't a herpetologist.

Does this mean no degree, know nothing? Of course not. In fact in many cases its the exact opposite as some have mentioned but I don't think anyone should call themselves something they are not. And we as people have decided to make colleges and Universities our way of granting a title to someone and knowing who is credible and has been taught as a such and such. If people just went around calling themselves doctors because they have taken care of injuries in 40,000 people in the last twenty years, then who could we trust? We wouldn't know who is credible, we wouldn't know who had the training at the school or who had an actual degree....that might not matter to some and many would go to anyone who could show the experience, but to many others a degree is a bit of trust. They trust that the school taught this person and the tested them and felt this person was ready for the degree and the priveledge to call themselves "doctor" :) Just MHO

Marisa

[ReptiZone]

I find it is like a nurse and a doctor the 2 work with the same patients but on diffrent levels.A herpetologists has not just a degree but it is a doctor degree. Like a person that works in a old folks home they see all the same thing a doctor may see but can't do all the things doctors do (give injections and so on) if they were not given a paper buy the government saying they can do this.

Us herpecultralist do this thing at our own risks no haserd pay forget haserd pay no pay at all. herpetologists are doctors at this hobby and get payed to do the thing we do doesn't mean we are les knowlegable just that the government may or may not chose to recognise us and if we get hurt it is our own fault but if a herpetologists gets hurt the government takes care of him/her
cause he/she was hurt at work.

Just my littel definetion

Chondro Python:cool:

[BWSmith]

Well, just so we have everything at a glance. Here are the official definitions.

\Her`pe*tol"o*gist\,

n. One versed in herpetology, or the natural history of reptiles.

n : a zoologist who studies reptiles and amphibians


That's it. Those are the definitions. This is definately a good debate, but going by the actual definitions, I have not seen a wrong answer. Everyone is going to have their interpretation.